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The state of the Giants and whos to blame?

bigblue1124 : 12/14/2013 10:00 am
I would like to start by saying I am not a arm chair coach or GM like many here that thinks firing the coaching staff will fix everything. I used to be but as the years have passed I have become at least I like to think so a more rational thinker and not jump the gun at the moment.

After reviewing this season as dismal as it has been to date and also taking into consideration the injury bug this team has had all year. I think the blame should lie on Reese and his complete failure to draft quality contributors for this team. I am wondering how much input TC has in regards to drafting players for this team? I am sure he has some input but with JRs first player available mindset I believe TCs wants get put aside.

And then you have the BBI mantra IN REESE WE TRUST standpoint. It has been posted and discussed but the complete failure in draft picks is staggering. Other than 2007 he has been a complete failure in the draft with the exception being first round talent.

His first year he inherited one of the best OLs in the NFL and has since made it a laughing stock and turn style to the QB.
The weakest point in our defense being LBer and he continues to ignore it and fill it with retreads via FA.
(Side note I pray they resign Beason but have a feeling JR will fuck that up also)
I guess this is my sort of rant but IMO if anyone goes this year it should be Reese. Other than a few first round picks he has failed this organization miserably.
TC and crew should remain other than Quinn he just sucks.
I am interested to hear your thoughts so flame away.
Blame for what?  
HomerJones45 : 12/14/2013 10:18 am : link
9 years of .500 or better ball and two championships?

How close these teams are to one another in the salary cap era that a bounce here or there, an officials call, a hot qb or a cheap rookie who makes all-pro can make or break your season?

I don't think fans have any appreciation for just how difficult this all is and how extraordinary it was to win two championships in 5 years.
I would not be unhappy  
Bill in UT : 12/14/2013 10:24 am : link
with an overhaul of both FO and coaching, and obviously players. Reese's office, as I see it has 3 main responsibilities- evaluating/drafting college players, evaluating/signing FAs, and contracts/cap management. The clubs drafting failures have been discussed ad nauseum here. He has signed a few helpful free agents this year, but all the signings came under duress due to injuries. Had the starters not gone down, Beason, Conner and Hillis almost certainly would not be on the team. And our contracts for veteran players are absolutely killing us. All of this falls on either Reese directly or on the people he's hired to do those jobs. I'll pass on discussing the coaching situation and leave that for others, lol.
TMS : 12/14/2013 10:32 am : link
Good post. Agree completely. Reese and his hire Ross are the problem. They should not be selecting talent in the draft for this team any longer. They have managed to take us from the top, to near the bottom because of the lack of replacement talent they provided, and the number of draft choices that should have never been drafted for this team.
I have to agree  
Giants : 12/14/2013 10:34 am : link
Fans don't get how hard it is to win two championships in 5 years. My biggest problem is directed towards Reese. We have seen some very good things from him and at the same time some bad. How anyone watching the Giants didn't see this down fall in the OL coming? Nothing about it was quick or sudden. Diehl has been playing sub-par for few seasons. Snee hasn't been playing as well either. You knew he was coming off hip surgery which he put off.Allowing less healing time before the start of the season. With the question marks already on the OL for past few seasons. Brewer hadn't not been able to find a starting spot. So you had to know that was a problem. Not looking to see him fired but this mess does fall on him. He as a GM has to step-up this off-season
step up?  
Bill in UT : 12/14/2013 10:38 am : link
That seems to imply he hasn't been doing all that he's capable of until now. I don't see any reason to think that. What he's been is what he is.
Buck Dharma : 12/14/2013 10:45 am : link
badly misjudged the talent level of the team. He put a Super Bowl countdown clock in the locker room and trades up in the 4th round to take a QB who'll likely never take a meaningful snap as a NYG.
There seems to be two sets of feelings here on BBI.  
TheDarkKnight : 12/14/2013 10:48 am : link
You have the people that like you are frustrated & believe there needs to be change in the front office or coaching staff. And then you have the people that tell you to be satisfied with the two super bowl victories & to relax because other teams wish they had that success. I fall in the middle somewhere. I have been a diehard Giants fan for as long as I remember & those victories over the Patriots will go down as two of the most amazing post seasons I will ever see. But with that being said the inconsistency of this team is very frustrating. Every year we are up against the cap & can't seem to improve the team thru free agency. We have to settle for the bargain bin signings like Dan Connor. This makes the draft extremely important to this team. But your right about the drafting of Reese. It should be questioned. The evidence is there for all to see. At the end of last season it was clear that this team had issues on the oline, linebackers & secondary. On top of that it was clear that the pass rush which was a strength of this team was getting older. What did Reese do to truly improve this team from 2012. They drafted Pugh but what happened to the don't draft for need argument? Other than him there was no attention paid to the oline. Linebacking has been an absolute joke & it took a trade six weeks into the season to address that issue. We lost Osi but didn't do anything for the pass rush except draft Moore who can't seem to get in the rotation. The secondary has actually been a lot better this season & at times has been a pleasant surprise. I am not sure who is to blame in all of this but my guess is that it can be pointed at everyone. I really don't think Reese will be going anywhere. They will give him this off season to turn this thing around. I do believe that this team may need some new voices on the coaching staff who bring creativity. Fewell is a goner. I don't see how he gets another shot with this defense. Gilbride is a good coach but it's time for something new. So now the question will be can Coughlin come back knowing he has to bring in new coordinators? I love Coughlin. The man is a great leader of men who will go down as one of the greatest head coaches in Giants history but I wonder if it's time for a change. I certainly won't compare Coughlin with Norv Turner but you can't deny how much better San Diego is with their new staff. The creativity of Whisenhunt as the OC has been a huge reason for Rivers success & you have to wonder how Eli would look with somebody new calling the plays.
Giants : 12/14/2013 10:52 am : link
as I pointed-out. There was nothing quick or sudden about the down fall of the OL. He has to get this OL fixed. Hopefully he gets how badly he misjudged the talent on this OL
Teams get old  
Dry Lightning : 12/14/2013 10:55 am : link
it just happens. The Giants had a great run. Runs end. Now it is time to rebuild. Other than at QB this team is unsettled at EVERY position group. That has not happened for many years. We probably will win between 2 and 5 games next year, and the team will be even worse than this version. But from that comes high picks and a chance to rebuild. I have a hunch that Coughlin is going to retire at the end of this year. I think it is the right time for him, and the right time for the team.
Noway is TC  
Giants : 12/14/2013 11:05 am : link
out of here. He will be back. Reese has had some bad drafts. I know some will say why would anyone think this off season he is going to do any better. I know I have nothing hard to go on. I just have a feeling this season was eye opener to him about the talent on this team. How badly he misjudged the OL and LB position. Yes its more than just those two positions but that is where he was way off the mark
Named Later : 12/14/2013 11:09 am : link
If you guys are looking for Jerry Reese to get fired, you're setting yourself up for disappointment. He's going nowhere -- that's just not how the Giants do things. And Marc Ross is JR's boy. They are in this together. About the best you can hope for this off-season is a shuffle of the lower rungs of the Scouting Dept. Maybe a change in philosophy on Draft day to minimize these misses.

I don't think Coughlin is walking away either. Again, best you can hope for is a change at the coordinator level. And be careful what you wish for, because if Gilbride is shown the door at 62.....we're liable to end up with Kevin Gilbride Jr calling the same plays as his Dad.

I just look wistfully at the way the CAR & SD offenses have prospered with a change at OC.
Bill in UT : 12/14/2013 11:15 am : link
My concern about the people in the FO is that each of us has his own level of talents and abilities. Brandon Myers can be playing at 100% and still not be Gronkowski. I have no reason to believe that both Reese and Ross, who are probably both talented and honorable people, are not, and have not been playing at 100%. They just may not have the ability to rise any higher.
reese is to blame  
DavidinBMNY : 12/14/2013 11:28 am : link
1) he gambled with snee and bass.
2) gambled at rb
3) deferred to couglins desire to keep webster around and diehl

Reese can correct these issues. I don't think he should be fired but he is accountable.

Next year, Bass, Snee, Diehl and Webster all have to go. How much better wouls you fell if brewer and mosley started all year, had gone through growing pains, and were showing signs of being good for next year.

I don't fault resse for the draft picks other then chronically missing on lbers..
I'm so tired of  
MassGman : 12/14/2013 11:53 am : link
Hearing about the past. How long will we hear about 2 Super Bowl victories. Yes they did their job and won 2 Super Bowls. If they suck for the next 2 years will you keep talking about them?The sign of a good leadership is when you can transition players and still be a decent team. T.C, JR, PF, Gilbride have all failed. Please stop talking about how T.C and company all have a pass because of 2 past Super Bowls. Even Eli has his head up his ass this year. All we hear about is how bad his offensive line is. Did you know Brady's been sacked and hit more than Eli and he seems to be playing pretty well
whos to blame?  
Gross Blau Oberst : 12/14/2013 11:55 am : link
I absolutely despise that attitude and approach to problem solving.

How about figuring out what is not working and creating solutions to fix it now, and preventing recurrence?

Way too much focus on finger pointing and placing blame than on solving the problem.

Absolutely sickening.

How about figuring out what is not working and creating solutions  
Bill in UT : 12/14/2013 12:16 pm : link
Isn't that what the guys we're talking about are being paid to do? I wonder how many organizations entrust the people who screwed thing up to be the same people to fix them? Other than the government, of course :)
Look at where we draft every year.  
chops : 12/14/2013 12:17 pm : link
Drafting # 19 - # 32 limits the crop of talent.

Does it matter?
When I look at some  
Fast Eddie : 12/14/2013 12:20 pm : link
of the players that Reese has supplied to TC and were cut like Cam Wake, I wonder just how good TC is as a talent evaluator? McCants is starting and he couldn't get a sniff here. Many more I can't recall. Can't put all the blame on Reese. I blame a general lack of coordination between the FO and the head coach/coordinators myself.
BOTH the front office AND the coaching staff are major probem areas.  
Red Dog : 12/14/2013 12:23 pm : link
Both need a thorough overhaul, and they need it immediately after THIS season.

IF ownership waits another year on either one of these areas, all the team will be doing next year is competing for the first draft choice in the 2015 draft, and further extending the time required to get this team back to serious contention for another title. This team has declined so far already that they are probably looking at two to three years to get back into serious contention for another title right now.

Ownership can't screw around with this. Eli has some good years left, but if they don't get a good overhaul done this off-season, he will be at the end of his career before they have a competitive team around him again, IF they ever have a competitive team around him again.
Reese's Biggest Faults  
Samiam : 12/14/2013 12:36 pm : link
I mean a good GM should be able to know in advance who will get injured especially career ending injuries and just not sign or draft these players. He should have known that Kenny Phillips career as close to an All Pro Safety would end early so he'd have to overpay to get Rolle. He should have known that Chad Jones was a horrible driver and looked elsewhere for a safety in the draft. He should know that Baas who never had a history of injuries would become a walking definition of injury prone. He should have known that Snee would hurt the other hip after coming back from injury. He really should have known that Ballard would have blown his knee out and should have known that Beckam and Sintim would have career ending injuries on in their career. After all, if a player hasn't made it big early in their careers, it's hopeless.

I'm sure I'm missing others (David Wilson) but shouldn't a good GM be able to know whose career will be ended early by injury and not draft or sign these guys?
should rename the team to  
mdc1 : 12/14/2013 12:51 pm : link
NY Moldy Figs - outdated players
Hope for the best, plan for the worst  
Bill in UT : 12/14/2013 1:14 pm : link
and take what comes. A good GM should have backups on the roster with enough talent that when the unexpected happens to a starter there is someone to plug in without the team going to shit
Samiam : 12/14/2013 1:17 pm : link
I guess you would say that a good GM should never have a bad season. If Reese should go, I suppose then that the GMs of the Steelers, Packers, Falcons should also be fired.
"A"bad season?  
Bill in UT : 12/14/2013 1:21 pm : link
Most of our current backups/lousy starters are guys drafted 2-3 years ago. And they're on the team replacing the lousy picks made before them
Samiam : 12/14/2013 1:26 pm : link
it is exactly that. This is a bad season and Reese has some culpability as does Coughlin and the coaches and the players. But, it's the first really bad season under Reese's management. I have to add that a 10-6 record and not making the playoffs is not a bad season in my mind. It's not a good season but I distinguish between that and this season.
Who cares!?!?  
TC : 12/14/2013 1:59 pm : link
This ain't a soap opera! The only question that interests me is how can the Giants be made better? Enough of the good guys, bad guys cr*p that stokes the BS hype that passes for sports journalism.

It is childish to suggest that decisions about the Giants' future should in ANY way be made to reward or punish individuals. The only question is, what will allow the Giants to better move forward?

Lousy backups  
Bill in UT : 12/14/2013 2:00 pm : link
And I mean that as a double entendre because this post is more about backup systems than players. As I see it we have a circle of mediocrity that starts in the FO, goes through the coaching staff and comes back to the FO

1- The level of scouting/talent evaluation is not what it needs to be. We are not getting enough quality personnel to keep the team playing at the high level all of want

2- Coaching- the coaching staff has not shown the ability to coach these players up in a timely manner, if at all

3-Offensive and defensive systems- we don't have systems that can hide the players' deficiencies. In fact we have systems that accentuate them

4- When we see we're short of talent or someone goes down, because of poor cap management we don't have the money to bring in decent replacements

There are no safety nets in this organizations. One error is just compounded all the way down the line. JMO
The 2 super bowls were unbelievable and nobody can take that away  
95cobraguy : 12/14/2013 2:03 pm : link
But this team has had way too many meltdowns to keep going the way it is. The team packed it in the last 2 weeks of 2009, blew a 28 point 4th quarter lead against the eagles in 2010 which would've basically clinched us the division and got clobbered the following week against GB. They were treading water the whole season in 2011 until christmas eve and then went on a tremendous run. blew a 3 game lead in 2012 to the dysfunction known as the redskins by getting destroyed by the bengals, falcons and ravens. This year has been a disaster from a-z. At what point do things start to change? And i'm not talking about firing coughlin or benching eli, but how about a different offensive philosophy, what about different defensive schemes? Something has to change.
Rebuilding is the state of the Giants  
Great White Ghost : 12/14/2013 2:20 pm : link
Time is to blame. It's really that simple.
Samiam : 12/14/2013 2:39 pm : link
You're just repeating the same things. Everyone is saying that Reese had a bad year. Everyone is saying that Coughlin and the coaching staff had a bad year. Everyone is saying that most every player on the team had bad years. I guess I'm back to my original question. If you want to Reese gone, would you want to see the GMs of the Steelers, Packers, and Falcons get fired as well. Do you fire a GM off of one bad year?

By the way, the Giants have made CAP mistakes, no question about it. But, it is alot harder to fix a mistake when you have a franchise QB paid like a franchise QB which sort of lines up with the problems that the Steelers, Packers and Falcons have as well. See what happens to CAP management of the Seahawks, 49ers even the Panthers when their QBs get ready for the mega contracts.
Bill in UT : 12/14/2013 2:47 pm : link
Apparently, I haven't been clear. I'm saying the team has had 5 mediocre years, not one, (yes, I know we won a SB) because the FO and coaching staff have had 5 mediocre years. If you want to continue forward with the status quo hoping that we can win another SB following a 9-7 season, I'd advise you not to stand under any trees where lightning has already struck. OTOH, the postman may return to your door, lol.
Nassib instead of Kashim Greene was a huge blunder  
gtt350 : 12/14/2013 3:27 pm : link
watching Nassib in training camp was brutal
Giant fans  
mikepaz56 : 12/14/2013 3:43 pm : link
Should be happy with Reese and 2 Super Bowls in 5 years. Most of you may not remember the lean years of the late 60 s and all of the 70s. Terrible drafting in those two decades should make everyone appreciate reese
Assigning blame is fruitless  
JonC : 12/14/2013 3:44 pm : link
just identify what needs to be fixed and get crackin'.
Samiam : 12/14/2013 3:50 pm : link
I dont have a response. If you think the Giants have been mediocre during the Reese years, we just have to disagree. I would ask what teams do you think have been better during the period? And, do you think that some teams that have had better regular season records would trade to have the SB wins (like an Atlanta or SF or NO or not?
blue42 : 12/14/2013 3:56 pm : link
and Beckum were bad picks even if healthy.
The State of the Giants centers around Eli mostly...  
Jimmy Googs : 12/14/2013 4:00 pm : link
We bash Reese and Coughlin when things don't go our way but I think it is really all about Eli. This isn't to blame Eli, but he is the real difference maker in the team's results.

Reese/Coughlin have built a team that can "win games", but I would say they have fallen short over the past 5 years in building a consistently winning team. And that is seen by the fact that we typically hover around a .500 record.

When we have a hot Eli Manning, this team that can "win games" actually becomes playoff/SB material. When we have an average or below average Eli playing, this team really just wins as much as it loses.

This season is really the first team in a while that doesn't win as much as it loses, and I believe its because Eli is having his worst year in a while. In the past, his play could overcome a bad OL, or no running game, or a porous defense. This year he isn't overcoming any of the team's other deficiencies when they arise.

The real State of the Giants...its on Eli...and I hope he plays better next year.
It's all in the scouting  
jintzz : 12/14/2013 4:14 pm : link
Take Seattle when their no#1 starter goes down their back up is just as good ,sometimes their 3rd back up is just as good,this from 5th ,7th and FA rounds,great GM,Coach,and scouts
It could be argued that a team that can only win . . . .  
TC : 12/14/2013 4:51 pm : link
when Eli "wins the game" isn't a very good team.

The 2013 Giants didn't look like a very good team in preseason, and proved to be just that. It's not just that the Giants have a poor record, but they've consistently played poorly. They've struggled to win games against other poor teams and have gotten blown out by good ones.

The Giants' problems are systemic, and tinkering around the edges is akin to rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. At best, it can only delay the inevitable.
RE: Sintim  
BMac : 12/14/2013 4:53 pm : link
In comment 11394164 blue42 said:
and Beckum were bad picks even if healthy.

...Are you serious with this, or just trolling? If you're not trolling, you have a lot to be sorrowful about.
Its never one persons success when they win  
Blue Blood : 12/14/2013 5:08 pm : link
and its never one persons failure when they dont..
Winning A Super Bowl in 2011  
JoefromPa : 12/14/2013 5:26 pm : link
with a team that lost 5 of 6 games at one point. They won a Super Bowl with a team that needed some retooling. That Championship bought a lot of collateral for a core of players, as it should have.

Those players got old and no longer justified the room on the salary cap they were taking up.

This team is run well, it will now do its retooling and be back among the elite soon.
More than anything else I think it's been injuries to key players  
BlueLou : 12/14/2013 5:29 pm : link
that have derailed the team. I doubt the Giants have had more injuries that the average for NFL clubs, but who has been injured and seen their career dissipate because of that has been brutal...

Steve Smith
Kenny Phillips
Terrel Thomas
Jonathan Goff
Ahmad Bradshaw
Chris Canty
Chad Jones
Corey Webster
Chris Snee
David Baas
David Wilson

Modest to better decent starters like Kevin Boss and Jake Ballard were big loses too, considering the TE situation this past year.

Even before any of them the (at least slightly before their time) loss/decline of Rich Seubert and Sean O'Hara...

Whether or not Clint Sintim or Travis Beckum could play in the NFL at starter level also was never really seen.

How on earth do you blame Reese or Ross for this?

RE: Its never one persons success when they win  
Jimmy Googs : 12/14/2013 5:51 pm : link
In comment 11394225 Blue Blood said:
and its never one persons failure when they dont..

I don't disagree, but we have enough team weaknesses that cancel out most if not all team strengths. #10...when he is on his game makes this team playoff caliber.
bitch, bitch, bitch  
Dylan fan : 12/14/2013 6:22 pm : link
A lot of you guys must be wonderful to live with. No wonder the divorce rate is so high. If the Giants didn't win the SB every year I'm sure you'd be bitching just as much as you are now.

Let's take Seattle, since this week they're the poster child for the best run franchise. They haven't won a SB in the last 8 years. The Giants have won 2 since then, but somehow Seattle is the model organization & Reese sucks. The Pats have much better than a "mediocre" record every year but they haven't won a SB since 2002 & the Giants beat them twice in the SB. Somehow a bunch of Neanderthals think the Pats are a much better run team & Reese sucks. Ask a Pats fan whether they'd be happier w/ what the Giants have done compared to the Pats since 2002.

Winning Super Bowls is what the NFL is all about. Anything short of that is in reality a LOSING SEASON no matter how good, bad or mediocre the 31 other teams' records are.

Instead of just bitching & ranting & raving about how bad Reese is, please tell me what Reese should have done to replace all the old, injured & subpar players Reese either kept or drafted. Please name who they should have drafted each round given who was available at the time the Giants picked each year & which players they should have cut & picked up in FA. Please also do that in order for the team to be under the salary cap every year as well. Then please guarantee that all those alternative players would stay healthy each year. Good luck with that unless you have a crystal ball, & if you had a crystal ball you wouldn't be wasting your time on BBI but would be constantly balling & hanging out w/ a super-model in the Bahamas w/ the billions of $ you'd be worth. I don't think any of that will happen if I were able to wait a million years. It's so much easier to just bitch incessantly.
bignygfan : 12/14/2013 7:37 pm : link
We have a poster named 'Giants'

I suppose someone would have that handle but it would have to be someone who signed on early. And someone wanting to be as direct as possible.

I have never seen you post before but I say well done, sir!
We have a poster named 'Giants'  
Bill in UT : 12/14/2013 7:40 pm : link
I wanted to post as Jimmy Googs but it was already taken. Whoulda thunk?
The 2010 team that finished 10-6 and missed the playoffs  
Reese's Pieces : 12/15/2013 12:55 am : link
was really better than many remember. There was that damn horrible second loss to the Eagles. And their schedule wasn't that hard.

But they probably got their best offensive line play of the Coughlin years. Allowed only 16 sacks versus 46 Giant sacks. Rushed for 137.5 yards per game against 101 by opponents. Passed for 242 yards per game against 209 by opponents. Bradshaw, Jacobs, Nicks, and Manningham all played well.

But what caught my eye was 15 Giant fumbles with 13 of them lost. It's a lot bad luck to lose that many fumbles.
RE: We have a poster named 'Giants'  
Jimmy Googs : 12/15/2013 5:19 am : link
In comment 11394441 Bill in UT said:
I wanted to post as Jimmy Googs but it was already taken. Whoulda thunk?

You have to be extremely insightful to post under my handle. Can you bring that type of game?
I think the entire FO and coaching staff  
fkap : 12/15/2013 8:28 am : link
are pretty much like our record over the last decade: some highs, some lows, overall slightly above mediocrity. Love the highs, but that doesn't excuse the rest, and past highs are no guarantee that they'll come back again. We're tilting further and further toward sub-mediocrity.

Reese is no where near as good as In Reese We Trust godhood status. Almost every aspect, FA/draft/cap, is mediocre, with some highs, some lows.

Complicating the whole mess is that the Maras are part of the FO as well, and must shoulder their share of the blame.

It's too simple to say 'forget the past. figure out the problems and fix them'. Obviously, the braintrust has had issues with figuring out problems and/or fixing them.

It's too simple to say 'what would you geniuses have done?'. If any of us had solutions, we'd be sitting in JR's chair. It's far easier to see where others have succeeded or failed.
Like may successful franchises in every sport,  
Ira : 12/15/2013 8:42 am : link
we've reached a point where we can no longer think of adding a few players to win it all. We need to rebuild. If the owners/front office don't realize this, we'll be in a difficult position for a long time. If they realize it now, it won't be so long.
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