Fire everybody: Reese, Ross, Coughlin, Gilbride, Fewell, and all the coaches.
Get a completely fresh start.
When a good team suffers a collapse the tendency is to stay with the guys who made you good in the first place. Sounds reasonable. But it usually does not work.
If you fire the coordinators, then you are hamstringing Coughlin, forcing him to work with completely new guys instead of guys he is comfortable with. If you fire Coughlin, it leads to a myriad of problems that have been well detailed on BBI the last few days.
If you fire Reese, and hire a top, new GM, he is going to want his own guys, including coaches.
The NY Giants is probably the best job in the league. Primo market. History of success. No interfering owners like you have in some of the other top places, such as Dallas and Washington. There are a lot of quality GMs, personnel guys and coaches who would come here to work with a franchise QB and brand new management team.
People who work together for a long time develop dysfunctionalities as a group. This has been documented in numerous organizational studies. Giants look like they may have reached that point. Best solution is not to try and fix the problems piecemeal but to do it wholesale. Fire 'em all.
We were in the playoff hunt in EVERY season Reese has been a GM. Yes this season is a disaster. So he deserves a chance to right the ship.
I expect Coughlin to retire, and Gilbride, Quinn, and Fewell to all be let go.
Now as far as hirings, I dont even want to speculate, but Id be a fan of Jason Garrett as a OC candidate if he is fired from Dallas.
I expect TC to come back. If he does then what? Make him fire both coordinators?
wont be resgined.
Outside the Dallas game, I havent had to omany gripes agout KG. His system cant work with this shit OLine. So, yes I expect him to be replaced, but if they draft or sign OLineman in the offseason - he may stay.
I would just love Jason Garrett, a NJ boy/grad coming back in charge of this offense. As a HC, he is meh... but he may see an opportunity to replace TC whenever he does retire.
There is very little separating coaches in the NFL.
TC and the staff have accomplished it all. The current roster lacks
enough outstanding players . We need the best players in all positions.
It's the smartest move. Reese's cap management could be reason enough. OL the lack of success at the higher end of the draft. Etc
TC is a great HOF level coach but it just seems this team collapses and gives up too often. Pointing out the SB years is fine but ignoring the collapses or if as it seems a 2-4 win season why hang onto the past.
Time to move on.
gameplanning/coaching does not tailor to the strength of the players. Instead they try to squeeze fit the players into their same old system.
coaches and other GMs..Respected Sirius guys like Kirwan have acknowledged that..Sorry that his lousy cap management only resulted in two SBs and a 3rd that we were on a direct path to(Plax)..
You guys want it all..you can't have it all, but as fans you've done pretty DAMN WELL in his tenure as head honcho..And you'd have no problem getting rid of him? Thank goodness none of you run a nearly billion dollar company
The acknowledged best, Newsome, has made his share of hairbrained decisions, the worst of which Reese never came close to making and that is not finding a way to re-sign Boldin..He did NOT cost all that much...
I think he knows this team needs some serious rebuilding. I expect him to go the Mara and resign so that a new coach can come in to do that. If he doesn't, nothing much changes next year. You don't fire his guys out from under him. Me, I'd get a new GM and let him hire the new coach.
About 70 years ago, the Dodgers' GM (for those of you too young to remember) said "It's better to get rid of a player one year too soon than one year too late".
The Giants have not adhered to Mr. Rickey's sound advice. And they will likely continue not to.
Plenty on BBI think we should wipe the slate clean and start from scratch.
I'm not one of them - looking objectively over the NFL during Reese's tenure, I don't see anyone who's done a better job of picking players or managing the cap. Again - not for one season, but for a stretch of 5-10 years. The only ones who come close are Newsome and Kevin Colbert in Pittsburgh.
Even replacing TC is going to be a chore. There are a lot of candidates, but none of them proven at this level and all of them pose a huge risk to the team.
Replacing the coaching staff and GM at the same time? It's so risky to change one, that changing both yields such a low probability of success that I'd rather not go that route. Change coaches now, if the situation doesn't improve then wipe the slate clean in 3-5 years.
and it's all come back to bite him in the ass all at once. Among them are de-emphasizing certain positions, cap management, drafting too many projects that haven't panned out and allowing the team get old under his watch. Hope he's learned a few lessons from his mistakes.
at anyone who thinks Reese should be fired. that is absurd.
oh, just go out and sign a "top new GM." no problem whatsoever. those guys grow on trees. it's not like there are 20 other teams in the league struggling to find a good GM. we can just kick Reese to the curb and find someone better. no problem!
good call on Colbert. Forgot about him..He's really astute at what he does
I'm 50/50 on TC only because of his age. I'm definitely not getting rid of Reese, though.
I agree with your assessment, but as posters have pointed out, how do make Coughlin go against the grain of his loyalty and fire two guys like Fewell and Gilbride?
Is it really going to work, forcing new coordinators on TC?
In comment 11274629
| I'm 50/50 on TC only because of his age. I'm definitely not getting rid of Reese, though.
Think of this as an incoming coordinator. You've been called by the Giants, who are currently 3-11 in their last 14 games, have experienced one season ending collapse and one complete shitshow of a season, who have dismissed their coordinators and whose coach (and likely GM at this point) is on the hot seat.
Do you take this job? Look at the positives:
- You could do a good job and be considered as a possible transition candidate should TC decide to retire.
- The Giants are unstable, have lost quite a few games, their coach is in a tenuous position and a down year could result in the entire staff being dismissed.
If you're the candidate, do the positives outweigh the negatives? I don't think so. I wouldn't mind keeping TC around another year, but I don't see it possible to dismiss both OC and DC and find capable replacements given the parameters of the current situation.
getting hard for me to read a lot of the posts here these days. During their tenure, the TC/Reese pair has won more Super Bowls than any team in the NFL. There isn't a fan of any team in the league that wouldn't gladly trade places with us over that period. So the answer to being the most successful team in the entire league over that period is to clean house? What? Give the guys a couple of years to fix it. They have already shown what they are capable of. Get some better players on the team, and they will start winning again. Our (likely) excellent draft position next year will probably help quite a bit in making that happen.
If Coughlin were even 10 years younger, I'd agree. But it makes little sense to me to rebuild with a guy nearly 70.
...would be a big lure for a lot of coordinators. The New York Giants HC job is a big time position and getting in as a coordinator knowing that the coach can't stick around much longer should be something a lot of guys would consider I'd think.
Like I said, though.. I'm 50/50.. I'm not totally in favor of keeping TC around. And again, his age has a lot to do with why. This may be a good opportunity to begin a new regime and have it start to bloom while Eli is still one of the better QB's in the league. If we wait and have a couple more "meh" seasons, we could be transitioning during the tail end of Eli's peak years which is what I wouldn't want.
You can turn it around quick in this league, though. Even a totally new set of coaches shouldn't mean we're not able to contend for a few years. You see teams hire new coaches and turn it around immediately all the time. Teams like Seattle, SF, Indianapolis, KC, etc all basically turned it around right away. Obviously accumulating some high picks during down years helps that but I think we could change coaches and get this thing fixed pretty quickly as long as the talent base improves.
there are only 32 teams in the entire world that have 64 Coordinator jobs to offer at one time or another. Ostensibly a person who has never been a coordinator would jump at this infinitesmal chance of being a coordinator.
Even if for one year, you've built up a resume in addition to the other points brought up on this thread..
WHO would pass up an opportunity, as transient as it might be, to be a coordinator in the NFL, undoubtedly an aspiring coaches dream from the get-go? In the mecca of the world no less
I don't think Reese is going anywhere, that's just not the way the Giants do things.
I think a better question might be -- are there any coaches Jerry would be comfortable working with from his days at UT-Martin or his days as a scout in the SEC ??
Coughlin would be offered a position like "Professor Emeritus" or Director of Football Ops or some such. A new coach hired by Reese would pick his own co-ordinators.
to be an interesting off season. Not saying I like this, but at least there will be a lot to talk about during the next eight or nine months. But at a minimum, there will undoubtedly be at least a partial house cleaning of coaches and players. The question is how much, and whether that also extends to the FO.
We are the New York Football Giants. We are not Cleveland. We are not Jacksonville. This kind of humiliation isn't tolerated by teams like the Giants, Steelers, Packers, etc. And when it happens, significant change is quite likely.
I think Reese survives, and he probably should, but not so much because of his great track record, but because any replacement might well be worse. It also may be true that the bad drafts of the last few years are a function of him having delegated too much authority from Ross, and allowing too much input from Coughlin. The drafts may improve if that ends.
I would get rid of Coughlin. He's too old to start a rebuilding process, even though I think he'd want to come back and try. I doubt he wants to go out this way. But that would make it nearly impossible to get rid of Gilbride and Fewell if he wanted to keep them.
can't get any more retarded, they manage to top themselves.
for a team with a star QB and other core positions in tact..We do NOT have to re-build anymore than other contending-type teams with Star QBs in tow..Re-tool and tweaking are more germane than re-build is, imv..
Re-build connotes cleaning house across the board...Re-tool/tweaking is far more aprepos here. There is a big difference beyond a semantical one
is not acceptable. I hear all of you who say TC/Reese has won 2 SBs. They have and they have had tremendous success in 3 of their 7 seasons together (07, 08, 11). However, one must admit they haven't done their best jobs this season/past offseason. I think Reese should probably get a mulligan, but he should be on notice. His drafts post 07 have been average to below average. His FA decisions, decidedly mixed.
I love TC for all he has done for this organization. Should he get another chance? Not if he insists on keeping Gilbride and Fewell. There has to be at least some major changes to the coaching staff.
One solution is bringing in stop gap Coordinators that he is comfortable and familiar with, like Spags or Mike Sullivan (once he's canned).
The other and far more palatable option imo is for him to retire at the end of the season and allow Reese to pick his own coach. He would have nothing to be ashamed of, even if he goes 0-16. He is still the best or 2nd best HC in franchise history. Giant fans will always adore him for what he has done. I think the timing is right for a change in the coaching staff. See if Reese can fix this situation with his own coach.
In comment 11274672
Big Blue '56 said:
| for a team with a star QB and other core positions in tact..We do NOT have to re-build anymore than other contending-type teams with Star QBs in tow..Re-tool and tweaking are more germane than re-build is, imv..
Re-build connotes cleaning house across the board...Re-tool/tweaking is far more aprepos here. There is a big difference beyond a semantical one
I'd normally agree Fiddy but we've got a lot of work to do, 're-tooling' makes it sound like it's more trivial and we're done in a season. Parity means we'll be competitive next year regardless, but I think this thing feels like a two year effort. Rid ourselves of the 07/11 core in year one and pick up some valuable high round picks, get some experience for some of our younger players in year one, and in year two, finish filling in gaps and we're off and running again.
The intent here has to be to aim to win a championship in the next 3-5 years, to coincide with Eli's falling off the peak.
From other threads it seems like a number of people don't think there are 20 players on the roster worth keeping. If they're right, finding 33 new guys might be considered more than a tweak
Isn't an approximate 1/3 personnel turnover (generally speaking) per year the norm? If so, that would me retaining nearly 33-34 and losing nearly 20. Would that mean, if that figure is pretty much accepted around the league, that that would far more exceed the definition of tweaking and every team would be in re-build mode?
there that Coughlin is too old? He very well may have a good 5 years left. That's more than enough time to retool and win another SB.
Fire oipolloi, keep everyone else.
after 10 good years, including two SBs would be....well.....minor league, like those other teams you mention.
That's why we are the Football gi
You may be right about 1/2, I don't know. But even if you are, 1/3 would be 18 players out of 53. The Giants may be looking at double that. And I think we need to consider who it is that needs to be replaced. We're looking at replacing a lot more starters than the average team does each year, I would think. If you want to call it retooling, that's cool. Whatever we call it, we've got a big job ahead of us :)
i can't remember who said this on espn radio but...
you can't just fire the coordinators and keep coughlin. coughlin has one more year on his contract and is likely done with the game after next year. so you'll have a hard time bringing in quality coordinators on a one year rental, knowing that the new head coach after coughlin will likely want to bring in his own coordinators.
so, imo, if there's coaching changes, its the whole crew, coach included
In comment 11274609
Bill in TN said:
| About 70 years ago, the Dodgers' GM (for those of you too young to remember) said "It's better to get rid of a player one year too soon than one year too late".
The Giants have not adhered to Mr. Rickey's sound advice. And they will likely continue not to.
How many championships did Rickey win?
This is starting to get ridiculous.
In the first decade of the 2000s, I assume the 2000-2009 seasons, the Giants were tied for 7th in winning percentage with the Tenn Titans, aT .554. The Eagles were 100 points higher. The Colts and Pats were both over .700. And we've played at exactly .500 the 4 seasons since.
I think Jerry Reese is a very good GM. Top 5-10 in the NFL. I think he gets a lot less credit than he deserves. Although Coughlin is a good coach, Jerry inherited him and it is difficult to make it work with an entrenched guy. But to their credit, both of them made it work.
But to be honest, I think having a franchise QB has made Coughlin and Reese both look good. If the Giants had the likes of Kevin Kolb, Alex Smith ,and Michael Vick as their QB, there would be no SBs.
And I blame Reese for not putting together an OL that can protect Eli, the lynchpin of the entire team. And I blame Coughlin for forcing his QB into a scheme rather than designing the offense around him.
about their 1-4 Falcons? I realize they could probably be 4-1, but just curious what the reactions in general are? Anything on Mike Smith? Ryan?
TC took an unknown, Brunell, to two AFC championship games..MB was languishing with the Packers..
I know he did. And I have said he is a good HC. But Jags also wound up going in the toilet towards the end of his run. Is the same thing happening here?
In general, I think head coaches have a limited shelf life. Guys like Bill Walsh and John Madden knew when to get out. Shula and Noll stayed on way too long. Joe Gibbs knew when to get out but then he came back and flopped.
I think Coughlin could lead a rebuilding program, but I also think there is a chance he might not. And I don't want to waste the remaining years of Eli's prime finding out.
i listen to alot of Atlanta Sports radio. You have some fans that want to get rid of everybody, of course. But ATL has real excuses why they aren't a good team this year. They lost alot of guys on defense and couldn't resign/sign ppl due to Matt Ryans contract. Roddy White has been trying to play with a high ankle sprain all year. Stephen jackson is hurt. And now Roddy is out.
gets his team to overachieve in the regular season and then flops in the postseason
what is concerning to me is his inability to change what has worked in the past.
We all know the definition of insanity.....the truth is that what has worked in the past is not working now.
but I wouldn't completely rule it out if this team goes 1-15 or 2-14 and Eli throws 30+ interceptions. Unfortunately these results are not out of the question...
or decides to retire (which isn't being fired and highly unlikely). Fewell is the most likely to go because his contract is up. Gilbride will go only if he's offered a coaching job which could come from the college ranks. I do think we may see some changes in the offensive game plans. Personnel changes are the most likely to happen. O line being the most obvious. If this team could run the ball many of the issues go away, interceptions included.
This team needs a fresh start, new beginning. The time is now. Get rid of the old and in with the new. To much has happened that can't be fixed.
who does the hiring? John, Steve and Chris? Oh boy.....
Ain't gonna happen......
but I don't get the feeling that Mara or Tisch are gung ho to spend a bundle for a super star.Whateve. It's a fact that big names switch teams every year but not the stuck in the mud Giants.
I heard TC on the hot seat, I thought it was stupid and knew it wasnt going to happen. This year, the Giants finish 5-11 at best, I dont see Coughlin coming back. Hopefully he retires. Reese is more responsible than the coaches for the Giants problems this year and last, he will be fired. New HC, new GM, completely new staff. I love TC and Reese started off well enough to get the Giants 2 SBs, but he is out of gas, hell with it, the engine is blown. If the giants had another 8-8, 9-7 season with no playoffs, I keep the whole staff and Reese. But this is different. Being exposed this badly as a GM is really bad. Keeping my fingers crossed that Coughlin retires.
so ATL has REAL excuses for a 1-4 record but the Giants don't? You were the same guy questioning whether Coughlin's Giants were ever "great." under his watch. Actually you said the Giants were "average" every year under Coughlin, even when they won both super bowls. Average. Never great. Your exact words. An Atlanta team that has won one more big game under Smith than I have.
season. I think we need the guy TC used to be...a real scary disciplinarian who doesn't tolerate mistakes or less than 100% effort. That TC didn't work for us back in the day, but a terribly underperforming team needs that. At a minimum you need someone with great leadership and motivational skills.
As for Reese I cannot see him being let go (and don't want him to be). I WISH that Ross would be replaced, but see no chance of that occurring either.
I don't think Reese should be fired, though after this season the bloom is definitely off the rose.
first thing is to immediately redo the talent evaluation team. Now is when they're gathering up info/opinions on potential draft/FA for next year. This is an area that is not performing up to snuff.
Management: don't forget that this includes the Maras. a couple years back, there was a bit of a turf war. Chris Mara is a bigwig. Obviously John Mara is, too. Just because Reese is the public face of Giant management, doesn't mean the Maras don't have their fingers in the pie. We don't know the closed door meetings that are leading to the poor decisions. For all we know, Reese doesn't have a free hand. Conversely, he very well may, and the Maras aren't seeing eye to eye with him. I doubt Reese is going anywhere, but that doesn't mean it isn't possible.
Coaching: has Coughlin ever in his time with the Giants shown any sign of willingly part with any of his staff? If a major housecleaning is in order, the orders won't be given by TC. Having management yank his entire staff against his is a recipe for disaster. Cut them all. compounding factor: Under the stupid lame duck policy of the Giants, this is the year for extending TC. Do you really give a coach an extension coming off a pathetic year?
Injuries may give them all a reprieve, and there's a good possibility almost everyone returns.
If everyone returns after a season like this, well...
I have nothing to say.
especially when they have a franchise QB in place. Firing everyone doesnt fix the problem but it does ensure the fact you will have problems for the next 2-3 years...
firing everybody, but you cannot bring the same cast back. That's just unacceptable.
The problem is either bad coaching or it is bad personnel. I think most here would agree the issue is the lack of talent.
Talent falls on Reese. And I'd be much more inclined to give Reese a pass if he KNEW, heading into the season, that there was a talent issue - that he saw the problem and therefore had a long range plan in place to address it.
But that most definitely is NOT the case. He didn't see this coming. He didn't have a clue. How do I know this? Reese made that publicly apparent with his "Countdown Clock".
So, my problem is that the issue is talent - and the person in charge of the talent issue didn't have a fuck'n clue there was an issue. That, my friends, is a problem.
Good post. Look at Fewell as an example. He isn't exactly getting much help, is he? We have no linebackers, JPP and Tuck aren't doing much, etc., etc. If JPP and Tuck were having monster years, and we had some solid LBs, I'd be willing to bet that all of a sudden Fewell looks like a pretty solid DC. His defense at the end of '11 and into '12 sure looked pretty damn good to me. Look at Spags. He was a "genius" in '07 and then went on to field a historically bad defense in N.O. Did he forget how to coach? Maybe, but I seriously doubt it. At least on the defensive side of the ball, we obviously have some significant talent problems right now. Fewell may end up being a fall guy regardless. It will be an interesting offseason.
but I am not down on Reese based on one very bad year. I am not going to put much stock in one bad year. If there had been a clear pattern of very serious problems for an extended period of time, that would be a different story (specifically, no SB wins, mutiple sub-.500 seasons). As BB'56 mentioned, he seems to have a great reputation in the league. My guess is that we will be winning in 2-3 years again (with Reese), and we will look back on this season and laugh.
Not so. I've been pushing it for a while now.
Promote or retire Coughlin. Say bye-bye to Gilbride. Keep Fewell and let's see how he does with a pass rush or real linebackers.
worth discussing. Maybe it has come to everyone needing to be fired. I would give Coughlin and Gilbride another year to fix this mess and fire Fewell. We have had to much success with Gilbride to not give him a chance to resurrect our offense. Defense has been bad for way too long. This may be because of our players and not necessarily on Fewell.