Great Blue North's latest 1st rd. projection

Remotes across the country would be thrown.

happy with either Evans or Watkins. Those two are serious matchup problems and as long as we want to keep Cruz in the slot where he can just eat up every DB that comes his way, we're going to need quality on the outside. Nicks is likely gone, one way or another.

We can win with the tackles we have. The problem is a miserable interior O-line and that can addressed through a high second rounder and some choice FA's.

and would be good for the giants but if there picking a wr in round 1 I hope that means they signed a few good O lineman

perfect sense assuming Nicks is a goner. Notice how Colin left Yankey, Sua-Filo and Jackson available as OGs for 2nd round.

No argument about their talent whatsoever. But while we may be able to win with the tackles we have, can we win with the OC and RG we have? That's my reason for a trade down.

Lewan or Kouandjio would make me a lot more comfortable at LOT than Beatty. Evans looks like he's gonna be a fine player though.=, so I can't criticize the player.

but I think we'll likely have a shot at a serious interior O-line talent in the early 2nd.

but I love Evans. A more talented Vincent Jackson who'd be unreal with Cruz/Randle.

Eli's pocket awareness is terrific, and I think he can play very well with an average LOT. The problem is with pressure up the middle - Eli's not mobile and he's not going to roll out and buy time outside the pocket. With pressure from the outside he can step up.

Pugh's also shown himself capable of being a good RT. He has good feet and he knows how to redirect pressure. Why draft an OT to move Pugh inside where his lack of great strength becomes a liability?

It's as much about what's between the ears as it is the measurables. It's hard to know from watching a few college games whether a player can grasp let alone flourish in the Giants' offense.

should stick with our offense as it currently is?

We're 2-6. Much is still wrong in the garden of Giants. I hope our organization acts accordingly.

with Evans.

this is a person's name

In comment 11322383 Ash said:

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Eli's pocket awareness is terrific, and I think he can play very well with an average LOT. The problem is with pressure up the middle - Eli's not mobile and he's not going to roll out and buy time outside the pocket. With pressure from the outside he can step up. Pugh's also shown himself capable of being a good RT. He has good feet and he knows how to redirect pressure. Why draft an OT to move Pugh inside where his lack of great strength becomes a liability?

Why you ask? So you can better control the LoS, that's why. I would draft the LOT, move Pugh inside (he's versatile), move Beatty to RT (he's played there before) and then sign a young OG coming off of his rookie contract like Asamoah of the Chiefs. Then I'd draft a quality young Center in either the 2nd or 3rd round (either the kid from Arkanasas, Swanson, or the one from Oregon, whose odd name escapes me for the moment). You don't pass up the big uglies of you can get them.

Dude is a beast. Will bring back that fade to a big reciever we used to do with Plax. Hes going to be a Pro Bowl WR in the NFL within his first 4 years. Id take it and sign the highest FA OL we can sign

if that holds true or increases as it gets closer to draft day, I do think the Giants can trade down with one of the QB needy teams and still get Evans, plus a 2nd or 3rd.

If that 5 1st round QB's grows to 6 or 7 a trade down might be a realistic option if it's not already.

by moving Beatty to RT and Pugh inside, I think you end up weakening multiple positions. We'd be better off trying to get a quality guard and center instead. The tackles are OK. They're not great, but they're not the real problem, so far as I see it.

moving Pugh inside could wind up being a huge disaster.. Giants need to stop the musical chairs with the OL.. Pugh has NEVER played inside.. and is doing well outside.. why move him..

In comment 11322388 Ash said:

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should stick with our offense as it currently is? We're 2-6. Much is still wrong in the garden of Giants. I hope our organization acts accordingly.

Not suggesting we should or shouldn't stick with it, but rather that in all likelihood we will.

And trading down can be "cute" unless you really don't like the guys there.

I look at it as strengthening multiple positions. If you like your teams soft, that's fine. I don't. Beatty is not a tone-setter on the O-Line; I think the Giants over-rated him, and paid him more than he's worth. Time to get back to George Young's Planet Theory. Give me an OT.

My thoughts exactly. That is a messed up name.

In comment 11322392 flapjack said:

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this is a person's name

The way you worded that made me ha-ha

Use the money that Nicks wanted to sign OL/LB and draft an OL and a CB in the next two rounds.

and it's rare the Giants trade down, but also rare they draft as highly as currently projected.

I don't think a trade down is a reality unless it's a team who is looking for a QB. Teams are more willing to overpay for a QB - look at the Sanchez and RG3 trade-ups.

The skins went from 6 to 2, and swapped picks that year (obviously) and traded two future 1sts and a 2nd.

all that to move up 4 spots. If the Giants can move down 4 spots and collect two additional firsts and a 2nd you don't even have to not like the guys where you're picking, but simply like someone 4 spots lower.

1) Sign a free agent center to a 2-3 year contract (They don't like to trust the OL protection calls to a rookie, and they need immediate help at C.)

2) Sign a free agent guard

3) Draft a guard in the 2nd round

4) Draft a center in the 3rd or 4th round

So I think they'll address their interior line issues through both free agency and in the draft, but not in the first round. In which case, you go BPA with that early pick. If you can get a stud WR to Nicks, who presumably will be gone, you do it.

I don't like my teams soft. I also think your approach is misguided in trying to solve that problem. Getting some big nasties on the inside is the most cost-effective way to solve our problems. Pugh on the inside won't be a big nasty, he'll be a technician who'll have trouble with fat dudes on the other side. At RT, he's a benefit. Beatty, who's not a big nasty, is OK at LT, where he can pass block adequately and you don't necessarily need someone with a nasty streak to run well. It's inside, where a diminished Baas and a done Snee have compromised us, in addition to a decidedly mediocre Boothe.

always believe that you go best available player regardless of position. The only exception would be if you end up with a high enough pick to get a franchise QB and you already have one, then trade down and select the BAP.

The O-Line should be a point of emphasis. Merely settling for good play, instead of excellent play there is not what I'd like to see happen, especially when the opportunity is there to improve it significantly.

Pugh will be fine inside if they moved him. Seubert wasn't a huge inside. He was a nasty technician who knew how to play and move. Pugh would do fine inside. Beatty is not someone I'm comfortable with. Fact is this: the Giants overestimated his ability and overpaid him as a result (call up or tweet Pat Kirwan and he'll emphasize that).

The coupe de grace here is getting a "blue goose" OLT--as Reese refers to elite OTs--that can do what Beatty can't: be a force in the running game, and create a new line of scrimmage. Anyone who gives me this nonsense about "why move Pugh inside?" is not making any sense. Bill Parcells moved Jumbo Elliot from RT to LT when the Giants drafted him in 1988 out of Michigan. Tuna also moved William Roberts from OT to OG years after the Giants drafted him as a Tackle, and then big Will made the Pro Bowl as a Guard. Give me a tackle in the first, and a Center in the 2nd or 3rd, and an OG in FA.

Not really debatable, imv. The rationale of weakening positions by moving players around is certainly valid too, but in a vacuum it's certainly a wise pick if it's left tackle and let them settle it out in camp.

The problem is Beatty's contract, and I'd agree Pugh is best utilized right where he is at RT, and he's clearly a TC favorite.

Given the above, NYG can choose to say "we're set at tackle" and look at other positions and WR could be in the mix, as NYG's premium positions are DE, WR, LT, CB.

That said, this projection is six months early and much figures to change.

rookie Wr will be out third receiver.Use that pick on the OL or LB where you desperately need help. There are good choices there at positions of need.If you really can't decide take Manziel.

on your part, Optimus. Both of our viewpoints are reasonable, and I suggest you don't talk down to me.

Settling for "good play" as opposed to "great" is not a philosophical point about the "importance of O-line play". It's a concession to the salary cap and how spread scarce resources and how you win a league with ever more emphasis on the passing game.

Pugh is small for a tackle, but he certainly lacks the typical squat stature, physical strength and skillset you want from your interior OL.

It's not to say Pugh can't play inside, but rather he's best utilized at RT, and you're potentially wasting him attempting to square peg round hole him.

You don't use a 1st round pick on a mediocre guard. He's a tackle and the Giants have made it abundantly clear that he's a tackle.

Evans makes a ton of sense because the Giants aren't going to grab a guard or center that high, although Richardson would have to be a consideration. If they can't keep Nicks, they'll need him.

is the only problem with this team, then you're blind. It might be the biggest problem with this team, but that doesn't commit us to using our first round pick to addressing it if we could solve the problem differently.

OLT - Lewan or Kouandjio drafted in the first round
C - vet for a year until Swanson is ready (2nd or 3rd round pick at Center), unless
Guards - Sign Jon Asamoah from KC and move Pugh inside.
RT - Beatty (live with him).

It does happen to be the biggest though. Time to fix it. Linebacker is another bugaboo of mine, but I'll let that one pass for now.

a OL player in the first round. If not, then it depends who else is a balance of BPA and need. WR is fine especially if Nicks is a goner, like I am expecting.

sign Asamoah and a serviceable center, and draft a defensive playmaker or Evans/Watkins and see how that works.

There are many ways to skin a cat.

So that's where I'd like to see them go in this draft.I recently started looking at the draft more closely and there is definitely some players out there.

it's very early.

Here are a couple names from November 2012 mock drafts:

#2 overall Matt Barkley (4th round)
#12 Sam Montgomery (3rd round - out of football)
#13 Jonathan Hankins (2nd round)
#21 Damontre Moore (3rd round)

I haven't seen Justin Pugh mocked (this early) any higher than 4th or 5th round (I didn't search a ton, but in any case point remains) a lot will change (obviously?)



Early Mock Draft - ( New Window )

had. That's another reason I'd go for a Tackle in the first. Pugh has sweet feet, no doubt about that, but his versatility is an asset the team can use. The guy that pisses me off is Beatty. Ideally, I'd keep Pugh at RT. Hell, he might even be a decent candidate to play OLT on this team in the not-so-distant future.

"experts" have been saying Pugh is doing fine at tackle, in fact better than fine for a rookie - especially compared with his fellow draftee OT's.

Why are people suggesting to move him?

In comment 11322485 Ash said:

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sign Asamoah and a serviceable center, and draft a defensive playmaker or Evans/Watkins and see how that works. There are many ways to skin a cat.

That's too much money committed to the O-Line IMO. Gotta get some high draft picks in there. The Giants are paying the price for not drafting well in the middle rounds at O-Line (Brewer and Mosley).

that situation, I'd go for current fan fav Mack, and hope for Gabe Jackson in the second. Mack might well be available, assuming we pick in the top ten, but I'm not sure Jackson would last until the second. We also need a CB. I know ChicagoMarty beats that drum every year, but this year he's right. Ross and Webster most likely won't return.

Pugh also isn't moving to guard.

Assuming Nicks is gone, you resign Joseph and Patterson, and get a high quality FA guard. But then we still need a center, so that might take another FA signing, although I think I read that Herman and Goodin are working at center. In any event, we have to hope that at least two of Herman, Goodin, Mosley, and Brewer can be decent backups or starters. Diehl, Snee, Cordle, and most likely Boothe are gone.

In comment 11322406 Blue Blood said:

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moving Pugh inside could wind up being a huge disaster.. Giants need to stop the musical chairs with the OL.. Pugh has NEVER played inside.. and is doing well outside.. why move him..

Blueblood, agree......we need to stop screwing around with projects and potential on the oline... let's get some linemen in here that we know can do the job inside. As I've said before, we need snot-knockers inside. Guys that can push the DLine back the other way. Let's finally invest what we must to solidify the interior once and for all. Stop with the thoughts of putting Pugh inside. There's no guarantee he would excel inside and quite frankly has been getting better on the outside. Giants see him as a RT. If we are to improve the interior, we can't screw around with two more positions on the outside. There's already going to be too much turmoil on theline anyway.

is there in the first, I'd take him despite Beatty. Ideally, you don't want to start a rookie at LT if you can avoid it which would give the Giants one more year to amortize his bonus. This would give you three guys on the roster that could play LT.

Also, I expect the Giants to keep Baas another year if they can find a center in the draft. This assumes that a center isn't available in free agency at the right price. Jim Cordle continuing to improve through the rest of the season would make it easier for them to bet on the draft.

The wildcard is their views on Brewer/Mosely. I'll be surprised if one of them isn't starting next year.

I don't. The Giants have made their bed with him to a degree until after 2015 or maybe 2014, so they'll have to sleep in it. No disagreement there (see his salary cap page below). I hope I'm wrong about him, but I think he'll wind up being an albatross around their necks.

Will Beatty's salary cap page courtesy of overthecap.com - ( New Window )

It's an opinion. And so is Kirwan's.

Quote:

Fact is this: the Giants overestimated his ability and overpaid him as a result (call up or tweet Pat Kirwan and he'll emphasize that).

1 year ago nobody wanted to lose the guy. 4 NFL weeks into this season and suddenly he lacks ability rather than just had a couple of bad games.

This is poor analysis.

I'm pretty sure the Giants have to keep Baas another year.

It just doesn't make cap sense to cut him.

I defer to Optimus on the particulars, but think it's not really open for discussion.

based on over the cap, it looks like to save 1.7 on the cap by cutting Baas you'd have almost 6.5M in dead cap space.

Even the following year he still has a good chunk of dead money, I guess the cost of restructuring.

the resolution of their OL issues up to the vagaries of the draft. You never put yourself in a hole where you must get someone at a particular position via the draft. The Giants will make FA moves, and though that won't be a cure-all, it will be enough to change this whole discussion.

If anything is obvious from this season, it's that the Giants have neglected the trenches for too long. This is a draft that screams to trade down from #7. I count 4 OLs, 4 LBs and 5 DLs going after that pick. A WR would be a foolish pick there. Trade down and add quality reinforcements to the lines or LB.

they can likely get Travis Swanson with their 3rd rd. pick and let him pick up the system for a year.

don't see the Giants keeping Baas. I think he's a June 1 cut, as Optimus has suggested. That allows the Giants to spread the cap hit over two years.

That's just for the record. I trust Kirwan's opinion over BBI's. That's just me.

is healthy, I doubt the Giants cut him. If he's not I guess there's a chance.

That wasn't cool. I let my frustration with Beatty get the best of me and misdirected it at you. Foolish thing to do, especially on a sports message board. It won't happen again.

Problem is what to do for a stop gap for a year at Center. Sign Boothe as a stop-gap, or maybe the guy on the Steelers subbing for Pouncey? That'll be the trick. Swanson is a primo Center prospect though, probably the best in this year's draft.

in the second round, we'd be very lucky. I think by the time the draft rolls around, people will be talking about him as a first round pick.

Neither have I. I am hoping we go OT and have that rookie battle it out. A WR or Barr would be great too, especially if Nicks leaves, which I think will happen.

He seems to be perfect for how Eli throws the ball. He's a big receiver who wins those jump balls, and has gotten really good at hauling in back shoulder throws.

..

The Giants would be getting an "A level" talent if they did draft him to replace Nicks, that's for sure.

In comment 11322535 Optimus-NY said:

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That's just for the record. I trust Kirwan's opinion over BBI's. That's just me.

You are 100% entitled to your opinion.

I listen to Kirwan's opinion on many things, but he's hardly an infallible judge by any stretch. He was a scout for 4 years and a capologist and contracts man. None of that tells me Jerry Reese has a lot to learn from him.

The reason my opinion is what it is regarding Beatty is not solely because of him though. I don't think it was a coincidence that the Giants were better running the ball in 2011 after Diehl took over duties at OLT after Beatty got hurt for the year. I question his strength in the run game, especially from the lower body (his legs). Kirwan's assessment made sense to me in this regard. I hope I'm wrong though, believe me.

In comment 11322512 Simms11 said:

Quote:

In comment 11322406 Blue Blood said: Quote: moving Pugh inside could wind up being a huge disaster.. Giants need to stop the musical chairs with the OL.. Pugh has NEVER played inside.. and is doing well outside.. why move him.. Blueblood, agree......we need to stop screwing around with projects and potential on the oline... let's get some linemen in here that we know can do the job inside. As I've said before, we need snot-knockers inside. Guys that can push the DLine back the other way. Let's finally invest what we must to solidify the interior once and for all. Stop with the thoughts of putting Pugh inside. There's no guarantee he would excel inside and quite frankly has been getting better on the outside. Giants see him as a RT. If we are to improve the interior, we can't screw around with two more positions on the outside. There's already going to be too much turmoil on theline anyway.

I'm looking forward to the day when moving Pugh to guard goes away like the short arm BS. He's a fine tackle, grading out better than any of the other OT's in the 2013 draft. DEAL WITH IT PEOPLE!

taking Evans would be ridiculous. I like Evans a lot, but he's not Larry Fitzgerald or AJ Green... a high-end talent that just can't be passed up regardless of the holes on a team. I'd either take Lewan in that spot or trade down with an eye on Mosley.

and weaker in run blocking.

But if we're giving credit to Diehl for helping improve the running in 2011, it's important to note that in 2011, the Giants rushed for 1427 yards on 411 carries. 3.5 average.

In 2012, the Giants rushed for 1862 yards on 408 carries, 4.6 average with Diehl only starting 10 games and Beatty starting 15, and David Wilson a nonfactor.

but from what I've seen of him, that's exactly what Evans is (so I disagree):

Quote:

but he's not Larry Fitzgerald or AJ Green... a high-end talent that just can't be passed up regardless of the holes

for the front office to remain aware of the possibility that Beatty can improve turn in a better 2014 season. But it's another thing altogether to consider it a probability, and I think it's been that kind of thinking that has laid the poor foundation for this current OL. Snee, Bass, and Diehl have all been counted on to return to some past form, and I hope the Giants don't count on Beatty improving with the same certainty they seem to had towards the other three.

It's just that those guys (and Megatron, obviously) are players that MUST be drafted even if you have 100% healthy Nicks and Cruz because they're simply that good. Evans, while better, is closer to Michael Floyd than AJ Green. JMO.

But there's no guarantee that will be a good option. If this draft class is as deep as many project it to be, you might not find too many willing trade partners and might have to settle upon one whose return picks aren't a better asset than the Giants' ultimate pick.

is the PFF ratings....

I know they're polarizing (to be polite), but FWIW the other highly rated tackles are not really debated about if they're good or not.

Beatty was rated 2nd best NFC LT for 2012 and had a very good run block rating.

I wonder if not having Martellus Bennett and/or Ahmad Bradshaw has an impact on the run game as much as Beatty and the o-line.

also FWIW Beatty was well regarded by PFF in 2011 as well. Not quite as high, but higher than Diehl (in his 10 games).

back to back years unless there's major drop off elsewhere.

He's eyeing the two ND kids and Dixon right now.

In comment 11322973 BigBlueCane said:

Quote:

back to back years unless there's major drop off elsewhere. He's eyeing the two ND kids and Dixon right now.

Based on? Do you have inside info?

the Giants go 1st round OL again, but not because they went OL 1st last year.

the 49ers drafted two OL in the first round in 2010 (Anthony Davis and Iupati) and that's worked out.

So lets see we fix the OL by getting a LT and the MOVING a guy who plays LT and gets LT money to RT... oh yeah and then we MOVE the guy who is playing well at RT to a position he has NEVER PLAYED BEFORE....

instead of just getting better guards and centers.. yeah that makes lots of sense..

having a better guard next to him... period.. an OL is about continuity.. the musical chairs on the OL needs to STOP...

no more of this..

Beatty Boothe Baas Snee Diehl one week..

then

Beatty Brewer Boothe Snee Diehl...

then

Beatty Boothe Baas Snee Pugh...

then

Beatty Boothe Baas Brewer Pugh..

then

Beatty Boothe CORDLE Diehl Pugh..

and im Sure there was a Mosley line up at one time as well..


ENOUGH already... get your OL set and then draft guys who actually fill the holes.. stop trying to get guys who can play every position but play them mediocre..

The coaching staff is apparently comfortable with Pugh playing elsewhere along the O-Line if need be. Besides that, how comfortable are you with Beatty as the answer at OLT, especially if you can upgrade to a potentially elite kind of player instead of one who has warts in his game, such as his lack of push in the running game?

and if a WR is the best player on the board and his name is Evans or Watkins. especially if its Evans.. TAKE HIM..

Under Pat Flaherty, O-Linemen get reps at other positions in case the need arises for them to play elsewhere along the line. They don't look down on versatility, they highlight it.

Again, if Beatty can mitigate this then it's all a moot point. IMO, he's the key going forward. Let's see ow he does the rest of this season (no repeats of the game in Carolina would be nice). Pugh might actually be this team's OLT one day with his excellent footwork and balance the way he's progressing.

how do you explain the PFF OL ratings from 2012 I posted above?

A. PFF is garbage
B. They're not garbage, just wrong on Beatty?
C. Maybe having no Bennett (or equivalent) or Bradshaw (or equivalent) is hurting everyone on the OL
D. All of the above
E. None of the above. Fill in the blank _____________
F. I hate multiple choice go F yourself

Bradshaw has nothing to do with this. Beatty has never been the most physical presence on the O-Line in the run game, but he does excel in pass blocking. Ideally, I'd love an OLT who can be excel in everything, thereby taking the line to a whole other level, which is why it's awfully hard to ignore a chance to enhance the team's talent at that position.

Beatty's lack of ability in the run game bothers me, period. I'd like to be wrong about that. Like I said before, it's no coincidence that the Giants ran the ball more effectively to the left side in 2011 after running behind Diehl as opposed to Beatty back then. I'm still with Pat Kirwan regarding Beatty. Anish is the only guy here who I take seriously since he actually put in work in the NFL, and he shares the same opinion regarding Beatty.

prior history.

He'll go Free Agency to 'fix' the OL and the draft add depth at the DL or CB. That's what Reese does.

because my opinion of him was a RB who didn't wait for blocks to materialize. he's not exactly known as the epitome of a patient runner. he made holes where there were none or hit the proper hole hard, but if it wasn't there right away, he was improvising.

So I think of him (Bradshaw) as an O-lineman's friend - especially an OL who isn't a mauler.

In comment 11322392 flapjack said:

Quote:

this is a person's name

It's a nickname. His real name is HaSean

I'm a Michigan fan and what a complete overrated piece of garbage this guy is. Please no Jerry.

presented. Teams like the Browns and Rams have extra picks in the first round. If one of them comes to you to move up, you have to listen (assuming the Giants pick ahead of them of course). The Florida State OT, Cameron Erving, is a player that is going to be a pretty good pro too.

I wonder if they'd rather take someone like Ebron.

with Pugh playing well at ORT. Beatty and Pugh are good enough to win with. This has borne itself out in the past SB winners. Boothe, Snee and Baas though need serious upgrading.

center and right guard and pulling left guard and run to the right.