I am not sure it's effective because that takes care of the pre snap read. What about the post snap read? You going to have the WR run a route and start throwing his hands up giving the QB dropping back his post snap read? LOL. It won't work out very well. I am not a fan of hand signaling back and forth especially with the QB trying to do so much. I know as a QB I am trying to get guys lined up, battle the play clock, get the center to see what I am seeing in terms of blitzes and setting up the protection.
I am not going to have time to look at the WR unless I want to give him a hand sign. Other than that I am looking at the pre snap read and who can be coming.
The errors that are happening is my guess that it's the post snap read. The WR is reading something post snap in regards to the CB's movement and thus executing what he thinks is the proper sight adjustment. Eli's reading the post snap read in a different manner and throwing accordingly. So now you have 2 guys on different pages.
I really don't care as much with what they're showing. They can show C2, C3, or in a general read, single or double high. It's the post snap read where things get...fun. That's where the WR better be smart and see what's going on.
Very good points. I'm all for the pre-snap coverage call out as it really only takes a second. From a WR perspective I like the idea of "recommending" my own route, especially if you know you are owning a guy on a slant or a fade all day long. I can see how it can be too much for a QB to absorb. I really thought Eli and Plax had one of the best QB to WR connections in recent memory, particularly in 2008, before Plax had his firearm mishap. They had some great communication going and if I remember correctly always ran the route tree before every game. Of course, a player with the catch radius of Plax allows a QB to pretty much do whatever he wants with the football as long as he is not throwing it directly to the DB.
The post-snap reads concern me a great deal. In the case we all keep going over, Randle makes the right read based on the CBs reaction after the snap. Eli simply anticipated something that did not occur. There have been far too many of those this year and I wish I could pinpoint why.
Do you ever attribute it to the defense did a very good job
of showing one look and knowing what the QB likes to do with that look and then compensated for it? Sometimes the defense makes good plays too. Or maybe the WR needed to do a better job of communicating the route adjustment as you had suggested.
The defense clearly did a very good job of disguising the coverage, kudos to them, they did their job, our offense did not do theirs. Can't pass it off as the defense just made a play or simply outperformed the Giants offense. You have to assume the enemy is actively trying to trick you and get you to execute the way they want you to. That is what they do. My question is what is our passing game doing to counter such efforts. Pre-snap communication and post-snap reads are a very big part of it, and I think our passing game is failing on both accounts (that is what the stats and play of the field tell me).
This has been one of the most enlighting discussions for me.
I also wonder if your QB is also thinking about the need to move in the pocket because he does not trust his OL, then post-snap reads may not be as effective as you would like.
I really dont see any NFL offenses having WRs call out presnap reads other than occasionally if its something specifically part of the gameplan. If you play a defense that likes to give a big cushion (like we often do) then it can be in your gameplan that if the CB plays off the WR and QB give a signal to change whatever the called route is to a quick screen/slant etc. NFL Defenses do too much disguising to make reading the CBs very effective presnap. They will often show 2 or 3 different looks before the snap of the play.
Very good points. I'm all for the pre-snap coverage call out as it really only takes a second. From a WR perspective I like the idea of "recommending" my own route, especially if you know you are owning a guy on a slant or a fade all day long. I can see how it can be too much for a QB to absorb. I really thought Eli and Plax had one of the best QB to WR connections in recent memory, particularly in 2008, before Plax had his firearm mishap. They had some great communication going and if I remember correctly always ran the route tree before every game. Of course, a player with the catch radius of Plax allows a QB to pretty much do whatever he wants with the football as long as he is not throwing it directly to the DB.
The post-snap reads concern me a great deal. In the case we all keep going over, Randle makes the right read based on the CBs reaction after the snap. Eli simply anticipated something that did not occur. There have been far too many of those this year and I wish I could pinpoint why.
Recommending it would be fine, but do it on the sideline when you're looking over images of coverages. Talk it over then or during practice as you prepare for the game. Talking about pre snap coverage isn't helpful. Imagine if I am the QB and you're the WR. You signal C2. In my mind I am going through so much processing so much. When you flash double high, my first thought process would be no shit! LOL. Two high, is obvious. I am going to the OC and saying that doesn't tell me anything. I know it's double high and you know it. You don't need to waste my time and confirm it. Can you imagine if every position group did that? Other WRs, TEs, and OL speaking in their terms. Buddy, Ivy, and so on. It would be a shit show with everyone stating the obvious.
That's why I would say, Eli speak or give instructions, and everyone else shut up. Let him set the protection with the center, and the center may echo calls on the OL. That's it. I personally don't want anything else. Last thing I need is to eye the play clock, set the protection, see the WRs, TEs, and hear the center coordinate the OL.
Way too much going on. KISS, keep it simple stupid. I follow that to a T. No need to complicate things especially since the critical factor is the post snap read when guys are in motion. Stating the obvious pre snap is a waste of your time and my time.
As for Plax, it's easy for him being 6'5. His catch radius is amazing. They did have good communication but even that can be knocked off in this system. The Vikings 4 int game Accorsi in his book mentioned that 2 were on Shockey and Plax. So mistakes can happen with anyone in this system. I have seen Cruz screw up last year too. He went left and Eli threw to him as if he expected a hitch. I remember it hit Carlos Rogers and he dropped it. That could have been a pick in the redzone. This system is complex enough with zero margin for error. Last thing I'd want to see is the Wrs stating the obvious to Eli. Can you imagine the delay of game penalties going up?
Change the system and get back to less emphasis on the choice and option routes.
Excellent points all around and we are going to have to agree to disagree on our different approaches to reading the coverage. Sure if the QB and WR call the same thing, then the QB is going to be like, thanks genius, I see that. But I would use the pick 6 as an example of why a WR should call out the coverage (even if the QB overides him and rightfully so as he is the field general). Eli clearly reads COVER 3 (as did most of the post game analysts) but the CB is playing a COVER 2 look. If Randle can communicate that to Eli then perhaps Eli does not throw that ball to the flat. It's not so much that the WR is informing the QB every snap, so much as he validating "hey yeah, I got COVER 3 over here too"...or in this case saying..."wait, I'm seeing more of a COVER 2 look here, I think this guy is going to sit in the flat." (totally transcribing inner monologue here)
Now, you can take the opposite view that if Eli reads COVER 3, which he did, and if we don't want the WR to call out the coverage he sees because it is just too much talking and too much to process (I agree that it can be a lot)then Randle cannot take the top off that route. Too me that is where the breakdown happens. QB sees one thing, WR sees another, they don't synch their reads prior to execution, WR does one thing will QB is expecting another...pick 6 and I sadly go to the fridge to drink a beer in the 1st quarter of all things.
Understand, not knocking your approach at all. It makes a lot of sense, and I prefer simpler as well. But if things are going to be that simple (i.e. WRs shut-it and run what Eli calls) then the offense literally should be run what the QB expects otherwise things are going to implode. At the end of the day (channeling my inner Rolle) the offense should be run the way Eli wants it run. He is the only one with the ball in his hands every play. If Manning IDs COVER 3, then the outside WRs cannot take the top off the coverage without somehow coordinating that with Eli. Doing so ends up exactly the way it did last Thursday with a big play for the defense. I'm all for simplyfing things and focusing on execution of the play called, especially if it cuts down on turnovers.
CBs and safeties are taught to disguise the coverage pre snap. Many teams will show a 4 shell and rotate at the snap. It is pretty easy to show cover 4/2 and rotate to a cover 3 and vice versa. Same goes for man to cover 2.
It's extremely difficult to modify your route mid route, especially if you got a different read pre snap. They really need to simplify this offense and take the guessing out of it. Expecting Eli and the receiver to make the same read on the fly is a recipe for disaster.
That explains alot!!!!
D and D'er....like father, like son.
I am not going to have time to look at the WR unless I want to give him a hand sign. Other than that I am looking at the pre snap read and who can be coming.
The errors that are happening is my guess that it's the post snap read. The WR is reading something post snap in regards to the CB's movement and thus executing what he thinks is the proper sight adjustment. Eli's reading the post snap read in a different manner and throwing accordingly. So now you have 2 guys on different pages.
I really don't care as much with what they're showing. They can show C2, C3, or in a general read, single or double high. It's the post snap read where things get...fun. That's where the WR better be smart and see what's going on.
Oh they are confusing alright, just to themselves...
The post-snap reads concern me a great deal. In the case we all keep going over, Randle makes the right read based on the CBs reaction after the snap. Eli simply anticipated something that did not occur. There have been far too many of those this year and I wish I could pinpoint why.
The post-snap reads concern me a great deal. In the case we all keep going over, Randle makes the right read based on the CBs reaction after the snap. Eli simply anticipated something that did not occur. There have been far too many of those this year and I wish I could pinpoint why.
Recommending it would be fine, but do it on the sideline when you're looking over images of coverages. Talk it over then or during practice as you prepare for the game. Talking about pre snap coverage isn't helpful. Imagine if I am the QB and you're the WR. You signal C2. In my mind I am going through so much processing so much. When you flash double high, my first thought process would be no shit! LOL. Two high, is obvious. I am going to the OC and saying that doesn't tell me anything. I know it's double high and you know it. You don't need to waste my time and confirm it. Can you imagine if every position group did that? Other WRs, TEs, and OL speaking in their terms. Buddy, Ivy, and so on. It would be a shit show with everyone stating the obvious.
That's why I would say, Eli speak or give instructions, and everyone else shut up. Let him set the protection with the center, and the center may echo calls on the OL. That's it. I personally don't want anything else. Last thing I need is to eye the play clock, set the protection, see the WRs, TEs, and hear the center coordinate the OL.
Way too much going on. KISS, keep it simple stupid. I follow that to a T. No need to complicate things especially since the critical factor is the post snap read when guys are in motion. Stating the obvious pre snap is a waste of your time and my time.
As for Plax, it's easy for him being 6'5. His catch radius is amazing. They did have good communication but even that can be knocked off in this system. The Vikings 4 int game Accorsi in his book mentioned that 2 were on Shockey and Plax. So mistakes can happen with anyone in this system. I have seen Cruz screw up last year too. He went left and Eli threw to him as if he expected a hitch. I remember it hit Carlos Rogers and he dropped it. That could have been a pick in the redzone. This system is complex enough with zero margin for error. Last thing I'd want to see is the Wrs stating the obvious to Eli. Can you imagine the delay of game penalties going up?
Change the system and get back to less emphasis on the choice and option routes.
Now, you can take the opposite view that if Eli reads COVER 3, which he did, and if we don't want the WR to call out the coverage he sees because it is just too much talking and too much to process (I agree that it can be a lot)then Randle cannot take the top off that route. Too me that is where the breakdown happens. QB sees one thing, WR sees another, they don't synch their reads prior to execution, WR does one thing will QB is expecting another...pick 6 and I sadly go to the fridge to drink a beer in the 1st quarter of all things.
Understand, not knocking your approach at all. It makes a lot of sense, and I prefer simpler as well. But if things are going to be that simple (i.e. WRs shut-it and run what Eli calls) then the offense literally should be run what the QB expects otherwise things are going to implode. At the end of the day (channeling my inner Rolle) the offense should be run the way Eli wants it run. He is the only one with the ball in his hands every play. If Manning IDs COVER 3, then the outside WRs cannot take the top off the coverage without somehow coordinating that with Eli. Doing so ends up exactly the way it did last Thursday with a big play for the defense. I'm all for simplyfing things and focusing on execution of the play called, especially if it cuts down on turnovers.
It's extremely difficult to modify your route mid route, especially if you got a different read pre snap. They really need to simplify this offense and take the guessing out of it. Expecting Eli and the receiver to make the same read on the fly is a recipe for disaster.