From up 7 in the 4th to that. Kinda felt they needed this one if they were gonna takethis series. People are going to have a field day with lebrons cramps, but when your muscles lock up like that its as bad as any injury in the short term. I actually had this very thought about it at halftime given the constant emphasis on the temps and his penchent for this happening before, but ive never seen him this paralyzed by it. Heat let a great chance go tonight. That was just a terrible last 8 minutes in every facet imaginable.
but it was exciting hawkey. I'm just ready for this game tonight. Miami needs it more obviously. Playoff games where "Miami needs it more" are always must-watch.
this 12 year old is called the kid with the golden voice? Why?
Lebron on court= miami plus 121
lebron off court= miami minus 29
wade on court= miami plus 29
wade off court= miami plus 63
bosh on court= plus 27
bosh off court= miami plus 65
on/off numbers in small samples can be very misleading, but this is nuts. They are a minus 38 with lebron off the floor vs indy and san antonio. Theyre getting skullfucked whenever spo tries to buy him rest.
you'd think this data would be far more persuasive and prominent to general fans who still don't realize how Lebron carries a team. Too much focus is paid to what he doesn't do rather than what he makes possible.
no one has had to ever shoulder a wider variety of responsibilities and general load during a potential dynasty run. The plus minus stuff is the least of that and im honestly not a huge plus minus guy
no one has had to ever shoulder a wider variety of responsibilities and general load during a potential dynasty run
Are you talking NBA only? There are only a few "dynasties" to even compare him to: LA, Chicago, San Antonio. Unless you're going back decades. And none of these superstars - Jordan, Shaq, Duncan - had the chance to prove they could carry like James. Safe bet they could have (Jordan without a doubt).
If you're including other sports, it's a complete apples & oranges comparison since no superstar, even a QB, can do it (largely) by himself like a single player can in the NBA. And although he could never get them over the top because he had virtually no support, Hasek carried Buffalo every bit as much as Lebron carries Miami, insofar as you can compare the 2 sports.
It's probably sufficient to effusively praise Lebron using salient statistics without also needing to elevate him above all those other...well, three...dynasties.
Than any one player has meant for a dynasty in any sport since Bill Russell.
You can't just say Jordan could've done it without a doubt. It took him for Pippen to hit his prime and the Pistons to exit theirs for the Bulls to be a real title contender.
LeBron means more to this Heat team than Jordan meant to either 3 peat Bulls teams. And it isn't really that close.
I'm just saying there is no fair comparison. Shaq had Kobe and nice role players. Kobe had Pau. Duncan, the Admiral, Parker, etc. Jordan Pippin then Worm. None of those superstars had the chance to prove an ability to do what James is doing for this Heat team.
He deserves the praise, no doubt. I'm saying it's strange to compare apples to oranges and act like it's a notable point. The only apt comparison I can think of is the aforementioned Hasek and that's another sport and wasn't a dynasty.
on either end without the guys... so i dont even know what the point of "who meant more to whom" is.
if i were to go MOM overanalyze last nights game... i would give the break down of lebron up until Leonard got in foul trouble and then talk about how unimpressive it is to beat Diaw who has a poor defensive ranking in the 2nd quarer of finals games when pace adjusted on Sunday evening start times in the mid west.
lebron was awesome last night. the games will keep getting better. we have a great series going. can we avoid the overanalysis until the series is over.... if the series ended after 2 games last year we would be singing a different tune.
thread is now full of either 1) hockey whiners complaining abou basketball. 2) angry ranger fans who are knicks fans hating on basketball because the knicks have sucked 3) lebron slobber fest.
no need to lobber about something that was very clear last night, especially with he jumper going... hes the best player in the league and it aint close.
the first two games were really good games (well the first one was until Lebron got hurt.)
I am not ready to say how much Lebron carries himself among Russell, Jordan, etc. He gets a shit ton of help from other players, D Wade still goes for about 20 a series in the finals. Guys like Battier, Miller, Chalmers, Haslem, etc have hit huge shots. Bosh was big last night.
From an individual game stand point, Lebron has delivered (except for 2011 finals, but thats another story). But every game he usually gets help from 1-2 role players. Last night it was Rashard Lewis who hit the big shots. Lebron is undoubtedly the best player in the league. I just dont like when people say he is doing it alone (even though last night in the 3rd quarter he was pretty damn awesome).
MJ, Magic, Russell, and Lebron dont win without help. If Ray Allen's 3 misses or SA made free throws last year, he would be stuck with 1 title. But with the help of the role players, he is looking good for a 3 peat.
Lebron on court= miami plus 121
lebron off court= miami minus 29
wade on court= miami plus 29
wade off court= miami plus 63
bosh on court= plus 27
bosh off court= miami plus 65
on/off numbers in small samples can be very misleading, but this is nuts. They are a minus 38 with lebron off the floor vs indy and san antonio. Theyre getting skullfucked whenever spo tries to buy him rest.
I am with MoM on this stat, but I have to throw a wrench in there. If that number with him off the floor in the playoffs is true... then it isn't that bad. Miami was -17 at the end of the game 1 when Miami was up 2 when lebronbleft for good with cramps. SA then outscored them by 17. So if you take that 17 away, its only been -12 for the entire playoffs. Which isn't as bad as it usually is.
Just a little nitpicking but Joe is usually right when lebron leaves the game, the Heat do get crushed.
But it's just a really interesting aspect about LeBron.
- he made the decision to get a ton of help
- fans hated him for jumping to a superteam
- his rings somehow aren't considered as precious because he jumped to a superteam
All that said and the Heat "Superteam" is actually a meh supporting cast for a title winner. They're a .500 team without LeBron. And that's only if Wade can stay healthy carrying the load.
It's just really weird with LeBron. His haters shit on him for going to play with a ton of help. But his defenders point out that he really doesn't have much help.
New York fans, definitely, because they wanted (and in some cases felt they probably deserved) him on their team. They were extra pissed when he declined AND announced his decision 45 minutes away in Greenwich.
Cleveland fans, of course and I think justifiably. The absurd Decision was a prime time, choreographed "fuck you" not just to Cavs fans but to a downtrodden city which has little else to get excited about (and which in a very real way depended on him economically). Why, exactly, could he not just have quietly signed on the dotted line in Miami? I still don't get it...
He chose the spectacle and chose to say douchey things like "take my talents" and, after the Dallas loss where he sucked, "All the people that was [sic] rooting on me to fail, at the end of the day they have to wake up tomorrow and have the same life that they had before they woke up today."
Love his game. It's impossible not to. But the "hate" is rooted in more than that.
is nothing more than him choosing not to be a Knick. I understand why he made his decision and I don't blame him for that, but I'm a Knicks fan first and if you aint with us, your against us. I "hate" him in the sense that I don't want to see him succeed, but there is no denying how good he is. I respect the hell out of him on and off the court. I don't care about his announcement(even though it was dumb). I don't care about his decision to team up with other great players(make no mistake, Wade and Bosh were great players at the time). All I care about is that he chose not to be on my team.
is nothing more than him choosing not to be a Knick. I understand why he made his decision and I don't blame him for that, but I'm a Knicks fan first and if you aint with us, your against us. I "hate" him in the sense that I don't want to see him succeed, but there is no denying how good he is. I respect the hell out of him on and off the court. I don't care about his announcement(even though it was dumb). I don't care about his decision to team up with other great players(make no mistake, Wade and Bosh were great players at the time). All I care about is that he chose not to be on my team.
So any player that isn't a Knick you hate? LeBron made the right decision and I hope he stays in Miami and goes for the 4 peat if they beat SAS.
For the most part I guess. I certainly don't root for any player
not on the knicks. I made it pretty clear that I think Lebron made the right decision as the Knicks are(hopefully were) an absolute mess. That being said, he was in a position to change everything and come to the Knicks and he chose not to. Therefore, he chose to be against us. Not every player has that choice and chooses to not play for my team.
that "hate" is strictly as a bball player. I'm not like a lot of these irrational nutjobs on bbi whos going to turn my hatred of a player into a hatred of a person. It's a freaking sport and I hope he loses at the game of bball. I don't hate Lebron the person and I don't root for him to fail in life. I actually really like him as a person and I think he gets a bad rap(not that I care).
When he is knocking down jumpers like that neither leonard nor diaw or anyone who has ever lived has a shot. And lets be clear about the leonard matchup.... since game 4 of last years finals he has torched him and all comers. Last 6 finals games vs sa (4 of which were on the road) hes averaging 31 a game on over 50 percent shooting
If he caps this series off we are looking at a goat short list playoff run. Never before seen efficiency from a volume scorer in a postseason.
Anyone in the national media today make note of the fact that duncan was blanked for the final 17 or 18 minutes of last nights game? Of course not. Example 1 billion of tim duncan, 21st century athlete, getting 1940s press treatment.
I might buy it if this hasnt been the case for duncans whole career. I saw prime duncan get a total pass for the biggest failure in the history of the olympic team in 04, something that still oddly sticks closer to lebrons legacy than duncan even though he was a teenage bench warmer on that team.
Duncan always gets passes because hes not threatening any legacies that people hold dear
I agree. Weve had this convo before. But when people talk about duncan flying under the radar its almost always within the context you present. It works both ways, this guy has never been dealt with critically at any stage of his career
Duncan's pretty much been lauded since he's been at Wake Forest
he had an unbelievable rookie year that launched him into premiere player status from the get go. You can't tell me that Duncan has been picked apart underneath the media microscope as much as Lebron has. Lebron's faced much more scrutiny ever since he was in Akron.
and was clearly the Alpha on that team despite Robinson still being a great player and veteran. And he played in little San Antonio that no one gives a shit about as we saw during the mid 00's whenever they made the Finals.
Winning early and often in a tiny market had a lot to do with his career.
Tim Duncan has had every bit the career that Larry Bird or Magic Johnson had. He is the MVP of a Finalist at the age of 38. He DESERVES to get passes at this point.
A lot of people give LeBron a pass for his 1st Finals performance. That was a historically poor playoff series for a star scorer in the Finals and it's never mentioned by LeBron haters because of his age. Age is why Duncan isn't getting too much hate now because he is clearly past his prime.
BTW the main reason LeBron sucked in that Finals? Tim Duncan's presence inside forcing LeBron to take contested outside shots with Bruce Bowen all over him.
Feels like a 30 pt triple double game for LeBron tonight.
I like your prediction. I agree!
Agree completely. Just awful to watch. The NBA has become a farce with these idiots.
lebron off court= miami minus 29
wade on court= miami plus 29
wade off court= miami plus 63
bosh on court= plus 27
bosh off court= miami plus 65
on/off numbers in small samples can be very misleading, but this is nuts. They are a minus 38 with lebron off the floor vs indy and san antonio. Theyre getting skullfucked whenever spo tries to buy him rest.
no one has had to ever shoulder a wider variety of responsibilities and general load during a potential dynasty run. The plus minus stuff is the least of that and im honestly not a huge plus minus guy
Are you talking NBA only? There are only a few "dynasties" to even compare him to: LA, Chicago, San Antonio. Unless you're going back decades. And none of these superstars - Jordan, Shaq, Duncan - had the chance to prove they could carry like James. Safe bet they could have (Jordan without a doubt).
If you're including other sports, it's a complete apples & oranges comparison since no superstar, even a QB, can do it (largely) by himself like a single player can in the NBA. And although he could never get them over the top because he had virtually no support, Hasek carried Buffalo every bit as much as Lebron carries Miami, insofar as you can compare the 2 sports.
It's probably sufficient to effusively praise Lebron using salient statistics without also needing to elevate him above all those other...well, three...dynasties.
You can't just say Jordan could've done it without a doubt. It took him for Pippen to hit his prime and the Pistons to exit theirs for the Bulls to be a real title contender.
LeBron means more to this Heat team than Jordan meant to either 3 peat Bulls teams. And it isn't really that close.
He deserves the praise, no doubt. I'm saying it's strange to compare apples to oranges and act like it's a notable point. The only apt comparison I can think of is the aforementioned Hasek and that's another sport and wasn't a dynasty.
if i were to go MOM overanalyze last nights game... i would give the break down of lebron up until Leonard got in foul trouble and then talk about how unimpressive it is to beat Diaw who has a poor defensive ranking in the 2nd quarer of finals games when pace adjusted on Sunday evening start times in the mid west.
lebron was awesome last night. the games will keep getting better. we have a great series going. can we avoid the overanalysis until the series is over.... if the series ended after 2 games last year we would be singing a different tune.
thread is now full of either 1) hockey whiners complaining abou basketball. 2) angry ranger fans who are knicks fans hating on basketball because the knicks have sucked 3) lebron slobber fest.
no need to lobber about something that was very clear last night, especially with he jumper going... hes the best player in the league and it aint close.
I am not ready to say how much Lebron carries himself among Russell, Jordan, etc. He gets a shit ton of help from other players, D Wade still goes for about 20 a series in the finals. Guys like Battier, Miller, Chalmers, Haslem, etc have hit huge shots. Bosh was big last night.
From an individual game stand point, Lebron has delivered (except for 2011 finals, but thats another story). But every game he usually gets help from 1-2 role players. Last night it was Rashard Lewis who hit the big shots. Lebron is undoubtedly the best player in the league. I just dont like when people say he is doing it alone (even though last night in the 3rd quarter he was pretty damn awesome).
MJ, Magic, Russell, and Lebron dont win without help. If Ray Allen's 3 misses or SA made free throws last year, he would be stuck with 1 title. But with the help of the role players, he is looking good for a 3 peat.
lebron off court= miami minus 29
wade on court= miami plus 29
wade off court= miami plus 63
bosh on court= plus 27
bosh off court= miami plus 65
on/off numbers in small samples can be very misleading, but this is nuts. They are a minus 38 with lebron off the floor vs indy and san antonio. Theyre getting skullfucked whenever spo tries to buy him rest.
I am with MoM on this stat, but I have to throw a wrench in there. If that number with him off the floor in the playoffs is true... then it isn't that bad. Miami was -17 at the end of the game 1 when Miami was up 2 when lebronbleft for good with cramps. SA then outscored them by 17. So if you take that 17 away, its only been -12 for the entire playoffs. Which isn't as bad as it usually is.
Just a little nitpicking but Joe is usually right when lebron leaves the game, the Heat do get crushed.
- he made the decision to get a ton of help
- fans hated him for jumping to a superteam
- his rings somehow aren't considered as precious because he jumped to a superteam
All that said and the Heat "Superteam" is actually a meh supporting cast for a title winner. They're a .500 team without LeBron. And that's only if Wade can stay healthy carrying the load.
It's just really weird with LeBron. His haters shit on him for going to play with a ton of help. But his defenders point out that he really doesn't have much help.
Cleveland fans, of course and I think justifiably. The absurd Decision was a prime time, choreographed "fuck you" not just to Cavs fans but to a downtrodden city which has little else to get excited about (and which in a very real way depended on him economically). Why, exactly, could he not just have quietly signed on the dotted line in Miami? I still don't get it...
He chose the spectacle and chose to say douchey things like "take my talents" and, after the Dallas loss where he sucked, "All the people that was [sic] rooting on me to fail, at the end of the day they have to wake up tomorrow and have the same life that they had before they woke up today."
Love his game. It's impossible not to. But the "hate" is rooted in more than that.
So any player that isn't a Knick you hate? LeBron made the right decision and I hope he stays in Miami and goes for the 4 peat if they beat SAS.
If he caps this series off we are looking at a goat short list playoff run. Never before seen efficiency from a volume scorer in a postseason.
Although Duncan's 0/2 at the line in that crucial period....inexcusable.
Duncan always gets passes because hes not threatening any legacies that people hold dear
Winning early and often in a tiny market had a lot to do with his career.
Tim Duncan has had every bit the career that Larry Bird or Magic Johnson had. He is the MVP of a Finalist at the age of 38. He DESERVES to get passes at this point.
A lot of people give LeBron a pass for his 1st Finals performance. That was a historically poor playoff series for a star scorer in the Finals and it's never mentioned by LeBron haters because of his age. Age is why Duncan isn't getting too much hate now because he is clearly past his prime.
BTW the main reason LeBron sucked in that Finals? Tim Duncan's presence inside forcing LeBron to take contested outside shots with Bruce Bowen all over him.