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Is Nicks still a top 25 WR in the league?

dep026 : 10/13/2013 9:15 pm
Since I got to watch a lot of football today, I saw a lot of WR make play after play. And it got me wondered, we always viewed Nicks as a number 1 WR, and now I am not too sure. Including guys who are out for the year, is Nicks still a top 25 WR? Here are guys I would take over him. No particular order.

1. AJ Green.
2. Josh Gordon
3. Reggie Wayne
4. Andre Johnson
5. Justin Blackmon
6. Demaryius Thomas
7. Wes Welker
8. Dez Bryant
9. Desean Jackson
10. Calvin Johnson
11. Randal Cobb
12. Jordy Nelson
13. Brandon Marshall
14. Julio Jones
15. Larry Fitzgerald.
16. Victor Cruz

Now I know many will argue some are too young to put ahead of Nicks (Blackmon/Gordon) but they are absolute beast, and having monster games on very bad teams. Now some of the WRs are getting to their final legs as well (Wayne/A. Johnson). Now there are a bunch of WRs who are in the same range if not a little worse/better.

Eric Decker, Dwayne Bowe, Antonio Brown, Roddy White, Michael Crabtree/Percy Harvin/Jeremy Maclin (all hurt) Mike Wallace, Pierre Garcon, Marques Colston, Steve Smith, Vincent Jackson.

Now Obviously Nicks is better than a lot of the aforementioned played, however the point is WR seem to be coming up in the NFL. With the holes we have just about everywhere, trading Nicks may not be the worst thing. IMO, Nicks is going to demand number 1 WR money, and as you can see - does he really stand out over a lot of these guys? I'd say no.
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RE: There are 32 teams in the NFL  
dep026 : 10/13/2013 10:30 pm : link
In comment 11276855 oldutican said:
Quote:
so even if he is not in top 25, he is still a #1 receiver. I'm just telling you how much the Giants and Eli will miss him. I guess you think his skills have slipped permanently. I don't know.

I'm not trying to rag on you. I just think there are posters who believe Eli can do wrong, but they jump ship on other guys when they are not playing as well as they have. Think about it.


Just because I defend Eli, doesnt mean I dont think he has struggled. I jsut dont blame him for everything.

In regards to Nicks, I dont know it just seems like there are a lot of quality WRs in the league. If Nicks was playing to 2011 form, then there isnt a debate. But he struggled last year through injuries, and has been meh so far this year.
Some of these names are preposterous  
dpinzow : 10/13/2013 10:30 pm : link
Josh Gordon? Justin Blackmon? Demaryius Thomas? I agree with most of the other names on the original list but there's no way you can put receivers with track records that short like those guys over Nicks
I'll go team by team, starting with our division  
dpinzow : 10/13/2013 10:47 pm : link
Giants: Cruz but this is very debatable
Philly: nobody, DJax only runs one route and Nicks > Maclin
Dallas: Dez, but that's it
Washington: LOL

Detroit: Megatron
Chicago: Marshall
Green Bay: Nelson-Cobb-Jones make an excellent trio but Nicks is better than all of them; maybe an argument for Jordy but that is a stretch
Minnesota: LOL

New Orleans: Colston's dropped off, so nobody there. We're not counting Graham who is absolutely better but is a TE
Atlanta: Julio and Roddy > Nicks
Carolina: Very close between Nicks and Steve Smith, so we'll put Smith in
Tampa Bay: Nicks > VJax but it's close

Seattle: Nobody
San Francisco: Boldin
Arizona: Larry Fitz
Rams: LOL

Patriots: LOL
Dolphins: Nicks > Mike Wallace
Jets: LOL
Bills: Nicks > Stevie Johnson

Ravens: Nicks > Torrey Smith
Bengals: AJ Green, but actually closer than you think
Browns: Nobody
Steelers: Nobody, Nicks > Antonio Brown and Emmanuel Sanders

Colts: Wayne
Titans: LOL
Texans: Andre's a shell of his former self, so no one
Jags: Blackmon doesn't have a track record yet, so no

Denver: Just Welker, Demaryius needs another good year or two
KC: Nicks > Bowe
Oakland: LOL
SD: No one

So all I've got is Cruz, Dez, Megatron, Marshall, Roddy, Julio, Boldin, Larry Fitz, AJ Green, Wayne, and Welker (that's 11 receivers)
And you named about 10-12 WRs  
dep026 : 10/13/2013 10:50 pm : link
were it at least made you think. Thats the point. Is he worth signing in the offseason as a number 1 especially with all the holes we have?
I would consider franchising him  
dpinzow : 10/13/2013 10:53 pm : link
but he'll command at least $11 million/yr on the open market so a long-term contract is questionable at best, even for a guy who is a top 15 WR
If Nicks is not signed,  
oldutican : 10/13/2013 11:11 pm : link
they have another gaping hole. A pass reliant team like the Giants needs 3 quality WRs to function effectively, and sure as hell needs 2 when one gets injured. Who is going to take his place? Another high draft pick? An overpaid FA?

Maybe they can't afford to keep Nicks. Maybe he doesn't even want to stay. But either way, he would be a major loss.
dep  
Rob_MTL : 10/13/2013 11:20 pm : link
Good luck finding a comparable receiver that will play for free.

Your logic is flawed and your list is fantasy footballesq.

I'd tell you what  
dep026 : 10/13/2013 11:27 pm : link
other than the fact many people here showing they dont watch a single play outside the Giants....

If I had my choice between Nicks and Gordon/Blackmon/Nelson/Cobb.... I am taking the latter 4, right now.

Who do you replace Nicks with.... what if Eric Decker comes cheaper? Or Jeremy Maclin? Or James Jones? James Jones in the slot with Randle/Cruz could be just fine.
No way I'd take Jordy over him  
AnotherGiantsFan : 10/13/2013 11:32 pm : link
He's a great WR, but he's 3 years old and hasn't proved nearly as much as Nicks has. Not to mention that Jordy has the better QB throwing to him.
dep  
Rob_MTL : 10/13/2013 11:46 pm : link
So according to your list Decker is a superior player yet you think hes going to play for less? Why would give he give a discount for the Giants?

Don't you think the Broncos are going to do their damness to keep Decker? That would be the smart play. The Giants will do same with Nicks.





Where did I say  
dep026 : 10/13/2013 11:55 pm : link
Decker was better? Did I say he was in the list that was either the same, or a little bit better/worse? Dont put words in my mouth.
currently this season his statistics would be on pace for  
Neverend : 10/13/2013 11:59 pm : link
66 REC, 1178 YDS. 0 TDs (inlc. the blank 0 rec, 0 yds game @ Carolina which really ruins his average) over the course of 16 games played

RE: currently this season his statistics would be on pace for  
dep026 : 10/14/2013 12:03 am : link
In comment 11277012 Neverend said:
Quote:
66 REC, 1178 YDS. 0 TDs (inlc. the blank 0 rec, 0 yds game @ Carolina which really ruins his average) over the course of 16 games played


Catch wise that would put him around 30 last year.
Yardage wise that would be around 13-14.


TDs - not even worth comparing because he could still get 7-10 easy this year.
Sometimes Giants fans can be so bitter and ridiculous  
Sonic Youth : 10/14/2013 12:05 am : link
Saying that Blackmon and Desean Jackson are better than Nicks is like when people were saying Cruz was "just" a slot receiver and easily replaceable during his contract negotiations. You don't need to try and tear down others or delude yourself into thinking a player is worse than he is in order to cope with them leaving.
RE: Andre Johnson over Nicks at this point?  
Mike in Jersey : 10/14/2013 12:08 am : link
In comment 11276652 Ace718 said:
Quote:
No way in hell.
.

Andre Johnson 2012: 112 receptions, 1598 yards, 4 TD
Hakeem Nicks 2012: 53 receptions, 692 yards, 3 TD

Andre Johnson 2013: 37 receptions, 407 yards, 0 TD
Hakeem Nicks 2013: 25 receptions, 442 yards, 0 TD

Last year Andre Johnson and Nicks weren't even in the same stratosphere, what exactly has Nicks done this year to change the idea that Johnson is still the better player?
Did somebody argue on this thread  
Mike from SI : 10/14/2013 12:09 am : link
that Nicks is better than Demaryius Thomas? Did that happen?
And eys  
Sonic Youth : 10/14/2013 12:11 am : link
I know Blackmon has a ton of ability and may end up be better, but at this point in time he has done nothing in the NFL.
RE: Sometimes Giants fans can be so bitter and ridiculous  
dep026 : 10/14/2013 12:11 am : link
In comment 11277021 Sonic Youth said:
Quote:
Saying that Blackmon and Desean Jackson are better than Nicks is like when people were saying Cruz was "just" a slot receiver and easily replaceable during his contract negotiations. You don't need to try and tear down others or delude yourself into thinking a player is worse than he is in order to cope with them leaving.


Nicks has 0 pro bowls, never been top 10 in yards or catches in the NFL. Think fans tend to overrate players on their own team?
There are  
Jerry in DC : 10/14/2013 12:19 am : link
a handful of guys who are unquestionably better than Nicks: Calvin, Green, Marshall, Julio, Dez, Fitzgerald. I think that's the list. And while Fitzgerald is better than Nicks, he's been riding the no QB thing for a while now to the point where I'm not sure I put him in that top group anymore. Nice long TD today though.

And Nicks is only 25. I was about to write how I'd rather have Demaryious Thomas for upside and youth, but Nicks is actually younger (only 3 weeks, but still kind of surprising). I'd still probably rather have Thomas though.

Josh Gordon is 22 - he might end up being awesome if he keeps his head on straight. Blackmon has a weird track record of hit and miss games. It's tough to figure out who he is as a player on such and uncompetitive team. He might end up being better though - hard to say at this point.

Andre Johnson and Roddy White might be better - they're 30+ now though. Torrey Smith is having a great season, but I don't know if I'd put him there yet. I think Nicks is better than all the Packers guys, although Cobb is a tough comp because they're very different players. Maybe Vincent Jackson over Nicks.

I'd take Nicks over Boldin (no speed), Wayne (still pretty good, but way past his prime), DeSean (one dimensional), Wallace (not actually very good and really inconsistent if you watch him), Colston (really slow now and pretty much past it)...I'm probably forgetting a couple, but that seems to be about it.

So yeah, top 25 for sure. Probably somewhere in between 10 and 20.
Here's the list that I would take over Nicks at this point  
Mike in Jersey : 10/14/2013 12:19 am : link
I'll break it up into 2 groups, guys that are without question better than Nicks, and guys that are probably better, but you can argue either way.

Without question: Victor Cruz, Dez Bryant, Calvin Johnson, Brandon Marshall, Julio Jones, Roddy White, Larry Fitzgerald, AJ Green, Reggie Wayne, Andre Johnson, Wes Welker, Demaryius Thomas.

Probably: Jordy Nelson, Randall Cobb, Vincent Jackson, Percy Harvin, Anquan Boldin

Still top 20 though for sure. There are a couple guys that are closing in on that list though and depending on how they play over the next 10 games could arguably be ahead of him. (Torrey Smith, Josh Gordon, Justin Blackmon, Eric Decker)
This also bring up a point  
dep026 : 10/14/2013 12:33 am : link
that Arc mentioned.

If Nicks is traded or not resigned...... Can Sammy Watkins be a guy who becomes a top WR within 2-3 years?
dep  
Rob_MTL : 10/14/2013 12:38 am : link
Ok so your opinion is that Decker and Nicks are comparable.

A high draft pick, millions of dollars invested in training, the growing pains. The time and effort only to see him go to a competitor.

For Nicks the next 4years should be his most productive.
Did you watch the 2011 playoff games?  
Reese's Pieces : 10/14/2013 1:17 am : link
Quote:
Nicks has 0 pro bowls, never been top 10 in yards or catches in the NFL. Think fans tend to overrate players on their own team?


Production in the real world on the big stage is more important at times than regular season numbers and stats.

In the four 2011 playoff wins Nicks caught 28 passes for 444 yards, four touchdowns and 19 first downs against Atlanta, Green Bay, San Francisco and New England. The last three away from home against arguably the three best teams in the league at that time.

And there was that Hail Mary catch at the end of the first half that put the Packers away. I contend that it wasn't a real lucky Hail Mary because Nicks was tracking the ball in the air as he as running to the end zone and arrived there at the same time as the ball and leaped and pulled it in while surrounded by other players.

About the only area of this year's Giant team that most would agree is of championship caliber is their downfield passing game. Manning and Nicks and Cruz are unstoppable if Eli is given even average pass protection.
I have to agree with oldutican...  
GiantFanInTX : 10/14/2013 1:44 am : link
I don't think a lot of Giants fans will realize how much we will miss Nicks. The guy has some rare hands, and can make catches that no one else on our team can make. He's big, strong and difficult to cover. He also bails our QB out at times (like all top tier receivers do).

If Nicks goes, you will see how much we will miss him and it won't be pretty.
Nicks is  
TommyWiseau : 10/14/2013 2:06 am : link
Top 15-20 in my opinion but come on, Demaryius Thomas > Nicks all day qnd that's not a knock on Nicks
I guess we learned nothing from the Cruz situation last season  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/14/2013 4:34 am : link
When he wasn't worth paying, was just a replaceable slot guy made by Eli, and Nicks was the no-brainer keeper.


Nice job by dpinzow going through the league's WRs team by team.  
BlueLou : 10/14/2013 5:56 am : link
Nicks is still top 15 IMO too. Yeah he's slipped from where he was 2 years ago, but some of that is the OL, and some is Eli himself.

Gimme a break if you can't see that.
2 more things...  
BlueLou : 10/14/2013 6:01 am : link
I wonder how Nicks would look if HE played with the OTHER Manning? (Re Demaryius Thomas).

Does anyone see this year how much we miss Steve Smith? And that's even with Victor Cruz, who's better all around than SS was...

Nicks is a great system fit here, as was SS, and as was, in a limited but crucial way, Mario Manningham as a 3rd WR...

Randle hasn't yet replaced Mario adequately in terms of how he fits with the Nicks/VC and 3rd? trio, IMO.
good luck to cruz and randle  
hitdog42 : 10/14/2013 6:27 am : link
When teams enter games not gameplanning with their #1 corner on nicks.
The giants for some odd reason are also not running a lot of the stop fade routes that also take advantage of nicks physical play... Why? Not sure.
I don't really care where nicks is ranked... I do care that we have like 5 + players on the team and nicks is 1 of them. If he prices himself out then he walks... If not... Then good for the giants and he is not easily replaceable.
Also watch half those fcking guys in our offense and see how your fantasy football numbers look.

Nicks  
djstat : 10/14/2013 7:26 am : link
Is solid but he is only top 15 based on potential. Not production. You can say how other teams game plan for him. Well then other teams CBs are better then he is this year.


0-6 NO one is in top 25 and who cares anyway
lol  
Loluchka80 : 10/14/2013 8:46 am : link
Nicks isn't the best WR on the Giants. Maybe 3rd best.
he's definitely top 25, probably just on the outside  
UConn4523 : 10/14/2013 8:52 am : link
of top 15. He's clearly uninterested though, and the rest of the offensive woes aren't helping.

I think Josh Gordon is the real deal and a bigger talent though.
Interesting thread  
Rob in NYC : 10/14/2013 9:04 am : link
and well-argued, I think. People are getting bogged down in the individual names a bit, which is OK. I think we can all agree on a group that is clearly better (5-7?), with reasonable debate on another 10-15ish.

I would put Nicks in the 12-20 range, but dep's point is a fair one - I think putting him beyond that 25 range means arguing for some older receivers (White, Colston) that I doubt any non-fantasy GM would select ahead of Nicks when constructing a team.
I dont understand why people keep referencing  
dep026 : 10/14/2013 9:33 am : link
the 2011 playoffs as means of a ranking. Sure, if Hakeem was playing to that level, this topic would never come up.

However, we havent seen that player for over 20 games now. We have seen flashes, but a lot of inconsistency. If he were to accept somewhere between 6-7 million a year - its a no brainer. However, he will probably ask for over 10 million a year - and it just might not be worth it.
You just stepped in it  
oldutican : 10/14/2013 9:47 am : link
Let's use the same logic about Eli. He sure as hell isn't playing up to his 2011 level and he sure seems overpriced. Where does he rank among NFL QBs? Using the logic you have toward Nicks, Eli isn't a top 20. Maybe they should unload his salary, get some picks and draft one of the top QBs.

Now I don't believe that, but it sure sounds like what you are saying about Nicks,
RE: You just stepped in it  
dep026 : 10/14/2013 9:54 am : link
In comment 11277358 oldutican said:
Quote:
Let's use the same logic about Eli. He sure as hell isn't playing up to his 2011 level and he sure seems overpriced. Where does he rank among NFL QBs? Using the logic you have toward Nicks, Eli isn't a top 20. Maybe they should unload his salary, get some picks and draft one of the top QBs.

Now I don't believe that, but it sure sounds like what you are saying about Nicks,


You cant compare QBs to WRs, since the QB is far more important than a WR. And you cant compare Nicks to Eli since Nicks is a FA at the end of the year. You are assuming a team would try and trade for Eli, nothing certain.

So actually nothing you said makes any sense whatsoever.
Point is the same  
oldutican : 10/14/2013 10:08 am : link
You judge other players more harshly than you judge Eli. So using the same standard you used for Nicks of how a guy has played the past 2 years, where do you rank Eli among NFL QBs?
RE: Point is the same  
dep026 : 10/14/2013 10:20 am : link
In comment 11277401 oldutican said:
Quote:
You judge other players more harshly than you judge Eli. So using the same standard you used for Nicks of how a guy has played the past 2 years, where do you rank Eli among NFL QBs?


How did I judge him harshly? I just pointed out there are a lot of good WRs in the league, and to pay him number 1 money where there is already 1 player on the team better than him.

The fact is Hakeem has not been a number 1 WR for 2 years now, so why pay him it?
RE: Point is the same  
dep026 : 10/14/2013 10:22 am : link
In comment 11277401 oldutican said:
Quote:
You judge other players more harshly than you judge Eli. So using the same standard you used for Nicks of how a guy has played the past 2 years, where do you rank Eli among NFL QBs?


After this year? Probably top 10 still. Behind Peyton, Brees, Brady, Rodgers, Luck. There are a few others like Ryan, Romo, Wilson among other that he can be lump in with.

In case you havent watched a game outside NYG....guys like Brady, Ryan, Flacco, Rodgers have been less than their normal play as well this year.
At 0-2, people on here kept invoking 2011.  
vibe4giants : 10/14/2013 11:02 am : link
Now that we're at 0-6, you'd think it'd finally sink in that it's not 2011 anymore.

In 2013, it's a fair question.
Wide receivers are "shiny hood ornaments"  
PEEJ : 10/14/2013 11:04 am : link
Discuss
LONK - ( New Window )
On the planet Mars  
PaulN : 10/14/2013 11:05 am : link
Maybe, not in the NFL, he has stunk for 2 years now, time to rate him on performance instead of what we all dream he is.
RE: Here's the list that I would take over Nicks at this point  
PaulBlakeTSU : 10/14/2013 11:17 am : link
In comment 11277046 Mike in Jersey said:
Quote:
I'll break it up into 2 groups, guys that are without question better than Nicks, and guys that are probably better, but you can argue either way.

Without question: Victor Cruz, Dez Bryant, Calvin Johnson, Brandon Marshall, Julio Jones, Roddy White, Larry Fitzgerald, AJ Green, Reggie Wayne, Andre Johnson, Wes Welker, Demaryius Thomas.
)


I don't know how you can say that Victor Cruz is "without question" better than Nicks when it has been a long, on-going debate. I personally think Nicks is the superior receiver to Cruz.

I'm also not sure what makes Roddy White without question better than Nicks other than the fact that he plays 9 games per year in a dome on an offense with Julio JOnes and Tony Gonzalez and they used to have a strong offensive line.

It's hard for downfield receivers to produce in a stubborn and complicated passing system when the offensive line is terrible.

Plus, while I think he should play hard, I think it is hard to go all out knowing how easy it is to get injured when you're a pending free agent. It doesn't excuse poor behavior, but i do think it's hard to do.
dep  
Rob_MTL : 10/14/2013 11:27 am : link
You don't know what Nicks demands are.
You don't know what the Giants are willing to offer.
You don't know how much cap room the Giants will have.
You don't know how this season will end.

So why worry about it kid?
Got to try to bring Nicks back  
eightshamrocks : 10/14/2013 3:16 pm : link
I cringe at what the Giants offense would look like next season minus Nicks. If you think the offense looks bad this season, just wait till next year when Nicks isn't here to take pressure of Cruz. Only having two good receivers in Cruz and Randle ain't gonna cut the mustard for the Giants. The rest of the receivers on the team are not even average or average at best.
While I'd love to have Nicks back I would not break the bank for him  
SGMen : 10/14/2013 3:22 pm : link
There are so many holes on this team that it isn't even funny. Losing Nicks would likely hurt but your never know if a kid will step up or something at 1/50th the price!
Dep  
djm : 10/14/2013 5:05 pm : link
WRs need a functioning offense to fully flourish. Blackmon? Has that guy made a play in a big spot even once during his career? Some of those guys you listed....a stretch.

Nicks is a good player. If you're gonna evaluate every Giant offensive player right now you're gonna be fooled because this thing is a wreck right now. Nicks would start for a lot of teams. Eli is struggling. The OL is struggling. Nicks will struggle as a result. And by the way, Nicks is on pace for over 60 catches and 1000 yards. Not bad. He can do better and probably will do better if/when this offense gets things moving in the right direction.

It's odd that you picked NOW as the time to evaluate Nicks. I'd say it's not the best timing. WOuldn't you?
RE: Dep  
dep026 : 10/14/2013 5:07 pm : link
In comment 11278374 djm said:
Quote:
WRs need a functioning offense to fully flourish. Blackmon? Has that guy made a play in a big spot even once during his career? Some of those guys you listed....a stretch.

Nicks is a good player. If you're gonna evaluate every Giant offensive player right now you're gonna be fooled because this thing is a wreck right now. Nicks would start for a lot of teams. Eli is struggling. The OL is struggling. Nicks will struggle as a result. And by the way, Nicks is on pace for over 60 catches and 1000 yards. Not bad. He can do better and probably will do better if/when this offense gets things moving in the right direction.

It's odd that you picked NOW as the time to evaluate Nicks. I'd say it's not the best timing. WOuldn't you?


Because we are near the trading deadline and he is a UFA, so the front office has to decide whether or not pay this man number 1 money.
you're right  
djm : 10/14/2013 5:13 pm : link
that 2011 was a long time ago. But Nicks is only 25 and not exactly banged up.

I think Nicks is better than we think if we base things off last year and this year. He's much closer to the 2010-2011 player than the 2012 player.

All things being equal, assuming this offense is at least reasonably capable, Nicks is a legit #1 and a guy worth keeping. That's my take.

I still think Cruz is a better football player though.
unless a team offers a #1  
djm : 10/14/2013 5:17 pm : link
I highly doubt the Giants trade him unless they are absolutely convinced Nicks won't be back next year. And with the FT in their pocket, I don't know why they would feel that way. NY controls Nicks for 2 more years if they so desire.

So if the Giants feel like Nicks might be worth bringing back on the FT deal, I don't think they even entertain offers UNLESS a team dangles a #1. And I don't think any team will.

Would you rather have a 2nd rounder or Nicks for 2 more years at the very least? I'd rather have Nicks. With that said, the Giants know more than I do with regards to Nicks' health and attitude and staying power here, so maybe they feel he has lost a step? Maybe they feel he's a bit of a dog? I doubt it...but u never know....
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