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Giants defense and pts. allowed skewed to what degree?

JoefromPa : 11/15/2013 11:19 am
With the recent good play of the Giants defense, including the 2cnd half against Cutler and the Bears, you continue to hear about the amount of pts this defense gives up per game

Considering that I know of at least 42 pts that were the results of pick 6 and kick returns I understand that ppg against the defense is skewed,

I don't have access to any sites, but I wonder how many other points, especially fieldgoals that have been set up by turnovers.

Last week was a prime example of pts against being skewed. In essence the Defense was responsible for 3 of the 20 pts scored by the Raiders. You want to say the Giants defense should have held them to a fieldgoal on the first possession, ok then it is 7.

But I know there have been many points scored against the Giants this year that was not the fault of the defense and some that were scored against the defense where they were put in some pretty tough situations.

Just curious what the actual number of points that could be pin on this defense actually is.
Besides the panthers game  
GMANinDC : 11/15/2013 11:32 am : link
The defense has been holding it's own all season. The offense has been putting them in bad field position and had a lot of turnovers..
defense has been good all season  
giantfanboy : 11/15/2013 11:37 am : link
great the last few weeks

i keep on repeating myself but if you look at the time of possession the first 6 games it was heavily skewed away from giants

so you had situation where the games were pretty close but offense was anemic so the defense was on the field the whole game . then when the 4th quarter roles around the defense was exhausted and collasped.

the last 3 weeks even though the offense has not been lighting up the score board they have been winning time of possession . and the turnover battle .. usually there is at least one sustained long drive and this is helping the defense

.  
arcarsenal : 11/15/2013 11:39 am : link
I haven't been able to find points allowed by defenses that omit points that were scored against teams without their defenses on the field (pick 6's, fumble return TD's, punt/kick return TD's).. but I'd be willing to bet that the Giants are probably above average in actual points allowed by the defense. They're 11th in yards allowed right now which is a massive improvement from 31st last year.
Game by Game  
rsjem1979 : 11/15/2013 11:46 am : link
1 - @ Dallas: Cowboys 1st FG came after the INT on the season's first play plus two defensive TDs. Defense allowed 19 points.

2 - vs Denver: Broncos had a punt return TD plus a 36 yard TD drive after an Eli INT. Defense allowed 31 points (though I'd argue they played quite well while the offense kicked FGs all 1st half.

3 - @ Carolina: A complete disaster. 38 points

4 - @ Kansas City: Punt return TD, KC FG that became a TD after a dumbass penalty on the kick, then a 35-yd TD drive after an Eli Fumble when the game was out of reach. I've got the defense for 13 points.

5 - vs PHI: Eagles had TD drives of 25 and 38 yards after Giants turnovers. Give the defense 22 points.

6 - @CHI: Bears had a pick six. Giants defense allows 20.

7 - vs MIN: Vikings only TD came on a punt return. Defense allows 0.

8 - vs PHI: Eagles only TD came on a horrible punt snap. Defense allows 0.

9 - vs OAK: 17 of Raiders 20 points are a direct result of Giants turnovers. Defense allows 3.

In total, I've got the Giants defense solely responsible for 124 points in 9 games. It's not an exact science, but with the Giants having allowed 243 points, that's a pretty damning statement on the role offensive carelessness has played in that total.

Defense has been quite good this season.
If anything the defense is getting a bun rap if looked at by points  
Victor in CT : 11/15/2013 11:54 am : link
allowed. They have been put in impossible situations by the offense from the first play of the season.
Wow if those numbers are right about half the points given up  
Giants Fan in Steelers Land : 11/15/2013 12:05 pm : link
are special teams gaffes and turnovers.

Would love to compare these numbers with '07. I think that was the year they set an NFL record for least turnovers in a season.
Here's a simple way of doing it  
Jerry in DC : 11/15/2013 12:13 pm : link
I've got the Giants for 8 TDs allowed on offense and STs.

- Based on fantasy football #s, I've got a total of 77 TDs scored this year on D/ST, or 2.41 per team

- The Giants are currently #26 in the league, allowing 27.0 points per game

- If we'd allowed the average # of TDs from O/ST, we would be allowing 22.6 PPG, which would be 13th in the league

This doesn't account for all other terrible spots that the O has put the D in, which is almost certainly worse than the league average. Our defense has the worst starting field position in the league (Football Outsiders). We have 28 turnovers which is so far and away #1 in the league that it's ridiculous. The closest is Arizona with 21.

If you factor all that stuff in, there's a case that this is a top 10 defense in the league. That's how bad our O has been this year.
aside from the turnovers  
Les in TO : 11/15/2013 12:56 pm : link
and special teams blunders which directly lead to points against that are not the defense's fault, the points allowed have been skewed also somewhat by the fact that the giants are near the top of the nfl in 3 and outs on offense; the defensive numbers would even better if the offense could get the odd first down here and there, extend drives, get better field position etc.

at least the defense is publicly saying all the right things and not fostering divisions in the locker room like we saw in the dave brown era - 2 recent super bowls will buy you that harmony and trust.

if moore can rise to the occasion and we can get some more positive play from not only beason, but rivers, williams and paysinger, provided everyone stays relatively healthy we can be in for some low scoring tight games in the second half of the season.
we have the most turnover-prone offense  
area junc : 11/15/2013 12:57 pm : link
and worst special teams in the league. we are a top 5 defense imo
Interesting rsjem  
Southern Man : 11/15/2013 1:04 pm : link
Thanks for doing that. Jerry...you lost me brother.
Looking at the points allowed  
BigBlueinChicago : 11/15/2013 1:27 pm : link
The 28 turnovers this season has led to the opposing team scoring 93 points off them.

19 of the 28 turnovers have ended with the Giants defense starting in their own territory. Opponents have scored 93 points off them.

The other 9 times there has been turnover not in Giants territory, the defense has held them to 0 points.

10 times this season, the Giants have had a turnover where the defense has been forced to start the NYG 35 (essentially, field goal range).

Also, as Jerry mentioned, 8 TD's have been given up without the defense even being on the field. If you simply took those away, the Giants would only be giving up 20.7 PPG, good for 8th in the NFL.
These stats are shocking. Coughlin should...  
Jimmy Googs : 11/15/2013 1:31 pm : link
not allow the Offense or Special Teams to take the field anymore.


RE: Interesting rsjem  
rsjem1979 : 11/15/2013 1:32 pm : link
In comment 11339176 Southern Man said:
Quote:
Thanks for doing that. Jerry...you lost me brother.


It was actually kind of therapeutic to go back to the play-by-play for those games and realize that I wasn't crazy for thinking the defense has been really good this year.

Then I go back to being thoroughly pissed off by the fact that if the offense had been even remotely competent they'd be no worse than 5-4.
Can't really re-rank the Giants  
PEEJ : 11/15/2013 1:38 pm : link
without doing every other team as well
.  
arcarsenal : 11/15/2013 1:42 pm : link
Bring back Spags. Fewell only employs a non-aggressive, bend but don't break scheme.
FootballOutsiders tracks drive stats...  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 11/15/2013 1:51 pm : link
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/drivestatsdef2013

Giants Defense
Avg. Starting Position for Drive: 32.3 yd line (WORST in NFL)
Avg. Yards given up per Drive: 28.0 yds per drive (12th in NFL)

So not only are the turnover and ST's TDs influencing the points allowed by this defense, but the amount of weakass drives we have with 0 or 1 first downs are killing our D when it comes to starting field position.

Our D has been impressive this year considering how poor JPP and Tuck have been. If this defense had elite edge rushing, they could be very good.
This is one season where  
ZGiants98 : 11/15/2013 3:00 pm : link
you really should look at how many yards they've allowed. With the ridiculous amount of turnovers the first 6 games and them being put in terrible positions, you really should throw points out the window.

Being 11th in the league in yards allowed, seems about right for this defense. Also, Beason and Hill were added later and guys like Tuck, JPP, Williams, Paysinger, and even Rivers have come on lately.

11th is about right with all the new additions and guys getting healthier I think we can be even better.
There  
NJGiantFan84 : 11/15/2013 3:04 pm : link
were also a number of INT's that put the opposing offense in the redzone or close to it. I attribute all of those points to the offense as well, especially FG's yeilded in those situations. Last calculation I did it was 80+ that could be attributed to the offense or ST's.

RE: FootballOutsiders tracks drive stats...  
BigBlueinChicago : 11/15/2013 3:08 pm : link
In comment 11339279 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:
Quote:
So not only are the turnover and ST's TDs influencing the points allowed by this defense, but the amount of weakass drives we have with 0 or 1 first downs are killing our D when it comes to starting field position.


You are correct on this.

This season, the Giants are 27th in the NFL in percentage of drives that end in a "Three-and-Out" (27.5% - 32 of 116 possessions).
Just to play devil's advocate  
Phil S : 11/15/2013 3:58 pm : link
If our opponents are scoring on defense and special teams they can be conservative on offense which might make our defense look better than it is.
No Phil.  
Shockeyisthebest80 : 11/15/2013 4:05 pm : link
The Giants' numbers against big name RBs (Murray, McCoy 2x, Charles, Peterson, Forte) are too good for that to be the case.
Don't think the defense  
JoefromPa : 11/15/2013 6:16 pm : link
really has a case to mutiny against the offense, because Eli and the offense carried them for most of the past 2 years.
Look at the yards allowed per game  
derpaderp : 11/15/2013 6:18 pm : link
(11th) in the league vs points allowed (26th) in the league. That's how skewed it is.
Throw the Vikings game  
Glover : 11/15/2013 8:12 pm : link
out. Doesnt count, the Giants defense is below average and need ing an overhaul.
Even to some extent the giants played some decent D against carolina  
Neverend : 11/15/2013 8:15 pm : link
the giants literally had 13 net yards of offense at the half against the panthers. 13! I'm sure Perry fewell wishes he had that call back at the end of the half, on 3rd down where the panthers had no timeouts, he should've went to a zone or play two high or something. With that said, the giants could've went to the half with only a two score deficit. A half in which they literally had 13 yds of offense. The defense was actually getting some stops in that game and turnovers as well before they collapsed. The run defense uncharacteristically was getting gashed that day.

Even though the chiefs had season highs in points and yardage against the giants (Embarrassing actually), the giants played superb defense for lots of stretches in that game. There was a stretch from the 3rd quarter into the early 4th where the defense forced 4 consecutive stops by turnover/punt. People forget, in the chiefs TD drive that put them up 24-14, the defense actually got a stop in that one which would've forced a long FG. Then Damontre moore decides to jump offsides on the FG attempt! The defense forces them out of FG range thanks to a holding penalty, but their no name TE got behind Herzlich on a play action fake for a 20+ yd gain that put the chiefs in eventual scoring range. The next TD possession was set up by a turnover as well. Hypothetically, could've only been 20 pts that day.

But that chiefs game was a dog fight all the way. Andy Reid said as much. The final score isn't indicative of how the defense played. When your offense continues to suck ass, eventually offenses will do something, like we saw in that chief and panther game. Even the dallas game, don't forget about McBride not getting the 'PETER' call from randle, and then dallas scoring a quick 7 on a very short field on a witten TD. That's another TD I'd blame on turnovers. I have dallas down for 13 legit offensive points in that one. I believe the giants gave up only 1 pass play of over 20 yds in that game too

The defense is 11th in yardage, 5th in yards per play. With a lot of very good to solid statistics otherwise. They're way better than what they were last year. I'm thrilled and happy. I somewhat agree that the secondary play has benefited from bad QBs, no question, but this pass defense isn't comparable to the league's worst defenses by any stretch. They were average during the 6 game losing streak overall. For instance in the first half against denver, when the broncos tried to go 3 wides and air out against the giants, they struggled to get any consistency and couldn't convert on 3rd down. The majority of their yardage was accumulated from the first drive (with one big play by Caldwell, the rest was dink and dunk). When Denver changed up their game plan in the second half and did some passing under center, multiple TEs, unbalanced formations, running the ball a lot more, the defense collapsed. Not because of the secondary, it was because of the shitty LBs and unable to stop the run in nickel. Jacquain Williams had a brutal game too. Now with the LBs playing a lot better, I'd like to think they wont struggle with those edge runs like they did.

This defense is for real. They're obviously not the chiefs and panthers, but there should be no argument against them being bad. And fuck people that are unsatisfied because of the level of competition. What would you rather have? Them struggling against those offenses but key stevie brown tunrovers saving the day like last year? Some were happier then it seems like
RE: Don't think the defense  
BigBlueinChicago : 11/15/2013 10:17 pm : link
In comment 11339855 JoefromPa said:
Quote:
really has a case to mutiny against the offense, because Eli and the offense carried them for most of the past 2 years.


That is why Kiwanuka made the point on the radio this week that Eli has bailed them out over the last few years and it's only fair that the defense returns the favor this time while the offense is struggling.
seems so easy  
bc4life : 11/16/2013 8:35 am : link
to address this issue when they post stats. total points versus points by special teams and defense
Not a big Fewell guy  
mrvax : 11/16/2013 9:15 am : link
but I have been defending him all year and don't want to see him fired yet even if Gilbride and Coughlin retire.

A few more wins and a 5-11 season and everyone will stay and we have a mediocre draft spot.

real time  
area junc : 11/16/2013 9:19 am : link
important to look at this Defense in real time: lots of new faces..familiar ones gone. takes time to gel.

this very talented defense has come together and only time and games played does it. and they are getting better quickly

currently, right now, they are the hottest defense in the league. what happened a month ago doesnt matter
IT WOULD BE INTERESTING  
OldPolack : 11/16/2013 11:05 am : link
to see the STATS with BENSON starting at MLB.
RE: IT WOULD BE INTERESTING  
BigBlueinChicago : 11/16/2013 11:22 am : link
In comment 11340277 OldPolack said:
Quote:
to see the STATS with BENSON starting at MLB.


I would too if such a player existed on the team.
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