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Rueben Randle insists he's on the same page with Eli

Eric from BBI : Admin : 10/16/2013 9:14 am
FYI.
Giants' Rueben Randle insists he's on the same page with Eli Manning despite flurry of interceptions - ( New Window )
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It seems like when they promoted Ryan and Gilbride Jr, they  
Riggies : 10/16/2013 10:20 am : link
lost significant ground all around the coaching staff.

QB coaching, WR coaching, and even Quality Control (given how self-scouting seems to have fallen off a cliff, at least offensively the last couple years) just seemingly aren't getting it done as well as they did before the promotions.
Coaching staff  
SanFranGiantsFan : 10/16/2013 10:21 am : link
This stuff should be resolved. The fact it hasn't is really disconcerting.
Can agree that Randle is not the brightest bulb in the pack?  
HomerJones45 : 10/16/2013 10:27 am : link
I know he had that LSU education and all . . .
Emil,  
AnishPatel : 10/16/2013 10:29 am : link
Yeah it's a tough thing to be a new position coach. You need to win the respect of your players and be able to teach them effectively. Jr. has a tough road. He is lucky that you have veterans like Nicks and Cruz as starters. He has to be able to get his point across to RR though. That's where you see how good of a coach he can be. Work with the guy until he gets it especially in this system where a mistake means INT.

I don't ever remember Nicks dogging a route until this year. That's under Jr. So how does he address Nicks? What if Nicks brushes him off because he is a new coach. We won't bench Nicks. So these are issues that a new positional coach has to deal with.

So Coughlin comes out on  
SanFranGiantsFan : 10/16/2013 10:29 am : link
Friday & pretty much says it's Randle's fault. But Gilbride Jr. told him during the game it was Eli's fault. And now Randle is saying it wasn't his fault.

I'm so confused. This team is a total headache right now.
Emil, i think you are asking all the right questions.  
Jimmy Googs : 10/16/2013 10:30 am : link
I do believe the biggest cause for this particular miscommunication is that Eli is pressing and Randle is not experienced enough yet to help him out.

A couple of those ints were, in my opinion, lobs down the middle of the field when the original play broke down and Eli was just hoping a WR (Randle) would break open.

In the Bear game, Eli turned and threw both times w/o truly assessing the defense on that side. To me, it doesn't matter what the play call was... he can't keep throwing into tight coverage.
NFL WRs  
Emil : 10/16/2013 10:32 am : link
Routinely have some of the lowest wonderlic scores, on average. I'm not going to insult Randle's intelligence, he comes across as an articulate young man to me. This fix should not take a great deal of intellect.

I really question the coaching approach on this.
Jimmy  
Emil : 10/16/2013 10:42 am : link
Good points. On the tight coverage. QBs throw and have to throw into tight coverage in this league. Every weekend you hear some analyst say "he threw him open", "if you're even you're open", and "he put that only where the receiver could get." So you have to throw into tight coverage sometimes...but, the issue here is communication breakdown. I'm sure Eli wish he could have that pass back and knowing what we know now, he never should have thrown it. If you're Gilbride or Coughlin you can say to Eli you never should have thrown that ball, but also, as a coach you understand that if the QB read COVER 3 and the CB COVER 2 look was never communicated to him from his outside WR then you really can't fault him too much for the decision. That is the proper pass against COVER 3 in that situation, problem is, the CB was not playing COVER 3...but did Eli know that, did his WR tell him?

That really annoying thing is if Randle successfully communicates the coverage to Eli's right the play is a big gain and probably a touchdown. I know we all want to understand what is happening out there and many of us want to affix blame, but these type of communication breakdowns are an indictment of the whole offense. Eli and Gilbride need to demand the WRs communicate the coverage, Randle needs to work on the cerebral aspects of playing WR (not just go out and run routes), and Eli needs to take fewer chances until Randle learns gets more consistent with the mental aspect of the game. Enough blame to go around, but I can't fault Eli for throwing the ball if his eyes on the periphery where not providing him with the information he needs to make decisions. My bigger concern is this could be bigger than one young player, this could be a positional coaching issue.
I actually think  
blakjedi : 10/16/2013 10:42 am : link
Randle was right in what he saw... *shrug*

Eli made the wrong read but im not sure if he was under pressure when he made the throw.
Didn't Gilbride praise Randle all spring/summer long  
Jimmy Googs : 10/16/2013 10:45 am : link
saying how much he has improved and mature he was this season? Clearly he has a bright future but still a lot to learn when the ball is snapped.

Those comments probably had a lot to do with getting Cruz signed and Nicks back on the field.
blakjedi  
Emil : 10/16/2013 10:54 am : link
Yes Randle made the right read, but how does he communicate that to Eli. That is the question. If you look at the pre-snap read, the QB reads COVER 3 based on the defensive alignment. Very hard for a QB to read coverages based on the CB, he can't see them all that well, especially when he is under center. The alignment and intention of the CB must be communicated by the WR before the snap so Eli can adjust. Plax was extremely good at this in 07 and 08, part of the reason why he was uncoverble. He knew what the defensive alignment was pre-snap and communicated to Eli with body language, hand signals, and alignment. Really all-pro caliber stuff those two years.
I agree that QBs need to throw into tight coverage in the NFL  
Jimmy Googs : 10/16/2013 10:59 am : link
but I probably needed to expand my thought some.

While QBs need to do so, Eli has to be more prudent how often that happens and whether Randle is the good WR choice at this point in doing so.

The picks are killing us. Eli has to take the sack or throw out of bounds. We have to be able to punt the ball and live for another day.

Even a bad NFL team can win 6 games in this league by limiting their own turnovers.
Jimmy  
Emil : 10/16/2013 11:02 am : link
You and I agree on the tight coverage issue then.
RE: Didn't Gilbride praise Randle all spring/summer long  
BigBlueinChicago : 10/16/2013 11:04 am : link
In comment 11281066 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
saying how much he has improved and mature he was this season? Clearly he has a bright future but still a lot to learn when the ball is snapped.

Those comments probably had a lot to do with getting Cruz signed and Nicks back on the field.


I agree. I think all of that praise was a ploy to get the other receivers back playing.

Randle was essentially Eli's #1 WR in the OTA's, mini camp and through some of training camp as Cruz and Nicks had their issues. Everyone loved what he was putting forth from the coaches on down and was hyped as a guy poised to break out. Now suddenly, the two of them are having all of these breakdowns?

Something isn't adding up.
It had to be the CB's  
Doomster : 10/16/2013 11:08 am : link
fualt.....

He created all that confusion, and then had the audacity to return it to the house....
It's easy to look great in August.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/16/2013 11:10 am : link
When there's no defense across the field actively trying to defeat the QB-WR tandem.
Doomster  
Emil : 10/16/2013 11:11 am : link
Well said...if only our D were as confusing??
If he knew he was on the wrong page  
pjcas18 : 10/16/2013 11:12 am : link
wouldn't he have just been on the right page to begin with?
It's different  
AnishPatel : 10/16/2013 11:13 am : link
doing this in the offseason. He could be doing it against the scout team when their lined up based on the cue cards. Now with game pressure and defenses scheming things change. All it takes is 1 brain fart and that results in an int. This system has no margin for error. An error in this system results in an INT.
Eli has to be one helluva poker player  
SHO'NUFF : 10/16/2013 11:16 am : link
to be able to detect subtle tells on the body language of his receivers
The other thing I don't get  
Emil : 10/16/2013 11:20 am : link
is the Giants take literally forever at the LOS. Ample time for the WR to communicate back to the QB, more than once in fact. Just don't understand how this is an issue 6 games in.
Same page, likely  
old man : 10/16/2013 11:21 am : link
but different book also likely.
The problem is they misnumbered the pages in Randles book  
Scyber : 10/16/2013 11:22 am : link
.
Emil,  
AnishPatel : 10/16/2013 11:24 am : link
Communication is one way. QB to WR usually as hand signals. You don't signal back as a WR. You're job is to look at the QB and then read what he is saying and look upfield. It isn't a conversation of sorts. It's a one way command. The general on the field to his troops to do this.
Anish...not correct  
Emil : 10/16/2013 11:33 am : link
Sorry man, but that is not the case. Granted every offense does not operate this way, but most do.

- After the WR aligns in his stance, he reads the CB and S alignment.
- His next responsibility is to loudly call out the coverage using the stipulated code word.
- If the WR judges he needs to change his route, he signals to the QB in a agreed upon manner. Some typical methods are a WR may tap his helmet or pull on his face mask to signal a hitch, open his shoulders towards the QB to signal a slant, place his hands on his hips to signal an out.
- The QB has the option to change the WRs route (much like a pitcher shakes off a catcher) or change the play entirely based on the coverage.

Not so concerned about the final two steps in this case. Much more concerned about the first two and whether they are happening.
Emil,  
AnishPatel : 10/16/2013 12:04 pm : link
I have never seen an offense do this. Either HS, college or NFL. I have observed the Falcons offense in the coaches meetings, and have been around the Coach Garrett and his father, old man garrett and never heard of a system doing this.

You are lining up and getting a pre snap read. You are looking at the QB who will give may or may not give you a hand signal. The QB is busy reading many other things to have a conversation or communication or sorts with the Wr.

At all 3 levels of the game I have been around I haven't seen this. What level of the game did you observe this? Maybe some teams do this, but from the 3 levels I have observed I haven't.

Too much time it would take is my guess. The QB has other stuff to process. After he is done processing it he will dictate based on his pre snap read what's going to happen.
If the pre-snap read is cover 3, but the actual coverage when  
giantsfour : 10/16/2013 12:14 pm : link
the play develops is cover 2, does the receiver alter his route hoping the QB sees the same thing? The receiver may feel that even if he continued his route, the CB would beat him to the spot anyway.
Fixed it  
Paulie Walnuts : 10/16/2013 12:16 pm : link

Rueben Randle insists he's on the same PLANET with Eli
Eric from BBI : Admin : 9:14 am
FYI.
Giants' Rueben Randle insists he's on the same PLANET with Eli Manning despite flurry of interceptions - ( New Window )
Anish  
Emil : 10/16/2013 12:19 pm : link
I really appreciate your insight and like that we can have a discussion about two different approaches to offense. You've earned your reputation as a solid poster. Given your experiences I would like to hear more on how you think the offense should be run (assuming you take issue with its complexity like I do).

I have experienced the approach outlined above in the HS and College level. I do not have your contact with the pro-game, but I know that Charges used a similar approach in years past (pre-Norv Tuner). So clearly there are different approaches to the pre-snap and route adjustment aspect of the game. I think an area we can both agree on is that the WR has a responsibility to call out the coverage. How the route adjustments are made clearly depends on the team. It could be as I outlined, or it could be that when a particular coverage is identified the WRs have routes the default to based on the QB's audible. Either way, my broader question is, are the WRs communicating the coverage they see back to the QB as they should, and do they understand their route adjustments because on multiple occasions last Thursday, they made grave errors in that department.
giantsfor  
Emil : 10/16/2013 12:24 pm : link
That is the question. I'm sure the Giants have a method by which they accomplish that. What I want to know is when did Randle recognize the coverage? If it was pre-snap he should have communicated it, if it was post-snap the Giants should have a means to communicate that. If Randle didn't do it then I blame him, if the Giants have no identified way for the WR to signal or hint a route change to the QB I blame the coaches for not developing a que.
Emil,  
AnishPatel : 10/16/2013 12:25 pm : link
Thanks for the kind words. I enjoy speaking to you about football.

That's good if you know or observed this. If that's true and systems have this then I am not sure if I was an OC I'd want this.

I think it would be confusing if WRs called stuff out, the center is making his line calls with his OL players, and then you have the QB making his calls. I think it would be a shit show with everyone making calls. I am reminded of certain coaches making rules in regards to speaking on the head set.

The OC usually has 1 person speaking on the headset from upstairs. I guess the theory being you don't want all the positional coaches talking at once and chiming in. Speak whatever you need to the person who is delegated to speak, and he will be the spokesperson to the OC.

I like it that way with the offense. Let the WR make his reads, but last thing I want is him trying to make calls, the center is making calls on how to block the front, and then the Qb is making his calls. I am not comfortable having that be the mode of operation in my system if I am the OC. Add crowd noise and a play clock, and I just don't like all that.

Let the QB make his reads and be the spokesperson. The WR can still go through his reads, but talk to the WR coach and QB on the sideline for any adjustments that need to be made.


what is happening this year  
giantfanboy : 10/16/2013 12:26 pm : link
if we run this read option system since killbride has been OC

it seems like defense have learn to disguise what they are doing
so that Eli and WR are on different pages

Geez, typed too fast  
Emil : 10/16/2013 12:27 pm : link
should be "Chargers"
Anish  
Emil : 10/16/2013 12:35 pm : link
I will agree that the passing approach I am familiar with can be confusing if everyone is talking at once and if the QB and WRs are not on the same page. 9 times out of 10 the WRs and QB are seeing and saying the same thing as calls echo down the formation. There is a lot of noise and often times the WR will just provide a hand signal to indicate COVER 2, COVER 3, or man. I like the idea of the WRs reporting back what they see with a single word, but I think everyone on the field needs to remember the QB has the final say, so what he ultimately calls out that should be run. That is my concern with the Giants' system. I have no idea how an offense stay efficient when so often our plays call for the WR to make adjustments on the fly. Some are quite obvious, but others happen so fast that if the QB does not anticipate the change, the play falls apart. This truly is a complex and mind boggling offense.
Of what  
Arcanum : 10/16/2013 12:52 pm : link
Book ? They must be having bible study at tebows house.
Gilbride JR  
old man : 10/16/2013 1:16 pm : link
is WR coach?
That explains alot!!!!

D and D'er....like father, like son.
Emil,  
AnishPatel : 10/16/2013 1:27 pm : link
I am not sure it's effective because that takes care of the pre snap read. What about the post snap read? You going to have the WR run a route and start throwing his hands up giving the QB dropping back his post snap read? LOL. It won't work out very well. I am not a fan of hand signaling back and forth especially with the QB trying to do so much. I know as a QB I am trying to get guys lined up, battle the play clock, get the center to see what I am seeing in terms of blitzes and setting up the protection.

I am not going to have time to look at the WR unless I want to give him a hand sign. Other than that I am looking at the pre snap read and who can be coming.

The errors that are happening is my guess that it's the post snap read. The WR is reading something post snap in regards to the CB's movement and thus executing what he thinks is the proper sight adjustment. Eli's reading the post snap read in a different manner and throwing accordingly. So now you have 2 guys on different pages.

I really don't care as much with what they're showing. They can show C2, C3, or in a general read, single or double high. It's the post snap read where things get...fun. That's where the WR better be smart and see what's going on.

RE: Doomster  
JOrthman : 10/16/2013 2:05 pm : link
In comment 11281147 Emil said:
Quote:
Well said...if only our D were as confusing??


Oh they are confusing alright, just to themselves...
Anish  
Emil : 10/16/2013 3:02 pm : link
Very good points. I'm all for the pre-snap coverage call out as it really only takes a second. From a WR perspective I like the idea of "recommending" my own route, especially if you know you are owning a guy on a slant or a fade all day long. I can see how it can be too much for a QB to absorb. I really thought Eli and Plax had one of the best QB to WR connections in recent memory, particularly in 2008, before Plax had his firearm mishap. They had some great communication going and if I remember correctly always ran the route tree before every game. Of course, a player with the catch radius of Plax allows a QB to pretty much do whatever he wants with the football as long as he is not throwing it directly to the DB.

The post-snap reads concern me a great deal. In the case we all keep going over, Randle makes the right read based on the CBs reaction after the snap. Eli simply anticipated something that did not occur. There have been far too many of those this year and I wish I could pinpoint why.
Do you ever attribute it to the defense did a very good job  
giantsfour : 10/16/2013 3:13 pm : link
of showing one look and knowing what the QB likes to do with that look and then compensated for it? Sometimes the defense makes good plays too. Or maybe the WR needed to do a better job of communicating the route adjustment as you had suggested.
giantsfor  
Emil : 10/16/2013 3:22 pm : link
The defense clearly did a very good job of disguising the coverage, kudos to them, they did their job, our offense did not do theirs. Can't pass it off as the defense just made a play or simply outperformed the Giants offense. You have to assume the enemy is actively trying to trick you and get you to execute the way they want you to. That is what they do. My question is what is our passing game doing to counter such efforts. Pre-snap communication and post-snap reads are a very big part of it, and I think our passing game is failing on both accounts (that is what the stats and play of the field tell me).
This has been one of the most enlighting discussions for me.  
giantsfour : 10/16/2013 3:27 pm : link
I also wonder if your QB is also thinking about the need to move in the pocket because he does not trust his OL, then post-snap reads may not be as effective as you would like.
giantsfour  
Emil : 10/16/2013 3:30 pm : link
Another good point, the pressure speads up the decision making, creates chaos and potential mistakes even if the QB does end up getting sacked.
wow, can't spell  
Emil : 10/16/2013 3:32 pm : link
speeds, not speads
Bad execution=  
SBlue46 : 10/16/2013 3:35 pm : link
bad coaching...wonder if Eli talks to his QB coach
i think our problem is post snap reads.  
Mighty : 10/16/2013 4:24 pm : link
I really dont see any NFL offenses having WRs call out presnap reads other than occasionally if its something specifically part of the gameplan. If you play a defense that likes to give a big cushion (like we often do) then it can be in your gameplan that if the CB plays off the WR and QB give a signal to change whatever the called route is to a quick screen/slant etc. NFL Defenses do too much disguising to make reading the CBs very effective presnap. They will often show 2 or 3 different looks before the snap of the play.
RE: Anish  
AnishPatel : 10/16/2013 5:45 pm : link
In comment 11281796 Emil said:
Quote:
Very good points. I'm all for the pre-snap coverage call out as it really only takes a second. From a WR perspective I like the idea of "recommending" my own route, especially if you know you are owning a guy on a slant or a fade all day long. I can see how it can be too much for a QB to absorb. I really thought Eli and Plax had one of the best QB to WR connections in recent memory, particularly in 2008, before Plax had his firearm mishap. They had some great communication going and if I remember correctly always ran the route tree before every game. Of course, a player with the catch radius of Plax allows a QB to pretty much do whatever he wants with the football as long as he is not throwing it directly to the DB.

The post-snap reads concern me a great deal. In the case we all keep going over, Randle makes the right read based on the CBs reaction after the snap. Eli simply anticipated something that did not occur. There have been far too many of those this year and I wish I could pinpoint why.




Recommending it would be fine, but do it on the sideline when you're looking over images of coverages. Talk it over then or during practice as you prepare for the game. Talking about pre snap coverage isn't helpful. Imagine if I am the QB and you're the WR. You signal C2. In my mind I am going through so much processing so much. When you flash double high, my first thought process would be no shit! LOL. Two high, is obvious. I am going to the OC and saying that doesn't tell me anything. I know it's double high and you know it. You don't need to waste my time and confirm it. Can you imagine if every position group did that? Other WRs, TEs, and OL speaking in their terms. Buddy, Ivy, and so on. It would be a shit show with everyone stating the obvious.

That's why I would say, Eli speak or give instructions, and everyone else shut up. Let him set the protection with the center, and the center may echo calls on the OL. That's it. I personally don't want anything else. Last thing I need is to eye the play clock, set the protection, see the WRs, TEs, and hear the center coordinate the OL.

Way too much going on. KISS, keep it simple stupid. I follow that to a T. No need to complicate things especially since the critical factor is the post snap read when guys are in motion. Stating the obvious pre snap is a waste of your time and my time.

As for Plax, it's easy for him being 6'5. His catch radius is amazing. They did have good communication but even that can be knocked off in this system. The Vikings 4 int game Accorsi in his book mentioned that 2 were on Shockey and Plax. So mistakes can happen with anyone in this system. I have seen Cruz screw up last year too. He went left and Eli threw to him as if he expected a hitch. I remember it hit Carlos Rogers and he dropped it. That could have been a pick in the redzone. This system is complex enough with zero margin for error. Last thing I'd want to see is the Wrs stating the obvious to Eli. Can you imagine the delay of game penalties going up?

Change the system and get back to less emphasis on the choice and option routes.
Anish  
Emil : 10/16/2013 6:28 pm : link
Excellent points all around and we are going to have to agree to disagree on our different approaches to reading the coverage. Sure if the QB and WR call the same thing, then the QB is going to be like, thanks genius, I see that. But I would use the pick 6 as an example of why a WR should call out the coverage (even if the QB overides him and rightfully so as he is the field general). Eli clearly reads COVER 3 (as did most of the post game analysts) but the CB is playing a COVER 2 look. If Randle can communicate that to Eli then perhaps Eli does not throw that ball to the flat. It's not so much that the WR is informing the QB every snap, so much as he validating "hey yeah, I got COVER 3 over here too"...or in this case saying..."wait, I'm seeing more of a COVER 2 look here, I think this guy is going to sit in the flat." (totally transcribing inner monologue here)

Now, you can take the opposite view that if Eli reads COVER 3, which he did, and if we don't want the WR to call out the coverage he sees because it is just too much talking and too much to process (I agree that it can be a lot)then Randle cannot take the top off that route. Too me that is where the breakdown happens. QB sees one thing, WR sees another, they don't synch their reads prior to execution, WR does one thing will QB is expecting another...pick 6 and I sadly go to the fridge to drink a beer in the 1st quarter of all things.

Understand, not knocking your approach at all. It makes a lot of sense, and I prefer simpler as well. But if things are going to be that simple (i.e. WRs shut-it and run what Eli calls) then the offense literally should be run what the QB expects otherwise things are going to implode. At the end of the day (channeling my inner Rolle) the offense should be run the way Eli wants it run. He is the only one with the ball in his hands every play. If Manning IDs COVER 3, then the outside WRs cannot take the top off the coverage without somehow coordinating that with Eli. Doing so ends up exactly the way it did last Thursday with a big play for the defense. I'm all for simplyfing things and focusing on execution of the play called, especially if it cuts down on turnovers.
same page as in page 27 they're both on..  
Rsspro : 10/16/2013 6:48 pm : link
except Eli is reading a different book then him?
Presnap reads aren't enough to go by  
Gmen24 : 10/16/2013 10:09 pm : link
CBs and safeties are taught to disguise the coverage pre snap. Many teams will show a 4 shell and rotate at the snap. It is pretty easy to show cover 4/2 and rotate to a cover 3 and vice versa. Same goes for man to cover 2.

It's extremely difficult to modify your route mid route, especially if you got a different read pre snap. They really need to simplify this offense and take the guessing out of it. Expecting Eli and the receiver to make the same read on the fly is a recipe for disaster.
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