I think that at this juncture, even the most wide eyed optimist can realize that you can throw dirt on the 2013 Giants team. This thought that they can still hang around because of how putrid the NFC East is, while enticing, is just not going to happen. To even play .500 ball the rest of the way will put them at 5-11.
So with 10 games to go, the Giants should take a step back and look at what they need to do to put themselves in the best position to rebound in 2014. Forget that damn Super Bowl countdown clock that was put in the locker room. That will be up there with Jim Fassel's "sign the shovel" tactic in 2003 that showed a severe disconnect between what the team was really capable of and what the front office/coaches thought they could do.
1) Play the young core who will be considered part of the team's future. I put that emphasis in there because some of the young players on this team are not going to go anywhere in the future (ie- Cordle or Herzlich). Guys I'm specifically referring to:
- Justin Pugh: the playing time he's getting now will be invaluable down the line. He is either going to figure in as a guard or as a tackle opposite Beatty in the future.
- Will Hill: Did he blow his coverage against Marshall last night on one of his TDs? Probably, but he's also a guy who hits like a truck at safety and I'd rather he learn by fire this year and get ready to take over for Rolle next year.
- Prince Amukamara: Prince looks like the next in the line of physical corners the Giants have had along the lines of Mark Haynes, Mark Collins, and Phillippi Sparks. Keep matching him up on the best receiver on the other team and let him continue to develop into one of the best corners in the NFC
- Rueben Randle: Boom or bust with this kid. Randle can be a game breaker, great physical talent. But he's been inconsistent, blew the coverage read last night on the Pick 6, got lucky on the frustration spike that could have been a fumble. However, if Nicks ends up leaving as a free agent, they need him ready to step up. If the Giants can get him to progress the rest of the 10 games, you step back and realize he's only 22 years old.
- Jonathan Hankins: Hankins looks like he's the guy who will end up taking over for Joseph if he decides to bolt in free agency. Only 21 years old, he's been pretty active in the past 2 games he's played. Give him more time on the field and see if they have at least one DT spot locked down for the next 5 years
- Damontre Moore: DaMonster looked good against the Steelers, has shown some flashes, but he keeps getting hurt. It would be a huge boon to go into 2014 and feel that the Giants will have another strong pass rushing DE to pair up with JPP (who I believe is still making his way back from that back injury and now has a knee to go along with it)
- David Wilson: His neck injury is worrisome on many levels, but from a personnel standpoint, the Giants need to know if this guy is going to be who they thought they were getting in the first round. Wilson has an explosiveness and big play ability at running back we haven't seen since Meggett. But the fumbles got him in the dog house. I can only hope that his neck will not keep him out long and we get to see him more involved in the games to find out if RB will be a huge need in 2014. I'm not writing him off yet.
- James Brewer: It's put up or shut up time with this guy. Can he be an NFL offensive lineman or not. Snee is not coming back next year. Boothe is a journeyman. This is his chance to show that he can play at this level and be a starting guard. Unless there is a feeling that he is going to be a risk to Eli's health, I sit Diehl or Boothe and put him out there and see what he can do. The Giants had a talented guy in William Roberts who failed as a tackle and turned into a Pro Bowl guard.
- Marcus Kuhn: On PUP, but if his knee is sound, there is no reason to keep him there. Let him get more experience and see if he can build on what was a promising rookie season before his ACL tear.
2) Trade some veterans: The Giants aren't going anywhere, and tied to point 1 above, some of these vets made more sense before the roof collapsed. The Giants should be sellers here and they actually have some pieces teams would want, specifically on the defensive line
- Shaun Rogers
- Mike Patterson
Will they get a first round pick back? No, they won't get a second day pick either. However, I see no reason to have Rogers and Patterson around at the expense of playing Hankins and (if healthy) Kuhn. Teams are always needing help at DT, I would think the Giants could net a 6th or 7th for these guys...regroup the 7th dealt for Beason.
While trading Tuck might make some sense, particularly if he's blocking Moore at all, I don't see the Giants doing that. I think as captain and for what he's done in the past, they will keep him around to finish out this season.
If Reese really wanted to put a shock into the team, he puts Nicks on the block. I have long said that as Nicks goes, so goes the Giants offense. However, Nicks has been a guy who is always held back from his potential due to injury. To be honest, from what I've seen this year, he seems to be a guy who is making some business decisions on the field looking at his free agency coming up. If the Giants are not going to lock him up long term and will see what happens in the off season (knowing they can tag him), I would put feelers out there to see if anyone would be interested in a trade. Nicks should fetch a pretty decent return, certainly nothing less than a 2nd rounder.
3) See what veterans have anything left in the tank and can they be counted on in 2014. This is pretty self explanatory. But for me, the following guys are putting themselves on film now to see if they should return next year:
- Beason
- Kiwi
- Thomas
- Paysinger
- Jernigan
4) Other than the obvious guys (Eli, Cruz, JPP, etc) All the rest for me can come or go. I think we will see some big name warriors see their final 10 games with the Giants, namely Tuck, Diehl, and Webster.
5) The coaching question. The final piece of the equation. I think the evaluation in the next 10 games will say a great deal if Coughlin is even in consideration to come back or not. Again, my own personal opinion is that Coughlin will retire and had more or less made up his mind before the season. However, lets look at this from the Giants standpoint, and assuming the team doesn't look like they flat out quit (ie- Handley late 1992 and Fassel in 2003). And you must now factor in Coughlin's age to this decision as well. He's 68 years old. The Giants must decide if 2013 is a bump in the road and just one of those years or the sign that this team now needs some major work done on it to get back on track. If the Giants feel that this was just one of those things, and injuries and shit luck got them, then I think Coughlin might well survive this. But again, that's on Mara/Tisch and Reese to decide that this year was a fluke and they will be right in the hunt in 2014. However, if the organization feels that this team really needs a lot of work and a lot of retooling, bringing Coughlin back is a stupid move. Nothing against TC, he has been a great Giant, has brought us 2 Super Bowl championships and has been nothing but class. However, if the transition is so deep and needed, the Giants owe it to the organization and fans to turn the team over to a younger coach who will lead them through the next 5 or so years, through the end of Eli's career. If TC only has one more year in his tank, and the team's fixes will take longer, they have to move on.
To me, they might as well take down that stupid clock. There will not be a playoffs this year, no magical run. This is about 2014 and beyond, and they shouldn't waste the opportunity over the next 10 games to feel good about a 6-10 or 7-9 season if things break right and still miss the playoffs.
When the Giants put an an end to the Gilbride era in a few months, he will be out of professional football.
One of the biggest problems was the Giants couldn't run the ball until last night. Part the offensive line played better. Part Jacobs turned back the clock and played a great game. Part the Bears defensive line was a mess.
However, the Giants confidence is shaken. They are waiting for something bad to happen instead of expecting something good and, of course, they are messing up.
And another part of the issue is that teams have 10 years of tape on Gilbride's system and how to rattle Eli into bad decisions. They showed the stat that he tied Dan Fouts for most INTs in 6 games. Fouts set that record in 1986 (he threw 6 picks against the Giants in Week 2), and to be honest, what plagued that Chargers team is part of the problem here. Fouts was in the Don "Air" Coryell offense going on his 9th (and final year) in San Diego. Teams knew how the offense worked and how to force Fouts into turnovers, and without a good running game (the 1986 Chargers couldn't run the ball worth a damn and collapsed at 4-12.
They will however, trade for the Pauper. See Tampa Bay and even New England willing to take a risk on Talib.
Seems almost backwards. Wouldn't he be more of the problem the worse the record is? And if he had another inconsistent and mediocre 8-8 season, he would ride into the sunset? It's all unacceptable. When it's time, it's time, and it feels an awful lot like that clock Reese put in the locker room was ticking for a different reason.
A fresh start is in order. The old core of this team is turning over, I think it only makes sense to allow the coaching to do the same.
If a new coach were coming in, he's going to want to clean house anyone, and now that we know the house needs to be clean, the scenario is perfectly tee'd up for a new staff. As Matt said, why have TC stick around for that? The hardest part of this would be the public relations.
I would love new young, innovate, aggressive and most importantly flexibly minded coach that will inject new energy into this team that will be open minded enough to adapt systems to players' strengths, and someone who will construct a natural-driven, rhythmic, qb friendly offense for Eli.
Hopefully the Giants can get TC a few memorable wins this season, but with the the pending roster turnover, starting fresh is the appropriate measure.
As always, go Giants!
Back in 1992, when I was a freshman at Boston College, TC was in his 2nd year at BC. The NFL was after him (including the Giants), and he was considering leaving. However, Notre Dame put an ass kicking on BC, beat us 54-7 or something, including Holtz running a fake punt when he was up 38-0 (Holtz was a dick and ND wanted to run it up on the upstart BC team). TC said he made up his mind that day that he was going to come back and beat them the next year, and BC ruined their national championship, beating them at South Bend. Once he did that, he felt like he was clear to go to the pros and ended up in Jacksonville (even though there was no team to coach in 1994).
So I think the competitive fire might be there that he won't want to go out like this. A strong finish by the team, maybe he'll feel better about it and retire However, if this is not a one year/shit happens thing, Mara and Reese will need to make an uncomfortable decision.
Great original post. And I remember that BC-ND game vividly - it was something like 38-35, and it was the left-footed kicker Gordon with the game winning FG, right?
Better luck dangling Nicks in front of someone who is desperate to make the playoffs.
Great original post. And I remember that BC-ND game vividly - it was something like 38-35, and it was the left-footed kicker Gordon with the game winning FG, right?
Yup, David Gordon with the kick, it was a 41 yard flutterball which won the game 41-39. I was a sophomore that year, and I remember a bunch of students climbed the fence at Alumni Stadium, tore down the goal posts and left part of it by Gordon's mod (modular apartments for seniors on campus). I actually taped a bunch of the highlight shows up in Boston afterwards and I found that tape when I started converting the old Giants games for the BBI reviews.
In that game, former Giant TE Pete Mitchell killed the Irish, he had like 11 catches and 150 yards or something. I had compared Myers to Mitchell this offseason...man was I wrong.
The offense is getting old and predictable and you have to be rocket scientist to learn it. Which is why lots of WR's on this team struggle to emerge and there are communication issues between QB and WR/TE. This isn't something new. Been going on since the Plax/Shockey days..
I thin the OL can be patched up pretty quick with draft/FA. Beatty/Boothe/Pugh ids a good young nucleus. Let's see what Brewer has.
I think on defense all that you can. I would not trade any of them. This is the first time since Cofield was around that we have so much depth at DT. That is what's been missing from the defense the last few years. I think letting go BC set the team back in FA and draft picks by keep getting more DT's. Those resources could have been used elsewhere..
I agree with all you said about the guys to get rid of except Rolle. The guy has been great for the team nead he plays multiple positions. Let him continue to gel with Brown, Hill and Mundy. They need to find out what they got in Holsey because he is always injured. They need to let Tuck and Kiwi go. I thought it was a bad idea of resigning him in the first place. They should have shopped him during the draft. I think a few vet FA DE's and in getting one in the draft might be all the need..
But I really do hope that the FO takes a more pessimistic view of this team than some of our better posters do. There's a lot wrong with this squad, and even an O-line transformation won't fix it all. There are multiple units that need to be totally overhauled, in addition to necessary changes to our entire offensive philosophy (and defensive philosophy too, for that matter). It's questionable if TC remains that those changes happen. TC's place in our history is secure, but I'd be damned if I believed the man was flexible and had good judgment in hiring D coordinators.
I think the FO would be much better off seeing this as a two-year project. Two offseasons with talent infusion and one season of adjusting to a totally new coaching regime. Assume Eli has 5 good years left. Spend two of them trying to raise our overall talent level. Take 3 shots with Eli, and then rebuild.
Just a thought
It's not guys a re dogging it and not playing hard. The system just seems to be stale..
I know Tuck is a vet, but apparently he is not teaching JPP because Reese wanted to get Strahan to talk to him. speak volumes.
i don't want the team to become to young without veteren experience and skill. They won 2 SB's with that mix. You gut all your vets and this rebuilding will take more than the 2 years Ash just mention above in his post..
What I'm really interested in seeing is improvement from the draft picks, it's pretty clear we're not getting much after the first round since Ross took over that process.
Fortunately for us, we got a SuperBowl the first year of this CBA before we really felt the squeeze. Next season we'll see a retooled team, probably a team with some free agents on our offensive line.
What if - for instance the Giants go on a two game winning streak now - and the cowboys, eagles and skins are all respectively 2-1 to game 8 -
I think the Giants will still be in the mix and on the upswing at that point - that would be a whole different calculus.
Now if they go 0-2 and are 0-8 at the bye and either the Eagles of Cowboys go 3-0 over their next three games and widen the gap to 5 games - then I would agree that then it becomes time to start the 2014 plan.
There is no way the Giants start that process till the bye - and there is no way of knowing what will happen till whatever is going to happen to the bye unfolds.
There is no way you make the assessment right now that this team is done - there was some very good football mixed with some bad errors made last night. I refuse to believe that Eli is not what we think he is - one of the greatest Giant QBs ever to play the game - and that he is surrounded by great skill players. As such, in my opinion, the Giants could go either of four ways right now:
1- they could go on a hot streak to finish out the season - and there certainly was evidence that they still can play last night -
2 - they could go on a maudlin tail spin and keep losing with freak errors in every game that derail them
3 - they could seesaw - win lose - win win lose lose - to a 500 record for the rest of the season
4 - they could gasp gasp keep losing and win a couple of games against teams even more pathetic then they are …
Any of these four scenarios is a real believable possibility. To say the season is over right now is just a ridiculous proposition, and a rush to judgment - you have to take the state of the NFC East into the equation as well as the ability of the Giants from here in - so we still need just a little bit more information to come to that kind of conclusion.
If yo believe the the Giants could have won last night - in a game that most of us had written off - then you are conceding that there is still a possibility that the Giants can go on a run.
I believe!
This statement was authorized by gidiefor..
Go Giants!!!
d@mned 60 second lag - curse you!
Seems almost backwards. Wouldn't he be more of the problem the worse the record is? And if he had another inconsistent and mediocre 8-8 season, he would ride into the sunset? It's all unacceptable. When it's time, it's time, and it feels an awful lot like that clock Reese put in the locker room was ticking for a different reason.
A fresh start is in order. The old core of this team is turning over, I think it only makes sense to allow the coaching to do the same.
If a new coach were coming in, he's going to want to clean house anyone, and now that we know the house needs to be clean, the scenario is perfectly tee'd up for a new staff. As Matt said, why have TC stick around for that? The hardest part of this would be the public relations.
I would love new young, innovate, aggressive and most importantly flexibly minded coach that will inject new energy into this team that will be open minded enough to adapt systems to players' strengths, and someone who will construct a natural-driven, rhythmic, qb friendly offense for Eli.
Hopefully the Giants can get TC a few memorable wins this season, but with the the pending roster turnover, starting fresh is the appropriate measure.
As always, go Giants!
OUTSTANDING post by GiantTuff1.
And I also recognize, this wasn't something that has just occurred. This has been building since last year. They were 6-2 at the halfway point, after beating Dallas (and doing so after blowing a 23-0 lead, mind you). Since that game, the Giants are 3-11. In most of those losses the Giants have been blown out. And one of those wins was against an Eagle team in the season finale who mailed it in completely knowing it was Reid's last game and they would be looking for new jobs.
So can they get hot? I suppose anything is possible. The Giants dismantled a very good Packer team last year and put 50+ points on the Saints. But there are just too many flaws on this team. Too many things go wrong. And they look like a team that is waiting for the big mistake because that's the one thing we've seen them do consistently, screw up and turn the ball over. They haven't played a really clean game, all phases since that Packers game a year ago.
As Coughlin's mentor, Parcells, always said. You are what your record says you are.
I can't lump any of last season's games effect my viewpoint. That's a reach because this years team is a very different team than it was last year - there is no real comparison that can be made - the center of the defensive line is completely different - the LB corps are different, and so is the backfield. It looked like Beason might make a real difference to the LBs. The one true weakness - the offensive line was able to protect Eli enough to deliver 2 come from behind TDs, and looked like it was going to get the third till the turnover.
I can't fault Eli for trying to make that last turnover play to Meyers - I think you kind of have to shrug your shoulders there- that play was probably off by an inch or two. How many big time third down conversions did they make last night? They showed real grit.
This is definitely not a team that's giving up!
Coughlin will have to be forced out, which I could see happening if he isn't willing to make changes imposed on him. If John Mara is a man of his word, substantial changes will be made this offseason. I'm still not sure what I want yet.
All things considered though, I think the Giants will begin to explore their future upon losing their 9th game. In light of the NFC East woes, this division could be won by an 8-8 team. Even wild card teams have entered with 8-8 records, so until we have hung our heads the ninth time, I think the Giants are still in this thing... while hoping that all AFC teams out play NFC match-ups and obviously, routing for the NFC East teams to lose.
Truth: GIANTS END THIS YEAR WITH A BETTER RECORD THAN WASHINGTON. Giants have a better chance of winning the division than they do.
I recall a PFW article about 15 years ago that discussed that topic and concluded that most teams do alternate between the two types of head coach. I wonder how successful that practice is.
These are full time, highly compensated professionals in the big leagues. It's their full-time job to analyze the opposition. So, for nine years, they had no idea how to "rattle" Eli Manning (he threw for 3900 yards, 26 td with 15 picks and 19 sacks last year) only to suddenly unlock the secret this season? Please.
LG, talk to me when he gets to the big leagues. Until then, he's a pre-med major commenting on what a surgeon with 30 years experience and hundreds of operations is doing while hating the surgeon. Don't be so gullible.
Exactly
Quote:
that if he goes 0-16 he will have a chance to come back and "not go out that way".
Seems almost backwards. Wouldn't he be more of the problem the worse the record is? And if he had another inconsistent and mediocre 8-8 season, he would ride into the sunset? It's all unacceptable. When it's time, it's time, and it feels an awful lot like that clock Reese put in the locker room was ticking for a different reason.
A fresh start is in order. The old core of this team is turning over, I think it only makes sense to allow the coaching to do the same.
If a new coach were coming in, he's going to want to clean house anyone, and now that we know the house needs to be clean, the scenario is perfectly tee'd up for a new staff. As Matt said, why have TC stick around for that? The hardest part of this would be the public relations.
I would love new young, innovate, aggressive and most importantly flexibly minded coach that will inject new energy into this team that will be open minded enough to adapt systems to players' strengths, and someone who will construct a natural-driven, rhythmic, qb friendly offense for Eli.
Hopefully the Giants can get TC a few memorable wins this season, but with the the pending roster turnover, starting fresh is the appropriate measure.
As always, go Giants!
OUTSTANDING post by GiantTuff1.
Perfect!
What kind of message would it give to players - on the team & possibly in the future - if the owners, GM &/or coaches decide to go into "evaluate talent for the future mode" rather than to play the best players & put them in the best position to win every game? We're just quitters & give up at the 1st sign of adversity? You outplayed the other guy in practice & know your assignments better, but we're gonna play the other guy regardless to see what he could do for us in the future? I'm sure that will not help the players' attitudes, make them play better & give the team a chance to be successful. That will not get ticket holders who spent a shitload on those tickets to spend even more $ going to the games knowing that the team's priority isn't to win.
What is left to gain this year is winning as many games as the team can. Fans constantly scream about players quitting, but then hope that management does so just in order to evaluate players or to get a better draft pick. That's well beyond hypocritical.
Obviously, Rickey was leveraging that negotiation, but the point remains here. This current group has lost 6 straight, and going back to last year, with more or less the same case, lost 11 of 14 games. If the Giants are going to finish in last place, I'd rather get to know what we have on this team and focus on guys who are here in the future, such as Hankins or Moore. I'm not saying to throw every young guy out there and turn it into the pre-season. But by the same token, I'd rather get Moore on the field in situations instead of say, Tuck and see what Moore can do.
To be in the conversation for a playoff spot, in this bad division, they need to finish 8-8 or 9-7. Meaning they would have to play .800 or .900 ball the rest of the way over the course of 10 games. Through 6 games, only 6 teams are doing that (Pats, Broncos, Chiefs, Colts, Saints, and Seahawks), and the Giants would need to sustain that pace for the rest of the season. That's realty. And we've seen nothing to give any indication this is even remotely possible.
You and I would as diehards and it would appear that many diehards are the ones who go to the pre-season games to watch the squad take form with the in and out use of some 90 players..But most fans are NOT like us, so how do you explain to the working guy who wants to see an original product, that you're playing the young kids for the future and if you win, you win, if you don't, you don't? How do you rationalize that to the average fans who have laid out big bucks?
It's easy for me as a diehard to love watching the young ones get valued PT in a lost season..It's also FREE for me, save for the Sunday Ticket expense which many of us get at a nice reduced rate..Even your CASUAL FAN might not object too much if all they're doing is watching for free at home or at a bar..
Anywho, this is the dilemma for an owner and those making a living trying to coach the players they trust the most to carry out their plans..
But what I'm advocating isn't something even the casual fan would notice. They would notice benching Cruz for say Jernigan or Murphy. And the obvious extreme of Nassib for Eli.
I'd rather see Moore on the field for an extra series or set of plays instead of Tuck or Kiwi. Hankins instead of Rogers. Hill instead of Mundy. That type of thing. And since the product is already winless, it's not like they are pulling the rug out.
In 2004, the Giants were 5-4, still in the hunt when they switched Warner for Eli. Granted, we all knew that they had to hand off the reigns to Eli at some point, but that decision essentially sunk the 2004 season for the greater good thereafter to get Eli more experience and begin the Giants playoff and Super Bowl runs.
And I also recognize, this wasn't something that has just occurred. This has been building since last year. They were 6-2 at the halfway point, after beating Dallas (and doing so after blowing a 23-0 lead, mind you). Since that game, the Giants are 3-11. In most of those losses the Giants have been blown out. And one of those wins was against an Eagle team in the season finale who mailed it in completely knowing it was Reid's last game and they would be looking for new jobs.
This is the reason that I think it's time for TC to go. He's being tuned out. I think the 'maybe it was just a fluke' season started midway last season, and at the end they decided to make one more run with TC and the vet core. Now, it turns out it wasn't a fluke at all and rebuilding is necessary.
If you're going to rebuild, you should do it with a new coach at the helm, reset the clock and give him 5 years to get something done, and if it doesn't work, time to start over again but with a new QB at the helm as well as everyone else.
In comment 11272286 AcidTest said:
I'd fire Coughlin. He's ultimately responsible for this mess, and refusing to play younger players over aging, injured, veterans. At a minimum, Gilbride and Fewell have to go. I'd also insist that Reese take over TOTAL control of player acquisition. He makes all the picks (not Ross after the first round), with little input from Coughlin.
PLEASE provide me with a source for the bold statement that Reese allowed Ross to make the draft decisions after the first round. I really want to see that because, if it is even 1% true, then Reese HAS to be fired ... and fired now. I suspect, however, that it isn't even 1% true - but I'll wait to see a source (I just spent 30 minutes searching on Google and couldn't find any validation - but I can't believe you or any regular poster would just make something up out of thin air)