San antonio is just clearly the better team. Everyone is going to make this about lebron because thats what people do (I will not bang my head against the wall combatting idiocy) I dont know that any individual who ever lived could swing the balance of this series in his place, hes largely been terrific. Miami is just overmatched, and theyre going to have a bunch of decisions to make this offseason. My suspicion is they dont have the balls to do whats right with wade.
San antonio is just clearly the better team. Everyone is going to make this about lebron because thats what people do (I will not bang my head against the wall combatting idiocy) I dont know that any individual who ever lived could swing the balance of this series in his place, hes largely been terrific. Miami is just overmatched, and theyre going to have a bunch of decisions to make this offseason. My suspicion is they dont have the balls to do whats right with wade.
Wade and Bosh.
In all honesty, hes better going off to Cleveland with Kyrie. Cleveland should trade the number 1 pick and look for a Love/Noah type player. Imagien Noah with those 2/
San antonio is just clearly the better team. Everyone is going to make this about lebron because thats what people do (I will not bang my head against the wall combatting idiocy) I dont know that any individual who ever lived could swing the balance of this series in his place, hes largely been terrific. Miami is just overmatched, and theyre going to have a bunch of decisions to make this offseason. My suspicion is they dont have the balls to do whats right with wade.
Miami do whats right with Wade when Wade is the one that has the two player options for 20+ million each year. They would need Wade to cooperate to kick him to the curb
Forget the obvious fact that the big 3 core is unsustainable, but the rest of this team is a mess going forward. Everyone talks about the spurs age but miami is the oldest team in the league, not the spurs. The roster is ancient and will need to be completely revamped very soon, and its most aparrent on the defensive end. Lebron, chalmers and cole are the only guys in the rotation on the right side of 30, and the latter two are completely replaceable.
I think hes going to stay in miami though, and unless riley has something up his sleeve, I think he will regret it
Wade is going to opt out this offseason whether we think it makes sense or not. I dont expect miami to be as coldblooded as they should be for a 32 year old with a bad knee who can probably never play more than 80 games in a season again (including playoffs), but lets see what type of deal they agree to. I dont think riley is going to pay him 85 plus percent of the max.
I actually could see Lebron opting in now and taking a wait and see
approach with Miami. I think he does want to stay there, but like MoM said, if he does there is a good chance he will regret it. It's probably in his best interests to put off free agency for 1 more year so that he will have a more clear picture of what the future in South Beach is going to look like.
Wade is going to opt out this offseason whether we think it makes sense or not. I dont expect miami to be as coldblooded as they should be for a 32 year old with a bad knee who can probably never play more than 80 games in a season again (including playoffs), but lets see what type of deal they agree to. I dont think riley is going to pay him 85 plus percent of the max.
If Wade opts out they aren't going to then kick him to the curb, and they shouldn't. He'd be doing them a big favor by opting out so you can't just then tell him to f off, if he opts out he will already know what kind of deal he's getting from them
but man these teams are on 2 different levels and the Heat look like shit. Non-Lebrons totally useless and even Lebron at times has been sluggish and apprehensive. But this series is more about the Spurs being awesome than Miami sucking.
I hope there's a rebalancing in the league this off-season. Would be great to see a more competitive East. Hopefully Rose can actually stay healthy.
For financial security, not out of the goodness of his heart. Right now someone will hand him a contract with a lump sum worth well more than whatever he is owed opting in even if spread out over more years. There is no guarantee he will command anything in a couple years with a chronic knee problem that already requires him to sit once every 3 games just to arrive in the playoffs in one piece. In 2 years I think he is a candidate to be completely irrelevant
isn't getting anywhere near max money if he opts out. He'd probably get like 12 million a year on the open market, which means he'd basically have to get 4 years 45 million on the open market just to make the same amount that he would make in Miami by simply staying these next two years where they owe him 42 million. The 3 million difference made up by no state sales tax among other things.
There is no upside to opting out besides taking less money to stay with Heat. He's not opting out to get more money elsewhere, because he won't get it. Chances are even 2 years from now he'll still be able to get 5-6 million from someone if not more. The ONLY way he would come out ahead by opting out and going somewhere else versus staying in Miami and playing out the final 2 years is if he has to retire after the next 2 years, and even then he would still probably break even.
once was, he's not a guy that puts people in the seats. You aren't going to sell your fan base on the direction of your team and get them to show up because you signed a 32 year old Dwayne Wade.
When wade was awful and lebron was passive and just a guy. Kahwi Leonard the best player on the court in the 2 most important games of the finals. Amazing
You are really underestimating how much wade could get annually especially with a rising cap. And miami would probably be willing to give him a 5th year, something like 5 for 75 or even 5 for 70 would be a paycut annually but still net him 30 plus mil more that he is likely to never see if he risks opting in and eventually hitting free agency at a time where his value is lessened.
On another note I dont know who the hell to name mvp of this finals for sa because you can go many directions, and none of them are having close to the series lebron is. I dont think we could see the mvp go to a player on a losing team in the 21st century, but there is precedent for it both in the nba finals and the superbowl. People may want to poo poo lebron and his 70 plus percent true shooting percentage because of the margins of some of these games early, but game 4 was his only down first half in the series. There is no spur playing nearly as well as him. This series is like the nba equivalent of a scene from nat geo wild where a cape buffalo is fighting off a pride of 12 lions clawing all over his back
The 2 biggest games of the series and Leonard was the best forward on the court.
Lebron stunk in the first half last night being passive when it mattered and compiled when it was a blowout. Game 3 was stat compiling as well with a solid minus 20 worst on the team.
He was awesome in game 2, MVP best in the work caliber play. Otherwise he has not stood out as even sniffing an m v p on a losing team.
The san antonio spurs are making 19 threes a game and shooting 47 percent from downtown. Thats why theyre leading this series, because of a team wide historic offensive display. Not because leonard has come close to outplaying lebron, who is shooting about 70 percent against him. Miami cant get stops against a 10 prong attack. Switch lebron and leonard and the spurs have this wrapped up with 4 blowouts
You cant dismiss lebrons 3rd quarter last night as compiling during garbage time, because if any other heat player could make a shot or if they could somehow ever string stops together, there was still plenty of time to make it a game. He was the only guy playing. When his team is outclassed to the tune of 20 point early deficits, thats not on him. He didnt have a great first half last night. He did have a great first half in game 3 and that did not stop a similar beatdown.
there is not 1 spur having close to the series lebron is individually. This is about the most efficient shooting from a volume scorer ever in a finals. There is not 1 player who ever lived who would change the outcome of the series in his place
anyway, hes not going to win mvp. But whoever does will have had the clearly inferior series. This is about the most balanced attack weve seen in the finals. A spur will get it by default, but its very tough to pick one
in three different decades. That's incredible. People get on the Spurs for not winning back to back, but the longevity of their relevance has been so impressive.
Would you not agree that either choice would rank among the few least impressive finals mvp series weve ever seen? Leonard has scored in the single digits in half the games in the series, and allowing lebron to shoot nearly 70 percent against him.
The spurs are uniquely built and a true team in the truest sense of the word. They are dominating a finals series without a single individual playing on an all nba caliber level.
only have one guy on their team who can create and they have too many older players who are not good enough or fit enough defensively to keep up with the barrage of competent weapons on the Spurs team. It's not that all the players on the Spurs are stars, just that they all bought into the system, are exceuting the system, and are doing the things that they do well.
An individual basketball player has more influence than in any other sport, but it still takes a team effort to win. And right now, Lebron's supporting cast just isn't good enough to beat a team playing at a level of team basketball that I have never seen before in my life.
I'm not saying this Spurs team is the best team I've ever seen-- because I think other teams with multiple stars in their primes were better. But this Spurs team plays better TEAM basketball than I can remember. If you're a coach at any level, this Finals is what you show your players to teach them about a team's potential when the players work together. It's beautiful. I keep looking to spot Steve Nash in black and silver.
I despise the Heat, but watching the non-Lebrons get destroyed only elevates my opinion of Lebron's value.
LeBron has easily been the best individual in the series. And there isn't one Spurs player that stands out, it's just a collective effort. Leonard is probably the guy who stands out the most but he had 2 really poor games to start it off.
I disagree. I think the Spurs individual players are playing at an extremely high level. However, because there is so much ball movement, their individual usage is lower and so no single player has to carry the load; or, the load isn't disproportionately carried by the few stars on the team such that would cause them to have eye-popping numbers.
Some player on the Spurs certainly could put up far bigger numbers, but it would likely be to the team's detriment and caused by taking less optimal chances than what they are doing by keeping the ball in constant motion until a player is open.
Lebron has to be gassed from carrying the team all season while Wade rested his knees, and now having to shoulder such a load in the finals because no one else on the team can create or play tough defense.
Leonard has been fantastic, and the Heat are just not capable of handling another Spur who can continually score. But how much of Leonard's offensive success can be attributed to the opportunity of the Heat focusing on Duncan/Parker/Ginobli as well as the excellent passing by Diaw to make it even easier for Leonard?
If you saw those numbers for a PF you'd think he was an awful player. But he makes such an impact in other ways that he's a net positive for that team.
LeBron needs to shoot a lot more to give his team a chance. Unlike younger Kobe who used to play to PPG too much, I think LeBron plays to a PER and TS% too much. It's evidenced by his refusal to take half court shots at the end of quarters. If his team starts out struggling again, he needs to gun for 50 even if his efficiency takes a hit. It's not like his team is scoring that efficiently anyway. And with him in score mode, his teammates will get better looks and their efficiency might go out.
The heat went a plus 2 without lebron in game 3 (minus 3 first half, plus 5 2nd half) thats the only game in the series they went a plus without him, and certainly not by any substantial margin.
paul, theres not a top 12 player on that team. Maybe not top 15. They didnt even have a player average 30 minutes a game this season, the first team in nba history to ever have that happen. Not just the first team to do that and win a title, the first team to do that period. They are incredibly deep, and obviously very talented, but their top end talent is definitely weaker than most title teams. That doesnt make them any less impressive a champion, or any less great of a team. But the composition of the team is an outlier among champs
I think the 1st in BBI history. Although obviously this was a season long thread so it's not fair to compare this to a Giants game thread. Still, pretty crazy.
The heats issues in this series are pretty much exclusively on defense. Theyve been scoring plenty efficiently, an efg% of 56 percent which is right in line with their regular season which broke a record. It is indeed somewhat inflated by lebrons off the charts 69%, but theyre down in this series because they cant get stops. The spurs are putting up numbers ive never seen. An o rating of 122. An efg% of 61. Shooting 47 percent from downtown on record breaking volume to boot.
miami has never had rim protection defensively and at this point are no longer athletic enough on the perimeter to compensate. This is an old team. The spurs are forcing them to rotate a ton with their ball movement and the defensive rotations are always two steps late leading to open looks. They dont cover the ground they used to and its bleeding great looks all over the place
The spurs are just playing great. Miami cannot catch a break for a defensive lapse because the spurs make them pay every time. Theyve hit plenty of tough contested looks too. They are the better team, but theyre also absolutely playing to their ceiling too. You really cant execute any better. This has been a clinic
Who actually still gives miami a shot? I absolutely dont see it, would love nothing more than to be wrong. If they can somehow win game 5 which I just dont see at all, things suddenly get interesting and pressure builds on the spurs. Miami has been awesome when facing elimination in the past, but theyve never been in this deep a hole vs this good a team
Who actually still gives miami a shot? I absolutely dont see it, would love nothing more than to be wrong. If they can somehow win game 5 which I just dont see at all, things suddenly get interesting and pressure builds on the spurs. Miami has been awesome when facing elimination in the past, but theyve never been in this deep a hole vs this good a team
Quote:
Spurs in 5
AnotherGiantsFan : 6/5/2014 9:18 pm : link : reply
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they have the higher A game and they have the best player in the series. The Spurs tend to be a team that looks beautiful when they're on but limited when they're off. 3-1 is a huge hole and I'm not giving Miami a large % chance, but I think they have a 20% chance of coming back from this.
But I did vaguely hear something about lebrons ankle needing treatment after the game. As if the odds werent already real low. Dont know if its a huge deal though
I give miami about a 5 percent chance. If they somehow ever got game 5 id probably bump that to about 30 percent
20% is too high. After two straight drubbings, a Heat win would indicate that they figured out a way to counter what the Spurs are doing since putting Diaw in the starting lineup (whether cause or coincidence, I don't know). As such, that would improve Miami's odds dramatically going forward. But as of now, it appears that the Heat have no answers for stopping this Spurs offense. They have too many guys who can hit wide open shots on the perimeter and so it's not leading to many fast break opportunities or transition basketball where Miami usually thrives.
has been the best player in the series, but I wouldnt even consider giving him a MVP for the series, espercially if the Spurs win in 5. Those two games were just flat out blowouts, at home nonetheless.
I would give it to Leonard right now, with Diaw a close 2nd. Duncan would be probably be around 4th. He has rebounded well (what big doesnt against the Spurs?) but offensively, he has been meh for 3 games now.
You are right that the defense is the bigger problem but their team offensive efficiency is down from 110.9 in the regular season to 106.6 in this series. In any case LeBron can't make up for his team aging and getting outplayed on defense by himself as much as he can on offense. They're going to have to win some shoot outs and I think LeBron is going to have to take more shots for that to happen.
In fairness I didn't realize SA was as good as they were
Defensively during the regular season. They were the 3rd best defense, so it's to be expected that Miami's offense would drop off.
One thing about the heat I don't get is why they can't use Bosh more effectively. He was an elite offensive player in Toronto, and I don't think he was an empty stats kind of guy. Scoring wise he was basically a prime KG level player. With Wade fading, he should be the clear cut #2 guy and putting up 20 PPG. Is it just him playing out of position at center? Does his game not pair well with LeBron's (certainly should fit better than Wade, no?).
San antonio is being led in scoring by tony parker. Led in rebounding by tim duncan. Led in assists by boris diaw. Led in fg% (min 7 attempts per game) by kawhi leonard. Led in steals and threes made by danny green. Led in plus minus ratio by manu ginobili
lebron leads the heat in every categorie listed
chris, you also have to account for the fact that san antonio has better than league average defense, so playing to their regular season o rating against them would require an above ordinary effort. Obviously it is possible for them to play better offensively though, im just saying theyre getting beat defensively
I would have a problem giving him mvp too, letme be clear. Im just saying this is one of the most deserving cases for a guy on a losing team that we have ever seen. This is the 26th finals I recall consciously watching, and I can never recall a player being so definitively the best player on the floor and still winding up on the losing end. Without doing a ton of research and just going off memory, 04 shaq is the only real comparison. And his team lost in 5. Chauncey billups walked off with an mvp but shaq was hands down the best player in that series
I would have a problem giving him mvp too, letme be clear. Im just saying this is one of the most deserving cases for a guy on a losing team that we have ever seen. This is the 26th finals I recall consciously watching, and I can never recall a player being so definitively the best player on the floor and still winding up on the losing end. Without doing a ton of research and just going off memory, 04 shaq is the only real comparison. And his team lost in 5. Chauncey billups walked off with an mvp but shaq was hands down the best player in that series
Shaq in the 94 playoffs was pretty awesome too, but they got swept. Hakeem was clearly the MVP, but he didnt come close to stopping Shaq either.
San antonio is being led in scoring by tony parker. Led in rebounding by tim duncan. Led in assists by boris diaw. Led in fg% (min 7 attempts per game) by kawhi leonard. Led in steals and threes made by danny green. Led in plus minus ratio by manu ginobili
lebron leads the heat in every categorie listed
That is a fantastic summation. Thanks for sharing.
Miami on the brink of elimination. LeBron is one of the greatest elimination game players in history, I wonder if he can pull out another legendary performance at the right time.
But it'll take more than LeBron and the Big 3. The Heat role players have been slaughtered by the Spurs role players in this series, those other Heat players need to step up.
Wade and Bosh.
In all honesty, hes better going off to Cleveland with Kyrie. Cleveland should trade the number 1 pick and look for a Love/Noah type player. Imagien Noah with those 2/
Noah
Thompson
Lebron
Waiters
Irving
Yowza.
Don't put anything past Riley.
I think hes going to stay in miami though, and unless riley has something up his sleeve, I think he will regret it
If Wade opts out they aren't going to then kick him to the curb, and they shouldn't. He'd be doing them a big favor by opting out so you can't just then tell him to f off, if he opts out he will already know what kind of deal he's getting from them
I hope there's a rebalancing in the league this off-season. Would be great to see a more competitive East. Hopefully Rose can actually stay healthy.
There is no upside to opting out besides taking less money to stay with Heat. He's not opting out to get more money elsewhere, because he won't get it. Chances are even 2 years from now he'll still be able to get 5-6 million from someone if not more. The ONLY way he would come out ahead by opting out and going somewhere else versus staying in Miami and playing out the final 2 years is if he has to retire after the next 2 years, and even then he would still probably break even.
On another note I dont know who the hell to name mvp of this finals for sa because you can go many directions, and none of them are having close to the series lebron is. I dont think we could see the mvp go to a player on a losing team in the 21st century, but there is precedent for it both in the nba finals and the superbowl. People may want to poo poo lebron and his 70 plus percent true shooting percentage because of the margins of some of these games early, but game 4 was his only down first half in the series. There is no spur playing nearly as well as him. This series is like the nba equivalent of a scene from nat geo wild where a cape buffalo is fighting off a pride of 12 lions clawing all over his back
Lebron stunk in the first half last night being passive when it mattered and compiled when it was a blowout. Game 3 was stat compiling as well with a solid minus 20 worst on the team.
He was awesome in game 2, MVP best in the work caliber play. Otherwise he has not stood out as even sniffing an m v p on a losing team.
You cant dismiss lebrons 3rd quarter last night as compiling during garbage time, because if any other heat player could make a shot or if they could somehow ever string stops together, there was still plenty of time to make it a game. He was the only guy playing. When his team is outclassed to the tune of 20 point early deficits, thats not on him. He didnt have a great first half last night. He did have a great first half in game 3 and that did not stop a similar beatdown.
there is not 1 spur having close to the series lebron is individually. This is about the most efficient shooting from a volume scorer ever in a finals. There is not 1 player who ever lived who would change the outcome of the series in his place
anyway, hes not going to win mvp. But whoever does will have had the clearly inferior series. This is about the most balanced attack weve seen in the finals. A spur will get it by default, but its very tough to pick one
The spurs are uniquely built and a true team in the truest sense of the word. They are dominating a finals series without a single individual playing on an all nba caliber level.
An individual basketball player has more influence than in any other sport, but it still takes a team effort to win. And right now, Lebron's supporting cast just isn't good enough to beat a team playing at a level of team basketball that I have never seen before in my life.
I'm not saying this Spurs team is the best team I've ever seen-- because I think other teams with multiple stars in their primes were better. But this Spurs team plays better TEAM basketball than I can remember. If you're a coach at any level, this Finals is what you show your players to teach them about a team's potential when the players work together. It's beautiful. I keep looking to spot Steve Nash in black and silver.
I despise the Heat, but watching the non-Lebrons get destroyed only elevates my opinion of Lebron's value.
It's definitely a unique Finals MVP vote.
Some player on the Spurs certainly could put up far bigger numbers, but it would likely be to the team's detriment and caused by taking less optimal chances than what they are doing by keeping the ball in constant motion until a player is open.
Leonard has been fantastic, and the Heat are just not capable of handling another Spur who can continually score. But how much of Leonard's offensive success can be attributed to the opportunity of the Heat focusing on Duncan/Parker/Ginobli as well as the excellent passing by Diaw to make it even easier for Leonard?
34.5 MPG
6.5 PPG
.385 FG%
1 block
If you saw those numbers for a PF you'd think he was an awful player. But he makes such an impact in other ways that he's a net positive for that team.
paul, theres not a top 12 player on that team. Maybe not top 15. They didnt even have a player average 30 minutes a game this season, the first team in nba history to ever have that happen. Not just the first team to do that and win a title, the first team to do that period. They are incredibly deep, and obviously very talented, but their top end talent is definitely weaker than most title teams. That doesnt make them any less impressive a champion, or any less great of a team. But the composition of the team is an outlier among champs
miami has never had rim protection defensively and at this point are no longer athletic enough on the perimeter to compensate. This is an old team. The spurs are forcing them to rotate a ton with their ball movement and the defensive rotations are always two steps late leading to open looks. They dont cover the ground they used to and its bleeding great looks all over the place
AnotherGiantsFan : 6/5/2014 9:18 pm : link : reply
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I give miami about a 5 percent chance. If they somehow ever got game 5 id probably bump that to about 30 percent
I would give it to Leonard right now, with Diaw a close 2nd. Duncan would be probably be around 4th. He has rebounded well (what big doesnt against the Spurs?) but offensively, he has been meh for 3 games now.
One thing about the heat I don't get is why they can't use Bosh more effectively. He was an elite offensive player in Toronto, and I don't think he was an empty stats kind of guy. Scoring wise he was basically a prime KG level player. With Wade fading, he should be the clear cut #2 guy and putting up 20 PPG. Is it just him playing out of position at center? Does his game not pair well with LeBron's (certainly should fit better than Wade, no?).
lebron leads the heat in every categorie listed
chris, you also have to account for the fact that san antonio has better than league average defense, so playing to their regular season o rating against them would require an above ordinary effort. Obviously it is possible for them to play better offensively though, im just saying theyre getting beat defensively
Shaq in the 94 playoffs was pretty awesome too, but they got swept. Hakeem was clearly the MVP, but he didnt come close to stopping Shaq either.
lebron leads the heat in every categorie listed
That is a fantastic summation. Thanks for sharing.
But it'll take more than LeBron and the Big 3. The Heat role players have been slaughtered by the Spurs role players in this series, those other Heat players need to step up.