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Who is up for some good 'ol Eli pessimism?

GiantFilthy : 12/9/2013 8:47 am
Lets lock all this shit up in one thread. Serious pessimism only please. Here's mine.

1. Ten years in Eli still has poor mechanics.

2. He still can't lead a receiver and regularly forces his receiver to stop their route and/or throws it behind his receiver. Can you imagine Cruz's numbers if Eli could hit him in stride with some consistency?

3. Eli still has piss poor field vision.

4. Despite always saying the right thing and taking the fall when a microphone is in his face, judging by his body language and motion on the field he blames his receiver for his poor throws seemingly every interception.

5. Eli breaths with his mouth open. Always.

6. His contract does great harm to this team.

7. He still doesn't know how to delicately throw the check down with touch.

8. Delay of game.

9. The fact that he is the best quarterback in the history of this franchise, and he is, has as much to do with the way the NFL has evolved offensively as well as our history of quarterbacks as it does with Eli.

TLDR: Rivers & gt;


I see you became a Giants fan in 86  
JoefromPa : 12/9/2013 8:53 am : link
probably the greatest team in the history of the Giants.

Perhaps your opinion is a bit influenced by that fact.

I've been a fan since 56 so my take is different. I still believe without a doubt that Eli is part of the answer to fixing this mess.
Not influenced at all.  
GiantFilthy : 12/9/2013 8:55 am : link
I had no idea I was watching a great football team when I was 5 years old.

Can't fix this mess without fixing Eli first.
Well  
dep026 : 12/9/2013 8:56 am : link
Eli >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rivers
....  
BrettNYG10 : 12/9/2013 8:56 am : link
He's been shit since he had his second kid.

Grip strength.
I love Eli  
SanFranGiantsFan : 12/9/2013 8:57 am : link
But he's been terrible this season. And I think a lot of is due to an OL that is horrific, Nicks' whole thing, & the lack of a real running game until Brown returned.

He's part of the solution, not the problem. But they're going to have do a helluva job this offseason to fix the things around Eli.

And I'm pretty confident Eli will pissed off beyond belief & come out have a really good '14 campaign. Just like 2010 inspired him to play out of his mind in '11, I think something similar occurs next year.
Manning has had a miserable year, aside from the lousy OL  
jeff57 : 12/9/2013 8:57 am : link
And he looks even more immobile than ever. Maybe he'll snap back next year. Then again, maybe he won't. I'd like to see Nassib get a shot to start against Washington.
Other people's kids are awful.  
GiantFilthy : 12/9/2013 8:57 am : link
And Eli is other people.
Fix the line and it all starts there.  
Randy in CT : 12/9/2013 8:57 am : link
Then if he has protection, he and his receivers have to be on the same page. Don't know who's at fault but I err on the side of the guy who is known for his work ethic and understanding of the offense.
This  
dep026 : 12/9/2013 8:58 am : link
would be much better in the epic thread.
dep's gonna go on a rampage when he sees this.  
BrettNYG10 : 12/9/2013 8:58 am : link
.
RE: dep's gonna go on a rampage when he sees this.  
dep026 : 12/9/2013 8:59 am : link
In comment 11384127 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
.


Not really. Its filth. Lot of tongue in cheek. I just find it amusing we are still talking Eli after a game where the defense gave up a score on 7 of the 9 possessions of the game. We were down 20 when Eli's completion percentage was 70%. Think about that....
I am 57 years old  
NewBlue : 12/9/2013 9:02 am : link
I remember the Yankee Stadium-Yale Bowl-Shea Staduim-Early Giants Stadium years.
None of that excuses what crap we have put on the field recently. Even in 2011 we played poorly virtually the entire year until we got hot very late. These blow-outs, last year vs. Cincy...Atlanta....Baltimore...this year vs. Carolina....San Diego and what certainly will take place over the next few weeks should give no one pause. This is a mess....that is not some kind of knee-jerk reaction.
I look at Eli much the way (guessing) a lot of us  
Beez : 12/9/2013 9:02 am : link
had to make some realizations about our relationships with our fathers, at one point or another. They (dads, Eli) are not going to change. It's too far in. So what can WE (ie, front office) do to make the situation better? Alter things AROUND Eli for the next 5-6-7 years, and see if he's got one more great run in him.

Don't waste time trying to "fix Eli." Instead give him a better O-line, a good TE, a season-long workhorse in the backfield (love Brown, but it's a matter of time, isn't it?), and get the defense shored up.

Eli's going to make Eli moves and mistakes. Every good girl has at least a blemish here and there (except BlueLou's girls, of course).

Eli is Eli.
RE: RE: dep's gonna go on a rampage when he sees this.  
BrettNYG10 : 12/9/2013 9:03 am : link
In comment 11384132 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 11384127 BrettNYG10 said:


Quote:


.



Not really. Its filth. Lot of tongue in cheek. I just find it amusing we are still talking Eli after a game where the defense gave up a score on 7 of the 9 possessions of the game. We were down 20 when Eli's completion percentage was 70%. Think about that....


This was a failure on all ends of the team, obviously - and you're right, this game fell on the D - even if Eli didn't have a good game.
No doubt biggest factor  
oldutican : 12/9/2013 9:03 am : link
in game was total inability to stop Chargers. But that Rivers guy is pretty good.
He a good quarterback having  
rebel yell : 12/9/2013 9:03 am : link
a bad year. But it's always easy to over-simplify and blame it all on the QB. There is plenty of blame to go around. A totally inconsitent ground game, below average OL and WRs who sometimes seem to have their heads up their asses, no great options at TE, and the lsit goes on. In the end--that averages out to below average....and that's what this year's offense has been. If anyone can turn it around, Eli can.
Eli  
AcidTest : 12/9/2013 9:04 am : link
is erratic. Too erratic to be considered a top flight QB IMO. He has had some spectacular moments. Two incredible playoff runs culminating in two SB MVP awards, a period where he was considered the most clutch QB in the league, and the record for the most fourth quarter TD passes in one season.

But Eli has made some horrendous decisions, and a lot of what you say is accurate. He has played very badly for a season and a half, and is now the #32 QB in the league with twenty INTs. He's good for at least one INT a game. Many of them are absolute backbreakers. Not all of this is because the OL sucks, the ridiculous complexity of Gilbride's offense, or the lack of a third receiving option. These would limit any QB, but he is also responsible.

The Giants will nonetheless stick with Eli, and try and build the team around him. But I'd be loathe to restructure or extend him at this point, even if we have to pay him $15.5M next season. After 2014, we can cut him with a minimal cap hit.

He has to play better next year.
RE: No doubt biggest factor  
dep026 : 12/9/2013 9:04 am : link
In comment 11384147 oldutican said:
Quote:
in game was total inability to stop Chargers. But that Rivers guy is pretty good.


It helped his guys were wide open too.... haha. I mean all 3 TDs guys were open by yards.
10. Can't throw a screen pass.  
Cam in MO : 12/9/2013 9:07 am : link
11. Throws high over the middle. Hasn't been able to fix that in 10 years.

12. Looks horrible with facial hair.

13. Looks horrible without facial hair.

14. Even when a picture of him snapping a picture of the Sandy flooding goes viral, it doesn't even end up as funny or as popular as a 12yr old making a horrible music video.


. . . .  
jeff57 : 12/9/2013 9:08 am : link
Quote:



Not that Manning didn’t have his opportunities. There was a deep pass down the sidelines to a wide-open Louis Murphy that died in the air and got broken up. There was a third-down pass to an open Nicks that was thrown a bit too far behind him. And there was 43-yard Hail Mary pass to Nicks on the final play before halftime – a potential momentum-changer that was caught just short of the end zone.






Link - ( New Window )
At my ripe ole age  
NewBlue : 12/9/2013 9:10 am : link
It still stings when we lose. Finding this site has been a godsend to be able to vent and commiserate with like minded people.
This brings me to dep026:

Guy, I don't know what your purpose is here. Remember the oldest adage in football is the QB gets too much of the credit or too much of the blame. Those salaries have a way of dictating that axiom. I can only speak for myself, it kills me to see Eli fail. I do see Diehl & Brewer and company, I do see lackluster receiving, but being a coach on the field an important part of Eli's responsibilities is to make those around him better. Will them into it. There should be a fear of failure and thus having to answer to Eli.

To me Eli is rapidly using up his credibility around here.
I think overpaid has to be by far #1.  
jcn56 : 12/9/2013 9:13 am : link
Eli has his downsides, don't get me wrong. The major problem is we're paying him a shit ton of money, and he's not delivering the performance to go with it.

If you pay Tom Brady that money, you can put shit next to him at WR and he makes them great. Ditto for Drew Brees. Not the same for Eli, he needs another level of talent around him. Fine, but if that's the case then he needs to be paid commensurately in order to have the money to put those people around him.

The same holds for a lot of guys on the team. I'd keep Tuck around, but I'm paying him a fraction of what he gets. Truthfully though, Tuck signed a reasonable contract and was probably underpaid for a couple of seasons at his peak. Eli has been getting top dollar and hasn't returned on that investment.
15. Abby isn't a hot as I'd like a star QB's wife to be  
Cam in MO : 12/9/2013 9:13 am : link


16. Jenny McCarthy


RE: At my ripe ole age  
dep026 : 12/9/2013 9:14 am : link
In comment 11384165 NewBlue said:
Quote:
It still stings when we lose. Finding this site has been a godsend to be able to vent and commiserate with like minded people.
This brings me to dep026:

Guy, I don't know what your purpose is here. Remember the oldest adage in football is the QB gets too much of the credit or too much of the blame. Those salaries have a way of dictating that axiom. I can only speak for myself, it kills me to see Eli fail. I do see Diehl & Brewer and company, I do see lackluster receiving, but being a coach on the field an important part of Eli's responsibilities is to make those around him better. Will them into it. There should be a fear of failure and thus having to answer to Eli.

To me Eli is rapidly using up his credibility around here.


Ill end this with a quote from a line from 8 mile.

And Ill end this with a fuck you, and have a nice day! :)
Just an aside from yesterdays game,  
barens : 12/9/2013 9:14 am : link
and I'm sure it's been mentioned on other threads, but Boothe's snaps contributed to the mechanical problems we saw yesterday. Looked like those high snaps completely took him out of rythym.
^lol  
BrettNYG10 : 12/9/2013 9:14 am : link
.
RE: Eli  
Bramton1 : 12/9/2013 9:15 am : link
In comment 11384150 AcidTest said:
Quote:
After 2014, we can cut him with a minimal cap hit.


Sigh...
That was to Cam.  
BrettNYG10 : 12/9/2013 9:16 am : link
.
Brees and Brady  
dep026 : 12/9/2013 9:16 am : link
have no talent at WR? Holy hell.
That isn't what he said at all.  
GiantFilthy : 12/9/2013 9:17 am : link
.
17:  
Cam in MO : 12/9/2013 9:18 am : link
266/454 58.6% 3,254yds 7.2yds/att 16td 20int



18: Career 64.4 Completion %, 95.9 Rating.  
GiantFilthy : 12/9/2013 9:26 am : link




Wait, that's Rivers.
RE: 18: Career 64.4 Completion %, 95.9 Rating.  
dep026 : 12/9/2013 9:27 am : link
In comment 11384209 GiantFilthy said:
Quote:




Wait, that's Rivers.


0 SBs
many critical game ending playoff INTs.

Oh wait, thats Rivers as well.
Eli has a track record of above average QB play  
JoeyBigBlue : 12/9/2013 9:28 am : link
I think he needs to work with his coach Cutcliffe, on refining his mechanics in the offseason. He will be OK.


Jerry Reese and the Giants Front Office need to have a real strong offseason. I would consider the following things.

- Fire OC Kevin Gilbride, ST Coach Tom Quinn, and QB Coach Sean Ryan.

- Rebuild the O-Line specifically the Interior O-Line.. Release David Baas, Release Chris Snee, and Say Good bye to David Diehl. Sign a 2 veteran Guards draft a young Center (2nd round pick) or Draft a OT in first Round and move Pugh to guard.

- Say Good bye to Hakeem Nicks. Promote Randle to starter. Sign veteran 3rd receiver

- Re-sign Justin Tuck to reasonable 2 to 3 year contract.

- Say Good bye to Corey Webster. Draft a Corner High (1st round). This team needs a No. 1 corner in the Worst way to pair with Amukamara

- Re-sign Jon Beason to reasonable 2 to 3 year contract.

- Sign veteran strongside linebacker.

- Target RB, Guards, Linebacker, and WR late in draft Rounds (3-7)
RE: RE: 18: Career 64.4 Completion %, 95.9 Rating.  
GiantFilthy : 12/9/2013 9:35 am : link
In comment 11384218 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 11384209 GiantFilthy said:


Quote:






Wait, that's Rivers.



0 SBs
many critical game ending playoff INTs.

Oh wait, thats Rivers as well.


There is a group of posters here that argue Eli > Peyton because of the ring count. Your reply smells the same to me.
But Eli isnt as good as Peyton  
dep026 : 12/9/2013 9:36 am : link
you must have been asleep on Rivers last two years.
His last two seasons.  
GiantFilthy : 12/9/2013 9:39 am : link
When he still came out with a higher QB rating than 8 of Eli's 10 seasons and matched the best completion percentage Eli has ever had in his career?
the 1 misconception  
hitdog42 : 12/9/2013 9:41 am : link
is that randle can come in ad be a #1 or 1A. he hasnt show it in many opportunities with #3 corners and little safety help against him.
if/when nicks is gone, the giants will need EITHER another good WR or (and my preference) a very good TE. with teams playing 2 deep you NEED to occupy the seam and we simply dont.
Hahaha!  
Cam in MO : 12/9/2013 9:43 am : link
Quote:
But Eli isnt as good as Peyton
dep026 : 9:36 am : link : reply
you must have been asleep on Rivers last two years.
His last two seasons.



GiantFilthy : 9:39 am : link : reply
When he still came out with a higher QB rating than 8 of Eli's 10 seasons and matched the best completion percentage Eli has ever had in his career?





What good is QB rating  
dep026 : 12/9/2013 9:45 am : link
if you dont win?
Ive said this before  
MarshallOnMontana : 12/9/2013 9:46 am : link
as a Giant fan our 2 recent SB runs are the best sports fan gift I've ever had, and Eli has played a big part in both.

But as a football fan, those rings kinda frustrate me, because of the way it clouds so many of these conversations. Can we all just admit that we've been a bit fortunate to win 2 SB with this guy? That it has been the best case scenario that could ever be imagined in this lifetime? We don't need to give the trophies back, they stay.. In fact on some level it makes them even sweeter.

He's a decent QB with a high ceiling for short stretches. Week to week and season to season though, there are tons of guys more consistent than him in this era. But you'd get killed for ever thinking those guys are in his ball park because of two well timed month stretches. Stretches where a lot went our, much deeper than a hot QB
RE: What good is QB rating  
Cam in MO : 12/9/2013 9:47 am : link
In comment 11384284 dep026 said:
Quote:
if you dont win?



Strange that you would bring that up since Eli has not been favorable in either category in the last two seasons.


agree with MOM  
hitdog42 : 12/9/2013 9:47 am : link
and the only way we have a chance to see differently is if he is put in a more QB friendly system like peyton/rivers have.
Agreed.  
Cam in MO : 12/9/2013 9:49 am : link
A different system would be great.

It's possible he could be much, much better in a different system.



RE: RE: What good is QB rating  
dep026 : 12/9/2013 9:49 am : link
In comment 11384294 Cam in MO said:
Quote:
In comment 11384284 dep026 said:


Quote:


if you dont win?




Strange that you would bring that up since Eli has not been favorable in either category in the last two seasons.



Ive gone on record about QB rating for years, and how overrated the stat is. I am not going to divulge in that anymore. Rivers has and always will be a product of a system (norv turner, mind you) and playing in a shitt division (up until this year), and playing over half his games in ideal weather situations.
RE: RE: RE: What good is QB rating  
Cam in MO : 12/9/2013 9:50 am : link
In comment 11384303 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 11384294 Cam in MO said:


Quote:


In comment 11384284 dep026 said:


Quote:


if you dont win?




Strange that you would bring that up since Eli has not been favorable in either category in the last two seasons.





Ive gone on record about QB rating for years, and how overrated the stat is. I am not going to divulge in that anymore. Rivers has and always will be a product of a system (norv turner, mind you) and playing in a shitt division (up until this year), and playing over half his games in ideal weather situations.



So it's okay for you to judge Rivers on two of his poorest seasons (you did it on this thread), but not Eli?

Okay.




Manning rating this year  
jeff57 : 12/9/2013 9:52 am : link
74.2. Ahead of only Weeden, Pryor and Smith.


Link - ( New Window )
..........  
GiantFilthy : 12/9/2013 9:53 am : link
Rivers is better.

But he gets to play in the warm sun.

Brees is better.

But he gets to play in a dome.

Peyton is better.

2 to 1 says he isn't.

Brady is better.

2 to 0 says he isn't.

even though we dont like the offense now...  
hitdog42 : 12/9/2013 9:53 am : link
is kevin gilbride a "system".
that "system" allows for streaky play that wins SB's... which we judge Eli so highly on.

the system argument works both ways... not trying to argue... but just pointing it out.

I would prefer to see us in a chargers like offense as well, i think eli's numbers would sky rocket, but the system has worked to his favor very much so
I never said  
dep026 : 12/9/2013 9:54 am : link
Eli was good this year, he hasnt been. But this lovefest for Rivers is nauseating. He is a JAG who puts up pretty numbers.

This year he has been good. Last two years he has been mediocre. The idea that Rivers is better than Eli is just plain out dumb.
hitdog-  
Cam in MO : 12/9/2013 9:56 am : link
absolutely true.

I think Joe's point about inconsistency is a system trait.

When this offense is "on" and everyone is on the same page, it's pretty much unbeatable.

When it isn't, it looks like shit.

It's just as fair to say that Eli could be worse in a different system as it is to say that he could be better.

But unless something changes, we'll never find out.


Rivers also choked away a 14-2 season with Tomlinson  
drkenneth : 12/9/2013 10:00 am : link
(the NFL MVP + OPOY).
Rivers isn't JAG.  
BrettNYG10 : 12/9/2013 10:04 am : link
.
He's a Charger.  
Cam in MO : 12/9/2013 10:05 am : link

Duh.



The biggest reason the Chargers lost that game in 06 to NE  
MarshallOnMontana : 12/9/2013 10:05 am : link
Is a muffed punt by Parker and also a fumbled interception return in the 2nd half off Brady by Mcree (pretty sure Troy Brown stripped him). Rivers wasn't great that day but that wasn't a QB centric team, it was his first season as a starter. The Chargers did choke away that game but Rivers wasn't the culprit.
RE: I think overpaid has to be by far #1.  
Toth029 : 12/9/2013 10:06 am : link
In comment 11384171 jcn56 said:
Quote:
If you pay Tom Brady that money, you can put shit next to him at WR and he makes them great. Ditto for Drew Brees. Not the same for Eli, he needs another level of talent around him. Fine, but if that's the case then he needs to be paid commensurately in order to have the money to put those people around him.

This is Tom's worst year by far, with an easy schedule as well, so I'm not sure this is good point. Drew Brees has had a very good group of receivers (he and Payton utilize RB's in the pass game very often, see Sproles and Bush) since he's gotten there. Lance Moore and Marques Colston are a very good duo, combined with everything else they do? It's an insane combo.

I think more than anything else, it's coaching. Belichick and Payton change up their system if they acquire certain talent at TE or RB. Get an elite talented TE? Use him in the slot, split out wide, etc. How many times have the Giants done this? They have an undersized TE now and use him exactly like they've used Bennett.
RE: Rivers also choked away a 14-2 season with Tomlinson  
GiantFilthy : 12/9/2013 10:06 am : link
In comment 11384340 drkenneth said:
Quote:
(the NFL MVP + OPOY).


Oh you mean his very first year as a starter in this league against the pitiful Tom Brady run Patriots? I mean we can go back and looks at Eli's dominant performance against the Panthers in 2005 if we need to.
63.5%, 4,115 yards, 26.5 TD, 17.5 INT, 88.65 RAT  
GiantFilthy : 12/9/2013 10:08 am : link
That is the average of Rivers' two mediocre seasons. On par or better than nearly every season of Eli's professional career.
Actually this statement is plain dumb.  
Cam in MO : 12/9/2013 10:10 am : link
Quote:
The idea that Rivers is better than Eli is just plain out dumb.


I think Eli is better than Rivers.

However, it is fucking idiotic to think that an argument can't be made that Rivers is the better QB.


How many HOF  
dep026 : 12/9/2013 10:11 am : link
offensive teammates did Rivers get to play with.

How many cold weather games did Rivers play. His career is so overrated its not even funny. I cant believe a single Giants fan would prefer Rivers over Eli. Comical at this point.
fuck Marmalard, hes a doucher..  
Davisian : 12/9/2013 10:12 am : link
And fuckin Opie Manning needs to get his head out of his ass.

Poor line play is only good for some of the blame..
RE: How many HOF  
GiantFilthy : 12/9/2013 10:15 am : link
In comment 11384374 dep026 said:
Quote:
offensive teammates did Rivers get to play with.


How many years in a row have we talked about our receiving core as being the most dynamic in franchise history? Eli has been stacked with weapons his entire career.
Amusing Thread  
Gary JC : 12/9/2013 10:15 am : link
You guys kill me with these "Eli" threads. The other QBs always look so much better. For you guys that are anti Eli, that's fine. You can campaign for change and certainly get your wish. But, prepare yourself. Because when you have the next Jesse Palmer, Mike Cherry, Dave Brown, Danny Kannel or even Kerry Collins, don't sulk as you're watching clips of those two superbowl runs online. Hey, maybe we can get both Raiders QBs for a bargain! Remember who Eli played against and defeated to hoist the trophy... TWICE! If you're going to look at one side of the coin, don't forget to turn it over.
Um.....  
Cam in MO : 12/9/2013 10:16 am : link
What does this:

Quote:
I cant believe a single Giants fan would prefer Rivers over Eli.



Have to do with this statement?

Quote:
The idea that Rivers is better than Eli is just plain out dumb.



The first statement implies that only Giants fans are idiots for thinking Rivers is better (because they're biased?).

The second (and the first chronologically- that you're trying to defend) is talking about anyone.


RE: Amusing Thread  
Cam in MO : 12/9/2013 10:18 am : link
In comment 11384390 Gary JC said:
Quote:
You guys kill me with these "Eli" threads. The other QBs always look so much better. For you guys that are anti Eli, that's fine. You can campaign for change and certainly get your wish. But, prepare yourself. Because when you have the next Jesse Palmer, Mike Cherry, Dave Brown, Danny Kannel or even Kerry Collins, don't sulk as you're watching clips of those two superbowl runs online. Hey, maybe we can get both Raiders QBs for a bargain! Remember who Eli played against and defeated to hoist the trophy... TWICE! If you're going to look at one side of the coin, don't forget to turn it over.



Who is "anti-Eli"?

Has anyone here said they want to get rid of him?

You are allowed to point out when a player is not doing well without wanting to cut him.



No one here has said anything about getting rid of Eli.  
GiantFilthy : 12/9/2013 10:22 am : link
But at the same time that argument is beginning to run a bit stale. Any replacement quarterback can help us miss the playoffs just as effectively as Eli. It isn't a Peyton situation where fans were losing faith because they failed in the postseason every year. We have trouble finding our way there even in a mediocre division.
RE: RE: How many HOF  
dep026 : 12/9/2013 10:22 am : link
In comment 11384385 GiantFilthy said:
Quote:
In comment 11384374 dep026 said:


Quote:


offensive teammates did Rivers get to play with.




How many years in a row have we talked about our receiving core as being the most dynamic in franchise history? Eli has been stacked with weapons his entire career.


None was ever by me. We never had great offensive weapons. 2011 was the only year where our WRs/TE could be consider near the league best.
Im not anti Eli  
MarshallOnMontana : 12/9/2013 10:22 am : link
he has a lot of redeeming qualities. Durability. A high ceiling as inconsistent as he may be. A knack for late/close game situations, although sometimes his supporters can make a bit too much out of it at the expense of a QBs play in the first 55 minutes of a game.

I'm not looking to make a change right now

Someone Mentioned...  
Gary JC : 12/9/2013 10:23 am : link
...cutting him after 2014, another wants to start the backup and the overall tone is borderline hostile towards the guy. All I'm saying is that you guys received football memories that were often magical... many that some fans will never get to experience. Build around him and admire the fact that Eli is an old school football guy with a great work ethic and stellar attitude. It's rare.
RE: RE: RE:  
GiantFilthy : 12/9/2013 10:24 am : link
In comment 11384410 dep026 said:
Quote:
We never had great offensive weapons.


Welp, I think we are at a standstill here.
I enjoy the strawman quarterback argument  
Greg from LI : 12/9/2013 10:25 am : link
The only alternative to Eli Manning is Kent Graham or Dave Brown for 10 years or whatever.
We know how great his work ethic is.  
GiantFilthy : 12/9/2013 10:26 am : link
Maybe we should start questioning what exactly he is working on. It isn't mechanics. Or timing.
Yeah.  
Cam in MO : 12/9/2013 10:29 am : link
Tiki Barber.

Jeremy Shockey.

Plaxico Burress.

Amani Toomer.

Steve Smith.

Jacobs, Ward, and Bradshaw

Jacobs and Bradshaw (you know, two guys that rushed for 1000yds in the same season)

(and of course you've already mentioned Cruz and Nicks in 2011)

Not to mention the fantastic offensive line of DD, Richie, O'Hara, Snee, and KMac...

But he's never had Gates or Tomlinson, so he never had great talent around him.

Get the fuck out of here.


Eli goes down as the most enigmatic and awkward NFL (2) Champion ever  
djm : 12/9/2013 10:31 am : link
his peak (2007-2011) is in the past...he's now entering the truly awful phase and no coaching or OL fixes make a damn difference going forward. To quote Henry Hill's short, chilling and poignant words as we approached the final gloomy act of Goodfellas:

"this is the bad time"
RE: I enjoy the strawman quarterback argument  
BrettNYG10 : 12/9/2013 10:32 am : link
In comment 11384420 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
The only alternative to Eli Manning is Kent Graham or Dave Brown for 10 years or whatever.


People are so afraid of criticizing him it's absurd.

And Eli's my favorite player in any sport.
I don't agree at all djm.  
Cam in MO : 12/9/2013 10:33 am : link
A line and a change to the offense could work wonders, IMO.



Eli and Brett.  
oldog : 12/9/2013 10:33 am : link
Just hate to say it but the profile of Eli`s career is starting to remind me of Brett. Durability, real stardom, but in the end just couldn`t tell which guys he was trying to throw to.
RE: RE: I enjoy the strawman quarterback argument  
drkenneth : 12/9/2013 10:36 am : link
In comment 11384433 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
In comment 11384420 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


The only alternative to Eli Manning is Kent Graham or Dave Brown for 10 years or whatever.



People are so afraid of criticizing him it's absurd.

And Eli's my favorite player in any sport.


Eli stinks this year, as does the entire franchise. From Reese to Weatherford.

That being said: What is the alternative at QB next year?
RE: Eli and Brett.  
BrettNYG10 : 12/9/2013 10:36 am : link
In comment 11384439 oldog said:
Quote:
Just hate to say it but the profile of Eli`s career is starting to remind me of Brett. Durability, real stardom, but in the end just couldn`t tell which guys he was trying to throw to.


Hey now, I still know what the fuck I'm doing.
RE: RE: RE: I enjoy the strawman quarterback argument  
BrettNYG10 : 12/9/2013 10:37 am : link
In comment 11384445 drkenneth said:
Quote:
In comment 11384433 BrettNYG10 said:


Quote:


In comment 11384420 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


The only alternative to Eli Manning is Kent Graham or Dave Brown for 10 years or whatever.



People are so afraid of criticizing him it's absurd.

And Eli's my favorite player in any sport.



Eli stinks this year, as does the entire franchise. From Reese to Weatherford.

That being said: What is the alternative at QB next year?


No one. You don't give up on Eli. You don't look for alternatives with him. I don't think many are.
Cam  
djm : 12/9/2013 10:40 am : link
that's not necessarily my take on Eli. But this is the pessimism thread so when in Rome...
RE: RE: RE: RE: I enjoy the strawman quarterback argument  
drkenneth : 12/9/2013 10:41 am : link
In comment 11384449 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
In comment 11384445 drkenneth said:


Quote:


In comment 11384433 BrettNYG10 said:


Quote:


In comment 11384420 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


The only alternative to Eli Manning is Kent Graham or Dave Brown for 10 years or whatever.



People are so afraid of criticizing him it's absurd.

And Eli's my favorite player in any sport.



Eli stinks this year, as does the entire franchise. From Reese to Weatherford.

That being said: What is the alternative at QB next year?



No one. You don't give up on Eli. You don't look for alternatives with him. I don't think many are.


Agree 100%. So, we all agree he is playing like shit, but he is part of the future.

So WTF are we arguing about???
RE: I don't agree at all djm.  
GiantFilthy : 12/9/2013 10:42 am : link
In comment 11384436 Cam in MO said:
Quote:
A line and a change to the offense could work wonders, IMO.


Eli + Cruz + Nicks. That trio is just begging for an offense that rapes and pillages the defense with slants and back shoulders and nines and outs all day everyday until they can stop it. Hold off on the big play. Especially when you will just underthrow it anyway. Force feed that quick drop/short game with their asshole stitched shut until they explode.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I enjoy the strawman quarterback argument  
GiantFilthy : 12/9/2013 10:43 am : link
In comment 11384457 drkenneth said:
Quote:
In comment 11384449 BrettNYG10 said:


Quote:


In comment 11384445 drkenneth said:


Quote:


In comment 11384433 BrettNYG10 said:


Quote:


In comment 11384420 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


The only alternative to Eli Manning is Kent Graham or Dave Brown for 10 years or whatever.



People are so afraid of criticizing him it's absurd.

And Eli's my favorite player in any sport.



Eli stinks this year, as does the entire franchise. From Reese to Weatherford.

That being said: What is the alternative at QB next year?



No one. You don't give up on Eli. You don't look for alternatives with him. I don't think many are.



Agree 100%. So, we all agree he is playing like shit, but he is part of the future.

So WTF are we arguing about???


That he is a major part of the problem and needs to make changes himself in order to find success in the future.
Geez, sorry Brett,  
oldog : 12/9/2013 10:43 am : link
I meant the Wrangler guy.
Historically Eli is one of the best QBs this organization has ever had  
Blue Meanie : 12/9/2013 10:45 am : link
Presently his performance does no match his pay grade. Future Eli has to step it up or his remaining time in a Giants uniform will be painful for all involved...
hardly anyone is actually looking for alternatives  
Greg from LI : 12/9/2013 10:46 am : link
But any criticism of the guy tends to draw someone who blathers about "Well, you ungrateful bastards will deserve another decade of Dave Brown/Kent Graham/Kerry Collins blah blah blah"
Huge fan of Eli  
nomad1986 : 12/9/2013 10:46 am : link
Over 50 years rooting for this team he's one of my very favorite players of all time. But his play has been awful this year. I believe that's because his interior O Line is even more awful and he's playing in the same offense for 10 years that's gotten very easy to attack and defend for opponents.

I think all options should be on the table.

If you want to be really cold blooded the best option is probably a completely new coaching staff and finding out what a 33 year old 2 time Super Bowl MVP is worth on the open trade market.

That would be very out of character for the Giants though.
RE: Geez, sorry Brett,  
Cam in MO : 12/9/2013 10:46 am : link
In comment 11384467 oldog said:
Quote:
I meant the Wrangler guy.


Brett wears Wrangler jorts.



Filthy...Agree 100%  
drkenneth : 12/9/2013 10:47 am : link
Eli needs to play better, no doubt.
Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater  
HomerJones45 : 12/9/2013 10:47 am : link
He had a bad year throwing the ball. It happens. There is nothing to say he will have an equally bad year next year. He could come out next week and be lights out.

He's here and he's our guy. You don't throw someone under the bus for one bad year.
Bill O'Brien or Ken Whisenhunt  
drkenneth : 12/9/2013 10:48 am : link
would be very interesting candidates.
RE: Geez, sorry Brett,  
BrettNYG10 : 12/9/2013 10:54 am : link
In comment 11384467 oldog said:
Quote:
I meant the Wrangler guy.


Lol, I knew what you meant - found it funny.
RE: Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater  
GiantFilthy : 12/9/2013 11:00 am : link
In comment 11384479 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
He had a bad year throwing the ball. It happens. There is nothing to say he will have an equally bad year next year. He could come out next week and be lights out.

He's here and he's our guy. You don't throw someone under the bus for one bad year.


I'm not throwing him under the bus for one bad year. I'm throwing him under the bus for being a bad quarterback for good stretches just about every year of his career. Not even counting this terrible season and his short rookie year the dude averages a hair under 17 interceptions per season. That number is obviously rising.
RE: RE: Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater  
drkenneth : 12/9/2013 11:05 am : link
In comment 11384518 GiantFilthy said:
Quote:
In comment 11384479 HomerJones45 said:


Quote:


He had a bad year throwing the ball. It happens. There is nothing to say he will have an equally bad year next year. He could come out next week and be lights out.

He's here and he's our guy. You don't throw someone under the bus for one bad year.



I'm not throwing him under the bus for one bad year. I'm throwing him under the bus for being a bad quarterback for good stretches just about every year of his career. Not even counting this terrible season and his short rookie year the dude averages a hair under 17 interceptions per season. That number is obviously rising.


What's the of bitching about something from 2007? Who gives a shit? We've won 2 Super Bowls with him, would you rather have no Super Bowls, but nice, clean 30TD/7 Int seasons.

Eli needs to step his game up, no doubt.
Its all about the future....  
WideRight : 12/9/2013 11:07 am : link
Knowing what is known and thinking what you want, what are the Giants going to do?

For me the only actionable point is to shorten his decline phase. He could attain or hold a peak at level of some of the greats, so the thought that he'll do as well as them in their decline is suspect. He earned his money, so pay him and plan to move on sooner rather than later. Age 35?
If Eli was a 30/7 quarterback  
GiantFilthy : 12/9/2013 11:17 am : link
this team would be in contention every season. But no, I am not trying to rid us of any Super Bowls, but it is impossible to show that someone is not improving or getting worse without looking at the past.
RE: If Eli was a 30/7 quarterback  
drkenneth : 12/9/2013 11:27 am : link
In comment 11384593 GiantFilthy said:
Quote:
this team would be in contention every season. But no, I am not trying to rid us of any Super Bowls, but it is impossible to show that someone is not improving or getting worse without looking at the past.


So what seasons can you point to that Eli's performance kept us out of contention? Honest question.

He did carry this team in 2011. People who expect a QB to carry a team all-year, every year aren't being realistic.
In other words...If you are telling me this team would win 10 games  
drkenneth : 12/9/2013 11:30 am : link
if Eli was 30/7, I'd tell you you aren't being realistic.
Screw the coach chatter  
AnnapolisMike : 12/9/2013 11:33 am : link
The biggest issue the Giants face is figuring out if Eli is still the guy LONG TERM. Right now the Giants are paying Elite money to a Eli...who is clearly underperforming his contract. Any extension of Eli needs to be about what he can do for this team moving forward...NOT what he has done in the past.

My guess is the offensive line is so bad this year...that Eli is just completely off his game. It will be an interesting off season.
RE: Screw the coach chatter  
drkenneth : 12/9/2013 11:34 am : link
In comment 11384662 AnnapolisMike said:
Quote:
The biggest issue the Giants face is figuring out if Eli is still the guy LONG TERM. Right now the Giants are paying Elite money to a Eli...who is clearly underperforming his contract. Any extension of Eli needs to be about what he can do for this team moving forward...NOT what he has done in the past.

My guess is the offensive line is so bad this year...that Eli is just completely off his game. It will be an interesting off season.


Agree 100%
Hell, forget the touchdowns.  
GiantFilthy : 12/9/2013 11:37 am : link
You don't think this current season would be turned around if Eli had less than half of the interceptions he does right now?
two words  
bc4life : 12/9/2013 11:38 am : link
Diehl, Brewer, and no steady running game. All the pieces work together.
maybe  
Davisian : 12/9/2013 11:39 am : link
But I still think they'd be on the outside looking in.

RE: Hell, forget the touchdowns.  
drkenneth : 12/9/2013 11:40 am : link
In comment 11384675 GiantFilthy said:
Quote:
You don't think this current season would be turned around if Eli had less than half of the interceptions he does right now?


Define "turned around"....

You honestly believe this is a winning team? They've lost 13 of their last 21 games. Show me the plays that would have won this team 9-10 games. They aren't there.

For Christ sakes: People talk about Andre Brown like he's Walter Payton. Peyton Hillis is one of our RBs. The O-line stinks. We have no TE.


To simplify: Eli does well with good oline protection.  
chops : 12/9/2013 11:47 am : link
That includes a TE who can block.

Eli has been roughed up too much and it shows in his erratic play.

Fix the line and get a TE who can block.
My point being:  
drkenneth : 12/9/2013 11:47 am : link
This team just isn't good enough. It's got issues from the GM to the punter.

Eli isn't Tom Brady or Peyton Manning. To suggest that if he played at that level, the Giants would win 10 games this year, is just silly.
Absolutely.  
GiantFilthy : 12/9/2013 11:51 am : link
We are not a winning team, but I didn't think 2011 was either. But the goal is to first get to the playoffs and give your team a shot.

This terrible team has lost a game by 5, a game by 6, a game by 4, a game by 3, and a game by 7.

I'd say reversing Eli's season would probably leave us with a winning record. That doesn't mean we wouldn't get skullfarked in the opening round, but still.
If Eli played like a top ten QB last year  
BrettNYG10 : 12/9/2013 11:52 am : link
We would have made the playoffs.
Scratch my entire last post.  
GiantFilthy : 12/9/2013 11:52 am : link
I'm half drunk and counted wins as well.

This team sucks.
you'd be hard-pressed  
area junc : 12/9/2013 12:00 pm : link
to find a worse starting QB in the NFL. extremely frustrating

accuracy was never his strongsuit but at this point he's as inaccurate as any NFL QB I can remember.
Correcting my errors,  
GiantFilthy : 12/9/2013 12:03 pm : link
and pairing it with the thread on above average QB's we've faced, nah probably not this year. Just too much has gone wrong.

But to answer your earlier question, there have been years where I think he did kill any chance. His 25 INT season for sure. 2007 he had an amazing playoff run but no chance we even get to that point without Spags and that defense. That was another 20 INT year.
RE: Absolutely.  
drkenneth : 12/9/2013 12:03 pm : link
In comment 11384731 GiantFilthy said:
Quote:
We are not a winning team, but I didn't think 2011 was either. But the goal is to first get to the playoffs and give your team a shot.

This terrible team has lost a game by 5, a game by 6, a game by 4, a game by 3, and a game by 7.

I'd say reversing Eli's season would probably leave us with a winning record. That doesn't mean we wouldn't get skullfarked in the opening round, but still.


Eli was awesome in 2011, he was in the MVP discussion at one point. Again- To expect Eli to play at this level every season just isn't realistic.

There was no way they were winning that game yesterday. Eli didn't throw the ball well, but they still got their asses handed to them.

tom will pretty  
area junc : 12/9/2013 12:06 pm : link
much never criticize anything Eli but even he has had a hard time biting his tongue lately. there is no defending his play at this point
.....  
BrettNYG10 : 12/9/2013 12:06 pm : link
Quote:
Eli was awesome in 2011, he was in the MVP discussion at one point. Again- To expect Eli to play at this level every season just isn't realistic.


Then he shouldn't be paid like he can.
drkenneth  
area junc : 12/9/2013 12:07 pm : link
the way eli played in 2011 is the player we thought we were getting in 2004.

Thank God for those magical Super Bowl runs because he's delivered exactly ONE season that actually lived up to expectations
I don't think we'll have to  
Ash : 12/9/2013 12:08 pm : link
build a team that wins in spite of Eli or build a team that wins because of him. It seems he's just too inconsistent to go either way. I do think, however, that building a good OL is of paramount importance, especially for the run game. I think this team would end up better off if we could build a consistent, time-eating run game and leaving Eli to the PA-stuff. We've only seen one year in his career when Eli was able to put a pass dominant O on his back and put up an MVP type season.

The problem with what I've said above unfortunately is that it's only possible with Eli making less and he won't. When, in the history of the NFL, has a team depended so much on a 33 year old QB to "get his act together"?
Love Eli,  
Dave in Hoboken : 12/9/2013 12:08 pm : link
but there is no question he is doing some damage to his individual legacy the past couple of years. I think a lot of it has to do with the system, and this year in particular, also has a lot to do with the OLine. Like many others here, I think Eli would benefit being in a new system, and of course, an upgraded OLine.
RE: .....  
drkenneth : 12/9/2013 12:08 pm : link
In comment 11384774 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:


Quote:


Eli was awesome in 2011, he was in the MVP discussion at one point. Again- To expect Eli to play at this level every season just isn't realistic.



Then he shouldn't be paid like he can.


I agree 100%. No doubt. But's that's not our problem, it's not your money. Guess what? When you win 2 Super Bowls, you get paid. I'm not worried about his contract...They will work it out.
...  
BrettNYG10 : 12/9/2013 12:10 pm : link
Yeah, my point was that when he eats up that cap space and doesn't produce, it's a huge issue for the team. I only care about Eli's salary insofar as it prohibits the front office from building the team.
RE: drkenneth  
drkenneth : 12/9/2013 12:11 pm : link
In comment 11384778 area junc said:
Quote:
the way eli played in 2011 is the player we thought we were getting in 2004.

Thank God for those magical Super Bowl runs because he's delivered exactly ONE season that actually lived up to expectations


So winning 2 Super Bowls wasn't "the expectation"???

What is the expectation? That he just put up good #'s.....All due respect, that's just a dumb statement.
To keep in line with the theme of the thread,  
GiantFilthy : 12/9/2013 12:12 pm : link
we always talk about Eli's huge 2011 but tend to give little to no credit to the insane and unrepeatable breakout YAC performance from Cruz which helped to inflate Eli's numbers. It was still an incredible year for game winning drives.
2007 he was still on his first contract.  
Cam in MO : 12/9/2013 12:12 pm : link
Quote:
What is the expectation? That he just put up good #'s.....All due respect, that's just a dumb statement.


He has only delivered in one season since the mega deal: 2011.


It isn't a dumb statement.


I think he means expected to be a top flight QB.  
GiantFilthy : 12/9/2013 12:15 pm : link
You can't ever expect Super Bowls. That takes a team to win. But a QB can be a great QB even when they aren't surrounded by tons of talent. I think that is what they expected from him and for him to put us in position to compete in the postseason every year.
So when Ernie made the deal for Eli:  
drkenneth : 12/9/2013 12:15 pm : link
The expectation was for Eli to put up great #'s throughout his career? Or was it to win Super Bowls.

It is a stupid statement-You do realize that you are saying that a guy who gave us 2 Super Bowl MVPs, and will retire with all Giants passing records..."hasn't met expectation"

That's just crazy talk.
I thought Eli would be a 'better' QB when we drafted him.  
BrettNYG10 : 12/9/2013 12:15 pm : link
He was hyped to be on par with Peyton.

But, he won 2 SBs (both in an amazing fashion) and that's what matters.
RE: I think he means expected to be a top flight QB.  
drkenneth : 12/9/2013 12:16 pm : link
In comment 11384811 GiantFilthy said:
Quote:
You can't ever expect Super Bowls. That takes a team to win. But a QB can be a great QB even when they aren't surrounded by tons of talent. I think that is what they expected from him and for him to put us in position to compete in the postseason every year.


Who are these "great QBs" that are great when they aren't surrounded by talent?
This will be taken as more Eli bashing,  
GiantFilthy : 12/9/2013 12:17 pm : link
but I think any good to great QB in today's NFL in a pass happy offense over the course of a decade would also have broken every Giants record with the group of receivers we have had.
RE: This will be taken as more Eli bashing,  
drkenneth : 12/9/2013 12:24 pm : link
In comment 11384826 GiantFilthy said:
Quote:
but I think any good to great QB in today's NFL in a pass happy offense over the course of a decade would also have broken every Giants record with the group of receivers we have had.


You think our system currently ranks up there with the top systems? I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just saying this system currently sucks.

And we also overrate talent....Nicks has never played a full season, and looks to be toast. How bout' all those great TEs we have had!!! And RB talent!!!

Eli is sucking hard right now, but to act like he has Calvin Johnson, Jimmy Graham, & Shady McCoy is just plain wrong.

-His RB is the SAVIOR: Andre Brown!!! AND Peyton Hillis!

-His TE is Brandon Myers.

-Nicks is done. Cruz is shutdown, and Randle "Can't figure it out"

There is a talent deficiency on this offense.
And we haven't even talked about the O-line yet.  
drkenneth : 12/9/2013 12:25 pm : link
...
RE: Yeah.  
GiantFilthy : 12/9/2013 12:29 pm : link
In comment 11384428 Cam in MO said:
Quote:
Tiki Barber.

Jeremy Shockey.

Plaxico Burress.

Amani Toomer.

Steve Smith.

Jacobs, Ward, and Bradshaw

Jacobs and Bradshaw (you know, two guys that rushed for 1000yds in the same season)

(and of course you've already mentioned Cruz and Nicks in 2011)

Not to mention the fantastic offensive line of DD, Richie, O'Hara, Snee, and KMac...

But he's never had Gates or Tomlinson, so he never had great talent around him.

Get the fuck out of here.



What Cam said. Eli has always been surrounded with talent. You do have a point though about our system. It does suck so much that chances are plenty of other QB's with great arms would be much, much worse due to the mental game. Are we in agreement that management won't dare ask Coughlin to fire his guys?
his knock has always been  
fkap : 12/9/2013 12:30 pm : link
inconsistency. He can be fantastic and suck within the same game/season. a few years ago, we thought he had turned the corner and was becoming more consistent, but we were wrong.

Methinks he is what he is, and that's all he's ever going to be. Maybe a new system will let him relax and become more consistent. I doubt it.

At this point, he has 2 years on a contract worth 20 mil each year. I wouldn't touch it (unless by some miracle he's willing to take a paycut). He's not giving up 40 mil, so an extension means pushing that 40 mil into the future, plus the signing bonus he'll likely get in 2 years. Let him prove next year that he deserves extending and mortgaging the future. The only other option is cutting him outright, and let's get real: no matter how much we bitch about Eli, there is no replacement in sight.
Eli's career is just as ambiguous and frustrating as Coughlin's tenure  
Greg from LI : 12/9/2013 12:39 pm : link
The highs are fantastic but fleeting, and the lows are frequent and infuriating.
The QB's coming into the league have great arms  
jLefty : 12/9/2013 12:44 pm : link
but they are more mobile, can scramble, and have more touch on screens and short stuff. Also his receivers are pretty average.
I really wish we had RG3...  
drkenneth : 12/9/2013 12:47 pm : link
..Guy's a stud.
Filthy- Agree  
drkenneth : 12/9/2013 12:49 pm : link
Not sure what they do with TC and his staff. #1 story in the off-season. Changes are needed.
Regarding his WRs and talent  
dep026 : 12/9/2013 12:51 pm : link
Shockey was hurt for the majority of his career.
Burress was good, but again played on one foot for the majority of his career.
Smith Smith had 1 year.
Barber for his first two years
An aging Toomer
A banged up Nicks
Revolving Door at TE

The only prime player he has played with is Cruz, and even he has disappointed this year.

He has never had a Randy Moss, TO, Gonzo, Jimmy Graham, Wayne, Harrison, Gronk to work with. Even Rodgers had a great trio of Jennings, Driver, and Nelson to work with.

Lets not put our skill guys into HOF, potential HOF players just yet.
RG3 would be freaking lost over here.  
GiantFilthy : 12/9/2013 12:51 pm : link
HOWEVA!! He'd be better off getting destroyed mentally than his current situation which is destroying him physically.
Right, Eli can't lead a receiver  
Knee of Theismann : 12/9/2013 1:04 pm : link
Go watch Super Bowl 46 again.
I'm not doubting  
Knee of Theismann : 12/9/2013 1:09 pm : link
that he is in a slump and has been inaccurate all year, but to say he has never been able to lead a receiver is just crazy.
I know it's been ten years,  
GiantFilthy : 12/9/2013 1:11 pm : link
but you are forgetting that one game!

He's done it before. That's fantastic. But he is very bad at doing it with any kind of regularity.
Team Needs a Do-Over  
Percy : 12/9/2013 1:21 pm : link
And that takes time. Lots of it. So what is Eli worth in a trade for picks?
It's amazing,  
Arcanum : 12/9/2013 1:23 pm : link
How Eli is getting all the blame, for the bullshit, we've been forced to watch this season. Name one Qb, who would have success, with no running game, wrs dropping passes and running wrong routes, sorry ass oline, and a new TE for the fourth straight season. Oh yeah, and a OC who should be coaching pop warner. No wait, I take that back. Because he'll just ruin the confidence of a group of kids.
I don't think anyone is laying all the blame on Eli.  
GiantFilthy : 12/9/2013 1:26 pm : link
But he is the only one on the team getting paid like one of the top three players in the entire league while also showing regression in the process.
more evidence  
area junc : 12/9/2013 1:29 pm : link
it's not just Giants fans:

this is from bob mcginn's preview of the giants vs. packers a few weeks ago. as i understand mcginn is a respected nfl journalist with credible sources and contacts:

Quote:
Eli Manning (6-4˝, 218) is having an abysmal season. Entering the year with a career passer rating of 82.7, he finds himself mired at 68.5 and ahead of only Cleveland's Brandon Weeden and Minnesota's Josh Freeman. His performance level has declined in almost every area, from accuracy and decision-making to poise, pocket feel and toughness. When trapped, there are times when he will just fall down without a fight. Teams have blitzed Manning heavily, and with great success. He has lost mobility over the years and seems to have lost confidence in some of his receivers. He has released the ball prematurely to avoid hits. Manning doesn't appear to have anything wrong with him physically.

-------

Manning is off to his poorest start since establishing himself in 2005, and some personnel men are attributing it to being shell-shocked in the pocket.

"He's just scared to death," one scout said. "I haven't been around a player that has just taken a turn from being so good to so bad so quick. He's absolutely killing them."

On Oct. 21, Vikings DE Jared Allen bull-rushed LT Will Beatty. When Beatty backed into Manning, Allen reached all the way around Beatty and grabbed Manning around the waist as best he could. Although no other rusher approached, Manning really didn't try to release from Allen's grasp before falling down for a sack.

"It was funny," said another scout. "He goes right through the tackle and Eli just kind of went in the fetal position. It was embarrassing. I've never seen that before."

Two months shy of his 33rd birthday, Manning has lost some of his modest ability to move away from the rush. He has taken a lot of hits, especially early in the season, and he appears more gun-shy than ever before.

"The Jared Allen sack, I never saw that in my life," one of the personnel men said. "That was the epitome of him this year. He just cowered and started moving toward Beatty. It was mind-boggling.

"He is terrible. Terrible. It started out with everybody making excuses, but the more you watch him play, it's him. It's bizarre. It's pathetic."

NFC Personnel People on Eli - ( New Window )
its hard to consistently...  
nyblue56 : 12/9/2013 1:30 pm : link
lead a receiver when you are not sure they will be there. it seems he has no problem hitting a receiver in stride when he know they are where they are suppose to be. How many times we have seen a pass where he is accused of overshooting a WR or throwing to early. Remember the interception where Nicks stop running his route earlier in the year. how many times does this have to happen before the QB is hesitant or stare down the receiver (ie the near int on a pass to Cruz yesterday)before people start realizing that these problems are a by product of the system.
RE: I don't think anyone is laying all the blame on Eli.  
Arcanum : 12/9/2013 1:31 pm : link
In comment 11385145 GiantFilthy said:
Quote:
But he is the only one on the team getting paid like one of the top three players in the entire league while also showing regression in the process.


And that is true. But what Qb would flourish, Under the circumstances, I just mentioned ?
Anonymous sources  
dep026 : 12/9/2013 1:34 pm : link
sigh....

How about when Gruden defended Eli when he showed how the system was killing the Giants because Eli and the WR were not on the same page. Does he not count?
RE: its hard to consistently...  
Arcanum : 12/9/2013 1:36 pm : link
In comment 11385154 nyblue56 said:
Quote:
lead a receiver when you are not sure they will be there. it seems he has no problem hitting a receiver in stride when he know they are where they are suppose to be. How many times we have seen a pass where he is accused of overshooting a WR or throwing to early. Remember the interception where Nicks stop running his route earlier in the year. how many times does this have to happen before the QB is hesitant or stare down the receiver (ie the near int on a pass to Cruz yesterday)before people start realizing that these problems are a by product of the system.
EXACTLY!
RE: Anonymous sources  
BrettNYG10 : 12/9/2013 1:38 pm : link
In comment 11385177 dep026 said:
Quote:
sigh....

How about when Gruden defended Eli when he showed how the system was killing the Giants because Eli and the WR were not on the same page. Does he not count?


No, he doesn't, because he defends almost every quarterback to an irrational level - he's almost as bad as you are with Eli.
Um  
dep026 : 12/9/2013 1:40 pm : link
he knows the position more than anyone else here though. Ill listen to him talk QBs than some journalist or anyone on BBI.
I think too much is being made of Eli...  
nyblue56 : 12/9/2013 1:44 pm : link
and not enough is being made of the lack of coaching and adjustments to a system that is some what stale. The sight adjustments these receivers are making and with collasping pocket has been a recipe for disaster for the passing game. Teams are now bracketing Cruz and the lack of presence from Nicks and mistakes in routes by Randle, leaves Eli on an island where he has to hold the ball to make sure the receivers are getting into the passing lanes. Problem being for the most part he doesn't have the time to hold the ball and is forced to get it out too quick. Football outsiders had a break down of the chiefs game that highlights the problem this year
Link - ( New Window )
...  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 12/9/2013 1:45 pm : link
2011: 4th best QB
2012: 12th best QB
2013: 27th best QB

I have no idea how he has fallen so fast, but he is the Franchise and we need to get him back on track.

Good news is, he has an extremely high ceiling as a player. Bad news is, he is rarely performing at that ceiling and he has a very low floor for such a talented player. The difference between Eli's ceiling and his floor is the biggest gap in the entire NFL among QBs, without question.

He just had an amazing season in 2011, the clutchest QB season in NFL history. Now just 2 years later he has turned into Rex Grossman? It's amazing how much variance there is to Eli's game.

He needs to play better next season. And I'm hoping he has a new OC to help him out.
RE: Um  
BrettNYG10 : 12/9/2013 1:49 pm : link
In comment 11385210 dep026 said:
Quote:
he knows the position more than anyone else here though. Ill listen to him talk QBs than some journalist or anyone on BBI.


He does, but he's a joke of an announcer. Complete joke.
Gruden really likes Rex Grossman.  
GiantFilthy : 12/9/2013 1:49 pm : link
.
And Brandon Weeden.  
BrettNYG10 : 12/9/2013 1:50 pm : link
And Kirk Cousins.
If my cock was a QB  
Wuphat : 12/9/2013 2:00 pm : link
Gruden would really like it.
Now this is a cock.... I tell you what.  
GiantFilthy : 12/9/2013 2:05 pm : link
I like this cock, lemme tell ya'.
RE: Now this is a cock.... I tell you what.  
dep026 : 12/9/2013 2:06 pm : link
In comment 11385291 GiantFilthy said:
Quote:
I like this cock, lemme tell ya'.


And many others I am sure of too :)
...  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 12/9/2013 2:09 pm : link

Eli has probably the worst talent of his career around him this year.  
Cam in MO : 12/9/2013 2:11 pm : link
But this:

Quote:
He has never had a Randy Moss, TO, Gonzo, Jimmy Graham, Wayne, Harrison, Gronk to work with. Even Rodgers had a great trio of Jennings, Driver, and Nelson to work with.

Lets not put our skill guys into HOF, potential HOF players just yet.


Is fucking idiotic. Jennings, Driver, Nelson, Gronk, and Graham arent going to the HOF anytime soon, if at all.



RE: Eli has probably the worst talent of his career around him this year.  
drkenneth : 12/9/2013 2:14 pm : link
In comment 11385310 Cam in MO said:
Quote:
But this:



Quote:


He has never had a Randy Moss, TO, Gonzo, Jimmy Graham, Wayne, Harrison, Gronk to work with. Even Rodgers had a great trio of Jennings, Driver, and Nelson to work with.

Lets not put our skill guys into HOF, potential HOF players just yet.




Is fucking idiotic. Jennings, Driver, Nelson, Gronk, and Graham arent going to the HOF anytime soon, if at all.




Why did you remove the players who are going to the HOF out? You don't think Jimmy Graham is a HOF type talent? Gronk?
Too early for either.  
Cam in MO : 12/9/2013 2:21 pm : link
The reason I didn't mention the two was to point out that for whatever reason, in his defense of Eli (which borders on obsessive and scary TBH) he refuses to acknowledge that Eli has had talent around him. You don't need HOF skill players to be a consistantly good QB- he implied that all of those guys were HOF guys- and better than Eli's talent.


Hell, look at Elway, Favre, Marino, Brady, Peyton, Big Ben (ugh!), and plenty of others.


Even lower tiered guys that aren't HOF QB's...Trent Green, Rich Gannon, Fucking McNabb!


RE: Eli has probably the worst talent of his career around him this year.  
dep026 : 12/9/2013 2:23 pm : link
In comment 11385310 Cam in MO said:
Quote:
But this:



Quote:


He has never had a Randy Moss, TO, Gonzo, Jimmy Graham, Wayne, Harrison, Gronk to work with. Even Rodgers had a great trio of Jennings, Driver, and Nelson to work with.

Lets not put our skill guys into HOF, potential HOF players just yet.




Is fucking idiotic. Jennings, Driver, Nelson, Gronk, and Graham arent going to the HOF anytime soon, if at all.




I thought I separated the Packers WRs from the others I mentioned.
....  
yankees78 : 12/9/2013 2:24 pm : link
Still  
G-Men43 : 12/9/2013 6:16 pm : link
Better QB than Simms and all that played after Simms. Giants have always bought into recruiting mid-range performers (with exception of Y.A. and L.T) and expected MVP performances, oh well, here is whishing that the JETS do not gain majority ownership of the stadium.
The guys won 2 Super Bowls..  
Sean in PA : 12/9/2013 7:00 pm : link
he has exceeded expectations, Ernie traded for him to help the Giants win titles.

It is amazing though, last year after the Bowns game people on BBI talked about him being a MVP candidate, but since halftime in SF last year he's been off.
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