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After reflecting on the state of the Giants...

Britt in VA : 12/16/2013 9:44 am
I've come to the conclusion that the best move to make is no move. Yes, there will be roster shake up, and there should be, but as far as the coaching staff goes, I think you stay the course (that is of course, if Tom Coughlin wants to come back).

The QB is going nowhere, nor is he going to take a paycut, so this thought does not pertain to the state of the quarterback position, other than how we will build around it.

I went back and looked through some articles and transcripts from when we hired TC back in 2004.

Quote:
After Tom Coughlin put his name on a four-year, approximately $12 million contract early last night, he left no doubt in his rhetoric that he had already taken charge of the 4-12 Giants.

"It is a tremendous challenge, and I am looking forward to working with these players and re-establishing the New York Giants' tradition of physically controlling the line of scrimmage,'' the 57-year-old Coughlin said. "We want to win the battle at the line of scrimmage, eliminate the disease of turnovers and control field position of special teams.''


Quote:
EAST RUTHERFORD, N.J. -- Eleven years after they first courted him, the New York Giants finally introduced Tom Coughlin as their coach.

"It really struck me from an emotional standpoint how very deep my emotions go toward this position and this particular franchise," Coughlin said at a news conference Wednesday, a day after signing a four-year, $12 million contract.
Coughlin succeeds Jim Fassel, who was fired following a season that began with Super Bowl expectations and ended with the team's worst season (4-12) in two decades.

A former Giants receivers coach under Bill Parcells, Coughlin promised to bring back the brand of football that led New York to two Super Bowls under his mentor.

"What we must be all about now is the restoration of pride, of self pride, of team pride, the restoration of our professionalism and the dignity with which we conduct our business," the 57-year-Coughlin said.

"We must restore our belief in the process by which we will win, and we must replace despair with hope and return the energy and passion to New York Giants football," the former Jacksonville Jaguars coach said.

A no-nonsense coach, Coughlin said the Giants must eliminate turnovers and costly penalties, which hurt the team badly last season.

"I believe the young men who represent the New York Giants want strong leadership," Coughlin said. "They want clear and stated objectives. They want superb detail and organization and discipline which provides us all with the confidence to win."

John Mara, the Giants' executive vice president, was convinced Coughlin was the right man for the job after his second interview on Monday.

"We like what his vision is, what his football philosophy is," John Mara said. "We like the passion he brings to the game. I go back to the old (former Giants general manager) George Young attitude in looking for a head coach, you want someone with a high energy level and with something to prove."

Coughlin has both. The energy level was obvious in the strength of his voice and the determination with which he spoke. It was almost as if this was a talk at a team meeting.

He also has something to prove after being fired after the 2002 season, his third straight in Jacksonville. He had a 72-64 record in eight seasons with the Jaguars, twice leading them to the AFC title game.

Coughlin stressed the key to winning is at the line of scrimmage.

Center Chris Bober thought Coughlin would be a good fit after a mistake- and injury-marred season.

"I heard he likes to run a ball-control, smash-mouth style of football and, as a lineman, that's exciting," said Bober, eligible to become a free agent in March. "I hope I can be a part of it."

The Giants finished the season with an eight-game losing streak, but the downward spiral started early in the season, when New York gave away wins against Dallas and Philadelphia with last-minute mistakes.

"The hiring of coach Coughlin signals a new chapter for the Giants and for my career," defensive end Michael Strahan said. "I'm already looking forward to getting ready for next season and working to reach the goal we've set for the team of winning a championship."


I feel like I could be reading this in 2013, as it seems to correlate to our team right now.

I understand people are emotional and unhappy. This has been as miserable a season as I can remember with this Coach and QB. No hope. That's exactly how 2003 felt.

My thinking is, Tom Coughlin will have a plan. He had a plan in 2004, he had a plan with Jacksonville back in 1995, and he had a plan back in 1991 at Boston College. All three yeilded excellent results, and the turnaround happened quickly.

IF... if, if if, he wants to come back and do this again, I believe we need to give him a chance to right this thing, and I don't think there is a better professional out there that would be able to self scout, prioritize, and organize what needs to be done to fix this team. It's a team built in his vision that's gotten old, and I think he can rebuild it.

There is a solid core of veteran leadership on this team, I think Coughlin can identify those players that will stay and be part of the rebuilding process and those that have to go. An infusion of young talent on this team at key positions, coupled with veteran play and leadership, and it can be ready to compete again.

We have a veteran QB that we can build around, and despite all the noise on this board about it, he can, should be, and will be the QB going forward. Which is actually a big improvement from our position in 2004. With the QB in place, I think the rest of the team rebuild can happen quickly. Now, the one caveat to bringing Coughlin back is... We won't get to see Eli in a new system. This is something I definitely want, as I've said before and I'll say again, I want to know once and for all if the high INT totals every year are on Eli, or if they're on the system. As a Giants fan, I don't want to look back and wonder "what if" about the greatest QB our franchise has had to this point. This is the one and only drawback, in my opinion, but I'd rather have the consistency at this point.

For all the pomp and circumstance around the QB and skill positions, go back to the introductory press conference in 2004. We needed to win back the battle at the line of scrimmage. We built the team to do that, and it carried us a long way. That's fallen apart, now. It's been ten years, and that's a long time. The how and the why, in regards to how it fell apart, are now irrelevant. It's time to go back to that philosophy again, and get guys on this team that can carry out that philosophy at the LOS. We used to impose our will on people, and I think it's the right approach going forward, again.

I went back and thought about his firing in Jacksonville, what brought him to us. I remember he took a year off and was brought into a lot of camps by guys like Parcells and Dick Vermeil, who marveled at his attention to detail and preparation for his next gig. As well as these comments from the Jags owner many years later:

Quote:
With his time as the Jaguars owner coming to an end (the team will be turned over to Shahid Khan next Wednesday), Wayne Weaver took a look back at the past 17 years he was in charge of the organization.

In this interview with the team’s official website, he was in a nostalgic mood and he shared perhaps his biggest regret as owner: firing original head coach Tom Coughlin in 2002.

At the time, Weaver said the franchise needed to go in a new direction -- Coughlin had been there eight years at that point -- and pointed out, “There's a point in this business where you have to say, 'We need innovative new ideas, new fresh approaches,' and you have to move in different directions and that's what this is really all about.”

A decade later, Weaver is remorseful about that stance (which, by the way, must make Jack Del Rio feel pretty special).

“If hindsight you could change, I’ll be honest with you: I probably would have never changed Coughlin,” Weaver said. “I would have tried to have Tom take a step back and just be the coach. I thought about it, but I didn’t think Tom would do it. I thought Tom’s pride would never allow him to take a step back and me take the general manager’s position and all power and say, ‘Go coach the football team.’ He did that in New York, but I thought it would hurt his pride too much.”


Weaver also blamed himself for not fully understanding the salary cap and all its implications when Jacksonville first entered the league. In retrospect, though, it’s easy to regret firing the coach who took your expansion team to the playoffs in four of its first eight seasons.

“If you remember, my three short list names I had narrowed it down to were (Mike) Shanahan, (Tony) Dungy and Tom,” Weaver said. “I hired Tom because I felt he was more autocratic and I felt that not knowing anything about this business I needed somebody where I could say, ‘You set the stage here. You build the platform we have to build this franchise around.’ I felt he would be the best guy to do it and as it turned out, he was the best guy to do it. We had tremendous success. Our draft choices were probably better than the average team at the time. That was Tom’s work ethic. He was very involved and he was a good evaluator. He held people accountable to develop those players.”

Alas, this seems to be Coughlin’s lot in life. He can take your expansion team and make it a winner almost immediately and he can win the Super Bowl for his second franchise, but for some reason, he always seems to be on the precipice of getting fired.

Jacksonville did it and now regrets the move. You wonder if the Giants will make the same mistake.


Look around the league. The parity in the NFL is tailor made so teams can go from worst to first, back to worst, then back to first again. Secondly, our division is in shambles across the board. Look no further than yesterday as proof. The NFL can't give this division away. The Cowboys and Redskins will likely be hiring new coaches at year's end. The Eagles are only but so good.

We need consistency. When I take a step back, and try to look at the whole, entire, big picture... That's what I'm left with. You bring back the staff, you stay the course, and you follow the plan.

I know that won't be a popular opinion on this board, and I've been all over the place with it for the past couple weeks myself... But as I settle in and reflect on 2013, and look ahead to 2014, that's what I think is the best move for the franchise.
Excellent post  
Dan in WNY : 12/16/2013 9:49 am : link
Well researched and you stated your case eloquently. That said, I disagree. You cannot ask the man, who is now 10 yrs older to start another rebuilding project. It's not realistic.

Also, TC took over from another regime that had gone into the tank. Now the tanked regime is his own. It's time for change and a new voice.
Dan, I expect a lot of disagreement,  
Britt in VA : 12/16/2013 9:52 am : link
but I appreciate your comment.

The age thing is huge, as well as the idea that the offensive philosophy has gone stale.

I could make a long argument for why we shouldn't bring him back, as well. I actually have thought long and hard about both sides.

I just think there are more pro's than con's to the approach I finally chose to support. The main one being consistency in a turbulent league.
I actually don' think its that much of a rebuild..  
JCin332 : 12/16/2013 9:54 am : link
Rebuild the OL so that not only can it pass protect but also allow a running game..

You do that and they will be right in it next year..
the age thing?  
bc4life : 12/16/2013 9:54 am : link
Pete Carroll is also in his 60s, correct?
Britt  
MaineGiantFan : 12/16/2013 9:57 am : link
I appreciate the reflection and points you have stated. I just cannot see it happening. Like Dan I too disagree.
...  
SanFranGiantsFan : 12/16/2013 9:58 am : link
Stay the course? The ship be sinking.
The "age thing" being that....  
Britt in VA : 12/16/2013 9:59 am : link
Tom Coughlin is a lot closer to 70 than 60, and he will need to sign an extension if this is the course of action.

If he, for instance, tells ownership he only wants to coach one more year, then we won't go with a lame duck, you make the change now. If he commits for another three years, you extend him.

That's what I meant by age thing.
Its ridiculous...  
UncleGrandpa : 12/16/2013 10:00 am : link
..to rebuild a team with a 10 YO coaching staff who's shelf life has obviously expired.
Even if he comes back, why should coaches like Gilbride and Quinn?  
jeff57 : 12/16/2013 10:00 am : link
Is there any accountability required from anyone?
RE: the age thing?  
Dan in WNY : 12/16/2013 10:00 am : link
In comment 11398438 bc4life said:
Quote:
Pete Carroll is also in his 60s, correct?


Wow, he's 62. He looks great! Didn't realize that.

That said, I do think his age is an issue in this case
Quinn should go, I'd be okay with that....  
Britt in VA : 12/16/2013 10:02 am : link
Gilbride should stay.
Seems to be a pattern of holding onto things  
Curtis in VA : 12/16/2013 10:02 am : link
long after their usefulness has expired with this team. Thats why they're in this mess right now.

I expect the pattern to continue, unfortunately. Coughlin and his staff will be here next year.
RE: Even if he comes back, why should coaches like Gilbride and Quinn?  
Dave in Hoboken : 12/16/2013 10:03 am : link
In comment 11398464 jeff57 said:
Quote:
Is there any accountability required from anyone?


No.
Britt...I have no problem if Tom wants to stay but  
MikeN in Ottawa : 12/16/2013 10:03 am : link
i do have a problem if we stay with the same coaches. Certainly, Tom Quinn, at the very minimum, has to go. Gilbride does have a body of work but it seems he has not adjusted well to the new NFL. But, is that his fault or the fault of Jerry Reese for not rebuilding the offensive line?

I also believe Fewell has to go. To me, he coaches scared when we need the D to be aggressive and play to win. He seems to coach not to lose. There is a big difference.

It is hard to say it is a fault to have the loyality Tom has with his staff but it would appear to be. I really do think if Tom wants to continue coaching the Giants will let him but, will they insist on coaching changes? I suspect they might...that alone may force Tom to call it quits.
Excellent Post Britt  
nicky43 : 12/16/2013 10:03 am : link
You reviewed some very good points with good references. I completely agree. TC offers the best chance to turn this around quickly.

That said, based on comments made by the owners a few weeks ago, I do not believe his job is in jeopardy at all.

As far as seeing Eli play in a new system, I'm not sure that would be good for Eli. I believe TC built this offense around Eli's traits. I've heard many coaches say that is what you have to do. You have to build a system that can exploit the specific talents of your QB and the team assembled around him. I also believe this is why we don't see drastic changes in the system from year to year.

TC has been the best thing that happened to the Giants in a very long time and I'll end by pointing to the chatter that dominated this board after we won our last Superbowl which was of the theme, "TC can coach here as long as he wants". Amen to that!

Britt..  
Sean in PA : 12/16/2013 10:03 am : link
very good post. Are you advocating status quo with the entire coaching staff? If not, do you really think undercutting Coughlin and bringing in new coordinators is really beneficial to the state of the franchise long-term?

Right now, I see a franchise with no direction. I see an offense that is completely lost. I'm for Coughlin coming back, IF I see a plan in place. What is the plan?

This offense has not had ONE good game since the last Philly game last year (a team who packed it on). The Giants have been badly beaten by the elite teams dating back to Cincy last season. The offense has given us NOTHING, not even one game in a losing effort to give us something to be a little positive about.

I just need to see something, and now we're 8-14 in the last 22 regular season games including a disastrous pre-season which showed zero offensive productivity.

Something isn't working here, and it needs to be fixed.
good post  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 12/16/2013 10:03 am : link
but I would absolutely hate to see Gilbride brought back. I know a lot of people believe Coughlin is the real offensive "mastermind" but firing Gilbride is something this team absolutely needs to do. I'd lose a lot of respect for this Franchise if they sat on their ass and did nothing coaching wise.

This problem runs a lot deeper than fortifying the interior of our OL. This offensive scheme was simply a giant failure this season. We need to go in a different direction imo.

It's time to see what Eli can do in a different system. So we can finally see how much of it is the system and how much of it is Eli.
Stay the course  
nyynyg : 12/16/2013 10:09 am : link
is what you do when you see signs that the course is correct but just aren't sure yet

is what you do when you are almost there with a little bit more effort

is what you do when you are a few pieces away

is what you do when you have a proven model that works most of the time but just did not in this particular case

is what you do when your message is being executed, when you are being consistent, you are being disciplined, you are playing with pride and avoiding injuries as TC outlined (the quotes you have in bold)

it is not what you do when are in an outright slide (a season and a half slide) and no light at the end of the tunnel

it is not what you do when in certain cases you are not getting the effort you demand and require even though you are asking for it

it is not what you do when you are quite frankly a good number of pieces away and are looking to rebuild to a decent degree with a 70 year old coach

it is not what you do when (this will hit a nerve) the model has proven to not work consistently. we all love the two super bowls, but two magnificent runs do not embody consistency, they are streaks, fantastic, wonderful, phenomenal streaks stating you are the best team in the league and the best time. We have not seen the consistency

it is not what you do when your team is doing absolutely none of the things that your coach has outlined for recipe for success


We can all appreciate and always admire TC for what he has done for this franchise. I know I do. And if he were ten years younger, I would agree with you perhaps. But we need some major changes, in personnel and in philosophy. That philosophy change is only going to come with new coordinators. You do not replace your coaching staff (sans HC) for the third/more time when the HC is almost 70. This is thinking about the short and longer term future of the Giants, not any one individual or move and if you factor both the short and long term, NOW is the right time for wholesale changes.
We have to once and for all understand...  
Britt in VA : 12/16/2013 10:10 am : link
that Gilbride is an extension of Coughlin, it's his design. The execution of the offense is one they have put together together over many years.

You cannot fire Gilbride without firing Tom Coughlin. Hence, they both return.

As far as Fewell, I don't like a lot of things about his defense, namely not challenging WR's at the LOS, but he's done his job well enough this year that I can't find ground for firing him.

Quinn can go.
All that and you want to keep the mess we have now?  
ZogZerg : 12/16/2013 10:11 am : link
The O is stale and needs an overhaul.

The coaches can't seem to coach anyone up. It is really pathetic.

This isn't just ONE bad year. They sucked last year as well. Keeping status qua = No hope/Cellar dweller next year.
What concerns me the most,  
Tittle 9 20 64 : 12/16/2013 10:13 am : link
is the disconnect between coaching & management Pat wrote about in one of her articles. That a serious problem to have for a team. If this remain status quo, that problem is not going to change.
Britt  
cosmicj : 12/16/2013 10:19 am : link
I disagree. No one doubts Coughlin's ability or desire to win, but he is getting old. While there have been many technical miscues this season - in personnel, strategy and coaching - what is also missing is ENERGY, something which is evident if you look at the last 5 years of Giants history. The lack of energy manifests itself in constant inconsistency, in passivity and inertia.

The last two games point exactly to the type of late-season collapse that marks the end of a major coach's career. The team has given up and there is a feeling, spreading across an organization, that things are winding down, rather than being an unfortunate interlude. Look at the way Andy Reid - obviously still a very viable coach in 2012 - ended his Eagles career. Think back to the 2003 end-of-Fassel season. Or the way Tom Landry ended his career in Dallas with a 1-11 conclusion to the 1988 season. After the Dallas loss, I knew we were going to find out a lot about Coughlin's viability as a coach in 2014 in the next few games. The news has arrived. It's over.
I'm with Britt. People realize this is the most cap space and best  
Giants Fan in Steelers Land : 12/16/2013 10:23 am : link
drafting position this organization has had in a decade right?

The team hasn't been able to reload like this in one offseason because they've been so successful. Lets let the guys who built a team that one 2 super bowls build a team again now that they have the opportunity (and they already have a qb!). I trust a Coughlin rebuild over mystery head coach's rebuild.


I blame Reese for this season.  
BrettNYG10 : 12/16/2013 10:23 am : link
His draft picks have missed, and he did an awful job of constructing the OL. Counting on Snee was one questioned by many here given his recent performance - to not have an adequate backup falls on his shoulders, not Coughlin's.

Because of that, I'd be happy to have TC back.
And the "hes old" arguement is bullshit.  
Giants Fan in Steelers Land : 12/16/2013 10:25 am : link
If the guy has the desire, energy, and mental capacity to coach for another 10 years let him. Don't decide for yourself when he's too old just to fit your own opinions and arguments.
I tend to agree, Britt  
djm : 12/16/2013 10:25 am : link
people need to look at the big picture here. I don't know if I want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Just because the team needs to start over in many aspects doesn't mean they need to fire the coach. Many teams of the past started over but kept the coach. Cowher in Pitt comes to mind...

I think i'd rather keep Coughlin a year too long than get rid of him a year too soon. I'd err on the side of cohesion.

NO ONE prepares harder and there aren't many coaches who are better at evaluating talent or molding a team.

I just hate the turnovers every year. It needs to stop.
this isn't just one bad year?  
djm : 12/16/2013 10:27 am : link
yes it is just one bad year. Last year they were 9-7 but finished badly. And yes that type of season constitutes a failure but that's not a bad year.



No desire to waste Eli's last few years of his prime  
Dave in Hoboken : 12/16/2013 10:27 am : link
in this offense. Time to see him in a new offense. It's been time, for awhile, actually.
Coughlin had plans when he was a new hire  
chris r : 12/16/2013 10:29 am : link
he didn't have plans to turn things around when the ship was sinking otherwise he'd still be in Jacksonville and otherwise we wouldn't have this shitty 2013 as it was quite obvious towards the end of 2012 that the Giants were sinking.
I think a lot of the reasons for getting rid of TC aren't issues  
jcn56 : 12/16/2013 10:31 am : link
Age is a concern, but longer term, not the next 2-3 years. I don't think the system is as big a deal as it's been made out, the holes that we have, where we have them, just exacerbate the problem.

I think the biggest issue regarding the coaching staff is complacency. I've seen it in very good organizations with excellent leaders, where after a certain point complacency sits in because of comfort and the message is lost. To me, it seems like we're looking at a bit of that here.

Does that mean that TC is no longer a good coach, and that he won't have success elsewhere? Hardly, but I think he's run his course here.
.  
cosmicj : 12/16/2013 10:33 am : link
Gaints fan in Steelers Land: "If the guy has the desire, energy, and mental capacity to coach for another 10 years let him. Don't decide for yourself when he's too old just to fit your own opinions and arguments."

That's a big "if". The argument is exactly that Coughlin no longer has the desire and energy in him, no matter what he says.

jcn - "Complacency." Exactly right. That is what I was trying to say in my post and I think you did it better.
Move on from people a year early, rather than a year late  
Kyle : 12/16/2013 10:34 am : link
It applies to coaches as well as it does to players.

We're one of the worst 5 teams in football.
RE: Move on from people a year early, rather than a year late  
dep026 : 12/16/2013 10:35 am : link
In comment 11398639 Kyle said:
Quote:
It applies to coaches as well as it does to players.

We're one of the worst 5 teams in football.


You cannot get rid of 9/10ths of the roster.
I really would like to where this plan was after last year  
chris r : 12/16/2013 10:37 am : link
this shitty play started midway through last year and has carried over into this year. Why didn't he implement his plan coming into this year?
Everyone has a piece of this disaster  
Jim in Forest Hills : 12/16/2013 10:39 am : link
Reese/Ross
TC/Gil/Fewell
Players

To stay the course doesn't make sense completely. There will be player turnover so that will be fluid. Is that enough for this team to move forward?
...  
Kyle : 12/16/2013 10:41 am : link
I said to turn over 9/10ths the roster?
As mentioned previously...  
hitchchops : 12/16/2013 10:44 am : link
...rebuilding a mess of your own creation is entirely different from coming from the outside and cleaning up someone else's mess. In fact, that is exactly why we need a fresh start, someone needs to clean up this mess, and that needs to be an outsider. But my bigger issue with your entire premise is the assumption of capability. If Coughlin was capable of turning this team around, why did he not do it this season? Last season was a mess, particularly the end, but not bad enough for him to use his magical rebuilding powers this year. Face it, the course we are on with this regime is not trending upwards, this is the downward spiral you have heard about.
RE: ...  
dep026 : 12/16/2013 10:44 am : link
In comment 11398695 Kyle said:
Quote:
I said to turn over 9/10ths the roster?


But if you move on from people a year early than a year late (which I agree with), who on the roster is worth keeping at the right cost? Very few of them are living up to any type of deal that they signed.
OK - how about slightly altering Kyle's point:  
cosmicj : 12/16/2013 10:46 am : link
The Giants have already retained Coughlin a season too long. The conclusion of the 2012 season was disastrous. Now I understand why the Giants decided to stay-the-course but it sure looks like they should have been HC shopping this off-season.
RE: .  
Giants Fan in Steelers Land : 12/16/2013 10:52 am : link
In comment 11398633 cosmicj said:
Quote:
Gaints fan in Steelers Land: "If the guy has the desire, energy, and mental capacity to coach for another 10 years let him. Don't decide for yourself when he's too old just to fit your own opinions and arguments."

That's a big "if". The argument is exactly that Coughlin no longer has the desire and energy in him, no matter what he says.

jcn - "Complacency." Exactly right. That is what I was trying to say in my post and I think you did it better.


It is a very big IF. Its also something only TC knows inside. Either he still has the desire or he doesn't. IF he has it I want him. Its a useless exercise to argue how he feels because he will never make that clear and he won't stay if he doesn't have the desire. Just not how he operates.
Britt's post, while artfully presented,  
Ash : 12/16/2013 10:57 am : link
is premised on the belief that the Giants are much closer to being a genuine title contender than some of the rest of us believe.

One way to think about the Giants is that they're an O-line away from contention, that the system is fine, Eli's just been shell-shocked by consistent pressure, and heavy investment in the O-line will basically do the trick in turning us back into a 25+ ppg team. I can understand this position, even if I disagree with it deeply. Here, the thought is that Eli's last 20+ games or so are something of an abberation. Moreover, our offensive system works because it has in the past, and despite its flaws, its track record (i.e. 2 SB wins and not 5+ seasons of mercurial performances) is enough to vindicate it. Finally, on this view, the defense is almost there and we're a few tweaks away from contention. I think the strongest assumption of this line of argument is the argument that the NFL is a very fickle place and teams can go from no. 1 territory to contention very quickly. The Chiefs and the Colts are cited as evidence of this. I think that's all very fair.

Here's an alternate argument, slightly less optimistic.

1. We don't have a realistic alternative at QB outside of Eli and whatever plans we have for the near future (i.e. a 2 year time period), need to take him into account. 2 SB's are also enough to vindicate some hope of revival. Nevertheless, we want to have a way of structuring his future contract that if two years down the road, with necessary improvements to his supporting cast in place, he still doesn't perform, we can get rid of him and try anew. We likely won't be in a position this draft to get a legitimate franchise talent at QB anyway, so we're better off waiting.

2. The talent level on this team is much lower than we thought it was. Across the O-line, we have below average players aside from Pugh. Beatty has been a massive disappointment. The interior O-line is horrendous and it amplifies Eli's greatest weakness (interior pressure). This is the first place to fix, and fix aggressively. We should, at the minimum, have two new players in the interior O-line next season. Ideally, it would be a total overhaul. Even if this doesn't ultimately fix Eli, it should help our running game, which with Brown and Hillis should at least be somewhat above average given decent blocking.

3. Our WR corps has similarly suffered from Nicks becoming a non-factor. He's a glorified Jerrico Cotchery at the moment. That is not a difference maker. Cruz has tried to do his part, but he's not the sort of WR who's going to tower over two defenders and grab balls. He needs space to do his magic. Randle is a talent who suffers from a lack of concentration. There could be a future where he's a 75-80 catch 1000 yard, 8 TD star. There could also be a future where he becomes a consistently inconsistent frustration. If Nicks is gone, we need a difference maker here.

4. We have no TE.

5. On D, we have some player who look like serious keepers - Joseph, Hankins, Amakamura, Hill, Beason (perhaps, health and contract matter here). Maybe JWill. Rolle is difficult to include because of his contract.

The unfortunate thing is that this list, given the performance this year, doesn't include a single DE. Our pass rush has been an abomination, and no matter how good the effort we get from the other players, without even an average pass rush, they'll be fighting an uphill battle. The key culprit here is JPP. This year, he gets more of a pass given injuries. Last year, if you're feeling charitable, also gets somewhat of a pass because of injuries. He's going to have an entire offseason to rest up. He doesn't need to return to DPOY form for our D to become much, much better, but he certainly needs to become a 12 sack, elite two-way D if he wants a good contract from us.

Another unfortunate thing is that the list doesn't contain more than one CB. We're going to need at least another quality CB.

6. Our offensive system, while marvelously successful on two different occasions (though was it the system that got us those titles, or was it the fact that Nicks, Cruz, and Eli just balling the **** out and could've accomplished what they did in any offensive system EVEN one with fewer moving parts.), has two deep flaws. First, it has a very steep learning curve, which in a salary cap era, lessens the value we can get from players on their rookie contracts. Second, when experienced players get injured, and less intelligent and experienced players take their place, the offense gets markedly worse. Since football is a physical game with lots of injuries, this is presumably a large worry. If Eli still has it (I'm cautiously hopeful here), then are getting the most out of his prime with a system that depends (more so than others) on the best players not getting injured?



As stated above,  
MBavaro : 12/16/2013 11:00 am : link
It's EXTREMELY difficult to "turn around" something that has occurred under your own watch. I don't care how good a coach/leader you are.

2007 wasn't a "turn around" from the previous years. It was part of the process. The process has run it's course.

Time for a new voice.
I agree, but that's not really  
Rick5 : 12/16/2013 11:03 am : link
important. To me, what is more relevant is what the Giants are likely to do not what we as individuals want to happen. Taking all emotions out of it, I don't think there is any chance at all that Mara fires TC or "forces" him to retire. For those who think that is a likely scenario, why do you think that will happen (particularly given Mara's public statements over the years -including this year - about TC)?
.....  
SamTheTram : 12/16/2013 11:13 am : link
I agree. I think the roster needs a serious overhaul. These coaches have proven that they can win superbowls.

The offensive line is priority number 1. The 3 interior spots need fresh bodies (and the tough part is I don't think the replacements are on the roster), as well as a blocking tight end.

I know people get frustrated with Gilbrides play calling. But it truely was an awesome thing to watch in 2008 when it was humming. People never complained about those shotgun handoffs when derek ward was getting 4-8 yards a clip.
Yea, an owner or GM has never lied..  
hitchchops : 12/16/2013 11:14 am : link
...or mislead the public about their intentions for the future, so therefore we can take every single statement at face value. As to why people think it will happen, they are the ones watching the team "compete"
These last two years look a like Jacksonville  
Mason : 12/16/2013 11:21 am : link
Ernie's warning to Reese seems to be spot on concerning Coughlin's desire to have significant input in roster decisions.
I love TC  
eleven : 12/16/2013 11:29 am : link
as our coach. But there are a few things that irk me.

1) Delay of game stuff hasn't been corrected in 10 years

2) We haven't been able to run a screen on offense or stop a screen on defense in four years

3) Our coverage teams have been awful for basically the entire decade. (As you saw with the Seahawks -there is an incredible amount of hidden yardage there.

4) The linebacker position has been notoriously weak. (I know this also falls on Jerry but look at the Seahawks - that had a bunch of unproven guys there that are now superstars-coaching is a part of it)

When I see things that are correctable consistently uncorrected at my company, it's either because: The leader is unaware, the personel cannot adapt, The leader waits for it to correct itself, or doesn't have the answer.

In either case, when something needs to be addressed, it needs to be addressed. Ten years is a long time to let some of this stuff slide by.

If TC has a plan or the answer to some of these things, I believe that he would have done everything in his know how to take care of it by now.

I don't think he has all the answers nor should he. Jerry needs to step in and give him a staff that will help him find the answers. The great coaches have great hall of fame staffs. There isn't a future head coach in this bunch. Tom is loyal to a fault. Its time for Jerry to break that up and do his job of putting the best team on the field from players to front office.
I agree Britt  
Johnny5 : 12/16/2013 11:29 am : link
The coaching staff is far from perfect but we did not have the horses up front or at TE to have any kind of offensive consistency. It killed this team this year.
RE: the age thing?  
Victor in CT : 12/16/2013 11:43 am : link
In comment 11398438 bc4life said:
Quote:
Pete Carroll is also in his 60s, correct?


Pete Carroll is 62. He was 59 when he fled USC to go to the Seahawks. TC will be 68 when the 2014 season starts. HUUUUGE difference if a rebuild job is in order
RE: RE: the age thing?  
micky : 12/16/2013 11:47 am : link
In comment 11398976 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
In comment 11398438 bc4life said:


Quote:


Pete Carroll is also in his 60s, correct?



Pete Carroll is 62. He was 59 when he fled USC to go to the Seahawks. TC will be 68 when the 2014 season starts. HUUUUGE difference if a rebuild job is in order



Don't think the adage: age is a factor...look at what Marv Levy did.
I also agree with Britt  
Phil from WNY : 12/16/2013 11:49 am : link
Football is a sport where the players depend on each other. The Giant's offense depends on decent Oline play and they didn't get it this year.

People like to point to Aaron Rodgers and how he can play well behind terrible Olines but he's in a different system and possesses a different skill set.

Re-vamp the Oline and get a good number 1 receiver - even if it means paying Nicks - and watch things turn on a dime.
If Geno doesn't pass him, this will be Eli's 3rd time leading in ints  
Mason : 12/16/2013 11:49 am : link
Just incredible. Last two years just 30 rush attempts with a whomping total of 68 yards for two yrs. For today blitzing league that stat is more mind blowing. Hell when he had superior blocking he would rack up about 70 yards a yr. There's a lot of issues going on but qb play and how the position is coached is a big one.
Britt -- excellent post but I disagree.  
David in Belmont : 12/16/2013 12:00 pm : link
I think the team owners are in a real quandary. They are completely personally committed to TC but have a basically unwatchable product on the field. The Giants have become a really poor team and a pathetic product (to steal Pat's word from this morning). I really can't understand how anyone on BBI or elsewhere excuses the coaches for responsibility for what has happened. Sure its not completely their fault but they have certainly contributed to the mess. And for that they should be held accountable and replaced.

However, my guess on watching the team since 1958 is that the owners do nothing except say again, that everyone is on notice yada yada yada.

Doc Rivers (one of my basketball favorite players and coaches) came back to Boston last week with the Clippers. He said that one of the reasons he left the Celtics after last season (in addition to not wanting to be part of another rebuilding project) was that after 9 years he felt like his voice and message were no longer being heard in the locker room. I think that happened to TC and his OC years ago but the team's decline was covered over or pushed off by the remarkable run of the last 6 or 7 games of the 2011 season which ended with the Superbowl victory. How many end of season collapses have there been? How many incredibly stupid penalties or head-scratching offensive and defensive plays.

This team needs an entirely new coaching staff as soon as possible. The current coaches have run out of steam and ideas. TC seems like a good man but it is time to go. He's been paid a lot for doing a job that millions of others would love to have. I still have some confidence in Jerry but he also should be on notice that he better have an extremely successful off-season and draft.

It's not that I absolve them from blame...  
Britt in VA : 12/16/2013 12:05 pm : link
it's that I have confidence in them to correct it.
I am still torn between which direction I want them to go.  
TheDarkKnight : 12/16/2013 12:10 pm : link
But I am leaning towards a new coaching staff. I love everything that Coughlin has done here but this is two mediocre seasons now. I think the problem is bigger then just fixing the oline & grabbing a better tight end. I am starting to think that the combo of Coughlin/Gilbride are prehistoric in this new age NFL. There doesn't seem to be any creativity at all. It looks as if opposing coordinators are licking their chops when they know the Giants are on the schedule. I could definitely be wrong but what I have watched this year has been disgusting to say the least. I just don't see how you can bring back this entire staff & believe they can right the ship. This is a lot different than all the other "fire Coughlin" years as we seem to be way behind the majority of the league with the overall talent on this team. And who on earth would vote to give Nicks big money after this shit storm of a season he has given us? I don't care that he is only 25. This dude obviously does not want to be here. I think the best part about bringing in a new coaching staff would be that they wouldn't be looking at this roster with rose colored glasses on. There would be no loyalty from a new coach to these players because the new coach wouldn't know exactly what they have & therefore could give an unbiased opinion on who should stay & who should be replaced. Let's be honest, 10 years is a long time for a head coach in this league. Sometimes a change is exactly what you need.
Hard to argue with the opposite perspective....  
Britt in VA : 12/16/2013 12:28 pm : link
.
RE: RE: RE: the age thing?  
Victor in CT : 12/16/2013 12:32 pm : link
In comment 11398988 micky said:
Quote:
In comment 11398976 Victor in CT said:


Quote:


In comment 11398438 bc4life said:


Quote:


Pete Carroll is also in his 60s, correct?



Pete Carroll is 62. He was 59 when he fled USC to go to the Seahawks. TC will be 68 when the 2014 season starts. HUUUUGE difference if a rebuild job is in order




Don't think the adage: age is a factor...look at what Marv Levy did.


Again, Levy was 61 when he got hired at Buffalo to build that team. The team he coached in his 70s was established. When he was 72 he retired. He didnt go through another rebuilding at a late age.
Ash  
Kyle : 12/16/2013 12:57 pm : link
Aside from agreeing with most everything...

Quote:
5. On D, we have some player who look like serious keepers - Joseph, Hankins, Amakamura, Hill, Beason (perhaps, health and contract matter here). Maybe JWill. Rolle is difficult to include because of his contract.

The unfortunate thing is that this list, given the performance this year, doesn't include a single DE. Our pass rush has been an abomination, and no matter how good the effort we get from the other players, without even an average pass rush, they'll be fighting an uphill battle. The key culprit here is JPP. This year, he gets more of a pass given injuries. Last year, if you're feeling charitable, also gets somewhat of a pass because of injuries. He's going to have an entire offseason to rest up. He doesn't need to return to DPOY form for our D to become much, much better, but he certainly needs to become a 12 sack, elite two-way D if he wants a good contract from us.


The JPP situation is quietly the biggest question mark on the team, more than the quarterback. We have to restock the offensive line regardless of Eli's talents, because we have to improve our running game and pass protection alike. It's easy to trace all of the problems on offense to the poor blocking. It's foolish to then say "well, that's the whole problem!" but it does contribute the most to what's ailing us.

JPP, however, is one single player who was counted on to be the engine of our pass rush. Even when healthy, he wasn't one of the league's best pass rushers: he racked up a number of hustle/effort sacks. He wasn't generating those "I just destroyed the tackle and nailed the QB in 2.4 second" sacks that are the hallmarks of Cameron Wake and Tambi Hali and Von Miller, among others. Now with the back injury making him into Just Another Guy, we're in really dire straits if he can't regain full form and then improve as a pass rusher.

The pass rush is a disaster without a healthy JPP, and even with him fully operational, there's still work to be done.

I don't know what this team does for a backup plan.
RE: Yea, an owner or GM has never lied..  
Rick5 : 12/16/2013 1:06 pm : link
In comment 11398876 hitchchops said:
Quote:
...or mislead the public about their intentions for the future, so therefore we can take every single statement at face value. As to why people think it will happen, they are the ones watching the team "compete"


We aren't talking about owners in the abstract, this relates specifically to Mara and Tisch. What in their history makes you think they will can TC? Mara just spoke publicly about the importance of organizational stability and being "lucky" to have TC earlier this season.
How is age an issue? It has nothing to do with it IMO  
GloryDayz : 12/16/2013 1:37 pm : link
TC doesnt have any medical issues, at least not that we know of anways. There isnt even a slightest indication TC is slowing down, or doesnt have the energy, patience, or drive to do this for a few more years.

If you think TC's tenure here has run its course, his message is lost, or whatever, fine, but honestly I dont see age as a factor AT ALL.
How does that song go?  
Doomster : 12/16/2013 1:51 pm : link
"Oh the grass is always greener
In the other fellow's yard.
Little rows, we have to hoe
Oh boy, that's hard.
Now if we all could wear green glasses
Then it wouldn't be so hard
To see how green the grass is
In our own back yard."
Doomster  
nyynyg : 12/16/2013 2:16 pm : link
this is not a case of the grass being greener. it is not even close.
Glory  
cosmicj : 12/16/2013 2:53 pm : link
"There isnt even a slightest indication TC is slowing down, or doesnt have the energy, patience, or drive to do this for a few more years."

I think there's every indication that Coughlin is slowing down and not coaching with the energy and passion he did a few years ago.

I know people are becoming more and more critical about Marc Ross (I think he needs to be fired the Monday morning after week 17) but the problems in NYG drafting might be another sign of Coughlin's slowing down. That's a guess, but wanted to throw it out there.
The players will determine TC's fate  
PEEJ : 12/16/2013 2:58 pm : link
if they lay down like dogs, they are basically firing him.
PEEJ  
cosmicj : 12/16/2013 3:08 pm : link
They are laying down like dogs. That wk 17 matchup between the Skins & the Giants is going to be semi-pro level ball.
Mara and TC  
nicky43 : 12/16/2013 4:43 pm : link
Not only did Mara recently speak publicly about the importance of organizational stability and being "lucky" to have TC earlier this season but he also spoke about how he understands how teams go through cycles of good years and bad years because of how competitive the league is.

For those that are wanting TC to be let go, you are going to be very disappointed as he will definitely be back in 2014. The most you are going to get is TC being put on notice that 2014 must be much improved.

Also, age has absolutely NOTHING to do with it just as others have said so long as his health desire and energy levels are there and clearly they are with TC. If not, I guarantee you he will leave on his own.
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