happy with either Evans or Watkins. Those two are serious matchup problems and as long as we want to keep Cruz in the slot where he can just eat up every DB that comes his way, we're going to need quality on the outside. Nicks is likely gone, one way or another.
We can win with the tackles we have. The problem is a miserable interior O-line and that can addressed through a high second rounder and some choice FA's.
No argument about their talent whatsoever. But while we may be able to win with the tackles we have, can we win with the OC and RG we have? That's my reason for a trade down.
I can't pass on the OTs available there in this mock.
Lewan or Kouandjio would make me a lot more comfortable at LOT than Beatty. Evans looks like he's gonna be a fine player though.=, so I can't criticize the player.
Eli's pocket awareness is terrific, and I think he can play very well with an average LOT. The problem is with pressure up the middle - Eli's not mobile and he's not going to roll out and buy time outside the pocket. With pressure from the outside he can step up.
Pugh's also shown himself capable of being a good RT. He has good feet and he knows how to redirect pressure. Why draft an OT to move Pugh inside where his lack of great strength becomes a liability?
It's as much about what's between the ears as it is the measurables. It's hard to know from watching a few college games whether a player can grasp let alone flourish in the Giants' offense.
Eli's pocket awareness is terrific, and I think he can play very well with an average LOT. The problem is with pressure up the middle - Eli's not mobile and he's not going to roll out and buy time outside the pocket. With pressure from the outside he can step up.
Pugh's also shown himself capable of being a good RT. He has good feet and he knows how to redirect pressure. Why draft an OT to move Pugh inside where his lack of great strength becomes a liability?
Why you ask? So you can better control the LoS, that's why. I would draft the LOT, move Pugh inside (he's versatile), move Beatty to RT (he's played there before) and then sign a young OG coming off of his rookie contract like Asamoah of the Chiefs. Then I'd draft a quality young Center in either the 2nd or 3rd round (either the kid from Arkanasas, Swanson, or the one from Oregon, whose odd name escapes me for the moment). You don't pass up the big uglies of you can get them.
Dude is a beast. Will bring back that fade to a big reciever we used to do with Plax. Hes going to be a Pro Bowl WR in the NFL within his first 4 years. Id take it and sign the highest FA OL we can sign
if that holds true or increases as it gets closer to draft day, I do think the Giants can trade down with one of the QB needy teams and still get Evans, plus a 2nd or 3rd.
If that 5 1st round QB's grows to 6 or 7 a trade down might be a realistic option if it's not already.
by moving Beatty to RT and Pugh inside, I think you end up weakening multiple positions. We'd be better off trying to get a quality guard and center instead. The tackles are OK. They're not great, but they're not the real problem, so far as I see it.
moving Pugh inside could wind up being a huge disaster.. Giants need to stop the musical chairs with the OL.. Pugh has NEVER played inside.. and is doing well outside.. why move him..
I look at it as strengthening multiple positions. If you like your teams soft, that's fine. I don't. Beatty is not a tone-setter on the O-Line; I think the Giants over-rated him, and paid him more than he's worth. Time to get back to George Young's Planet Theory. Give me an OT.
and it's rare the Giants trade down, but also rare they draft as highly as currently projected.
I don't think a trade down is a reality unless it's a team who is looking for a QB. Teams are more willing to overpay for a QB - look at the Sanchez and RG3 trade-ups.
The skins went from 6 to 2, and swapped picks that year (obviously) and traded two future 1sts and a 2nd.
all that to move up 4 spots. If the Giants can move down 4 spots and collect two additional firsts and a 2nd you don't even have to not like the guys where you're picking, but simply like someone 4 spots lower.
1) Sign a free agent center to a 2-3 year contract (They don't like to trust the OL protection calls to a rookie, and they need immediate help at C.)
2) Sign a free agent guard
3) Draft a guard in the 2nd round
4) Draft a center in the 3rd or 4th round
So I think they'll address their interior line issues through both free agency and in the draft, but not in the first round. In which case, you go BPA with that early pick. If you can get a stud WR to Nicks, who presumably will be gone, you do it.
I don't like my teams soft. I also think your approach is misguided in trying to solve that problem. Getting some big nasties on the inside is the most cost-effective way to solve our problems. Pugh on the inside won't be a big nasty, he'll be a technician who'll have trouble with fat dudes on the other side. At RT, he's a benefit. Beatty, who's not a big nasty, is OK at LT, where he can pass block adequately and you don't necessarily need someone with a nasty streak to run well. It's inside, where a diminished Baas and a done Snee have compromised us, in addition to a decidedly mediocre Boothe.
I don't follow college enough to have a serious pick, but I
always believe that you go best available player regardless of position. The only exception would be if you end up with a high enough pick to get a franchise QB and you already have one, then trade down and select the BAP.
The O-Line should be a point of emphasis. Merely settling for good play, instead of excellent play there is not what I'd like to see happen, especially when the opportunity is there to improve it significantly.
Pugh will be fine inside if they moved him. Seubert wasn't a huge inside. He was a nasty technician who knew how to play and move. Pugh would do fine inside. Beatty is not someone I'm comfortable with. Fact is this: the Giants overestimated his ability and overpaid him as a result (call up or tweet Pat Kirwan and he'll emphasize that).
The coupe de grace here is getting a "blue goose" OLT--as Reese refers to elite OTs--that can do what Beatty can't: be a force in the running game, and create a new line of scrimmage. Anyone who gives me this nonsense about "why move Pugh inside?" is not making any sense. Bill Parcells moved Jumbo Elliot from RT to LT when the Giants drafted him in 1988 out of Michigan. Tuna also moved William Roberts from OT to OG years after the Giants drafted him as a Tackle, and then big Will made the Pro Bowl as a Guard. Give me a tackle in the first, and a Center in the 2nd or 3rd, and an OG in FA.
Not really debatable, imv. The rationale of weakening positions by moving players around is certainly valid too, but in a vacuum it's certainly a wise pick if it's left tackle and let them settle it out in camp.
The problem is Beatty's contract, and I'd agree Pugh is best utilized right where he is at RT, and he's clearly a TC favorite.
Given the above, NYG can choose to say "we're set at tackle" and look at other positions and WR could be in the mix, as NYG's premium positions are DE, WR, LT, CB.
That said, this projection is six months early and much figures to change.
rookie Wr will be out third receiver.Use that pick on the OL or LB where you desperately need help. There are good choices there at positions of need.If you really can't decide take Manziel.
on your part, Optimus. Both of our viewpoints are reasonable, and I suggest you don't talk down to me.
Settling for "good play" as opposed to "great" is not a philosophical point about the "importance of O-line play". It's a concession to the salary cap and how spread scarce resources and how you win a league with ever more emphasis on the passing game.
Pugh is small for a tackle, but he certainly lacks the typical squat stature, physical strength and skillset you want from your interior OL.
It's not to say Pugh can't play inside, but rather he's best utilized at RT, and you're potentially wasting him attempting to square peg round hole him.
You don't use a 1st round pick on a mediocre guard. He's a tackle and the Giants have made it abundantly clear that he's a tackle.
Evans makes a ton of sense because the Giants aren't going to grab a guard or center that high, although Richardson would have to be a consideration. If they can't keep Nicks, they'll need him.
is the only problem with this team, then you're blind. It might be the biggest problem with this team, but that doesn't commit us to using our first round pick to addressing it if we could solve the problem differently.
OLT - Lewan or Kouandjio drafted in the first round
C - vet for a year until Swanson is ready (2nd or 3rd round pick at Center), unless
Guards - Sign Jon Asamoah from KC and move Pugh inside.
RT - Beatty (live with him).
Ash - Who said the O-Line was the only problem with this team?
a OL player in the first round. If not, then it depends who else is a balance of BPA and need. WR is fine especially if Nicks is a goner, like I am expecting.
Or we could try and grab Gabe Jackson in the second,
So that's where I'd like to see them go in this draft.I recently started looking at the draft more closely and there is definitely some players out there.
Here are a couple names from November 2012 mock drafts:
#2 overall Matt Barkley (4th round)
#12 Sam Montgomery (3rd round - out of football)
#13 Jonathan Hankins (2nd round)
#21 Damontre Moore (3rd round)
I haven't seen Justin Pugh mocked (this early) any higher than 4th or 5th round (I didn't search a ton, but in any case point remains) a lot will change (obviously?)
had. That's another reason I'd go for a Tackle in the first. Pugh has sweet feet, no doubt about that, but his versatility is an asset the team can use. The guy that pisses me off is Beatty. Ideally, I'd keep Pugh at RT. Hell, he might even be a decent candidate to play OLT on this team in the not-so-distant future.
sign Asamoah and a serviceable center, and draft a defensive playmaker or Evans/Watkins and see how that works.
There are many ways to skin a cat.
That's too much money committed to the O-Line IMO. Gotta get some high draft picks in there. The Giants are paying the price for not drafting well in the middle rounds at O-Line (Brewer and Mosley).
that situation, I'd go for current fan fav Mack, and hope for Gabe Jackson in the second. Mack might well be available, assuming we pick in the top ten, but I'm not sure Jackson would last until the second. We also need a CB. I know ChicagoMarty beats that drum every year, but this year he's right. Ross and Webster most likely won't return.
Pugh also isn't moving to guard.
Assuming Nicks is gone, you resign Joseph and Patterson, and get a high quality FA guard. But then we still need a center, so that might take another FA signing, although I think I read that Herman and Goodin are working at center. In any event, we have to hope that at least two of Herman, Goodin, Mosley, and Brewer can be decent backups or starters. Diehl, Snee, Cordle, and most likely Boothe are gone.
moving Pugh inside could wind up being a huge disaster.. Giants need to stop the musical chairs with the OL.. Pugh has NEVER played inside.. and is doing well outside.. why move him..
Blueblood, agree......we need to stop screwing around with projects and potential on the oline... let's get some linemen in here that we know can do the job inside. As I've said before, we need snot-knockers inside. Guys that can push the DLine back the other way. Let's finally invest what we must to solidify the interior once and for all. Stop with the thoughts of putting Pugh inside. There's no guarantee he would excel inside and quite frankly has been getting better on the outside. Giants see him as a RT. If we are to improve the interior, we can't screw around with two more positions on the outside. There's already going to be too much turmoil on theline anyway.
is there in the first, I'd take him despite Beatty. Ideally, you don't want to start a rookie at LT if you can avoid it which would give the Giants one more year to amortize his bonus. This would give you three guys on the roster that could play LT.
Also, I expect the Giants to keep Baas another year if they can find a center in the draft. This assumes that a center isn't available in free agency at the right price. Jim Cordle continuing to improve through the rest of the season would make it easier for them to bet on the draft.
The wildcard is their views on Brewer/Mosely. I'll be surprised if one of them isn't starting next year.
I don't. The Giants have made their bed with him to a degree until after 2015 or maybe 2014, so they'll have to sleep in it. No disagreement there (see his salary cap page below). I hope I'm wrong about him, but I think he'll wind up being an albatross around their necks.
We can win with the tackles we have. The problem is a miserable interior O-line and that can addressed through a high second rounder and some choice FA's.
Pugh's also shown himself capable of being a good RT. He has good feet and he knows how to redirect pressure. Why draft an OT to move Pugh inside where his lack of great strength becomes a liability?
We're 2-6. Much is still wrong in the garden of Giants. I hope our organization acts accordingly.
Pugh's also shown himself capable of being a good RT. He has good feet and he knows how to redirect pressure. Why draft an OT to move Pugh inside where his lack of great strength becomes a liability?
Why you ask? So you can better control the LoS, that's why. I would draft the LOT, move Pugh inside (he's versatile), move Beatty to RT (he's played there before) and then sign a young OG coming off of his rookie contract like Asamoah of the Chiefs. Then I'd draft a quality young Center in either the 2nd or 3rd round (either the kid from Arkanasas, Swanson, or the one from Oregon, whose odd name escapes me for the moment). You don't pass up the big uglies of you can get them.
If that 5 1st round QB's grows to 6 or 7 a trade down might be a realistic option if it's not already.
We're 2-6. Much is still wrong in the garden of Giants. I hope our organization acts accordingly.
Not suggesting we should or shouldn't stick with it, but rather that in all likelihood we will.
The way you worded that made me ha-ha
I don't think a trade down is a reality unless it's a team who is looking for a QB. Teams are more willing to overpay for a QB - look at the Sanchez and RG3 trade-ups.
The skins went from 6 to 2, and swapped picks that year (obviously) and traded two future 1sts and a 2nd.
all that to move up 4 spots. If the Giants can move down 4 spots and collect two additional firsts and a 2nd you don't even have to not like the guys where you're picking, but simply like someone 4 spots lower.
2) Sign a free agent guard
3) Draft a guard in the 2nd round
4) Draft a center in the 3rd or 4th round
So I think they'll address their interior line issues through both free agency and in the draft, but not in the first round. In which case, you go BPA with that early pick. If you can get a stud WR to Nicks, who presumably will be gone, you do it.
Pugh will be fine inside if they moved him. Seubert wasn't a huge inside. He was a nasty technician who knew how to play and move. Pugh would do fine inside. Beatty is not someone I'm comfortable with. Fact is this: the Giants overestimated his ability and overpaid him as a result (call up or tweet Pat Kirwan and he'll emphasize that).
The coupe de grace here is getting a "blue goose" OLT--as Reese refers to elite OTs--that can do what Beatty can't: be a force in the running game, and create a new line of scrimmage. Anyone who gives me this nonsense about "why move Pugh inside?" is not making any sense. Bill Parcells moved Jumbo Elliot from RT to LT when the Giants drafted him in 1988 out of Michigan. Tuna also moved William Roberts from OT to OG years after the Giants drafted him as a Tackle, and then big Will made the Pro Bowl as a Guard. Give me a tackle in the first, and a Center in the 2nd or 3rd, and an OG in FA.
The problem is Beatty's contract, and I'd agree Pugh is best utilized right where he is at RT, and he's clearly a TC favorite.
Given the above, NYG can choose to say "we're set at tackle" and look at other positions and WR could be in the mix, as NYG's premium positions are DE, WR, LT, CB.
That said, this projection is six months early and much figures to change.
Settling for "good play" as opposed to "great" is not a philosophical point about the "importance of O-line play". It's a concession to the salary cap and how spread scarce resources and how you win a league with ever more emphasis on the passing game.
It's not to say Pugh can't play inside, but rather he's best utilized at RT, and you're potentially wasting him attempting to square peg round hole him.
Evans makes a ton of sense because the Giants aren't going to grab a guard or center that high, although Richardson would have to be a consideration. If they can't keep Nicks, they'll need him.
C - vet for a year until Swanson is ready (2nd or 3rd round pick at Center), unless
Guards - Sign Jon Asamoah from KC and move Pugh inside.
RT - Beatty (live with him).
There are many ways to skin a cat.
Here are a couple names from November 2012 mock drafts:
#2 overall Matt Barkley (4th round)
#12 Sam Montgomery (3rd round - out of football)
#13 Jonathan Hankins (2nd round)
#21 Damontre Moore (3rd round)
I haven't seen Justin Pugh mocked (this early) any higher than 4th or 5th round (I didn't search a ton, but in any case point remains) a lot will change (obviously?)
Early Mock Draft - ( New Window )
Why are people suggesting to move him?
There are many ways to skin a cat.
That's too much money committed to the O-Line IMO. Gotta get some high draft picks in there. The Giants are paying the price for not drafting well in the middle rounds at O-Line (Brewer and Mosley).
Pugh also isn't moving to guard.
Assuming Nicks is gone, you resign Joseph and Patterson, and get a high quality FA guard. But then we still need a center, so that might take another FA signing, although I think I read that Herman and Goodin are working at center. In any event, we have to hope that at least two of Herman, Goodin, Mosley, and Brewer can be decent backups or starters. Diehl, Snee, Cordle, and most likely Boothe are gone.
Blueblood, agree......we need to stop screwing around with projects and potential on the oline... let's get some linemen in here that we know can do the job inside. As I've said before, we need snot-knockers inside. Guys that can push the DLine back the other way. Let's finally invest what we must to solidify the interior once and for all. Stop with the thoughts of putting Pugh inside. There's no guarantee he would excel inside and quite frankly has been getting better on the outside. Giants see him as a RT. If we are to improve the interior, we can't screw around with two more positions on the outside. There's already going to be too much turmoil on theline anyway.
Also, I expect the Giants to keep Baas another year if they can find a center in the draft. This assumes that a center isn't available in free agency at the right price. Jim Cordle continuing to improve through the rest of the season would make it easier for them to bet on the draft.
The wildcard is their views on Brewer/Mosely. I'll be surprised if one of them isn't starting next year.
Will Beatty's salary cap page courtesy of overthecap.com - ( New Window )
1 year ago nobody wanted to lose the guy. 4 NFL weeks into this season and suddenly he lacks ability rather than just had a couple of bad games.
This is poor analysis.
It just doesn't make cap sense to cut him.
I defer to Optimus on the particulars, but think it's not really open for discussion.
based on over the cap, it looks like to save 1.7 on the cap by cutting Baas you'd have almost 6.5M in dead cap space.
Even the following year he still has a good chunk of dead money, I guess the cost of restructuring.