he had an unbelievable rookie year that launched him into premiere player status from the get go. You can't tell me that Duncan has been picked apart underneath the media microscope as much as Lebron has. Lebron's faced much more scrutiny ever since he was in Akron.
LeBron is far more hated than Duncan ever was... but
LeBron is far more loved than Duncan ever was
LeBron is far more talked about than Duncan ever was
LeBron is the most popular athlete in America
Duncan never approached that status despite similar performance
It also deserves mention that Duncan came into a great scenario
David Robinson and Sean Elliot were past their peaks, but they brought playoff experience and leadership to the table. Sure, SA won the lotto, but they were essentially a playoff team that was blatantly tanking. I think organizational culture and stability is something that is not mentioned enough. That Cavs team was clearly outmatched and had no business getting to the Finals. Prime Duncan up against a plodding C with bad feet in Z. Parker with 5 years under his belt. Pop against Mike Brown (Yikes!). Manu in peak 6th man form. Cleveland had a cast that included the likes of Boobie Gibson, and Sasha Pavlovic seeing a lot of minutes in the Finals.
I believe the '07 Spurs are the best NBA team since the Shaq/Kobe Dynasty was in peak form. Duncan was slowly exiting his absolute peak but was still a dominant force. The rest of the team was very strong.
The '07 Cavs had no business beating them in that Finals. But that being said, LeBron did have a poor series even taking that into consideration. And it gets overlooked because of his age and situation.
Because it has always been this way. This could be his 8th or 9th series loss with homecourt
no one expects 03 duncan today. But hes still a beast, and playing in a matchup that lends itself more to him beasting than against anyone in the league. If they win this series, people wont treat his ring as any less deserved than lebrons even though the load is fractional to lebrons. When he goes out and drops 30 and dominate the first 30 minutes of a finals closeout game last year and then not score a point in the final 23 including ot, I think its fair to call him out on the disappearance. When he has 18 early to mid 3rd last night and doesnt score again, same deal
it's San Antonio, an afterthought of an American city (not deserved, IMO). In NY, LA, Miami, Chicago or even Dallas he'd have a stronger lens upon him.
Duncan has already won four rings and is a surefire HoF'er, so has little nothing left to prove.
Brodeur has had some brutal stretches in recent years. It doesn't get much attention because he plays in Newark and because he is a proven all-time great with an unquestionably great career to call out.
Even if you contend it's "always been this way." Well...he was winning so often and in such a dominant fashion that he never really had a Lebron v Dallas moment in his career.
Anyone in the national media today make note of the fact that duncan was blanked for the final 17 or 18 minutes of last nights game? Of course not. Example 1 billion of tim duncan, 21st century athlete, getting 1940s press treatment.
I am disappointed in you Joe. I called him right out after the game for a miserable last 3 quarters. He was absolutely dreadful and one of the main reasons they lost.
it's San Antonio, an afterthought of an American city (not deserved, IMO). In NY, LA, Miami, Chicago or even Dallas he'd have a stronger lens upon him.
Duncan has already won four rings and is a surefire HoF'er, so has little nothing left to prove.
Brodeur has had some brutal stretches in recent years. It doesn't get much attention because he plays in Newark and because he is a proven all-time great with an unquestionably great career to call out.
Even if you contend it's "always been this way." Well...he was winning so often and in such a dominant fashion that he never really had a Lebron v Dallas moment in his career.
He should also have to answer to the criticism that San Antonio has NEVER defended the crown successfully. There's something to be said to win the Finals, come in next season with a huge target on your back by the rest of the league, and still being able to win the championship. It kind of highlights your dominance during that stretch. To be fair to Duncan, I think 3 of those playoff exits following a championship were foiled by the Lakers.
I obviously forgot to add whining about Tim Duncan of all things, to he ridiculousness that is he current Nba thread
1) hockey fans hating
2) rangers fans angry his knocks fans angry thus hating
3) lebron slurp fest on performances we all saw and appreciated as awesome but need it regurgitated in every odd stat
4) hating Tim Duncan for a strange strange strange reason
Awesome! Another great finals and it's not even discussed here
When this conversation about tim duncan is construed as hating. I know its completely foreign to hear his name mentioned without the generic phrase "doesnt get enough credit" within the paragraph, ultimately the absence of which is perhaps too much for some peoples brains to process.
I dont hate tim duncan. Not as a player or as a person. Everything I said was completely accurate though.
One that miami will probably have to protect home court to win. But the more I watch these teams battle, the more I think the enhanced familiarity from 13 meetings and counting the last two years favors miami more than san antonio. Lebron has seen every defensive look pop can throw at him by this point and is out there just reacting with his counter attacks rather than over thinking things as he did early in last years finals when they packed the paint and went under every screen. Defensively theyve just got a better beat on the spurs motion offense which is unique and difficult to simulate without that familiarity, no one forces more rotations or causes you to expend more energy on that end
They could still very much lose this series but I like where they are more today than last year at this time
They should have been slammed for choking away the finals last year, which would have made LeBron 1-2 in the finals and subjected him to a lot more scrutiny then he is under right now.
As is the discussion surrounding any player that revolves solely on ring count or the even more backward line of thinking that treats finals losses worse than non appearances, the over protection of others legacies have led to some braindead moving of goal posts
Theres never been a player who impacted the game decisively more at the peak of his powers. The fact that the ring count has begun to reflect that level of play doesnt make him any better individually, it just gives mouthbreathers less to pick at. Had they won last years finals or not, he was the best player on the floor in the series decisively, even while struggling the first 3 games. You can call it a spurs choke all you want, I can also call it 5 of the best quarters ever strung together consecutively in finals play by lebron in the 4th quarter of game 6 and all of game 7. People who only want to recall the last 23 seconds of that game need to watch that game a second time. That was once a 15 point lead in that second half erased by one man going into god mode, scoring or assisting on 23 straight and shutting down parker on the other end. Dropping 30 with a triple double, something done just 3 times in finals history before it
not bailed the Heat out last year LeBron would have gotten killed in the media. And while I do like LeBron and feel the criticism of him sometimes is crazy, he would have deserved it. He was not good in that finals to that point.
had lebron not been amazing in the second half of that game
Ray allens shot would not have mattered. And thats why you have teammates. Those were about the only three points lebron didnt score or assist on in the last 15 minutes of that game.
1 minute left in the 3rd, spurs up 75 to 63. In the 18 minutes that followed including ot, the heat made exactly two field goals that werent scored or assisted by lebron. Two. One of which was the allen three. And in that time they outscored san antonio 40 to 25
San antonio is just clearly the better team. Everyone is going to make this about lebron because thats what people do (I will not bang my head against the wall combatting idiocy) I dont know that any individual who ever lived could swing the balance of this series in his place, hes largely been terrific. Miami is just overmatched, and theyre going to have a bunch of decisions to make this offseason. My suspicion is they dont have the balls to do whats right with wade.
San antonio is just clearly the better team. Everyone is going to make this about lebron because thats what people do (I will not bang my head against the wall combatting idiocy) I dont know that any individual who ever lived could swing the balance of this series in his place, hes largely been terrific. Miami is just overmatched, and theyre going to have a bunch of decisions to make this offseason. My suspicion is they dont have the balls to do whats right with wade.
Wade and Bosh.
In all honesty, hes better going off to Cleveland with Kyrie. Cleveland should trade the number 1 pick and look for a Love/Noah type player. Imagien Noah with those 2/
San antonio is just clearly the better team. Everyone is going to make this about lebron because thats what people do (I will not bang my head against the wall combatting idiocy) I dont know that any individual who ever lived could swing the balance of this series in his place, hes largely been terrific. Miami is just overmatched, and theyre going to have a bunch of decisions to make this offseason. My suspicion is they dont have the balls to do whats right with wade.
Miami do whats right with Wade when Wade is the one that has the two player options for 20+ million each year. They would need Wade to cooperate to kick him to the curb
Forget the obvious fact that the big 3 core is unsustainable, but the rest of this team is a mess going forward. Everyone talks about the spurs age but miami is the oldest team in the league, not the spurs. The roster is ancient and will need to be completely revamped very soon, and its most aparrent on the defensive end. Lebron, chalmers and cole are the only guys in the rotation on the right side of 30, and the latter two are completely replaceable.
I think hes going to stay in miami though, and unless riley has something up his sleeve, I think he will regret it
Wade is going to opt out this offseason whether we think it makes sense or not. I dont expect miami to be as coldblooded as they should be for a 32 year old with a bad knee who can probably never play more than 80 games in a season again (including playoffs), but lets see what type of deal they agree to. I dont think riley is going to pay him 85 plus percent of the max.
I actually could see Lebron opting in now and taking a wait and see
approach with Miami. I think he does want to stay there, but like MoM said, if he does there is a good chance he will regret it. It's probably in his best interests to put off free agency for 1 more year so that he will have a more clear picture of what the future in South Beach is going to look like.
Wade is going to opt out this offseason whether we think it makes sense or not. I dont expect miami to be as coldblooded as they should be for a 32 year old with a bad knee who can probably never play more than 80 games in a season again (including playoffs), but lets see what type of deal they agree to. I dont think riley is going to pay him 85 plus percent of the max.
If Wade opts out they aren't going to then kick him to the curb, and they shouldn't. He'd be doing them a big favor by opting out so you can't just then tell him to f off, if he opts out he will already know what kind of deal he's getting from them
but man these teams are on 2 different levels and the Heat look like shit. Non-Lebrons totally useless and even Lebron at times has been sluggish and apprehensive. But this series is more about the Spurs being awesome than Miami sucking.
I hope there's a rebalancing in the league this off-season. Would be great to see a more competitive East. Hopefully Rose can actually stay healthy.
For financial security, not out of the goodness of his heart. Right now someone will hand him a contract with a lump sum worth well more than whatever he is owed opting in even if spread out over more years. There is no guarantee he will command anything in a couple years with a chronic knee problem that already requires him to sit once every 3 games just to arrive in the playoffs in one piece. In 2 years I think he is a candidate to be completely irrelevant
isn't getting anywhere near max money if he opts out. He'd probably get like 12 million a year on the open market, which means he'd basically have to get 4 years 45 million on the open market just to make the same amount that he would make in Miami by simply staying these next two years where they owe him 42 million. The 3 million difference made up by no state sales tax among other things.
There is no upside to opting out besides taking less money to stay with Heat. He's not opting out to get more money elsewhere, because he won't get it. Chances are even 2 years from now he'll still be able to get 5-6 million from someone if not more. The ONLY way he would come out ahead by opting out and going somewhere else versus staying in Miami and playing out the final 2 years is if he has to retire after the next 2 years, and even then he would still probably break even.
once was, he's not a guy that puts people in the seats. You aren't going to sell your fan base on the direction of your team and get them to show up because you signed a 32 year old Dwayne Wade.
When wade was awful and lebron was passive and just a guy. Kahwi Leonard the best player on the court in the 2 most important games of the finals. Amazing
You are really underestimating how much wade could get annually especially with a rising cap. And miami would probably be willing to give him a 5th year, something like 5 for 75 or even 5 for 70 would be a paycut annually but still net him 30 plus mil more that he is likely to never see if he risks opting in and eventually hitting free agency at a time where his value is lessened.
On another note I dont know who the hell to name mvp of this finals for sa because you can go many directions, and none of them are having close to the series lebron is. I dont think we could see the mvp go to a player on a losing team in the 21st century, but there is precedent for it both in the nba finals and the superbowl. People may want to poo poo lebron and his 70 plus percent true shooting percentage because of the margins of some of these games early, but game 4 was his only down first half in the series. There is no spur playing nearly as well as him. This series is like the nba equivalent of a scene from nat geo wild where a cape buffalo is fighting off a pride of 12 lions clawing all over his back
The 2 biggest games of the series and Leonard was the best forward on the court.
Lebron stunk in the first half last night being passive when it mattered and compiled when it was a blowout. Game 3 was stat compiling as well with a solid minus 20 worst on the team.
He was awesome in game 2, MVP best in the work caliber play. Otherwise he has not stood out as even sniffing an m v p on a losing team.
The san antonio spurs are making 19 threes a game and shooting 47 percent from downtown. Thats why theyre leading this series, because of a team wide historic offensive display. Not because leonard has come close to outplaying lebron, who is shooting about 70 percent against him. Miami cant get stops against a 10 prong attack. Switch lebron and leonard and the spurs have this wrapped up with 4 blowouts
You cant dismiss lebrons 3rd quarter last night as compiling during garbage time, because if any other heat player could make a shot or if they could somehow ever string stops together, there was still plenty of time to make it a game. He was the only guy playing. When his team is outclassed to the tune of 20 point early deficits, thats not on him. He didnt have a great first half last night. He did have a great first half in game 3 and that did not stop a similar beatdown.
there is not 1 spur having close to the series lebron is individually. This is about the most efficient shooting from a volume scorer ever in a finals. There is not 1 player who ever lived who would change the outcome of the series in his place
anyway, hes not going to win mvp. But whoever does will have had the clearly inferior series. This is about the most balanced attack weve seen in the finals. A spur will get it by default, but its very tough to pick one
in three different decades. That's incredible. People get on the Spurs for not winning back to back, but the longevity of their relevance has been so impressive.
Would you not agree that either choice would rank among the few least impressive finals mvp series weve ever seen? Leonard has scored in the single digits in half the games in the series, and allowing lebron to shoot nearly 70 percent against him.
The spurs are uniquely built and a true team in the truest sense of the word. They are dominating a finals series without a single individual playing on an all nba caliber level.
only have one guy on their team who can create and they have too many older players who are not good enough or fit enough defensively to keep up with the barrage of competent weapons on the Spurs team. It's not that all the players on the Spurs are stars, just that they all bought into the system, are exceuting the system, and are doing the things that they do well.
An individual basketball player has more influence than in any other sport, but it still takes a team effort to win. And right now, Lebron's supporting cast just isn't good enough to beat a team playing at a level of team basketball that I have never seen before in my life.
I'm not saying this Spurs team is the best team I've ever seen-- because I think other teams with multiple stars in their primes were better. But this Spurs team plays better TEAM basketball than I can remember. If you're a coach at any level, this Finals is what you show your players to teach them about a team's potential when the players work together. It's beautiful. I keep looking to spot Steve Nash in black and silver.
I despise the Heat, but watching the non-Lebrons get destroyed only elevates my opinion of Lebron's value.
LeBron has easily been the best individual in the series. And there isn't one Spurs player that stands out, it's just a collective effort. Leonard is probably the guy who stands out the most but he had 2 really poor games to start it off.
I disagree. I think the Spurs individual players are playing at an extremely high level. However, because there is so much ball movement, their individual usage is lower and so no single player has to carry the load; or, the load isn't disproportionately carried by the few stars on the team such that would cause them to have eye-popping numbers.
Some player on the Spurs certainly could put up far bigger numbers, but it would likely be to the team's detriment and caused by taking less optimal chances than what they are doing by keeping the ball in constant motion until a player is open.
Lebron has to be gassed from carrying the team all season while Wade rested his knees, and now having to shoulder such a load in the finals because no one else on the team can create or play tough defense.
Leonard has been fantastic, and the Heat are just not capable of handling another Spur who can continually score. But how much of Leonard's offensive success can be attributed to the opportunity of the Heat focusing on Duncan/Parker/Ginobli as well as the excellent passing by Diaw to make it even easier for Leonard?
If you saw those numbers for a PF you'd think he was an awful player. But he makes such an impact in other ways that he's a net positive for that team.
LeBron needs to shoot a lot more to give his team a chance. Unlike younger Kobe who used to play to PPG too much, I think LeBron plays to a PER and TS% too much. It's evidenced by his refusal to take half court shots at the end of quarters. If his team starts out struggling again, he needs to gun for 50 even if his efficiency takes a hit. It's not like his team is scoring that efficiently anyway. And with him in score mode, his teammates will get better looks and their efficiency might go out.
The heat went a plus 2 without lebron in game 3 (minus 3 first half, plus 5 2nd half) thats the only game in the series they went a plus without him, and certainly not by any substantial margin.
paul, theres not a top 12 player on that team. Maybe not top 15. They didnt even have a player average 30 minutes a game this season, the first team in nba history to ever have that happen. Not just the first team to do that and win a title, the first team to do that period. They are incredibly deep, and obviously very talented, but their top end talent is definitely weaker than most title teams. That doesnt make them any less impressive a champion, or any less great of a team. But the composition of the team is an outlier among champs
I think the 1st in BBI history. Although obviously this was a season long thread so it's not fair to compare this to a Giants game thread. Still, pretty crazy.
LeBron is far more hated than Duncan ever was... but
LeBron is far more loved than Duncan ever was
LeBron is far more talked about than Duncan ever was
LeBron is the most popular athlete in America
Duncan never approached that status despite similar performance
The '07 Cavs had no business beating them in that Finals. But that being said, LeBron did have a poor series even taking that into consideration. And it gets overlooked because of his age and situation.
no one expects 03 duncan today. But hes still a beast, and playing in a matchup that lends itself more to him beasting than against anyone in the league. If they win this series, people wont treat his ring as any less deserved than lebrons even though the load is fractional to lebrons. When he goes out and drops 30 and dominate the first 30 minutes of a finals closeout game last year and then not score a point in the final 23 including ot, I think its fair to call him out on the disappearance. When he has 18 early to mid 3rd last night and doesnt score again, same deal
Duncan has already won four rings and is a surefire HoF'er, so has little nothing left to prove.
Brodeur has had some brutal stretches in recent years. It doesn't get much attention because he plays in Newark and because he is a proven all-time great with an unquestionably great career to call out.
Even if you contend it's "always been this way." Well...he was winning so often and in such a dominant fashion that he never really had a Lebron v Dallas moment in his career.
I am disappointed in you Joe. I called him right out after the game for a miserable last 3 quarters. He was absolutely dreadful and one of the main reasons they lost.
But I am not national media :(
Duncan has already won four rings and is a surefire HoF'er, so has little nothing left to prove.
Brodeur has had some brutal stretches in recent years. It doesn't get much attention because he plays in Newark and because he is a proven all-time great with an unquestionably great career to call out.
Even if you contend it's "always been this way." Well...he was winning so often and in such a dominant fashion that he never really had a Lebron v Dallas moment in his career.
He should also have to answer to the criticism that San Antonio has NEVER defended the crown successfully. There's something to be said to win the Finals, come in next season with a huge target on your back by the rest of the league, and still being able to win the championship. It kind of highlights your dominance during that stretch. To be fair to Duncan, I think 3 of those playoff exits following a championship were foiled by the Lakers.
1) hockey fans hating
2) rangers fans angry his knocks fans angry thus hating
3) lebron slurp fest on performances we all saw and appreciated as awesome but need it regurgitated in every odd stat
4) hating Tim Duncan for a strange strange strange reason
Awesome! Another great finals and it's not even discussed here
I dont hate tim duncan. Not as a player or as a person. Everything I said was completely accurate though.
They could still very much lose this series but I like where they are more today than last year at this time
They should have been slammed for choking away the finals last year, which would have made LeBron 1-2 in the finals and subjected him to a lot more scrutiny then he is under right now.
Theres never been a player who impacted the game decisively more at the peak of his powers. The fact that the ring count has begun to reflect that level of play doesnt make him any better individually, it just gives mouthbreathers less to pick at. Had they won last years finals or not, he was the best player on the floor in the series decisively, even while struggling the first 3 games. You can call it a spurs choke all you want, I can also call it 5 of the best quarters ever strung together consecutively in finals play by lebron in the 4th quarter of game 6 and all of game 7. People who only want to recall the last 23 seconds of that game need to watch that game a second time. That was once a 15 point lead in that second half erased by one man going into god mode, scoring or assisting on 23 straight and shutting down parker on the other end. Dropping 30 with a triple double, something done just 3 times in finals history before it
Wade and Bosh.
In all honesty, hes better going off to Cleveland with Kyrie. Cleveland should trade the number 1 pick and look for a Love/Noah type player. Imagien Noah with those 2/
Noah
Thompson
Lebron
Waiters
Irving
Yowza.
Don't put anything past Riley.
I think hes going to stay in miami though, and unless riley has something up his sleeve, I think he will regret it
If Wade opts out they aren't going to then kick him to the curb, and they shouldn't. He'd be doing them a big favor by opting out so you can't just then tell him to f off, if he opts out he will already know what kind of deal he's getting from them
I hope there's a rebalancing in the league this off-season. Would be great to see a more competitive East. Hopefully Rose can actually stay healthy.
There is no upside to opting out besides taking less money to stay with Heat. He's not opting out to get more money elsewhere, because he won't get it. Chances are even 2 years from now he'll still be able to get 5-6 million from someone if not more. The ONLY way he would come out ahead by opting out and going somewhere else versus staying in Miami and playing out the final 2 years is if he has to retire after the next 2 years, and even then he would still probably break even.
On another note I dont know who the hell to name mvp of this finals for sa because you can go many directions, and none of them are having close to the series lebron is. I dont think we could see the mvp go to a player on a losing team in the 21st century, but there is precedent for it both in the nba finals and the superbowl. People may want to poo poo lebron and his 70 plus percent true shooting percentage because of the margins of some of these games early, but game 4 was his only down first half in the series. There is no spur playing nearly as well as him. This series is like the nba equivalent of a scene from nat geo wild where a cape buffalo is fighting off a pride of 12 lions clawing all over his back
Lebron stunk in the first half last night being passive when it mattered and compiled when it was a blowout. Game 3 was stat compiling as well with a solid minus 20 worst on the team.
He was awesome in game 2, MVP best in the work caliber play. Otherwise he has not stood out as even sniffing an m v p on a losing team.
You cant dismiss lebrons 3rd quarter last night as compiling during garbage time, because if any other heat player could make a shot or if they could somehow ever string stops together, there was still plenty of time to make it a game. He was the only guy playing. When his team is outclassed to the tune of 20 point early deficits, thats not on him. He didnt have a great first half last night. He did have a great first half in game 3 and that did not stop a similar beatdown.
there is not 1 spur having close to the series lebron is individually. This is about the most efficient shooting from a volume scorer ever in a finals. There is not 1 player who ever lived who would change the outcome of the series in his place
anyway, hes not going to win mvp. But whoever does will have had the clearly inferior series. This is about the most balanced attack weve seen in the finals. A spur will get it by default, but its very tough to pick one
The spurs are uniquely built and a true team in the truest sense of the word. They are dominating a finals series without a single individual playing on an all nba caliber level.
An individual basketball player has more influence than in any other sport, but it still takes a team effort to win. And right now, Lebron's supporting cast just isn't good enough to beat a team playing at a level of team basketball that I have never seen before in my life.
I'm not saying this Spurs team is the best team I've ever seen-- because I think other teams with multiple stars in their primes were better. But this Spurs team plays better TEAM basketball than I can remember. If you're a coach at any level, this Finals is what you show your players to teach them about a team's potential when the players work together. It's beautiful. I keep looking to spot Steve Nash in black and silver.
I despise the Heat, but watching the non-Lebrons get destroyed only elevates my opinion of Lebron's value.
It's definitely a unique Finals MVP vote.
Some player on the Spurs certainly could put up far bigger numbers, but it would likely be to the team's detriment and caused by taking less optimal chances than what they are doing by keeping the ball in constant motion until a player is open.
Leonard has been fantastic, and the Heat are just not capable of handling another Spur who can continually score. But how much of Leonard's offensive success can be attributed to the opportunity of the Heat focusing on Duncan/Parker/Ginobli as well as the excellent passing by Diaw to make it even easier for Leonard?
34.5 MPG
6.5 PPG
.385 FG%
1 block
If you saw those numbers for a PF you'd think he was an awful player. But he makes such an impact in other ways that he's a net positive for that team.
paul, theres not a top 12 player on that team. Maybe not top 15. They didnt even have a player average 30 minutes a game this season, the first team in nba history to ever have that happen. Not just the first team to do that and win a title, the first team to do that period. They are incredibly deep, and obviously very talented, but their top end talent is definitely weaker than most title teams. That doesnt make them any less impressive a champion, or any less great of a team. But the composition of the team is an outlier among champs