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Why do fans want Fewell gone?

mrvax : 10/17/2013 9:05 am
It seems like no one who wants Fewell fired pays any attention to the basically crappy group of players he was dealt to work with.

Specifically, this defense's strong point was to rush the passer. Well for 2 years running, the front 4 cannot get to the passer. They are not good enough for whatever reason. There goes your defense.

Send a blitz! Right? Name a LB or D-back that can actually get there with any consistency? They don't have any.

With a crappy pass rush and perhaps the worst collection of linebackers in the NFL, no defensive coordinator can succeed at his job. "Changing things up" or whatever isn't going to negate the horrific time of possession mismatch the defense sees weekly.

IMO, a coach should be afforded at least "average" players to game plan with before you fire him. Simply replacing Fewell with some other guy and not addressing the talent level (the real problem) solves nothing.



I don't think he's the root of the problem  
jcn56 : 10/17/2013 9:06 am : link
I don't want him to stay because I think we can do better. But I agree with your general premise, that you're getting a lot of 'Fire Fewell!' posts when in fact he's just an average coach with below average talent (in general) getting slightly below average results.
I agree jcn  
mrvax : 10/17/2013 9:10 am : link
I don't think he's great either. I'm thinking that if the Giants do make a lot of changes in the off season, they might want to keep Fewell and a few minor coaches around for a year or so for continuity.
I just think he is a pretty bad coach.....  
Italianju : 10/17/2013 9:13 am : link
from schemes to adjustments. Im not blind enough to be putting a 100% of the blame on him, but i think he deserves a lot of it. And i agree that i just think we can easily do better.
Eh, continuity is a good thing when you're OK at something  
jcn56 : 10/17/2013 9:13 am : link
or if you find yourself changing too often. If Fewell was in his first year, maybe.

I don't think Fewell qualifies as good enough to keep around for continuity's sake. At this point, I would rather see an overhaul of the coaching staff all the way around to see if change helps cure some of the malaise that's fallen the past couple of seasons.
Fewell ran mediocre-to-bad defenses in Buffalo  
Greg from LI : 10/17/2013 9:16 am : link
He's run mediocre-to-bad defenses here. They can do better.
I think he is in over his head.  
chitt17 : 10/17/2013 9:17 am : link
No creativity.
Here's why I think Fewell has underperformed  
mattlawson : 10/17/2013 9:17 am : link
say what you want about front 4 needing to win, but our blitzs do not get home. when you bring more than 4 in this system you had better get a free blitzer. his rushers are completely swallowed up by the defense. that has not changed. I saw one free rusher all last game. one.

Whether or not we have the personnel to run man more than they do, teams shred us with their TE. We have not had an answer for that in years.

The defense gives up it the offense doesn't perform. I think that is an identity problem and should be addressed by the coaching staff if veterans are not leading vocally or by example. our defensive leaders have STUNK this season, and Fewell hasn't had the gumption to use our DLine depth to try and solve that problem. Using Jenkins instead of Tuck for example and relying on one of our amazing DT's to get the push.

Our run D has been very good this year. They've done a good job with that, but who is that on? I'll give Reese credit for addressing it in the offseason, and just having better personnel at DT.
Because he sux.  
Randy in CT : 10/17/2013 9:19 am : link
Stupid.
Well, I completely  
nygsb42 : 10/17/2013 9:22 am : link
agree with jcn. And as a whole fans are quick to fire him!, Cut HIM! when things are bad. The general public always wants a scapegoat.
Because they think he's the reason the defense is so soft  
nomad1986 : 10/17/2013 9:24 am : link
and passive. But he's not he's just doing what he's told to do. No different than Lewis or Sheridan. Spagnuolo brought Jim Johnson's defense with him and while he didn't have free reign he had enough leeway to play a much more aggressive style. He had somewhat better players but the 2007/2008 Giants defense wasn't exactly filled with All Pro's either. He ran a different style. See Corey Webster under Lewsi & Sheridan vs under Spagnuolo. Tom Coughlin has always had a problem with defense. He had 4 DC's in his last 4 years in Jacksonville and Perry Fewell was his DB coach in Jacksonville. He was doing what he told then and it didn't work he's doing what he's told now and it doesn't work.
he brings nothing fresh to the table...  
GMAN4LIFE : 10/17/2013 9:26 am : link
we need a change
How much input  
Bill in UT : 10/17/2013 9:26 am : link
does he have as far as personnel? I don't know how the Giants run things. Does he have a say on draft day, or about free agents? If he has no say in personnel, I guess you have to blame the FO/HC more. But I'm sure he has a say in who gets playing time.
because his schemes stink. and his defense has adequate at best since  
Victor in CT : 10/17/2013 9:28 am : link
he has been here? The d line rose up for that glorious 6 week stretch in 2011. Other than that he has employed soft defenses that can't get a stop when it counts. 4 years is long enough.

That said, the D has been serviceable this year. If the O wasn't such a mess they would be 3-3.
he is average  
eleven : 10/17/2013 9:32 am : link
But I think the Giants organization needs to stop with the 'he did ok' or 'its passable' or 'not that bad' type attitude in regards to our defense. There are coordinators out there who change the culture into a lockdown culture overnight. Carroll, Sutton, and Williams for example transform attitudes immediately. I keep hearing 'our de played well and only gave up 21 to the bears'. That is not the hallmark of a great defense. When Simms would throw picks it wasn't a big deal because the Dee stopped the drive in its tracks. We give our Dee a pass now when they give up points. Awful mindset. It starts with Tom but man I would love a coordinator who was out for blood. No bend not break garbage.
Think Fewell  
TMS : 10/17/2013 9:33 am : link
is very limited as a defensive planner and innovator. He learned from Dick Juaron in Buffalo who was a defensive guy himself. All he knows he one defense and his skill set is that of a position coach exclusively. He has a good report with the players that is why Coughlin hired him after the Sheridan nightmare. He might do all right as a HC with the right cooridinators for that reason. We need a defensively innovative DC or HC like Spagnuolo to get the most out of these players.
Not just bad, but historically bad defenses  
mikeinbloomfield : 10/17/2013 9:33 am : link
Even in 2011, his defense during the regular season was worse than average. Thank god for Eli, and being able to sneak in at 9-7.

And I'm sorry, but the players are not the problem. Do you really think he has had below average players his whole time here? His schemes are uncreative, and for some reason offenses don't have problems with his blitzes. I can't remember the last time someone came entirely free at the opposing QB. Sure does happen to us a lot though.
tc, fewell and gilbride  
aquidneck : 10/17/2013 9:39 am : link
sink or swim together. I want them all gone (or in the event they go on a miraculous 9 or 10 game win steak) all back.
The Giants defense the last 3 seasons  
Jay on the Island : 10/17/2013 9:40 am : link
has been ranked 30th or lower. Also it always seems that the defense can never get an important stop when needed. Look at 2011 we won so many games late in the fourth due to Eli's heroics which was often needed due to the defense blowing the lead.

Fewell is very poor at making adjustments and he doesn't build his scheme around his players strengths. He expects his players to fit into his scheme which is exactly what Tim Lewis did.
I don't care if we look elsewhere.  
arcarsenal : 10/17/2013 9:42 am : link
But for fucks sake. Let the "Spags would have gotten the most out of his players and Fewell doesn't" nonsense go already.

If St. Steven was so amazing at getting the most out of his players, why was his Saints defense historically bad last year? Why has he gone from HC to DC to "consultant" since leaving here? Stop treating the guy like some freaking defensive genius. He's not.
"It seems the defense can never get an important stop when needed"  
arcarsenal : 10/17/2013 9:44 am : link
Except for the fact they've done it multiple times this year and the offense has failed to capitalize.
8 sacks in the last 11 games.  
Bogey : 10/17/2013 9:44 am : link
.
I didn't read the whole thread but we have not been able to blitz  
dangerousrappingfrog : 10/17/2013 9:46 am : link
effectively in all the time he has been here. I watch as many NFL games as I can every week and every team, regardless of what kind of talent they have can blitz better than we can. I have seen college and HS teams that blitz better than us. Frankly, it is pathetic and embarrassing.

In today's nfl, with it being a passing league and the rules they way there in regards to coverage, you must be able to blitz effectively. We have not been able to in years.

Now, to the bend don't break philosophy: Scoring is up in the NFL in this era. There are more big plays than ever that often lead to scores. Offenses have advantages they have never had in the past. Bending/Not Break does not work. The longer the offense is on the field, the more chances they have to break a big play and score. The advantage is in their favor, not the defenses. Counting on turnovers to win in the NFL is just plain idiotic. It is the single most unpredictable thing you can rely on to win a game and yet that is the focus of you defense? Think about that for a second.

he gets out coached  
deadkurtrulz : 10/17/2013 9:49 am : link
every single week. In the NFL coaching is everything. Every QB we face knows exactly what to expect and when. The Giant defense has been ranked at the bottom since he came here. I am amazed he lasted this long.
chasing $$$  
area junc : 10/17/2013 9:51 am : link
Spags is showing what taking the bottom-feeding jobs get you. I thought he was a DC-only and it was a big mistake taking the STL job when he left. we were offering the highest-paid DC job in the league. STL is a small market team with terrible ownership compared to what hes used to. His D was destroyed by injuries.

then he goes to NO back to his natural position (defensive coordinator) but its the aftermath of Bouty-Gate where everything was rotten. Another bad situation.

POOF his stock is way down.

give this guy a stable environment as a defensive coordinator and hes good. i'd take him back in a heartbeat
Did you watch the chargers Monday night?  
chiro56 : 10/17/2013 9:53 am : link
Their personal is not very good on D . One or two play makers. Mediocre linebackers, poor d line. Yet he schemed the colts with blitzes and confused Luck with different looks and shut down colts offense . Pagano is a good coordinator. That's what we need..
Heh. So the injury excuse or bad personnel is ok for Spags.  
arcarsenal : 10/17/2013 9:53 am : link
But not for Fewell.

Got it. Just trying to keep score here.
because he's mediocre  
chris r : 10/17/2013 9:54 am : link
and we should be aiming to get the best guys in here possible.
Fewell has presided over Historically bad NFL and franchise Defenses  
Chef : 10/17/2013 9:54 am : link
That is all that need to be said.. You can cherry pick good and bad performances all you want it is the bottom line that is most important and this defense sucks year in and out with Fewell at the helm..
I think he was not given  
GMANinDC : 10/17/2013 9:59 am : link
the proper personnel to effectively run a good defense system after the SB win. The DT's were terrible up until this year. The LB'ers were terrible and still are..The CB's have been beat up and unhealthy most of the last 2 years.

Up until this year, it seems he got better personnel to work with but the absence of a pass rush is still hindering the production of the defense..

people still clamor for Spags but if you really look at the personnel he had and what Fewell has, it's no comparison..Strahan, Tuck, Osi on the ends are a terror..And you had Cofield, Alford, Robbins etc as the DT's. That was formidable..

That being said, it wouldn't bother me if he left, by i bet the next guy is going to have the same problems unless JPP find his way back to form and they get another 2 or 3 DE's on this roster..
i want him gone  
Hades07 : 10/17/2013 10:01 am : link
Because I never wanted him hired. I thought he was a poor fit for the defensive talent at the time.
its a smaller sample size for spags  
area junc : 10/17/2013 10:03 am : link
he is a defensive coordinator only. lousy head coach. said that when he left.

he has only 1 year to analyze as a Defensive Coordinator, since he left - last year with the Saints without Payton. basically a "give up" year for the Saints.

he was terrible implementing a new scheme with bad players in a bad situation. i'm not shoveling dirt on him just yet as a defensive coordinator

meanwhile fewell's struggled for 4 years here with various personnel + health situations
Arcarsenal is right. Enough with the Spags nonsense already.  
Victor in CT : 10/17/2013 10:04 am : link
He flopped in STL and in NO.

I also don't think it's a good idea for keep TC with new coordinators. This is looking more and more like a rebuilding project. 10 yrs, 2 SBs and being 68 leads me to say thanks Tom, welcome to the Ring of Honor, see you at the HOF. 10 years in the NFL is enough for anyone. TC will be 70+ by the time they are ready to be serious contenders again.
$$$$$$  
area junc : 10/17/2013 10:04 am : link
and let me say i am very disappointed in steve i think he derailed his career with the decisions he made, chasing glory
victor  
area junc : 10/17/2013 10:07 am : link
he flopped in Stl as a Head Coach - I.E. he was not running the defense like a DC

he flopped in NO in the year following the bounty-gate sanctions. big deal

the one thing weird is the reports he was acting like a dick at the team facilities. that is not the spags we knew here..
GMAN, if you think  
Randy in CT : 10/17/2013 10:18 am : link
being at the bottom of the league defensively in consecutive years is due to personnel, then I don't know what to tell you. Defending Fewell is amazingly suspect.
My feeling is,  
Doomster : 10/17/2013 10:19 am : link
he has not put guys in position to win.....he has not been able to make adjustments....

For the life of me, outside of a 6 game stretch, this defense has been a joke.....the bend don't break philosophy, and hope for a turnover, keeps the offense off the field....

There has been no consistency to this defense....

The comparison to Spag's is a fantasy....he was in the right place at the right time.....to come back to this defense, that basically has no personnel, is just a pipe dream...

The one thing about a Spag's defense was, it gambled, it presented different formations to attack from, that created confusion for the opposing OL, and helped to create more pressure on the OL.....
RE: victor  
Victor in CT : 10/17/2013 10:19 am : link
In comment 11282973 area junc said:
Quote:
he flopped in Stl as a Head Coach - I.E. he was not running the defense like a DC

he flopped in NO in the year following the bounty-gate sanctions. big deal

the one thing weird is the reports he was acting like a dick at the team facilities. that is not the spags we knew here..


You and others have all been talking him up as the great man, or as arcarsenal said, "St.Steve". Yet you have nothing but excuses for his failures. When he came here in 2007, the Giants were loaded on the DL, had a good MLB in Pierce, decent OLBs and enough vets in the 2ndary to help Webster and Ross come along. If he flopped in STL and NO for lack of talent and all those difficult extenuating circumstances you mentioned, what do you think will happen here? With Tuck gone, Kiwi fading, JPP disappointing, no LBs, Webster, Ross gone, Brown coming off ACL surgery?
Sign Spags or Don't  
AnishPatel : 10/17/2013 10:24 am : link
sign him. I want the next DC to be just as aggressive. Spag's use of various 43 fronts was great. He knew how to utilize players like James Butler and Michael Johnson. His scheme for us worked perfectly here because he was aggressive, and disguised his coverages.

I want that again. I don't care if it's Spags or not. Plus it's not like we are too good for him. Tim Lewis got thrown out of Pittsburgh, and we signed him. Hufangel and Sheridan didn't coach before and we gave them their first shot. It's not like Spags shit in the bed here. I am willing to give Spags another shot and see what he can do. If not, then get another coordinator who can be aggressive.

RE: GMAN, if you think  
Chef : 10/17/2013 10:25 am : link
In comment 11283005 Randy in CT said:
Quote:
being at the bottom of the league defensively in consecutive years is due to personnel, then I don't know what to tell you. Defending Fewell is amazingly suspect.


Amen..
Randy...  
arcarsenal : 10/17/2013 10:28 am : link
Point me to a list of defenses that performed above average with an offense turning the ball over at a historic rate.

Thanks.
RE: Sign Spags or Don't  
Victor in CT : 10/17/2013 10:29 am : link
In comment 11283018 AnishPatel said:
Quote:
sign him. I want the next DC to be just as aggressive. Spag's use of various 43 fronts was great. He knew how to utilize players like James Butler and Michael Johnson. His scheme for us worked perfectly here because he was aggressive, and disguised his coverages.

I want that again. I don't care if it's Spags or not. Plus it's not like we are too good for him. Tim Lewis got thrown out of Pittsburgh, and we signed him. Hufangel and Sheridan didn't coach before and we gave them their first shot. It's not like Spags shit in the bed here. I am willing to give Spags another shot and see what he can do. If not, then get another coordinator who can be aggressive.


AP, I agree that whoever it is, he has to bring an aggressive philosophy.
Fewell has had shit to work with the past two years.  
Jim in Forest Hills : 10/17/2013 10:29 am : link
Front four get no pass rush. They have no LBs.
Maybe he should  
AnishPatel : 10/17/2013 10:32 am : link
look up blitzing. His blitz packages suck and no one gets home. That's when he decides to actually blitz. It wasn't the LBs giving up home run balls last season at a big time rate.

But hey, this is perfect, his contract will expire, and we probably won't extend him. So it's perfect ending. Someones head is going to roll and most likely will be his first.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/17/2013 10:37 am : link
Here's the thing.

No DC is going to be able to field an above average D with an offense turning the ball over 4x every single game and what is mostly a pile of shit at linebacker on top of half our CB's being injured and DE's not playing up to par.

Like I keep saying.. if you want to replace Fewell, that's fine. But don't expect much better results unless the personnel improves and the offense gets their collective heads out of their asses.
Its not a question of whether to fire him or not.  
Giants Fan in Steelers Land : 10/17/2013 10:38 am : link
Its to resign or not. And at this point what has he done to warrant a resigning? I think he is the definition of average when it comes to coaching just like I think "Bend and not Break" is an average defensive philosophy.
I want Fewell gone because  
Emil : 10/17/2013 10:43 am : link
I don't like the overall passive defensive philosophy. When rules were different and defensive backs could get away with more physical play, a more passive and arguably "vanilla" approach made sense. Defend against the deep ball and hit the receiver immedietly and hard when he catches the ball. Now defense is played best when you get guys causing disruption in the offensive backfield. You see how often teams go max protect and quick drop on the Giants. Your front 4 is not going to get there, especially not off the edge on a consistent enough basis.

I see no agressive play out of this defense, terrible blitz disguise and design, and painful predictability. I watch other teams (like the Jets, Patriots, Bills, and Houston) and I see multiple fronts, agressive play, agressive schemes, active players, and a completely different attitude. I don't place 100% of the blame on Fewell. I also am disappointed with our defensive captains. They need to be held responsible for the lack of emmotion out there.


Even when he had players performing well (JPP monster year in 2011) the Defense was still near the bottom of the league.

Coaches don't earn lifetime passes  
Joe in Cambridge : 10/17/2013 10:45 am : link
Fewell hasn't done enough to earn the opportunity to coach here again. Just like anyone else on the team (except David Diehl) he's got to produce or start packing.
arc,  
Randy in CT : 10/17/2013 10:46 am : link
there is consistency over the years that Fewell has been here regarding how bad his defenses have been--TO's notwithstanding.
Some Perry Fewell highlights  
ghost718 : 10/17/2013 10:47 am : link
- 3 man rushes with our best player at Nose Tackle

- NASCAR Package doing nothing,no changes being made

- Guys watching the QB,not rushing, and waving there hands like this is a volleyball tournament(there was more of this in past years)

- Defensive ends dropping into coverage

- Defense tackles dropping into coverage

- Jayron Hosley blitzing Cam Newton(I think with Hosley on his back,Cam could still run a 4.5) How about sending Prince on a blitz?

So we're gonna need a new defensive coordinator.


arc  
Greg from LI : 10/17/2013 10:48 am : link
I agree that there isn't anyone - Dick LeBeau, Bill Belichick, Buddy Ryan, Bud Carson, whoever - that could turn this sad-sack bunch into a top defense. I do, however, think that a better DC could at least drag them into mediocrity.
This is  
AnishPatel : 10/17/2013 10:48 am : link
why it's a great time to change both systems, add some better talent, and re-tool that way. Both systems need to go. It seems like every QB has had a system change. Ryan, Rivers, Ben twice, and Romo. I am ready for a new system. I'd hate to have Eli in this system until he retires. My wish is to see him in another system. One where you don't have agida when the ball is thrown, and the tv camera pans over and you're hoping to god you see a Giants player in the tv frame. Those are the worst. You see the ball go one way, and when the tv camera pans over no Giants are in the god damn tv frame. Those plays are just brutal to watch.

That int in the KC game this year was like a center fielder back tracking to catch a fly ball. No giant in the tv frame, and 2 KC players, with one back tracking to catch a lazy fly ball. Fucking brutal to watch.

RE: This is  
Victor in CT : 10/17/2013 10:49 am : link
In comment 11283107 AnishPatel said:
Quote:
why it's a great time to change both systems, add some better talent, and re-tool that way. Both systems need to go. It seems like every QB has had a system change. Ryan, Rivers, Ben twice, and Romo. I am ready for a new system. I'd hate to have Eli in this system until he retires. My wish is to see him in another system. One where you don't have agida when the ball is thrown, and the tv camera pans over and you're hoping to god you see a Giants player in the tv frame. Those are the worst. You see the ball go one way, and when the tv camera pans over no Giants are in the god damn tv frame. Those plays are just brutal to watch.

That int in the KC game this year was like a center fielder back tracking to catch a fly ball. No giant in the tv frame, and 2 KC players, with one back tracking to catch a lazy fly ball. Fucking brutal to watch.


Agree again. It's time.
Arc  
Jay on the Island : 10/17/2013 10:50 am : link
Do you honestly feel that Fewell deserves to keep his job? I'm not calling you out I just want to know if so and why? I agree with you that Spags was overrated but Fewell has done a terrible job here and the defense played poorly the previous two seasons when the offense wasn't turning the ball over a lot. The Giants had the 30th ranked defense in 2011 despite JPP playing at a defensive player of the year level.

There should be some very intriguing options for the DC position this year with some head coaches like Jim Schwartz, Ron Rivera, and possibly Rex Ryan Leslie Frazier losing their jobs. There are also some talented position coaches that deserve DC jobs.
I'm about to lose my mind here  
GMANinDC : 10/17/2013 10:51 am : link
Somebody please tell me which LB'er is fast enough or healthy enough to blitz!!!..Tell me, which defensive stud we have on this team, outside of JPP!!!..It's the same dumb arguments all the time..

As much as people bitch about how bad the personnel we have on this team, how the hell can you bitch about how they perform!!!

I'm not saying Fewell is very good..He actually did win here..if he is fired, so be it..I'm not to impressed with myself..But lets not act like he had a world of talent at skill positions or even somewhat mediocre talent..

BTW, how about not having a bazillion turnovers the last 2 years..maybe that might keep some heat of the defense a few moments so they can catch their breath..
I'd walk on  
AnishPatel : 10/17/2013 10:53 am : link
hot coals if we somehow got Rex Ryan as our DC. I love his aggressive nature of his system. I doubt that would happen, but man that would be great. Stabilize that side of the ball once and for all. I doubt any team would hire him as a HC either. So he won't be going anywhere.
I think Rex would do a fine job  
Greg from LI : 10/17/2013 10:54 am : link
But goddamn that would be a tough pill to swallow, a Ryan coaching with the Giants.
arc  
GMANinDC : 10/17/2013 10:56 am : link
Unfortunately, people are not looking at this team realistically and the lack of talent on it. They see names like Kiwi, Tuck JPP and think they should be world beaters but unfortunately, they are all 3 playing like shit..

So how the hell can a team play good defense when the pass rush is non-existent and the QB has about 8 seconds to throw a pass???..

And to think people want to send a CB in to blitz..You blizt Prince, who the going to cover the WR going free????
If the D-Line was so stacked in 07,  
Mike L. : 10/17/2013 10:57 am : link
what went wrong in 06? Weren't Strahan, Osi, and Robbins around then? Webster couldn't get on the field until Spags came along. The D in 07 and 08 played at an extemely high level for most games. The D since has played mostly mediocre or poor for the last 4 years. Yes, if the O was playing at a high level we might be 3-3. Hmmmmm, sounds a lot like last year - so 8-8 or 9-7 is acceptable now? All one needs to look at is 0-6. The O has struggled and we can't win a game. Took a lead late in the 3rd qtr against Philly - they came right back on the next possesion and we're behind again. Tied the Bears at 7 and 14, what was the result after each kickoff? Bottom line is the D needs to perform must better than it has on a cosistent basis. I still think the O gets it going this year, not sure about the D, haven't been for the last 4 years.
Philosophically speaking...  
PeterS : 10/17/2013 10:57 am : link
Fewell's defenses are not "attack-oriented" but rather "read-and-react". This takes the bite out of a defense and they become catchers instead of hitters. It goes against the grain of being a defensive player.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/17/2013 10:58 am : link
Jay.. I just think he is in an impossible situation right now. It's literally impossible to field a good defense under these circumstances. How many points have been scored on us this year without the defense even being on the field between pick 6's, punt return TD's and fumbles returned for TD's?

Justin Tuck is nothing more than a name now. He's not a good DE anymore. He's average at best. JPP is still working his way back from surgery. We lost Stevie Brown in preseason, we've been without half of our CB's all year, our linebackers are so bad that it took Jon Beason ONE game to look exponentially better than anyone else.

You could put LeBeau on the sidelines, you could put Belichick there.. whoever you want. I guarantee you this defense will not look good.

I'm not attached to Fewell.. if they want to move on, that's fine. But you simply cannot survive this situation as a DC and field an above average DC no matter who you are. The offense has turned the ball over so much more than any other team in football by a MILE.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/17/2013 10:59 am : link
The Giants would never hire Rex Ryan. It's not even worth discussion.

I think he's a fantastic defensive coach but it'll never happen.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/17/2013 11:00 am : link
Mike.. Osi missed 5 games in 2006.
Greg,  
AnishPatel : 10/17/2013 11:01 am : link
I'd do it in a second and not think twice about it. He is that good of a DC. His aggressive nature is what we need and have missed. I like how his defense won't sit back and they will dictate terms.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/17/2013 11:04 am : link
But even Rex Ryan actually has talent defensively. Wilkerson is the 2nd best 3-4 DE in football. David Harris is an outstanding LBer. Sheldon Richardson has been excellent. There's a lot of young talent there. And in the past, he had the best CB in football which allowed him a lot of flexibility.

Rex has always had very strong talent on at least one level of his defense. I'd argue that all the Giants have right now is depth at DT. Outside of that, there are no real strengths.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/17/2013 11:05 am : link
Rex runs a ton of Cover 0. He loves to overload one side.

How confident would anyone here be in the Giants trying to play that way with this personnel?
Yeah sucking  
AnishPatel : 10/17/2013 11:10 am : link
has give them a chance to collect blue chip prospects. However, his Xs and Os and ability to create pressure is much superior to Fewell's or any other DC we had, Sheridan and Tim Lewis included.

That's what I want. That's we need on this team. Not rush 4 and pray for the best. Ryan's blitz packages are awesome. Just watching it makes me shake my head with the shit he can do. He sucks as a HC but as a DC he has talent.

If he gets fired, we need to hire him. That's a DC you don't let go without pitching him an offer. Even with less talent he will still blitz.

We relied on the front 4 and now we are dead in the water. Fewell isn't creative enough or talented enough as a DC to come up with creative blitz packages that can at least try to get pressure and beat the pass protection.

All you see is a LB blitz and then get absorbed by the OL. The one time someone got home, JW, against Cutler, and Cutler had to throw the ball for an incomplete pass. That was good. We need a lot more of that but he is not creative enough to manufacture pressure.
Here's the thing about talent.  
Cam in MO : 10/17/2013 11:12 am : link
If you don't have:

1. Consistent pressure with a 4 man rush

2. a MLB that has the quicks and the skills to cover the deep/mid middle of the field

and

3. Safeties that are good in zone coverage (don't give up the homerun and take good angles when a short pass is caught)

Why in the world would you even think about running your defense out of a base cover-2?

I would say that the coaches probably expected to have #1, but unless they're watching different games than everyone else, there's no way they think they have #2 and #3- and haven't had them for 4 years.

As I see it- yes, obviously talent plays a role- but you can't expect to be good when you keep trying to put square pegs into round holes.

It makes no sense. Why hasn't the scheme been adjusted to match the talent? That's how you get the most out of the guys you have. That's how players that are JAG can actually look good.

Players aren't just a product of their talent. They are also a product of their system. This goes for ANY player.

And with Fewell, I don't believe the system is getting the most out of the talent that it has (not that the talent is all world by any means).


Why do you want Fewell to stay?????  
dguy901 : 10/17/2013 11:12 am : link
There isn't a single team in the NFL, other than the Giants, that wouldn't replace a DC with the results of Fewell over a 3 year period! It is difficult at best to execute a bend don't break defensive scheme and not telegraph overloads and blitzes! Especially now that there are more teams using the run option play. JMHO.
The words 'aggressive' and 'attacking' have to be the most  
jcn56 : 10/17/2013 11:13 am : link
mis-used words in the football dictionary.

People automatically look at a defense's success and say 'see, there's a D that is aggressive'. When the personnel and matchups merit it, a good DC is aggressive. When they don't, they have to balance that with enough of a blanket to make sure they don't get burnt by the big play.

I've seen the zone blitz get cursed enough times that I've long lost count, but that one comes courtesy of one of those 'aggressive' DCs, LeBeau. On Sunday against the Saints, Belichick took down the aggressiveness a notch and kept them to a respectable point/yard total.

We blitz plenty, but the blitzes don't come home. It's possible we have poorly designed blitzes, just like it's possible that with our personnel there is no such thing as a well designed blitz.

Again, not trying to prolong Fewell's stay here. I think he's had his moments, but it's time to try something else. It's just that replacing the DC is not going to have some magical transformative effect on the defense, because it's more than just the scheme at this point.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/17/2013 11:18 am : link
Cam.. so what "scheme" do you think matches the talent (if you even want to call it that) ?

In the past, people ALWAYS complained that Fewell played too much zone and played 10 yards off. This year, he's playing much more man and he's playing a lot more press because he knows the front 4 can't get there. He's trying different things but not much is working. We are seriously lacking the personnel.

It would also help if we could blitz some DB's but we're so thin there now that it's hard to even do that. Hill is a guy who I think can blitz but we're already back to playing Rolle out of position because Ross, Hosley and Webster all haven't been able to play (and Ross is done for the year).
The D  
fkap : 10/17/2013 11:28 am : link
has kept us in some games this year. They've blown it, too. Overall, though, Fewell D hasn't been the issue. a suck ass O has.

In the past, it's been a little difficult to see that the O has let the team down, but this year it's glaringly obvious. No matter the D, this team is still 0-6.

Fewell may have, and may still, deserved hate, but this year, the Fewell hate is running on memories of years past. Watch, he'll be the scapegoat for the year, and TC/Gilbride will keep their jobs, and next year will be the same inconsistency they've always brought, but we'll have a better record, and everyone will blame Fewell for missed opportunities.
Here are the Giants Defensive rankings since 2008  
mikeinbloomfield : 10/17/2013 11:31 am : link
2008
YDS: 5
PTS: 5

2009
YDS: 13
PTS: 30

2010
YDS: 7
PTS: 17

2011
YDS: 27
PTS: 25

2012
YDS: 31
PTS: 12

2013
YDS: 24
PTS: 32

And I'm sorry, if you think three years with rankings like that are enough for Fewell to keep his job, then I don't know what to tell you.

And the argument about turnovers doesn't really hold water. We are still ranked 24th in yards allowed, even with all the interceptions.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/17/2013 11:36 am : link
The argument about turnovers doesn't really hold water? Seriously?

You don't think putting the defense on the field 4-5 extra times per game is going to result in more yards and more points given up?

Again. Point me to a defense that has performed at a high level with an offense that led the league in turnovers offensively. I keep asking for one and no one can give it to me. It's nearly impossible to do in this league. Especially the way it is now. You can't turn the ball over like this an expect to win football games.
As far as the great Spags goes  
mrvax : 10/17/2013 11:37 am : link
his defense fell apart late in the 2008 season. Just when they needed them to step up, they shit the bed.

Who do you realistically want to see replace Fewell if he does get the axe? Spags again?
Better yet  
Arcanum : 10/17/2013 11:47 am : link
Why would anyone want him to stay ?
.  
arcarsenal : 10/17/2013 11:49 am : link


2012: Philadelphia Eagles - 37 giveaways, 29th in points allowed
2011: Tampa Bay Buccaneers - 40 giveaways, 32nd in points allowed
2010: New York Giants - 42 giveaways, 17th in points allowed
2009: Detroit Lions - 41 giveaways, 32nd in points allowed
2008: San Francisco 49ers - 35 giveaways, 23rd in points allowed

Ironically, it was Perry Fewell's 2010 defense that withstood an offense that led the NFL in giveaways better than any other over the last 5 seasons. But you can see the obvious correlation.
RE: Randy...  
shabu : 10/17/2013 11:50 am : link
In comment 11283031 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Point me to a list of defenses that performed above average with an offense turning the ball over at a historic rate.

Thanks.



um according to espn stats we were 3rd in takeaways last year yet our defense was horrible . . .
Cam  
GMANinDC : 10/17/2013 11:50 am : link
Coughlin and Gilbride's offense has the same issues. They don't change their schemes regardless of who is on the field and what talent level they have..

Remember they had Jacobs running plays designed for derrick ward. They had Hixon running plays designed for Plax..This is what most coordinators do.

So if your going to hit Fewell for that, then the same applies the head coach and OC..
I don't care if it's Spags or anyone else.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/17/2013 11:51 am : link
I'm just ready for a fresh start.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/17/2013 11:52 am : link
Try again, shabu.. that wasn't what I asked.

And the 2012 Giants gave up less points than more than half the teams in football. So if they were "horrible", so was most of the league.
Because he sucks.  
Geomon : 10/17/2013 11:59 am : link
I need another reason?
We were  
PaulBlakeTSU : 10/17/2013 12:01 pm : link
always terrible at linebacker, but we have had a strong defensive line and a formidable secondary (injuries or not) for the last few years.

How many times did we hear from Rolle that our defense was never on the same page (much like how our offense is now)? THat is inexcusable for a team that had so many similar players on the defense and the same DC and HC.

Our third down defense has completely gone to shit. In 2010, we had the best conversion rate in the league at 31.7%. IN 2011, we fell to 17th (38.2%), and we were 30th in 2012 (42.4%) and we are again 30th this season (48.9%).

We have 5 sacks this year. That's good for dead last in the NFL and we haven't even had our bye yet. We have 7 takeaways. That's good for 14th in the NFC and tied for 25th in the NFL. We are tied for 20th with 5 other teams in forced fumbles, tied for 22nd in interceptions, 19th in passes deflected

Furthermore, for years our defense has been terrible at scoring. They don't score defensive touch downs. People can say that defensive scoring is fluky-- and to an extent it is. But compared with what other defenses are doing, the Giants are an embarrassment. The defense seemingly never gets in the end zone. And if it is fluky, you'd think the Giants would luck their way to the top part of the league somehow.

I compiled our ranks in key defensive categories since Fewell took over. Maybe some stats are better than others, and I'm sure there are other key metrics to look at. But there was only so much room to make the chart work and I didn't want to look up any more numbers, ha.

Quote:

Year---DVOA*-ppg-Pts/drv--3dDwnCv--scks--Tkawy--DefTD----PenYds
2013---24----32---T29-----30-------32----26-----T24***-----T27
2012---16---T12----22-----30-------22-----3-----T20****-----21
2011---19----25----22-----17--------3-----8-----T20*****----23
2010----3----17----T8**----1--------5-----1-----T29******---25

* our weighted Defense rank was worse every season (WEIGHTED DEFENSE is adjusted so that earlier games in the season become gradually less important. It better reflects how the team was playing at the end of the season.)
** with 5 other teams
***with 9 teams, so tied for last
**** with 4 other teams, 8 were worse
***** with 8 other teams, 4 were worse
****** with 3 other teams, so tied for last

Here is what I posted a few weeks ago breaking down defensive scoring. Keep in mind the Giants haven't scored since then.

Quote:
The Giants
PaulBlakeTSU : 9/24/2013 7:28 pm : link
have struggled to score touchdowns not created by the offense. Since 2010, when Fewell took over as Defensive Coordinator, the Giants have one pick-six, and 2 fumbles returned for touchdowns. In that time, we also only have one special teams touchdown (Wilson KR)

TD Breakdown by year
2013: 0
2012: 3 (1 INT, 1 FMBL, 1 KR)
2011: 1 FMBL
2010: 0
-------
2009: 4 (2 INT, 1 FMBL, 1 PR)
2008: 3 (2 INT, 1 Other)

Three defensive touchdowns in the 3-plus years that Fewell has been the defensive coordinator of the Giants. For a team that struggles to score TDs in the red zone on offense, and a special teams unit that is more about ball security than big plays, it is made a lot worse that the defense can't put points on the board on their own.

For comparison, in that span, the Seahawks had 18 non-offense touchdowns ( 8 INT, 2 FMBL, 4 KR, and 4 Other). Other is defined as a TD from a blocked kick or missed FG."


I realize that Special teams touchdowns is irrelevant to the discussion at hand, but I think it relates to the entire mentality of the team.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/17/2013 12:04 pm : link
Well, Mundy returned an INT to like the 1 yard line in Dallas. I can't put much stock in defensive TD's scored. This year they haven't forced a lot of turnovers but generally, under Fewell they've forced more than most other teams in football.
RE: If the D-Line was so stacked in 07,  
BigBlueinChicago : 10/17/2013 12:05 pm : link
In comment 11283136 Mike L. said:
Quote:
what went wrong in 06? Weren't Strahan, Osi, and Robbins around then? Webster couldn't get on the field until Spags came along.


Do you not remember what happened in the 2006 season?

Strahan was limited to 9 games because of the Lisfranc in his foot during the Giants winning streak when they got to 6-2. He came back for the Saints game, got injured again and put on IR.

Tuck only played 6 games that season and also had a Lisfranc injury that put him on IR after the Cowboys game they won in Dallas.

That was also the same game where LaVar Arrington (who the Giants gave a $50 million contract to that offseason) had his breakout night. But then he ruptured his Achilles that night and was out for the season.

Umenyiora missed 5 games in that season with a torn hip.

If you recall, they had a game at home against Chicago (who was 7-1 at the time) and the ends who started where Adrian Awasom and Kiwanuka.

Robbins, Cofield and Kiwanuka (who only cracked the lineup because of the injuries) were the healthy lineman the whole season.

So you had the strength of the team (defensive line) ravished by injuries. Of the 68 (64 + playoffs) games those 4 players could have played, they combined to play in only 26 of them.

The next season, 3 of those 4 players came back and they won the Super Bowl.

Of the the 60 games (16 games each + 4 playoff games) Strahan, Tuck and Umenyiora could have played in that 2007 season, they combined to play in...you guess it, ALL 60.

Robbins and Cofield played in EVERY game that season as well. It was an unbelievable run of good health the Giants have only seen 2 or 3 times in the last 10 years.

That sure as hell made Spags job easier knowing he had those guys in the lineup every single week.

As for Corey Webster....he was benched for poor play in 2007 and replaced by Aaron Ross. He only rejoined the starting lineup after Sam Madison got hurt in either the Washington game the week before or during the Buffalo game where he had the Pick-6.

Why were they bad in 2006?

Their best players were not on the field.

Why were they better in 2007 and to an extent 2008?

The best players who were injured the year before were back on the field and played every game.
arc-  
Cam in MO : 10/17/2013 12:09 pm : link
I really don't know. If I did, I'd probably be more than just an armchair DC on a message board.

The press coverage truthfully seems to be helping, IMO. Also- the Giants are actually stopping the run between the tackles. If the LB's could step up or if the DE's could hold the edge, the run defense would be fantastic, IMO.

GMANinDC- Agree with that 100%, but I thought this thread was about Fewell? KG's offense is the absolute best the Giants have ever had, but I think it is probably time for a change.


I looked through  
AnishPatel : 10/17/2013 12:10 pm : link
my notes regarding blitz packages. This is from the 2007 SB. This is what I want from a DC. This is from Spags's system but sign or him or don't sign him, get me a DC who can dial up blitzes from anywhere.

This is the blitz composite I created from the SB.






So who  
Bill in UT : 10/17/2013 12:17 pm : link
is responsible for the state of our defensive personnel?
Anish  
PaulBlakeTSU : 10/17/2013 12:18 pm : link
nice post. All those free safety blitzes against one of the scariest passing teams in history with a sharpshooter at QB, one of the best safety valves across the middle ever in Welker, and perhaps the WR that needed double coverage on deep balls more than any WR in history.

I miss that defense.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/17/2013 12:23 pm : link
It was nice having Justin Tuck playing at arguably the highest level he's ever played, a HoF DE in Strahan and an outstanding pass rushing DE in Osi.

We actually had linebackers, too! A legit MIKE in Pierce, a solid OLB in Mitchell..

I freakin wish we still had all of that. Sending pressure when we already had a front 7 that strong was almost a sure-fire way to get to the QB. Now? Not so much.
RE: Anish  
AnishPatel : 10/17/2013 12:23 pm : link
In comment 11283342 PaulBlakeTSU said:
Quote:
nice post. All those free safety blitzes against one of the scariest passing teams in history with a sharpshooter at QB, one of the best safety valves across the middle ever in Welker, and perhaps the WR that needed double coverage on deep balls more than any WR in history.

I miss that defense.


I miss that style of defense I should say. Spags or no spags, I loved the idea of blitzing anyone or everyone. Personnel utilization to disguise coverages was great too. Seeing Ross at safety while dialing up blitzes confused QBs. Also, utilization of our front to the various 43 front alignments was good for gap control against various teams throughout the season.

We seemed to blitzed from all levels. You see we used our front 4, but didn't settle for just them. We sent anyone. All 3 Lbs were fair game as were any secondary player. We mixed and matched from any down and distance from any hash.

That's what I want. So next DC better do that. Just don't rely on the front 4 and call it a day. Create your own pressure and supplement the front 4.
Simply put...fans want Fewell gone  
Jimmy Googs : 10/17/2013 12:26 pm : link
because the defense hasn't been playing well and usually that results in "change".

There is no perfect diagnosis that says its Fewell's fault, but do we really think we will miss his talent as a coordinator if he is fired? Does he bring something to the table that is irreplaceable?

I am fairly sure the defense will not be harmed by a fresh face and different looks brought in by a new DC.
I want Fewell gone  
Jim in Forest Hills : 10/17/2013 12:36 pm : link
because I want a switch to the 34 defense. Not sure how you can blame him for this year though. The talent is terrible. EVen with that they have gotten some big stops late in games.
Speaking of defensive coordinators  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/17/2013 12:54 pm : link
it sure seems like Rob Ryan knows what he's doing. He's much maligned on this board but now that he works for a franchise that's not godawful, he seems to be able to do some things.
amazing the lengths people will go to  
oipolloi : 10/17/2013 1:35 pm : link
to avoid criticizing the coaching staff

There is plenty of blame to go around the entire organization, but to exempt Coughlin or the coaching staff is the height of folly. Anyone who thinks the talent level on this team is worthy of 0-6 is completely out to lunch. The staff has done a lousy job, sticking with players way too long and sticking with an offensive scheme that the league has figured out.

Fewell's defense has been at the very bottom of the league two years in a row!! How is that "not his fault"? People really think this defense has less talent than any other in the NFL? That's nuts.
Bob Sutton  
Simms11 : 10/17/2013 1:40 pm : link
has also proved to be a decent DC in Kansas City. He too creates pressure, but he also has the pieces there to be successful.

Whatever DC is brought in, after Fewell, will only be successful if we can shore up the DE, OLB and CB positions.
Matt.. IMO Fewell sucks  
EricJ (formerly Tyleraimee) : 10/17/2013 1:44 pm : link
and it has nothing to do with the talent he was given. A good coach works a game plan based upon the opponent and the skillset of his players.

His own players are coming out and questioning the game plan. The D line wants to see more blitzing.

From my own experience in playing in the defensive backfield, I see things that absolutely make zero sense at all. Some of this could be put on the defensive backfield coach but the coordinator should see this on film and make adjustments. Examples...

1. Corners playing up in the face of the WRs as if they are going to jam but then make ZERO contact. This gives the WR the advantage. We have been burned numerous times this way.

2. Corners giving 8 yard cushions when the offense only needs 3 yards to move the chains.

3. Corners playing man coverage with inside position vs a running QB or a team with a strong running game. A;though this helps take the middle of the field away, it also means they can no longer see the backfield and quickly identify run or see that the QB has escaped and is running with the ball.

4. Blitzes from the defensive backfield are delayed. So, we get zero pressure and we compromised our coverage. When was the last time a DB got a sack under Fewell? exactly....

5. LB's on occasion lined up vs a WR.

I have much more but need to get back to work
.  
arcarsenal : 10/17/2013 1:46 pm : link
No one said they have the least amount of talent.

But for christs sake, can we stop using ONE metric (yards allowed) as the only freaking way we evaluate a defense? It doesn't work that way. The idea is to keep teams off the scoreboard. The idea is to prevent them from scoring points. The Giants were 12th in points allowed last year. Just like the Super Bowl Champion Baltimore Ravens were. They allowed the exact same number of points. At the end of the day, that matters more than how many yards they've allowed.

If you want to say they give up too many yards, fine. But saying "the defense has been at the bottom of the league 2 years in a row!!" is stupid. They've been at the bottom of the league in that one category. People who use that number as the be-all-end-all always conveniently omit everything else.

The Giants haven't been an elite defense but they also haven't been the worst in football.

The Giants offensively have also now turned the football over more than any other team in the league in 2 of the 4 seasons Fewell has been here. And in 2011, only 6 teams gave the football away more than the Giants. You're insane if you don't think that puts the defense at a major disadvantage.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/17/2013 1:47 pm : link
"His own players are coming out and questioning the game plan"

When did that happen this year?
One of the biggest problems with defensive analysis  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/17/2013 1:53 pm : link
that we have here is an inability or unwillingness to recognize how defenses across the league have trouble keeping up with offenses now. We seem to still be judging the Giants defense against the 86 and 90 teams rather than against their current peers.

It's not a great defense. Any given year there's only one or two great defensive teams in the league.

Every team gives up a ton of yards. It's what the NFL wants with their defensive rules adjustments. Every team struggles against the TE, but we seem to cry about that like we're the only team that has this problem. Denver is unquestionably an elite, super bowl contender. They coughed up 500 yards and 48 points to the cowboys, who are honestly a middling team this year with moments of brilliance.
I want to see Fewell replaced as well but keep in mind  
Jimmy Googs : 10/17/2013 1:53 pm : link
if anyone threw on a uniform next Monday night and happened to take down Josh Freeman one time, you would:

1) have increased the current NYG sack total by 20% (5 to 6)
2) be tied for second on the team and only 0.5 sacks behind the leader Kiwinuka.

The boys aren't playing well no matter what the DC's gameplan is.

I  
Pascal4554 : 10/17/2013 2:04 pm : link
think Fewell is an average DC. The defense has played okay this year all considered. I don't think we will ever have a great defense under Fewell even with better personnel. We will be okay at best.

You can't just sit back and always expect our front four to get to the quarterback. I think teams figured out how to play against our front 4 last year with max protections schemes even when the defensive ends were playing at a higher level. As others have pointed out much better then I could - Fewell is not able to get people free when he blitzes even some of the time. Even with average personnel should our blitzes get home AT SOME POINT?

Under normal circumstances I would be on the side of people defending him, but sitting 0-6 right now I don't have the motivation. I'm ready for a change if we find a good replacement. Who that is? I don't have the expertise to judge candidates.

I don't want to replace him just to replace him. And I don't see any point in replacing him for a guy who is going to run a similar system.
there is no DC out there that can make  
Hades07 : 10/17/2013 2:11 pm : link
this a top D with the talent currently on the roster. The talent issue is the biggest issue with the D. That said, Fe well should be replaced because he isn't very good. Will the next guy be better? I can't say, but even if you give Fewell better players I don't think he would provide a top tier defense.
I think reversing the question might yield better discusssion.  
dangerousrappingfrog : 10/17/2013 2:16 pm : link
What has Fewell done that makes him deserving to stay?

Many like to point being in the middle of the pack for points allowed as something to hang our hat on. It isn't, not when you have played in a division that basically had shitty offenses the last few years. Ried's O in its death throws with either a concussed/hurt Vick or a journey man QB. Wash may as well as not had an offense for years. They were terrible until they got RGIII. Dallas was up and down, but by far the best of those 3. Factor in some hostile weather in late in the season in the Meadowlands...

Honest question, outside of a 6 game stretch in 2011, how many times has this def impressed you? How many memorable performance can you think of?
.  
arcarsenal : 10/17/2013 2:26 pm : link
Green Bay last season. Sacking Cutler like 20 times in 2010. San Fran last season. Holding Dallas to just 14 points on New Years Day last year en route to winning the division. Holding the Pats to 20 at Foxboro and being the first team to beat them there in a billion years back in 2011....
If there is one change I could see happening  
HomerJones45 : 10/17/2013 2:27 pm : link
it is replacing Fewell with Spagnuolo.

As Coughlin mentioned in his PC, "Some of our pressure packages we’re not getting home with the kind of speed and timing that we need, so it’s a combination of things."

I do think that is one thing we had with Spagnuolo that we do not have with Fewell. It seems like something is off in the design of those packages. You don't need an all-Pro to blitz the qb.
Arc, so a handful of games. Know answer the reverse. How many  
dangerousrappingfrog : 10/17/2013 2:41 pm : link
times has the def been memorably terrible? Too many to count, you can pick more than a handful in any given season he has been here. Far too many, historically too many. That is how bad it has been. Hell, what like 3 or 4 in a row at the end the season last yr?

It's largely famine with a small meal far too infrequently.

In may of the games you mentioned, we got a lot of turnovers. Rarely will our def perform with out the benefit of turnovers. The system relies on them too much and turnover are neither reliable nor consistent.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/17/2013 2:50 pm : link
There have been plenty of bad ones too but I think the majority were somewhere in between.

If we move on from Fewell, we move on.. I just think it's way more important to get the personnel straight and get guys who can stay on the field. And it would also help if the offense wasn't turning the football over twice as much as any other team in the league. The turnover numbers right now are staggering. We're on pace to give the ball away well over 50 times in 16 games. Probably around 60. I don't have time to go back and look but I can't imagine many teams have turned the ball over that many times.. ever.
arc  
GMANinDC : 10/17/2013 2:54 pm : link
The problem your running into is

No one want to put blame on the offense because they don't want to blame Eli. That part of the equation (the numerous turnovers the last 2 years) is being overlooked because that would bring the spotlight on the offense it self (TC, Gilbride, and Eli). It's easier to look at the defense and wishing for the days of 2007..
I want Fewell gone because the defense is both conservative AND  
BeerFridge : 10/17/2013 2:57 pm : link
prone to giving up big plays. It's a terrible combination. It has been so consistently and that tells me that he's not the guy.
I agree that the personnel is also to blame. Plenty of blame to go  
dangerousrappingfrog : 10/17/2013 3:01 pm : link
around. I am ready for a fresh start at this point with both coaching and many of the old highly paid vets on this team. Fewell does not deserve all the blame but I also don't believe in him. Even if we had better personnel, I don't think he gets it done. I could be wrong and I will probably never know the answer to the question.

Our team is so depressing right now. All the turnovers leave a bad taste in our mouths. This is the toughest time as a fan I have faced.

I am praying that we can get a win on Monday against Minn.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/17/2013 3:36 pm : link
I think we will win Monday night. I really do. Hopefully I'm right. We just need something to feel a little good about right now.

I know, people will say "no! that's bad! We need the best draft pick possible" but I can't root against the Giants in Week freaking 7. Just can't.

And GMAN.. yeah, I think that definitely has something to do with it. I love Eli and will find every possible way to defend him but obviously he's made some bad decisions this year. I do feel like Gilbride and the offensive system is a much bigger problem than Fewell and his system, though. We have shitty personnel defensively. It's understandable that we'd have shitty results. There's no reason why a 2 time Super Bowl MVP with guys like Cruz and Nicks at WR should be playing like this, though. I know some weeks the OL didn't even give us a chance but they haven't been as bad these last 2 weeks and we still gave the ball away like it was candy. It has to stop.
Hell no,  
AnishPatel : 10/17/2013 4:56 pm : link
Blame the offense as well. They have been utter shit this year. And blame Eli , the WRs and the system/ Gilbride for it. Its a boom or busy system with no margin for error.

Still the total offense during Gilbride s tenure has been good. Last year she saw slippage and ended up 14th overall. I shutter think what the overall ranking will be this year.

Hey, I am all for changes on. both sides of the ball. Clean it all out and a lot of players needed to be let go too.
Spags is a great guy  
bignygfan : 10/17/2013 5:35 pm : link
First off, the best nickname any Giants coach has ever had. That's not debatable!

Second, he led us to a Super Bowl!

Third, Fewell is an idiot! His game plan calls for us NOT to sack the QB except for the four games we won in the playoffs two years ago.

Fourth, say it with me now ... SPAGS!
Anish -  
mrvax : 10/17/2013 6:16 pm : link
I like blitzing and I believe the players on defense enjoy it also. It's aggressive. We just don't have guys who can actually get near the QB on a blitz. It's freegin' terrible.

A player with the speed of Williams or Rivers should be able to whack that QB! But they can't.
mrvax  
Matt M. : 10/17/2013 6:17 pm : link
Have you ever considered that the talented DL can't get any pressure because of the scheme? The same goes for virtually every blitz? This team may be lacking at certain positions, but it is not devoid of talent. I would say the overall talent level on our D when healthy is at least average. Yet, under Fewell we are among the bottom 5 in defense. Fewell's D sucks. Plain and simple.
Matt..  
arcarsenal : 10/17/2013 6:34 pm : link
That's a ridiculously stupid argument unless you believe that Fewell changed the "scheme".

Why were the Giants 5th in sacks in 2010 and 3rd in sacks in 2011 if Fewell's scheme sucks so bad and prevents us from getting them.

The players are the variable. The scheme is the constant. Figure it out.
Spags is a great guy?  
EricJ (formerly Tyleraimee) : 10/17/2013 6:35 pm : link
I think some people in St Louis would disagree with you. Look into the incident where he fired an equipment manager who was with the team since before color TV was invented. Look into WHY
mrvax  
AnishPatel : 10/17/2013 6:46 pm : link
That doesn't mean we shouldn't blitz. That's up to Fewell to have to be even more creative to find ways to beat the pass protection. You see he rarely blitzes and when we do we are god awful at it because it lacks any creativity. Its painful to watch guys try and get absorbed by the their OL.
the guys never comes up with anything  
giantranger : 10/17/2013 8:17 pm : link
ok so the talent isn't the best. Do we see this defense doing anything spectacular? They do have about the deepest set of DT's the league has to offer. You think he could use that to his advantage and tie up some linemen to free up a safety or DB with enough speed to get to the qb. He has no imagination. They do nothing well at all.
RE: Spags is a great guy?  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/17/2013 8:21 pm : link
In comment 11284156 EricJ (formerly Tyleraimee) said:
Quote:
I think some people in St Louis would disagree with you. Look into the incident where he fired an equipment manager who was with the team since before color TV was invented. Look into WHY


Is that really enough to say he's not a good guy? I mean his record is pretty spotless. That would be like claiming that Eli is a spoiled brat because he refused to play for San Diego.
RE: the guys never comes up with anything  
arcarsenal : 10/17/2013 8:24 pm : link
In comment 11284262 giantranger said:
Quote:
ok so the talent isn't the best. Do we see this defense doing anything spectacular? They do have about the deepest set of DT's the league has to offer. You think he could use that to his advantage and tie up some linemen to free up a safety or DB with enough speed to get to the qb. He has no imagination. They do nothing well at all.


They're 13th in YPC against.. .I'd say they're stopping the run pretty well considering that only 1 team in the league has had more rushing plays run against them.
RE: Anish -  
BigBlueinChicago : 10/17/2013 9:23 pm : link
In comment 11284105 mrvax said:
Quote:
I like blitzing and I believe the players on defense enjoy it also. It's aggressive. We just don't have guys who can actually get near the QB on a blitz. It's freegin' terrible.

A player with the speed of Williams or Rivers should be able to whack that QB! But they can't.


Add Paysinger to that list.

Oh the pain...



Where is he running to?
Wow, the Bears one is awful.  
arcarsenal : 10/17/2013 9:29 pm : link
I never saw a replay of that. Where the fuck was he trying to go? The gap was right in front of him and just ran right out of the play for no reason.
Anish.  
dangerousrappingfrog : 10/17/2013 10:08 pm : link
Fuck it, I will. Spags. He was creative with the blitz.

Bring it on, it can't be worse.

Those clips are sadly hilarious even in my angst.
Looking at it again.. the only rational conclusion I can jump to..  
arcarsenal : 10/17/2013 10:12 pm : link
Is that either Kiwanuka was supposed to stunt inside there or Paysinger thought he was going to.

Someone fucked up. I'm just not sure which guy. Based on what we've seen so far, it was probably Paysinger. Paysinger was probably supposed to hit that gap.
Maybe Spags isn't a great guy  
bignygfan : 10/17/2013 10:22 pm : link
But he is a genius!

Think about the confidence Eli could get back going up against him in practice!
BBC  
GMANinDC : 10/18/2013 8:23 am : link
Thanks for that video..That has been my contention with the blitzes. Fewell calls up the scheme but the players are not instinctive enough to know how to get to the QB or the RB..This was the same issue in the Denver game when someone posted the video of the two TD runs by Moreno. The LB'ers have no clue how to stop it and the DE's (Kiwi) got lost in the was, both times..

In ancient times there was Alexander The Great  
ghost718 : 10/18/2013 9:47 am : link
Now in 2013,we have Perry The Confused

If you see Spencer Paysinger running towards the locker room,don't panic,it's just a Giants blitz.
If Fewell gets cut  
mrvax : 10/18/2013 10:29 am : link
in the (hopefully) housecleaning that comes at seasons end, we could do worse than bringing back Spags.

I'm not sure who is available. I don't really want a geriatric patient here either.

RE: BBC  
BigBlueinChicago : 10/18/2013 11:34 am : link
In comment 11284610 GMANinDC said:
Quote:
Thanks for that video..That has been my contention with the blitzes. Fewell calls up the scheme but the players are not instinctive enough to know how to get to the QB or the RB..This was the same issue in the Denver game when someone posted the video of the two TD runs by Moreno. The LB'ers have no clue how to stop it and the DE's (Kiwi) got lost in the was, both times..


And that's the thing.

So folks want to blame Fewell for his blitzes, schemes and not putting his players in position. But surely he didn't expect the player (in this case, Paysinger) to:

1. Run into the back of the lineman. (Carolina game)

2. Running to nothing. (Chicago game)

3. Have the players miscommunicate the play. (Chicago game)

Here were the Denver TD's you referenced.



The season tape of Kiwanuka is not looking good.
The Chicago play is a joke  
ghost718 : 10/18/2013 11:46 am : link
That's just not a well designed play.Even if executed perfectly,look at when Cutler gets rid of the ball.
Last time the defensive ends performed this poorly  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/18/2013 11:53 am : link
they fired Mike Waufle.
That chicago play looks like a line stunt  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/18/2013 11:56 am : link
just poorly executed.
Paysinger cold have easily disrupted that play...  
arcarsenal : 10/18/2013 11:58 am : link
...if he took on Forte and hit that gap. It also may have worked if Kiwi actually stunted when/if he was supposed to.

One of those players fucked up and it wound up taking them both entirely out of the play.
He's not supposed to take on Forte  
ghost718 : 10/18/2013 12:07 pm : link
I thought that much was obvious
If people would actually look at the plays  
GMANinDC : 10/18/2013 12:09 pm : link
one by one instead of in a vacuum, you would see that players are out of position a lot of the times..or do not have instincts to know which gap to hit..

Now if that's the "communications problems", people are referring too, then that's some BS..
Yes.  
arcarsenal : 10/18/2013 12:12 pm : link
Because clearly I meant that he was supposed to get intentionally blocked by Forte.
GMAN,  
Randy in CT : 10/18/2013 12:50 pm : link
if you are continually seeing Giants players out of place, is there a chance that their coaching is bad?
I think we have  
AnishPatel : 10/18/2013 12:54 pm : link
good pro and con list of people on Fewell. However, at the end of the day, using a phrase from Rolle, Fewell won't be extended. This way he doesn't get fired either. We just simply chose not to extend him.

I believe that's how this will all play out.
Chicago  
AnishPatel : 10/18/2013 12:58 pm : link
play wasn't a stunt. We ran this play against the Panthers. The LB takes out the LT, allowing the DE to rush in. We had a LB ear hole the RT I think it was for the Panthers. It was actually great to see.
Randy  
GMANinDC : 10/18/2013 1:20 pm : link
They are out of position because the aer blitzing the wrong way..watch the video clips..You can clearly see that the Paysinger and Kiwi not knowing where the ball is or how to get to the ball carrier..Coaching can't fix that. They just aren't that good..
Anish  
GMANinDC : 10/18/2013 1:43 pm : link
I'm not pro Fewell..What i am putting out there is that we have bad personnel on the field..That's the problem..Kiwi is not a LB or a good DE at this point (I never thought he was that good from the start)..They have Paysinger and J Williams starting when they should be backups or 3rd stringers. Tuck has been invisible the last 2 years and JPP is not producing..

What results can anyone be looking for with that type of production?
I wonder if Paysinger could be viable as an OLB  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/18/2013 1:47 pm : link
He's certainly not a middle, but perhaps Beason stabilizes things.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/18/2013 1:47 pm : link
Anish.. where's the DT supposed to get in on that play, though? It seems like you'd want him to stunt inside where there's a gap and a quicker path to the QB rather than go all the way around and take himself out of the play like he did.

I'd be curious to see how it worked against Carolina when it was run properly. Whatever happened on the play in Chicago just looked completely wrong.
RE: Anish  
AnishPatel : 10/18/2013 1:56 pm : link
In comment 11285289 GMANinDC said:
Quote:
I'm not pro Fewell..What i am putting out there is that we have bad personnel on the field..That's the problem..Kiwi is not a LB or a good DE at this point (I never thought he was that good from the start)..They have Paysinger and J Williams starting when they should be backups or 3rd stringers. Tuck has been invisible the last 2 years and JPP is not producing..

What results can anyone be looking for with that type of production?



GMAN I am just saying in general. Some maybe fans some aren't. I am not a fan of his. I am just saying if things go like this he won't be extended. His contract will expire and bye bye fewell. Next season of American Coordinator, we will have our 5th DC in the TC era!

RE: .  
AnishPatel : 10/18/2013 1:59 pm : link
In comment 11285300 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Anish.. where's the DT supposed to get in on that play, though? It seems like you'd want him to stunt inside where there's a gap and a quicker path to the QB rather than go all the way around and take himself out of the play like he did.

I'd be curious to see how it worked against Carolina when it was run properly. Whatever happened on the play in Chicago just looked completely wrong.


From the panthers game the DE stops, and the Tackle gets earholed and then the DE or DT rushes in. It worked well I must say.

That was creative, I never seen that in football where the LB takes out the tackle so that the DE can rush in. It worked well and the DE got a hit on the QB. I liked that a lot. It was fun seeing the OT get owned like that.

The Bears game play the LT drifts because the RE takes a wide approach, which mans now the LB has more ground to cover. So by the time the play works, the QB would have gotten rid of the ball more times than not.

I think that was creative by Fewell.
.  
arcarsenal : 10/18/2013 2:03 pm : link
A-ha. Thanks. I wasn't sure what the hell either players responsibility was in that .gif up there because it just looked like it totally went south from the get.
It was really cool to  
AnishPatel : 10/18/2013 2:16 pm : link
see. I never seen that ever. It's almost as if you're playing another position. In this case it was the OT. So the OT is watching the DE and kick stepping back. He doesn't think or ever believe a LB is blitzing him. The DE makes a move and waits until the LB just takes the OT out, allowing the DE to rush and hit the QB.

That's what is supposed to happen. It worked against the Panthers where we hit the QB. We didn't get the sack, but it was fun to see the OT get knocked to the side.

At this point try anything. If the DEs can't win 1 on 1 then use the Lbs to take out the OTs! LOL. That's one props to Fewell for trying. It's actually fun to see.
Anish  
GMANinDC : 10/18/2013 2:33 pm : link
I hope along with a new DC comes 2 new DE's, 3 new LB's and another CB..And a new OC..
2 new DEs.  
AnishPatel : 10/18/2013 5:08 pm : link
How many DEs will we need? What do we do with Kiwi and Tuck? I am all for cutting ties with Tuck. He was useless last year and is useless this year. A new CB is important and a safety we can use. I like Beason and Spencer P. JW can't stay healthy. We have a lot of holes on both sides.

A new DC and OC can help a lot.
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