Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

Kirwan suggests O-formations have become predictable

Racer : 12/13/2013 4:19 pm
Caller asked him if option routes were heart of what's killing the passing game.

PK responded with the comment that Nicks and Cruz, and to an extent Randle, have operated successfully in this scheme. 2 things to investigate with regard to so many sacks and INTs.

First, study the protections and clear or condemn the O-Line. He suspects that this is the heart of the problem, but also said he was speaking to somebody inside recently and that person wasn't ready to put it all on the O-Line.

Second, scout the offensive formations. Maybe defenses are wired-in and not being challenged by the offense any longer, allowing them to jump these routes. "It's just become old."

We all know the O-Line has had issues from the beginning, but when guys with Kirwan's background and documented respect for TC and his staff start knocking an offense that won two superbowls, I'm inclined to give it a lot of weight.
In other news,  
PeterS : 12/13/2013 4:24 pm : link
Christopher Columbus discovers America.

Sorry - didn't mean to such a prick but why hasn't anyone posed this question to Giants? Coaches, management or ownership? Are they too caught up in JPP's back?
No worries...  
Racer : 12/13/2013 4:34 pm : link
..my expectation of people being total pricks around here is pretty high.

I know some people around here hold PK in pretty high regard, and I'm probably one of the few Giant fans that can still stand to listen to Sirius, so I thought I'd pass it on.
I'll pin it on the OL  
DavidinBMNY : 12/13/2013 4:36 pm : link
With more time, the actual options on routes can develop.

Replace Nicks with someone who has his old explosiveness get a top Center to anchor the interior of the OL and let's see what happens.

I hope we have a chance at Alex Mack.
I don't think it takes a football expert to see that  
Lionhart28 : 12/13/2013 5:27 pm : link
there is a complete and utter lack of creativity on offense but it's no one thing. Line play is bad, QB has been mediocre to poor, Nicks is a shadow of his former self. Myers falls down immediately after the catch. These in tandem with an unimaginative offense that rarely adjusts (took until what, week 7 or 8 to go to the short passing game) make for a bad season.
So when we say it here  
nomad1986 : 12/13/2013 5:52 pm : link
we're idiots who don't know the difference between the run and shoot and the WCO. But when professionals say the team is too easy to defend, too easy scheme against and too predictable, basically stale it's a revelation? Guess what the defense and special teams are in the exact same boat. The Giants have been doing the same things for 10 years. Teams have 10 years worth of film on them and they're getting killed before the game even kicks off. Why do you think they get the crap kicked out of them in the 1st quarter so much? This coaching staffing is done. It's over. It's only going to get worse. The sooner there's a change the better.
The entire Offense is predictable  
jeff57 : 12/13/2013 5:53 pm : link
Get rid of Gilbride.
I've Been Suspecting This (Predictability)  
Trainmaster : 12/13/2013 5:54 pm : link
interesting that an "expert" has a similar thought.

"What have you done for me lately." is a tired old phrase, but I think it applies to the Giants. If many of us, who don't get paid to analyze tendencies of other teams, can frequently guess the Giants' play calls, how easy must it be for someone who's job it is to report on a team's tendencies?

Regardless of whether the Giants' offense was "a two time Super Bowl winner", defensive coordinators and defensive players adapt.

I think this is major reason (not the only one or maybe not even the most important one) why the Giants are 5-8 versus 8-5.

this offense is predictable....  
damdevs : 12/13/2013 6:14 pm : link
We talked about it back in the beginning part of the season when we lost to Carolina.

Many posters have eluded to the fact that we've been running the same O for the last 9 years with very few wrinkles thrown in there too mix things up.

I would love to see Eli in a new offense and see what he can do, especially when he knows EXACTLY what routes the wrs are going to run.
.  
MOOPS : 12/13/2013 6:19 pm : link






"We need a bigger tree!!!!!"
points 1 and 2 are prob  
mdc1 : 12/13/2013 6:47 pm : link
folks have been talking about 2 for years, 1 basically sealed it,
it's what BBI has been saying all along,  
SHO'NUFF : 12/13/2013 7:17 pm : link
but we're all idiots according to Homer, Retro, FMiC and Eric.

add Pat Kirwan to the list of idiots, I guess.
problem is....  
damdevs : 12/13/2013 8:28 pm : link
Coaches have egos and they think that their system is perfect. This is especially true with Gilbride. The arrogance that they've shown over the years makes that pretty obvious.

That said, we've got no clue how Mara will react at the end of the season.
Hmmm.. Ya think??  
prdave73 : 12/13/2013 9:06 pm : link
Not Gilbride? predictable? I really hope this guy gets fired and we hire someone to do what Whinenhunt has done with Phillips Rivers..
sorry  
prdave73 : 12/13/2013 9:07 pm : link
Whisenhunt.
Maybe no one has asked the question  
HomerJones45 : 12/13/2013 9:22 pm : link
because the question is laughable- well except for gullible fools who are looking to validate some goofball view of the world.

Some of us have been talking about the predictability for a long time.  
EricJ (formerly Tyleraimee) : 12/13/2013 9:34 pm : link
and there is more to it than what Kirwan said. We tip our hands too often simply with our formations and even our player substitutions.

Remember when Sinorice Moss came to the Giants? In his first year, if he came in the game it was a WR screen to him ON THAT PLAY. Then he would run off the field. So, the defense knew the play. They would jump his route consistently. Looked like it was his fault but shit the defense knew the play!

This year, you see Andre Brown lining up in different places in the backfield. Just watch his location before the snap and see whether we run or pass. You will see that he is also tipping our hand especially on 3rd down.

This next comment is just about scheme and not predictability. 3rd or 4th and short. Why on earth would we lineup with the heavy package adding more bodies to the line of scrimmage? our offensive line cannot push a pile when the LBs and safeties are playing off of the line. We do not have an O line that will push the pile back even when the defense knows we are running. So, why are we not spreading the field every time we are in that short yardage situation? At least it gives the defense something to think about....having our WRs still on the field. Do you think the defense will respect the pass having 3 of our shitty TEs on the field? Hell no... they are just keying on the run.

Finally... maybe our O Line would have a little bit more of a chance if Eli was not waiting until the clock was about to hit zero before the ball is snapped. The defense is actually watching the play clock and using that to jump the play. Plus, it also gives the defenses time to survey our offense and have them adjust to what they are seeing from us. Why the fuck our coaches have not fixed this over the years is the worlds biggest mystery.
We should go 5 wides  
HomerJones45 : 12/13/2013 9:57 pm : link
and run Eli. That will sure fool them.

And on passing downs, we should have a full house backfield and two tight ends and throw deep to Connor. The defense will never guess that.

or put Cruz at halfback and have him run the dive.

Congrats, you guys are really bringing the high heat of stupid.
Seems reasonable.  
bceagle05 : 12/13/2013 10:00 pm : link
It's unfortunate that conversations like this inevitably turn into a trip down Memory Lane, where we re-live all the highlights we've had over the years on offense. It can be true that (A) Gilbride is a good coach and (B) the system is a bit stale. Certain Coughlin/Gilbride loyalists refuse to accept that.
All you need is a functioning brain  
HomerJones45 : 12/13/2013 10:46 pm : link
these people are professionals; it is their full time job to study each other 350 days a year. No matter what you come up with, it's "stale" after 4 or 5 games. Hell, in 1961 Red Hickey of the 49'rs invented a whole new system, the shotgun(what we call the shotgun today is scratching the surface of that offense). In an era when coaching staffs were not as large or specialized as today, the offense lasted 6 games before it was blown apart. It was abandoned the following year.

You guys have seen this yourselves. Remember the wildcat? How often do you see the wildcat now?

Professional coaches know that they aren't going to fool each other, at least not more than a few games, and that every system is "stale" after a few games. They know that the game comes down to execution and personnel. Desperate fans ignore these aspects and think some magic plan will make everything better.

You want to know what happened to the passing game? The qb stunk, the receivers other than Cruz are either slow on the uptake, not putting out much effort or not very good, the o-line has gone through 3 centers and is playing a rookie and one guy who was supposed to be on the bench.

You want to improve the passing game? The qb needs to put his big boy pants on, realize he's going to get hit and stand in and consistently make good decisions and accurate throws, the o-line needs a steady center and another player so their isn't pressure up the middle and the qb has a pocket to step up in, and the receiving corp needs an overhaul.

There's no magic plan for that. It's a lot of hard work which is not as exciting to fans as coming up with some magic plan that will instantly cure all ills.
this is the one area we (and other big market teams) should  
jsboston : 12/13/2013 11:04 pm : link
have an advantage. there is no cap for what you spend on scouts, AV guys, software, travel, etc. this should be our advantage, but sadly it's a negative.

we can pay extra to be pepared, lil bill is known to be a XOS system power user, setting the tone.

lets leverage our advanage.

me, i thknki'llbe atkmart shoppingthadmamlevinecollectionsunday.

#IT'SNOTOVERYET
#ANDIFITISWEAREJUST A FEWPIECESAWAY
at this point, I'm fully convinced Homer is  
SHO'NUFF : 12/13/2013 11:40 pm : link
a relative of Gilbride, if not Gilbride himself.
RE: So when we say it here  
Racer : 12/13/2013 11:42 pm : link
In comment 11393528 nomad1986 said:
Quote:
we're idiots who don't know the difference between the run and shoot and the WCO. But when professionals say the team is too easy to defend, too easy scheme against and too predictable, basically stale it's a revelation?


News-flash. Listen to Sirius for a week and you'll hear the fans of every team other than the Seahawks and Saints complain about playcalling and predictability. There's no distinction in fan-dom, Nomad.

A couple of times a year I respond to one of Eric's posts, telling him not to be put off by the fact that there are people who aren't stupid, people who aren't fucking pricks, and people who know exactly what they don't know about football, and the intersection of those groups isn't what BBI is built on, so don't give me the "you people amaze me" shit.

The revelation would be posts like yours and the game threads going away.
apparently coaches can do no wrong in BBI  
SHO'NUFF : 12/13/2013 11:44 pm : link
yet multiple coaching staffs get fired every single year.
So we'll just get Gilbride  
bceagle05 : 12/14/2013 12:20 am : link
another offensive line stocked with Pro Bowlers, a couple more talented receivers, running backs and tight ends, and then maybe we'll get back to scoring some points.

I'm not even advocating a change, but I find it hilarious that some people think Gilbride is the only coach who could've succeeded with the personnel he's had to work with here.

And another question: Why do our rookie receivers (with the exception of Steve Smith) have to redshirt a year here, when guys like Stills in New Orleans and Allen in San Diego can hit the ground running?
RE: So we'll just get Gilbride  
drkenneth : 12/14/2013 12:31 am : link
In comment 11393755 bceagle05 said:
Quote:
another offensive line stocked with Pro Bowlers, a couple more talented receivers, running backs and tight ends, and then maybe we'll get back to scoring some points.

I'm not even advocating a change, but I find it hilarious that some people think Gilbride is the only coach who could've succeeded with the personnel he's had to work with here.

And another question: Why do our rookie receivers (with the exception of Steve Smith) have to redshirt a year here, when guys like Stills in New Orleans and Allen in San Diego can hit the ground running?


Agree 100% and this seems to be a wasteland for TEs as well. I have no clue how they let Bennett leave.
RE: RE: So we'll just get Gilbride  
endwerc : 12/14/2013 12:36 am : link
In comment 11393757 drkenneth said:
Quote:

Agree 100% and this seems to be a wasteland for TEs as well. I have no clue how they let Bennett leave.


Because we paid Snee and Baas $13M to do nothing.
Combine this with the fact that everyone knows whether it is a run or  
ZogZerg : 12/14/2013 9:07 am : link
pass play and you have a suckass offense where the QB is getting killed and becoming erratic.
Gilbride is a unmitigated  
sexymoves : 12/14/2013 9:58 am : link
Disaster, why so many on BBI defend him is beyond comprehension. His offense has been at the bottom of the league for the last 2 years. We turn the ball over more than any other team in the NFL and yet we have star players at skill positions and proven veterans on the o-line. Not to mention he has been run out of every other place he coached at for the same reasons, Houston , Pittsburgh, Buffalo, San Diago. He owes his career to TC.
RE: Maybe no one has asked the question  
LauderdaleMatty : 12/14/2013 10:20 am : link
In comment 11393650 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
because the question is laughable- well except for gullible fools who are looking to validate some goofball view of the world.


Well thank God you are here to invalidate Kirwan. Seriously its not like he has all your experience and knowledge to back up his points.

Which team were you a personal guy for? And its not like he has your extensive connections within the NFL You should call Pat and offer your analysis and info as I'm sure a guy with your vast credentials would be invaluable for a guy like him who really hasn't put the time in to put our thoughts on football.
Seriuos questiom  
Scuzzlebutt : 12/14/2013 10:42 am : link
Why is the offense so easy for the defense to predict after studying for less than a week and yet so difficult for a young WR to grasp after spending two full training camps with the team?

I respect Kirwan and maybe there is an argument to be made here, but the two biggest criticisms of the Giants O seem to contradict one another.
When you choose to give as many  
Chris L. : 12/14/2013 10:59 am : link
snaps to Bear Pascoe as you give to Ruben Randle something is very wrong with the system you are running. We have the perfect personnel to run a spread type offense. With Eli, Nicks, Cruz, Randle and Wilson we should have seen WAY more of that. Instead Killdrive tries to force players into HIS outdated scheme. Can you imagine what New Orleans would be able to do with Wilson? Good coaches play to the strengths of their personnel. We try to force our players to play in a particular scheme whether that plays to their strengths or not.
Personally I think the org  
mdc1 : 12/14/2013 12:57 pm : link
is scared of change and think they have it good with a franchise QB and coach that got them 2 rings and as long as they are making money they will come up with the usual excuses for mediocrity in between. Just wait till we run down mediocrity lane and then they leave and the fun really starts.
RE: When you choose to give as many  
dcable : 12/14/2013 5:21 pm : link
In comment 11393953 Chris L. said:
Quote:
snaps to Bear Pascoe as you give to Ruben Randle something is very wrong with the system you are running. We have the perfect personnel to run a spread type offense. With Eli, Nicks, Cruz, Randle and Wilson we should have seen WAY more of that. Instead Killdrive tries to force players into HIS outdated scheme. Can you imagine what New Orleans would be able to do with Wilson? Good coaches play to the strengths of their personnel. We try to force our players to play in a particular scheme whether that plays to their strengths or not.

Your exactly right. The coaches dont want any mistakes, so they bench the rookies. They s/b more concerned about making plays. They benched Wilson at beginning of season for his 2 fumbles in one game. The Giants need a new coaching staff
Vince Lombardi ran the same plays over and over again.  
idinkido : 12/14/2013 7:44 pm : link
But you don't see that today. Lombardi had talent and his players executed the schemes perfectly. His players were more afraid of him than their opponents. Of course, it was in an era when players had training camps that had hitting and 2 a days.
I have told my group that sees the games together about how defenses know our offense better than our receivers, witnessing our receivers almost colliding together and a DB in perfect position to intercept or break up the play. Gilbride takes too much time getting the call into Eli and Eli often exhausts the play clock to where the DL can tee off at him without worrying about being offsides. Our OL is terrible, we may as well call Nicks as Hicks, because he is not himself. Playing JPP too early was also a disaster. I would continue to go on but I feel a sob is about to come on and real men don't cry.
SHO'NUFF -  
Exit 172 : 12/14/2013 9:04 pm : link
Nobody around here takes Gene (HJ45) seriously. His football opinions are about as valuable as mgorga's political opinions.
So...  
Bill E : 12/14/2013 9:16 pm : link
...the offense is too complicated for the wide receivers, and too predictable for opposing defenses?
Really?

How do you suggest they fix that?
Back to the Corner