Lets lock all this shit up in one thread. Serious pessimism only please. Here's mine.
1. Ten years in Eli still has poor mechanics.
2. He still can't lead a receiver and regularly forces his receiver to stop their route and/or throws it behind his receiver. Can you imagine Cruz's numbers if Eli could hit him in stride with some consistency?
3. Eli still has piss poor field vision.
4. Despite always saying the right thing and taking the fall when a microphone is in his face, judging by his body language and motion on the field he blames his receiver for his poor throws seemingly every interception.
5. Eli breaths with his mouth open. Always.
6. His contract does great harm to this team.
7. He still doesn't know how to delicately throw the check down with touch.
8. Delay of game.
9. The fact that he is the best quarterback in the history of this franchise, and he is, has as much to do with the way the NFL has evolved offensively as well as our history of quarterbacks as it does with Eli.
TLDR: Rivers & gt;
Perhaps your opinion is a bit influenced by that fact.
I've been a fan since 56 so my take is different. I still believe without a doubt that Eli is part of the answer to fixing this mess.
Can't fix this mess without fixing Eli first.
Grip strength.
He's part of the solution, not the problem. But they're going to have do a helluva job this offseason to fix the things around Eli.
And I'm pretty confident Eli will pissed off beyond belief & come out have a really good '14 campaign. Just like 2010 inspired him to play out of his mind in '11, I think something similar occurs next year.
Not really. Its filth. Lot of tongue in cheek. I just find it amusing we are still talking Eli after a game where the defense gave up a score on 7 of the 9 possessions of the game. We were down 20 when Eli's completion percentage was 70%. Think about that....
None of that excuses what crap we have put on the field recently. Even in 2011 we played poorly virtually the entire year until we got hot very late. These blow-outs, last year vs. Cincy...Atlanta....Baltimore...this year vs. Carolina....San Diego and what certainly will take place over the next few weeks should give no one pause. This is a mess....that is not some kind of knee-jerk reaction.
Don't waste time trying to "fix Eli." Instead give him a better O-line, a good TE, a season-long workhorse in the backfield (love Brown, but it's a matter of time, isn't it?), and get the defense shored up.
Eli's going to make Eli moves and mistakes. Every good girl has at least a blemish here and there (except BlueLou's girls, of course).
Eli is Eli.
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Not really. Its filth. Lot of tongue in cheek. I just find it amusing we are still talking Eli after a game where the defense gave up a score on 7 of the 9 possessions of the game. We were down 20 when Eli's completion percentage was 70%. Think about that....
This was a failure on all ends of the team, obviously - and you're right, this game fell on the D - even if Eli didn't have a good game.
But Eli has made some horrendous decisions, and a lot of what you say is accurate. He has played very badly for a season and a half, and is now the #32 QB in the league with twenty INTs. He's good for at least one INT a game. Many of them are absolute backbreakers. Not all of this is because the OL sucks, the ridiculous complexity of Gilbride's offense, or the lack of a third receiving option. These would limit any QB, but he is also responsible.
The Giants will nonetheless stick with Eli, and try and build the team around him. But I'd be loathe to restructure or extend him at this point, even if we have to pay him $15.5M next season. After 2014, we can cut him with a minimal cap hit.
He has to play better next year.
It helped his guys were wide open too.... haha. I mean all 3 TDs guys were open by yards.
12. Looks horrible with facial hair.
13. Looks horrible without facial hair.
14. Even when a picture of him snapping a picture of the Sandy flooding goes viral, it doesn't even end up as funny or as popular as a 12yr old making a horrible music video.
Not that Manning didn’t have his opportunities. There was a deep pass down the sidelines to a wide-open Louis Murphy that died in the air and got broken up. There was a third-down pass to an open Nicks that was thrown a bit too far behind him. And there was 43-yard Hail Mary pass to Nicks on the final play before halftime – a potential momentum-changer that was caught just short of the end zone.
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This brings me to dep026:
Guy, I don't know what your purpose is here. Remember the oldest adage in football is the QB gets too much of the credit or too much of the blame. Those salaries have a way of dictating that axiom. I can only speak for myself, it kills me to see Eli fail. I do see Diehl & Brewer and company, I do see lackluster receiving, but being a coach on the field an important part of Eli's responsibilities is to make those around him better. Will them into it. There should be a fear of failure and thus having to answer to Eli.
To me Eli is rapidly using up his credibility around here.
If you pay Tom Brady that money, you can put shit next to him at WR and he makes them great. Ditto for Drew Brees. Not the same for Eli, he needs another level of talent around him. Fine, but if that's the case then he needs to be paid commensurately in order to have the money to put those people around him.
The same holds for a lot of guys on the team. I'd keep Tuck around, but I'm paying him a fraction of what he gets. Truthfully though, Tuck signed a reasonable contract and was probably underpaid for a couple of seasons at his peak. Eli has been getting top dollar and hasn't returned on that investment.
16. Jenny McCarthy
This brings me to dep026:
Guy, I don't know what your purpose is here. Remember the oldest adage in football is the QB gets too much of the credit or too much of the blame. Those salaries have a way of dictating that axiom. I can only speak for myself, it kills me to see Eli fail. I do see Diehl & Brewer and company, I do see lackluster receiving, but being a coach on the field an important part of Eli's responsibilities is to make those around him better. Will them into it. There should be a fear of failure and thus having to answer to Eli.
To me Eli is rapidly using up his credibility around here.
Ill end this with a quote from a line from 8 mile.
And Ill end this with a fuck you, and have a nice day! :)
Sigh...
Wait, that's Rivers.
Wait, that's Rivers.
0 SBs
many critical game ending playoff INTs.
Oh wait, thats Rivers as well.
Jerry Reese and the Giants Front Office need to have a real strong offseason. I would consider the following things.
- Fire OC Kevin Gilbride, ST Coach Tom Quinn, and QB Coach Sean Ryan.
- Rebuild the O-Line specifically the Interior O-Line.. Release David Baas, Release Chris Snee, and Say Good bye to David Diehl. Sign a 2 veteran Guards draft a young Center (2nd round pick) or Draft a OT in first Round and move Pugh to guard.
- Say Good bye to Hakeem Nicks. Promote Randle to starter. Sign veteran 3rd receiver
- Re-sign Justin Tuck to reasonable 2 to 3 year contract.
- Say Good bye to Corey Webster. Draft a Corner High (1st round). This team needs a No. 1 corner in the Worst way to pair with Amukamara
- Re-sign Jon Beason to reasonable 2 to 3 year contract.
- Sign veteran strongside linebacker.
- Target RB, Guards, Linebacker, and WR late in draft Rounds (3-7)
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Wait, that's Rivers.
0 SBs
many critical game ending playoff INTs.
Oh wait, thats Rivers as well.
There is a group of posters here that argue Eli > Peyton because of the ring count. Your reply smells the same to me.
if/when nicks is gone, the giants will need EITHER another good WR or (and my preference) a very good TE. with teams playing 2 deep you NEED to occupy the seam and we simply dont.
dep026 : 9:36 am : link : reply
you must have been asleep on Rivers last two years.
His last two seasons.
GiantFilthy : 9:39 am : link : reply
When he still came out with a higher QB rating than 8 of Eli's 10 seasons and matched the best completion percentage Eli has ever had in his career?
But as a football fan, those rings kinda frustrate me, because of the way it clouds so many of these conversations. Can we all just admit that we've been a bit fortunate to win 2 SB with this guy? That it has been the best case scenario that could ever be imagined in this lifetime? We don't need to give the trophies back, they stay.. In fact on some level it makes them even sweeter.
He's a decent QB with a high ceiling for short stretches. Week to week and season to season though, there are tons of guys more consistent than him in this era. But you'd get killed for ever thinking those guys are in his ball park because of two well timed month stretches. Stretches where a lot went our, much deeper than a hot QB
Strange that you would bring that up since Eli has not been favorable in either category in the last two seasons.
It's possible he could be much, much better in a different system.
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if you dont win?
Strange that you would bring that up since Eli has not been favorable in either category in the last two seasons.
Ive gone on record about QB rating for years, and how overrated the stat is. I am not going to divulge in that anymore. Rivers has and always will be a product of a system (norv turner, mind you) and playing in a shitt division (up until this year), and playing over half his games in ideal weather situations.
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In comment 11384284 dep026 said:
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if you dont win?
Strange that you would bring that up since Eli has not been favorable in either category in the last two seasons.
Ive gone on record about QB rating for years, and how overrated the stat is. I am not going to divulge in that anymore. Rivers has and always will be a product of a system (norv turner, mind you) and playing in a shitt division (up until this year), and playing over half his games in ideal weather situations.
So it's okay for you to judge Rivers on two of his poorest seasons (you did it on this thread), but not Eli?
Okay.
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But he gets to play in the warm sun.
Brees is better.
But he gets to play in a dome.
Peyton is better.
2 to 1 says he isn't.
Brady is better.
2 to 0 says he isn't.
that "system" allows for streaky play that wins SB's... which we judge Eli so highly on.
the system argument works both ways... not trying to argue... but just pointing it out.
I would prefer to see us in a chargers like offense as well, i think eli's numbers would sky rocket, but the system has worked to his favor very much so
This year he has been good. Last two years he has been mediocre. The idea that Rivers is better than Eli is just plain out dumb.
I think Joe's point about inconsistency is a system trait.
When this offense is "on" and everyone is on the same page, it's pretty much unbeatable.
When it isn't, it looks like shit.
It's just as fair to say that Eli could be worse in a different system as it is to say that he could be better.
But unless something changes, we'll never find out.
Duh.
This is Tom's worst year by far, with an easy schedule as well, so I'm not sure this is good point. Drew Brees has had a very good group of receivers (he and Payton utilize RB's in the pass game very often, see Sproles and Bush) since he's gotten there. Lance Moore and Marques Colston are a very good duo, combined with everything else they do? It's an insane combo.
I think more than anything else, it's coaching. Belichick and Payton change up their system if they acquire certain talent at TE or RB. Get an elite talented TE? Use him in the slot, split out wide, etc. How many times have the Giants done this? They have an undersized TE now and use him exactly like they've used Bennett.
Oh you mean his very first year as a starter in this league against the pitiful Tom Brady run Patriots? I mean we can go back and looks at Eli's dominant performance against the Panthers in 2005 if we need to.
I think Eli is better than Rivers.
However, it is fucking idiotic to think that an argument can't be made that Rivers is the better QB.
How many cold weather games did Rivers play. His career is so overrated its not even funny. I cant believe a single Giants fan would prefer Rivers over Eli. Comical at this point.
Poor line play is only good for some of the blame..
How many years in a row have we talked about our receiving core as being the most dynamic in franchise history? Eli has been stacked with weapons his entire career.
Have to do with this statement?
The first statement implies that only Giants fans are idiots for thinking Rivers is better (because they're biased?).
The second (and the first chronologically- that you're trying to defend) is talking about anyone.
Who is "anti-Eli"?
Has anyone here said they want to get rid of him?
You are allowed to point out when a player is not doing well without wanting to cut him.
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offensive teammates did Rivers get to play with.
How many years in a row have we talked about our receiving core as being the most dynamic in franchise history? Eli has been stacked with weapons his entire career.
None was ever by me. We never had great offensive weapons. 2011 was the only year where our WRs/TE could be consider near the league best.
I'm not looking to make a change right now
Welp, I think we are at a standstill here.
Jeremy Shockey.
Plaxico Burress.
Amani Toomer.
Steve Smith.
Jacobs, Ward, and Bradshaw
Jacobs and Bradshaw (you know, two guys that rushed for 1000yds in the same season)
(and of course you've already mentioned Cruz and Nicks in 2011)
Not to mention the fantastic offensive line of DD, Richie, O'Hara, Snee, and KMac...
But he's never had Gates or Tomlinson, so he never had great talent around him.
Get the fuck out of here.
"this is the bad time"
People are so afraid of criticizing him it's absurd.
And Eli's my favorite player in any sport.
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The only alternative to Eli Manning is Kent Graham or Dave Brown for 10 years or whatever.
People are so afraid of criticizing him it's absurd.
And Eli's my favorite player in any sport.
Eli stinks this year, as does the entire franchise. From Reese to Weatherford.
That being said: What is the alternative at QB next year?
Hey now, I still know what the fuck I'm doing.
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In comment 11384420 Greg from LI said:
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The only alternative to Eli Manning is Kent Graham or Dave Brown for 10 years or whatever.
People are so afraid of criticizing him it's absurd.
And Eli's my favorite player in any sport.
Eli stinks this year, as does the entire franchise. From Reese to Weatherford.
That being said: What is the alternative at QB next year?
No one. You don't give up on Eli. You don't look for alternatives with him. I don't think many are.
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In comment 11384433 BrettNYG10 said:
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In comment 11384420 Greg from LI said:
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The only alternative to Eli Manning is Kent Graham or Dave Brown for 10 years or whatever.
People are so afraid of criticizing him it's absurd.
And Eli's my favorite player in any sport.
Eli stinks this year, as does the entire franchise. From Reese to Weatherford.
That being said: What is the alternative at QB next year?
No one. You don't give up on Eli. You don't look for alternatives with him. I don't think many are.
Agree 100%. So, we all agree he is playing like shit, but he is part of the future.
So WTF are we arguing about???
Eli + Cruz + Nicks. That trio is just begging for an offense that rapes and pillages the defense with slants and back shoulders and nines and outs all day everyday until they can stop it. Hold off on the big play. Especially when you will just underthrow it anyway. Force feed that quick drop/short game with their asshole stitched shut until they explode.
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In comment 11384445 drkenneth said:
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In comment 11384433 BrettNYG10 said:
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In comment 11384420 Greg from LI said:
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The only alternative to Eli Manning is Kent Graham or Dave Brown for 10 years or whatever.
People are so afraid of criticizing him it's absurd.
And Eli's my favorite player in any sport.
Eli stinks this year, as does the entire franchise. From Reese to Weatherford.
That being said: What is the alternative at QB next year?
No one. You don't give up on Eli. You don't look for alternatives with him. I don't think many are.
Agree 100%. So, we all agree he is playing like shit, but he is part of the future.
So WTF are we arguing about???
That he is a major part of the problem and needs to make changes himself in order to find success in the future.
I think all options should be on the table.
If you want to be really cold blooded the best option is probably a completely new coaching staff and finding out what a 33 year old 2 time Super Bowl MVP is worth on the open trade market.
That would be very out of character for the Giants though.
Brett wears Wrangler jorts.
He's here and he's our guy. You don't throw someone under the bus for one bad year.
Lol, I knew what you meant - found it funny.
He's here and he's our guy. You don't throw someone under the bus for one bad year.
I'm not throwing him under the bus for one bad year. I'm throwing him under the bus for being a bad quarterback for good stretches just about every year of his career. Not even counting this terrible season and his short rookie year the dude averages a hair under 17 interceptions per season. That number is obviously rising.
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He had a bad year throwing the ball. It happens. There is nothing to say he will have an equally bad year next year. He could come out next week and be lights out.
He's here and he's our guy. You don't throw someone under the bus for one bad year.
I'm not throwing him under the bus for one bad year. I'm throwing him under the bus for being a bad quarterback for good stretches just about every year of his career. Not even counting this terrible season and his short rookie year the dude averages a hair under 17 interceptions per season. That number is obviously rising.
What's the of bitching about something from 2007? Who gives a shit? We've won 2 Super Bowls with him, would you rather have no Super Bowls, but nice, clean 30TD/7 Int seasons.
Eli needs to step his game up, no doubt.
For me the only actionable point is to shorten his decline phase. He could attain or hold a peak at level of some of the greats, so the thought that he'll do as well as them in their decline is suspect. He earned his money, so pay him and plan to move on sooner rather than later. Age 35?
So what seasons can you point to that Eli's performance kept us out of contention? Honest question.
He did carry this team in 2011. People who expect a QB to carry a team all-year, every year aren't being realistic.
My guess is the offensive line is so bad this year...that Eli is just completely off his game. It will be an interesting off season.
My guess is the offensive line is so bad this year...that Eli is just completely off his game. It will be an interesting off season.
Agree 100%
Define "turned around"....
You honestly believe this is a winning team? They've lost 13 of their last 21 games. Show me the plays that would have won this team 9-10 games. They aren't there.
For Christ sakes: People talk about Andre Brown like he's Walter Payton. Peyton Hillis is one of our RBs. The O-line stinks. We have no TE.
Eli has been roughed up too much and it shows in his erratic play.
Fix the line and get a TE who can block.
Eli isn't Tom Brady or Peyton Manning. To suggest that if he played at that level, the Giants would win 10 games this year, is just silly.
This terrible team has lost a game by 5, a game by 6, a game by 4, a game by 3, and a game by 7.
I'd say reversing Eli's season would probably leave us with a winning record. That doesn't mean we wouldn't get skullfarked in the opening round, but still.
This team sucks.
accuracy was never his strongsuit but at this point he's as inaccurate as any NFL QB I can remember.
But to answer your earlier question, there have been years where I think he did kill any chance. His 25 INT season for sure. 2007 he had an amazing playoff run but no chance we even get to that point without Spags and that defense. That was another 20 INT year.
This terrible team has lost a game by 5, a game by 6, a game by 4, a game by 3, and a game by 7.
I'd say reversing Eli's season would probably leave us with a winning record. That doesn't mean we wouldn't get skullfarked in the opening round, but still.
Eli was awesome in 2011, he was in the MVP discussion at one point. Again- To expect Eli to play at this level every season just isn't realistic.
There was no way they were winning that game yesterday. Eli didn't throw the ball well, but they still got their asses handed to them.
Then he shouldn't be paid like he can.
Thank God for those magical Super Bowl runs because he's delivered exactly ONE season that actually lived up to expectations
The problem with what I've said above unfortunately is that it's only possible with Eli making less and he won't. When, in the history of the NFL, has a team depended so much on a 33 year old QB to "get his act together"?
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Eli was awesome in 2011, he was in the MVP discussion at one point. Again- To expect Eli to play at this level every season just isn't realistic.
Then he shouldn't be paid like he can.
I agree 100%. No doubt. But's that's not our problem, it's not your money. Guess what? When you win 2 Super Bowls, you get paid. I'm not worried about his contract...They will work it out.
Thank God for those magical Super Bowl runs because he's delivered exactly ONE season that actually lived up to expectations
So winning 2 Super Bowls wasn't "the expectation"???
What is the expectation? That he just put up good #'s.....All due respect, that's just a dumb statement.
He has only delivered in one season since the mega deal: 2011.
It isn't a dumb statement.
It is a stupid statement-You do realize that you are saying that a guy who gave us 2 Super Bowl MVPs, and will retire with all Giants passing records..."hasn't met expectation"
That's just crazy talk.
But, he won 2 SBs (both in an amazing fashion) and that's what matters.
Who are these "great QBs" that are great when they aren't surrounded by talent?
You think our system currently ranks up there with the top systems? I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just saying this system currently sucks.
And we also overrate talent....Nicks has never played a full season, and looks to be toast. How bout' all those great TEs we have had!!! And RB talent!!!
Eli is sucking hard right now, but to act like he has Calvin Johnson, Jimmy Graham, & Shady McCoy is just plain wrong.
-His RB is the SAVIOR: Andre Brown!!! AND Peyton Hillis!
-His TE is Brandon Myers.
-Nicks is done. Cruz is shutdown, and Randle "Can't figure it out"
There is a talent deficiency on this offense.
Jeremy Shockey.
Plaxico Burress.
Amani Toomer.
Steve Smith.
Jacobs, Ward, and Bradshaw
Jacobs and Bradshaw (you know, two guys that rushed for 1000yds in the same season)
(and of course you've already mentioned Cruz and Nicks in 2011)
Not to mention the fantastic offensive line of DD, Richie, O'Hara, Snee, and KMac...
But he's never had Gates or Tomlinson, so he never had great talent around him.
Get the fuck out of here.
What Cam said. Eli has always been surrounded with talent. You do have a point though about our system. It does suck so much that chances are plenty of other QB's with great arms would be much, much worse due to the mental game. Are we in agreement that management won't dare ask Coughlin to fire his guys?
Methinks he is what he is, and that's all he's ever going to be. Maybe a new system will let him relax and become more consistent. I doubt it.
At this point, he has 2 years on a contract worth 20 mil each year. I wouldn't touch it (unless by some miracle he's willing to take a paycut). He's not giving up 40 mil, so an extension means pushing that 40 mil into the future, plus the signing bonus he'll likely get in 2 years. Let him prove next year that he deserves extending and mortgaging the future. The only other option is cutting him outright, and let's get real: no matter how much we bitch about Eli, there is no replacement in sight.
Burress was good, but again played on one foot for the majority of his career.
Smith Smith had 1 year.
Barber for his first two years
An aging Toomer
A banged up Nicks
Revolving Door at TE
The only prime player he has played with is Cruz, and even he has disappointed this year.
He has never had a Randy Moss, TO, Gonzo, Jimmy Graham, Wayne, Harrison, Gronk to work with. Even Rodgers had a great trio of Jennings, Driver, and Nelson to work with.
Lets not put our skill guys into HOF, potential HOF players just yet.
He's done it before. That's fantastic. But he is very bad at doing it with any kind of regularity.
this is from bob mcginn's preview of the giants vs. packers a few weeks ago. as i understand mcginn is a respected nfl journalist with credible sources and contacts:
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Manning is off to his poorest start since establishing himself in 2005, and some personnel men are attributing it to being shell-shocked in the pocket.
"He's just scared to death," one scout said. "I haven't been around a player that has just taken a turn from being so good to so bad so quick. He's absolutely killing them."
On Oct. 21, Vikings DE Jared Allen bull-rushed LT Will Beatty. When Beatty backed into Manning, Allen reached all the way around Beatty and grabbed Manning around the waist as best he could. Although no other rusher approached, Manning really didn't try to release from Allen's grasp before falling down for a sack.
"It was funny," said another scout. "He goes right through the tackle and Eli just kind of went in the fetal position. It was embarrassing. I've never seen that before."
Two months shy of his 33rd birthday, Manning has lost some of his modest ability to move away from the rush. He has taken a lot of hits, especially early in the season, and he appears more gun-shy than ever before.
"The Jared Allen sack, I never saw that in my life," one of the personnel men said. "That was the epitome of him this year. He just cowered and started moving toward Beatty. It was mind-boggling.
"He is terrible. Terrible. It started out with everybody making excuses, but the more you watch him play, it's him. It's bizarre. It's pathetic."
NFC Personnel People on Eli - ( New Window )
And that is true. But what Qb would flourish, Under the circumstances, I just mentioned ?
How about when Gruden defended Eli when he showed how the system was killing the Giants because Eli and the WR were not on the same page. Does he not count?
How about when Gruden defended Eli when he showed how the system was killing the Giants because Eli and the WR were not on the same page. Does he not count?
No, he doesn't, because he defends almost every quarterback to an irrational level - he's almost as bad as you are with Eli.
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2012: 12th best QB
2013: 27th best QB
I have no idea how he has fallen so fast, but he is the Franchise and we need to get him back on track.
Good news is, he has an extremely high ceiling as a player. Bad news is, he is rarely performing at that ceiling and he has a very low floor for such a talented player. The difference between Eli's ceiling and his floor is the biggest gap in the entire NFL among QBs, without question.
He just had an amazing season in 2011, the clutchest QB season in NFL history. Now just 2 years later he has turned into Rex Grossman? It's amazing how much variance there is to Eli's game.
He needs to play better next season. And I'm hoping he has a new OC to help him out.
He does, but he's a joke of an announcer. Complete joke.
And many others I am sure of too :)
Lets not put our skill guys into HOF, potential HOF players just yet.
Is fucking idiotic. Jennings, Driver, Nelson, Gronk, and Graham arent going to the HOF anytime soon, if at all.
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He has never had a Randy Moss, TO, Gonzo, Jimmy Graham, Wayne, Harrison, Gronk to work with. Even Rodgers had a great trio of Jennings, Driver, and Nelson to work with.
Lets not put our skill guys into HOF, potential HOF players just yet.
Is fucking idiotic. Jennings, Driver, Nelson, Gronk, and Graham arent going to the HOF anytime soon, if at all.
Why did you remove the players who are going to the HOF out? You don't think Jimmy Graham is a HOF type talent? Gronk?
Hell, look at Elway, Favre, Marino, Brady, Peyton, Big Ben (ugh!), and plenty of others.
Even lower tiered guys that aren't HOF QB's...Trent Green, Rich Gannon, Fucking McNabb!
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He has never had a Randy Moss, TO, Gonzo, Jimmy Graham, Wayne, Harrison, Gronk to work with. Even Rodgers had a great trio of Jennings, Driver, and Nelson to work with.
Lets not put our skill guys into HOF, potential HOF players just yet.
Is fucking idiotic. Jennings, Driver, Nelson, Gronk, and Graham arent going to the HOF anytime soon, if at all.
I thought I separated the Packers WRs from the others I mentioned.
It is amazing though, last year after the Bowns game people on BBI talked about him being a MVP candidate, but since halftime in SF last year he's been off.