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Great Blue North's latest 1st rd. projection

njm : 11/6/2013 12:42 pm
Though the Giants get a talent, I'd be hoping for a trade down



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I thought all the  
pjcas18 : 11/6/2013 1:37 pm : link
"experts" have been saying Pugh is doing fine at tackle, in fact better than fine for a rookie - especially compared with his fellow draftee OT's.

Why are people suggesting to move him?
RE: Or we could try and grab Gabe Jackson in the second,  
Optimus-NY : 11/6/2013 1:37 pm : link
In comment 11322485 Ash said:
Quote:
sign Asamoah and a serviceable center, and draft a defensive playmaker or Evans/Watkins and see how that works.

There are many ways to skin a cat.


That's too much money committed to the O-Line IMO. Gotta get some high draft picks in there. The Giants are paying the price for not drafting well in the middle rounds at O-Line (Brewer and Mosley).
In  
AcidTest : 11/6/2013 1:38 pm : link
that situation, I'd go for current fan fav Mack, and hope for Gabe Jackson in the second. Mack might well be available, assuming we pick in the top ten, but I'm not sure Jackson would last until the second. We also need a CB. I know ChicagoMarty beats that drum every year, but this year he's right. Ross and Webster most likely won't return.

Pugh also isn't moving to guard.

Assuming Nicks is gone, you resign Joseph and Patterson, and get a high quality FA guard. But then we still need a center, so that might take another FA signing, although I think I read that Herman and Goodin are working at center. In any event, we have to hope that at least two of Herman, Goodin, Mosley, and Brewer can be decent backups or starters. Diehl, Snee, Cordle, and most likely Boothe are gone.
RE: We dont need a tackle..  
Simms11 : 11/6/2013 1:42 pm : link
In comment 11322406 Blue Blood said:
Quote:
moving Pugh inside could wind up being a huge disaster.. Giants need to stop the musical chairs with the OL.. Pugh has NEVER played inside.. and is doing well outside.. why move him..


Blueblood, agree......we need to stop screwing around with projects and potential on the oline... let's get some linemen in here that we know can do the job inside. As I've said before, we need snot-knockers inside. Guys that can push the DLine back the other way. Let's finally invest what we must to solidify the interior once and for all. Stop with the thoughts of putting Pugh inside. There's no guarantee he would excel inside and quite frankly has been getting better on the outside. Giants see him as a RT. If we are to improve the interior, we can't screw around with two more positions on the outside. There's already going to be too much turmoil on theline anyway.
If a blue goose LT  
Phil from WNY : 11/6/2013 1:45 pm : link
is there in the first, I'd take him despite Beatty. Ideally, you don't want to start a rookie at LT if you can avoid it which would give the Giants one more year to amortize his bonus. This would give you three guys on the roster that could play LT.

Also, I expect the Giants to keep Baas another year if they can find a center in the draft. This assumes that a center isn't available in free agency at the right price. Jim Cordle continuing to improve through the rest of the season would make it easier for them to bet on the draft.

The wildcard is their views on Brewer/Mosely. I'll be surprised if one of them isn't starting next year.
Question: how many of you trust Beatty?  
Optimus-NY : 11/6/2013 1:47 pm : link
I don't. The Giants have made their bed with him to a degree until after 2015 or maybe 2014, so they'll have to sleep in it. No disagreement there (see his salary cap page below). I hope I'm wrong about him, but I think he'll wind up being an albatross around their necks.

Will Beatty's salary cap page courtesy of overthecap.com - ( New Window )
No, it's not a fact  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/6/2013 1:47 pm : link
It's an opinion. And so is Kirwan's.

Quote:
Fact is this: the Giants overestimated his ability and overpaid him as a result (call up or tweet Pat Kirwan and he'll emphasize that).


1 year ago nobody wanted to lose the guy. 4 NFL weeks into this season and suddenly he lacks ability rather than just had a couple of bad games.

This is poor analysis.

Financially  
pjcas18 : 11/6/2013 1:48 pm : link
I'm pretty sure the Giants have to keep Baas another year.

It just doesn't make cap sense to cut him.

I defer to Optimus on the particulars, but think it's not really open for discussion.

based on over the cap, it looks like to save 1.7 on the cap by cutting Baas you'd have almost 6.5M in dead cap space.

Even the following year he still has a good chunk of dead money, I guess the cost of restructuring.
I can't imagine the Giants will leave  
SwirlingEddie : 11/6/2013 1:49 pm : link
the resolution of their OL issues up to the vagaries of the draft. You never put yourself in a hole where you must get someone at a particular position via the draft. The Giants will make FA moves, and though that won't be a cure-all, it will be enough to change this whole discussion.
I'd be throwing my remote along with TTH.  
Victor in CT : 11/6/2013 1:51 pm : link
If anything is obvious from this season, it's that the Giants have neglected the trenches for too long. This is a draft that screams to trade down from #7. I count 4 OLs, 4 LBs and 5 DLs going after that pick. A WR would be a foolish pick there. Trade down and add quality reinforcements to the lines or LB.
If the Giants are stuck with Baas for another year....  
njm : 11/6/2013 1:51 pm : link
they can likely get Travis Swanson with their 3rd rd. pick and let him pick up the system for a year.
I  
AcidTest : 11/6/2013 1:52 pm : link
don't see the Giants keeping Baas. I think he's a June 1 cut, as Optimus has suggested. That allows the Giants to spread the cap hit over two years.
TTH - I've never been a big Beatty fan  
Optimus-NY : 11/6/2013 1:52 pm : link
That's just for the record. I trust Kirwan's opinion over BBI's. That's just me.
If Baas  
pjcas18 : 11/6/2013 1:54 pm : link
is healthy, I doubt the Giants cut him. If he's not I guess there's a chance.
Ash - I definitely should aplogize to you. I took it too far.  
Optimus-NY : 11/6/2013 1:54 pm : link
That wasn't cool. I let my frustration with Beatty get the best of me and misdirected it at you. Foolish thing to do, especially on a sports message board. It won't happen again.
njm - I'd love Swanson on this team.  
Optimus-NY : 11/6/2013 1:56 pm : link
Problem is what to do for a stop gap for a year at Center. Sign Boothe as a stop-gap, or maybe the guy on the Steelers subbing for Pouncey? That'll be the trick. Swanson is a primo Center prospect though, probably the best in this year's draft.
If we were able to get Sua-Filo  
barens : 11/6/2013 1:56 pm : link
in the second round, we'd be very lucky. I think by the time the draft rolls around, people will be talking about him as a first round pick.
ONY,  
AnishPatel : 11/6/2013 1:57 pm : link
Neither have I. I am hoping we go OT and have that rookie battle it out. A WR or Barr would be great too, especially if Nicks leaves, which I think will happen.
Evans would be a great pick.  
barens : 11/6/2013 1:58 pm : link
He seems to be perfect for how Eli throws the ball. He's a big receiver who wins those jump balls, and has gotten really good at hauling in back shoulder throws.
pjcas, sort of goes without saying..  
barens : 11/6/2013 2:00 pm : link
..
Evans can definitely play though.  
Optimus-NY : 11/6/2013 2:02 pm : link
The Giants would be getting an "A level" talent if they did draft him to replace Nicks, that's for sure.
RE: TTH - I've never been a big Beatty fan  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/6/2013 2:03 pm : link
In comment 11322535 Optimus-NY said:
Quote:
That's just for the record. I trust Kirwan's opinion over BBI's. That's just me.


You are 100% entitled to your opinion.

I listen to Kirwan's opinion on many things, but he's hardly an infallible judge by any stretch. He was a scout for 4 years and a capologist and contracts man. None of that tells me Jerry Reese has a lot to learn from him.
TTH - That's more than fair about Kirwan.  
Optimus-NY : 11/6/2013 2:07 pm : link
The reason my opinion is what it is regarding Beatty is not solely because of him though. I don't think it was a coincidence that the Giants were better running the ball in 2011 after Diehl took over duties at OLT after Beatty got hurt for the year. I question his strength in the run game, especially from the lower body (his legs). Kirwan's assessment made sense to me in this regard. I hope I'm wrong though, believe me.
RE: RE: We dont need a tackle..  
PeterS : 11/6/2013 2:11 pm : link
In comment 11322512 Simms11 said:
Quote:
In comment 11322406 Blue Blood said:


Quote:


moving Pugh inside could wind up being a huge disaster.. Giants need to stop the musical chairs with the OL.. Pugh has NEVER played inside.. and is doing well outside.. why move him..



Blueblood, agree......we need to stop screwing around with projects and potential on the oline... let's get some linemen in here that we know can do the job inside. As I've said before, we need snot-knockers inside. Guys that can push the DLine back the other way. Let's finally invest what we must to solidify the interior once and for all. Stop with the thoughts of putting Pugh inside. There's no guarantee he would excel inside and quite frankly has been getting better on the outside. Giants see him as a RT. If we are to improve the interior, we can't screw around with two more positions on the outside. There's already going to be too much turmoil on theline anyway.
I'm looking forward to the day when moving Pugh to guard goes away like the short arm BS. He's a fine tackle, grading out better than any of the other OT's in the 2013 draft. DEAL WITH IT PEOPLE!
Unless there's a complete FA-laden overhaul of the OL,  
Shockeyisthebest80 : 11/6/2013 2:13 pm : link
taking Evans would be ridiculous. I like Evans a lot, but he's not Larry Fitzgerald or AJ Green... a high-end talent that just can't be passed up regardless of the holes on a team. I'd either take Lewan in that spot or trade down with an eye on Mosley.
Fair. Beatty has always been ahead of the game in pass pro  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/6/2013 2:15 pm : link
and weaker in run blocking.

But if we're giving credit to Diehl for helping improve the running in 2011, it's important to note that in 2011, the Giants rushed for 1427 yards on 411 carries. 3.5 average.

In 2012, the Giants rushed for 1862 yards on 408 carries, 4.6 average with Diehl only starting 10 games and Beatty starting 15, and David Wilson a nonfactor.





I'm no scout  
pjcas18 : 11/6/2013 2:15 pm : link
but from what I've seen of him, that's exactly what Evans is (so I disagree):

Quote:
but he's not Larry Fitzgerald or AJ Green... a high-end talent that just can't be passed up regardless of the holes
it would be one thing  
santacruzom : 11/6/2013 2:20 pm : link
for the front office to remain aware of the possibility that Beatty can improve turn in a better 2014 season. But it's another thing altogether to consider it a probability, and I think it's been that kind of thinking that has laid the poor foundation for this current OL. Snee, Bass, and Diehl have all been counted on to return to some past form, and I hope the Giants don't count on Beatty improving with the same certainty they seem to had towards the other three.
He's not as good as those guys and that's not even a knock.  
Shockeyisthebest80 : 11/6/2013 2:21 pm : link
It's just that those guys (and Megatron, obviously) are players that MUST be drafted even if you have 100% healthy Nicks and Cruz because they're simply that good. Evans, while better, is closer to Michael Floyd than AJ Green. JMO.
wanting to trade down is fine  
santacruzom : 11/6/2013 2:24 pm : link
But there's no guarantee that will be a good option. If this draft class is as deep as many project it to be, you might not find too many willing trade partners and might have to settle upon one whose return picks aren't a better asset than the Giants' ultimate pick.
Just as one data point on Beatty  
pjcas18 : 11/6/2013 2:24 pm : link
is the PFF ratings....

I know they're polarizing (to be polite), but FWIW the other highly rated tackles are not really debated about if they're good or not.

Beatty was rated 2nd best NFC LT for 2012 and had a very good run block rating.

I wonder if not having Martellus Bennett and/or Ahmad Bradshaw has an impact on the run game as much as Beatty and the o-line.

And  
pjcas18 : 11/6/2013 2:31 pm : link
also FWIW Beatty was well regarded by PFF in 2011 as well. Not quite as high, but higher than Diehl (in his 10 games).
Reese is not going to take an OL in the first round  
BigBlueCane : 11/6/2013 6:02 pm : link
back to back years unless there's major drop off elsewhere.

He's eyeing the two ND kids and Dixon right now.
RE: Reese is not going to take an OL in the first round  
Optimus-NY : 11/6/2013 6:34 pm : link
In comment 11322973 BigBlueCane said:
Quote:
back to back years unless there's major drop off elsewhere.

He's eyeing the two ND kids and Dixon right now.


Based on? Do you have inside info?
I do think it's unlikely  
pjcas18 : 11/6/2013 6:37 pm : link
the Giants go 1st round OL again, but not because they went OL 1st last year.

the 49ers drafted two OL in the first round in 2010 (Anthony Davis and Iupati) and that's worked out.


Pugh will be fine inside ?? says who ??  
Blue Blood : 11/6/2013 6:46 pm : link
So lets see we fix the OL by getting a LT and the MOVING a guy who plays LT and gets LT money to RT... oh yeah and then we MOVE the guy who is playing well at RT to a position he has NEVER PLAYED BEFORE....

instead of just getting better guards and centers.. yeah that makes lots of sense..
You know what will help Beatty  
Blue Blood : 11/6/2013 6:52 pm : link
having a better guard next to him... period.. an OL is about continuity.. the musical chairs on the OL needs to STOP...

no more of this..

Beatty Boothe Baas Snee Diehl one week..

then

Beatty Brewer Boothe Snee Diehl...

then

Beatty Boothe Baas Snee Pugh...

then

Beatty Boothe Baas Brewer Pugh..

then

Beatty Boothe CORDLE Diehl Pugh..

and im Sure there was a Mosley line up at one time as well..


ENOUGH already... get your OL set and then draft guys who actually fill the holes.. stop trying to get guys who can play every position but play them mediocre..
Hey Blue Blood  
Optimus-NY : 11/6/2013 6:54 pm : link
The coaching staff is apparently comfortable with Pugh playing elsewhere along the O-Line if need be. Besides that, how comfortable are you with Beatty as the answer at OLT, especially if you can upgrade to a potentially elite kind of player instead of one who has warts in his game, such as his lack of push in the running game?
oh yeah  
Blue Blood : 11/6/2013 6:56 pm : link
and if a WR is the best player on the board and his name is Evans or Watkins. especially if its Evans.. TAKE HIM..

Something else to consider...  
Optimus-NY : 11/6/2013 6:59 pm : link
Under Pat Flaherty, O-Linemen get reps at other positions in case the need arises for them to play elsewhere along the line. They don't look down on versatility, they highlight it.

Again, if Beatty can mitigate this then it's all a moot point. IMO, he's the key going forward. Let's see ow he does the rest of this season (no repeats of the game in Carolina would be nice). Pugh might actually be this team's OLT one day with his excellent footwork and balance the way he's progressing.
Optimus  
pjcas18 : 11/6/2013 7:05 pm : link
how do you explain the PFF OL ratings from 2012 I posted above?

A. PFF is garbage
B. They're not garbage, just wrong on Beatty?
C. Maybe having no Bennett (or equivalent) or Bradshaw (or equivalent) is hurting everyone on the OL
D. All of the above
E. None of the above. Fill in the blank _____________
F. I hate multiple choice go F yourself

pjacs - I'd say B and part of C  
Optimus-NY : 11/6/2013 7:14 pm : link
Bradshaw has nothing to do with this. Beatty has never been the most physical presence on the O-Line in the run game, but he does excel in pass blocking. Ideally, I'd love an OLT who can be excel in everything, thereby taking the line to a whole other level, which is why it's awfully hard to ignore a chance to enhance the team's talent at that position.

Beatty's lack of ability in the run game bothers me, period. I'd like to be wrong about that. Like I said before, it's no coincidence that the Giants ran the ball more effectively to the left side in 2011 after running behind Diehl as opposed to Beatty back then. I'm still with Pat Kirwan regarding Beatty. Anish is the only guy here who I take seriously since he actually put in work in the NFL, and he shares the same opinion regarding Beatty.
optimus  
BigBlueCane : 11/6/2013 7:16 pm : link
prior history.

He'll go Free Agency to 'fix' the OL and the draft add depth at the DL or CB. That's what Reese does.
Well I only include Bradshaw  
pjcas18 : 11/6/2013 7:16 pm : link
because my opinion of him was a RB who didn't wait for blocks to materialize. he's not exactly known as the epitome of a patient runner. he made holes where there were none or hit the proper hole hard, but if it wasn't there right away, he was improvising.

So I think of him (Bradshaw) as an O-lineman's friend - especially an OL who isn't a mauler.
RE: Ha-Ha Clinton-Dix  
Anakim : 11/6/2013 7:33 pm : link
In comment 11322392 flapjack said:
Quote:
this is a person's name


It's a nickname. His real name is HaSean
NO to Lewan  
MikeinSeattle : 11/6/2013 8:16 pm : link
I'm a Michigan fan and what a complete overrated piece of garbage this guy is. Please no Jerry.
Trading back is risky, but is also tempting if the opportunity is  
Optimus-NY : 11/6/2013 8:24 pm : link
presented. Teams like the Browns and Rams have extra picks in the first round. If one of them comes to you to move up, you have to listen (assuming the Giants pick ahead of them of course). The Florida State OT, Cameron Erving, is a player that is going to be a pretty good pro too.
With Randle in the fold  
Jim in Forest Hills : 11/6/2013 9:19 pm : link
I wonder if they'd rather take someone like Ebron.
I hope they don't go OT, I think that's a wasted pick  
Jim in Forest Hills : 11/6/2013 9:25 pm : link
with Pugh playing well at ORT. Beatty and Pugh are good enough to win with. This has borne itself out in the past SB winners. Boothe, Snee and Baas though need serious upgrading.
Let Beatty pass block, get a great  
Bill in UT : 11/6/2013 11:58 pm : link
center and right guard and pulling left guard and run to the right.
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