First off.. this isn't an "Eli sux!" thread, so let's just get that out of the way.
That said, I think we all would have agreed after the 2nd Super Bowl that Eli basically could have hung them up at that point and would have had a strong case to be a Hall of Famer.
This year has been about as bad as a QB who has accomplished what he has could possibly have. Eli is having the year of a rookie QB or a backup forced into starting duty more or less.
You can look at a guy like Dan Fouts who threw a lot of INT's in his career (five 20+ INT seasons) who is in the HoF but he never led the league in picks. This is the 3rd time Eli has in 10 seasons.
Basically what I'm asking is.. do you think Eli has to sort of "earn" his way back into HoF consideration or do you think regardless of this year, he's already done enough? Even if he had average years from here on out, I would have thought he'd probably get in. But this year has been so bad that I'm not quite sure anymore. I think it's a pretty big black eye and I feel like he's going to have to re-establish himself with a couple more big years even if he doesn't win another title.
What say you?
HOF will always be a number game, and even though Eli will have yards and TDs by the end of his career, he wont have the prestigious QB Rating, which is probably he worst advanced stat in all of sports.
Now if he rebounds with 4-5 good seasons of 3,500-4,000 yards 20 TD seasons, it may change. And obviously 1 more Sb gets him in. But the INTs, completion percentage, and QB rating will be used more than anything else.
I think he'll bounce back big next season.
I think its similar to the Peyton is a choker notion. Casual fans have said that for years but I think the voters are smart enough to recognize that he had no defense most years and thats why his teams lost in the playoffs. I think the voters will realize how bad this team was this year.
I can buy the defense carrying him in 2007-8 a bit.. but he was pretty damn good throughout the postseason in 2011-12. He threw 9 TD's to 1 INT and had a rating over 100, IIRC. He was excellent.
Although the 2 superbowls likely puts him over the top he better end up top 5-8 in passing yards or I don't necessarily see him going in.
Yesterday I barely watched any football...I just had the Red Zone on a lap top in the background. They cut away for each of Eli's first four picks. There is definitely a schadenfreude when it comes to him.
I think he'll need another Super Bowl win, because the stats are going to pale in comparison to his contemporaries in the Arena League (last week the league set a record for TDs scored...yesterday a record for points...what a product!).
After 2011, Eli looked like he was heading to the HOF. But after this season, he's on the outside looking in. An in his prime HOF QB should not be having this kind of season.
The good news for Eli is that his legacy included the word "inconsistent" even before this year. So if he bounces back with a strong year it wouldn't be surprising. But he needs to bounce back and have a strong 2-4 year run here to put himself back in the "probable" section for the HOF.
I do believe though that the Giants will retool the OL this offseason and his numbers will bounce back and I think he will win one more before all is said and one..
Agree with this. He'll have to play his way in from here on out.
They dominate on a week to week basis.
You can say the very same about Roethlisberger who had one of the all time worst performances in a SB win followed up with a miracle catch by Holmes. His D was also insane.
What about Flacco against Manning last year?
You can go on and on and on...
Seriously..?
He was the BEST player in the post season overall in both those runs..
Quote:
So, yes, I think this season will be a major obstacle unless he reverses course awfully soon.
Agree with this. He'll have to play his way in from here on out.
I am in total agreement with this
I agree. He's had one year of elite Quarterback play (top 5 QB), a plethora of top ten QB play, this disaster, and a couple pedestrian years.
He needs another 2-3 elite years or another SB run to qualify as a lock.
We simply don't know and at least in terms of being here five more years, I'd bet under on that.
Not all QBs last long into their mid-late 30s, and it's even less likely to stick with the original team especially when they're being paid huge money.
I'd be shocked if TC doesn't get in.
His stats are all up there in accordance with inclusion, and INT's by themself won't keep him out.
His last name and his two Superbowl MVP's, his clutch reputation, and the records that back that up get him in.
No would is going to expect or say Eli had no OL. They can't run block or pass block. They have no TE corpps, and their X is useless. They have musical RBs, and still through all that Eli had a nearly 5K season, and almost 30 TDs with 15 ints.
That shit isn't going to happen or should be expected. I don't see how Eli could have done well. So I think voters will be fine with it.
This is ELi's first losing season since he started a full season for us.
It all depends how many QBs the era wants to induct.
Tiki Barber - 2 x
Jeremy Shockey - 2x
Victor Cruz - 1x
These 3 were the only ones initially named to the Pro Bowl. Only 1 coming from 2007 on. Steve Smith was an alternate that eventually replaced another WR. So a total of 6 pro bowls from 4 players, only 2 since 2007.
2. Eli Manning
And it's close, because Hernandez was already a long shot. Plenty of time for Eli to regain lost ground, though (Elway-style, I hope). Can't say the same for Hernandez.
Eli's got him slightly beat in yards and TDs, but he's also thrown fifty more interceptions than him. They're roughly even in fourth quarter comebacks and game winning drives. Both have two titles, although BR was never the MVP and Eli was the MVP twice. Ben's made another Super Bowl, though, where Eli hasn't won a playoff game outside of 2007 and 2011. They're very, very close. I'd say Ben has a slight edge but not enough of one to be significant.
Eli's got him slightly beat in yards and TDs, but he's also thrown fifty more interceptions than him. They're roughly even in fourth quarter comebacks and game winning drives. Both have two titles, although BR was never the MVP and Eli was the MVP twice. Ben's made another Super Bowl, though, where Eli hasn't won a playoff game outside of 2007 and 2011. They're very, very close. I'd say Ben has a slight edge but not enough of one to be significant.
That's really interesting. I didn't realize Ben and Eli were so close in comebacks.
Also, when comparing 4th qtr. comebacks, I think Eli's 4th quarter TD record, a longstanding record held by both Unitas and Peyton, gives Eli an edge.
As far as Tom Coughlin being a lock, just look at his entire body of work.
Built a franchise from scratch and took them to two AFC Title Games. Won two Superbowls with the Giants. Had a Superbowl win as an assistant. Look at his win percentage for his career.
He's a lock.
When he was hired by Carolina they fell flat on their faces.
Coughlin has been a winner, and built winners, everywhere he's gone.
Also, as far as the NFL "bending the rules" for expansion teams, that's irrelevant. The rules were the rules, and you play the hand you're dealt.
2) Eli and Roethlisberger are very close. I think both are HoF QBs.
3) Personally, I wanted the Giants to stand pat and draft Roethlisberger in 2004 strictly because I didn't think there was a huge difference in the two to have to trade up for Eli. that said, I believed than and still do that Eli was the best QB in that draft. once they made the deal, I had no complaints.
Actually, I can think of something more meaningless... jumping into a conversation you're not interested in to tell people that you don't find it meaningful. Thanks for your opinion.
Anyway.. I think had Eli finished his career out with career average type years, he'd have had a decent shot. But this season has just been so bad.. I can't think of any HoF QB off the top of my head with a year THIS bad. There may be one.. I just can't think of one.
I know the line is awful, I know there are a lot of factors at play here.. but the guy is probably going to throw 30 INT's this year. 30!
Now, of course, his defenders (who are legion around here) will eventually parachute in to explain why a totally amazing awesome QB like Joe Namath threw 50 more INTs than TDs in his career.
I really don't care about Eli's chances at the HoF right now. While I get that trying to predict the future is a fun part of being a fan for a lot of people, it's never interested me. Mostly because all of these predictions are almost always wrong, especially (it seems) when it comes to the Giants. What this year means or doesn't for Eli's chances is impossible to say from here. Still, hopefully, too much career left.
I hope Eli plays a lot better next year. And gets a lot more help. I'll start thinking about his chances at the HoF when he announces his retirement and we can look back on his entire body of work.
As it stands now, I don't think it's a lock whatsoever. And after this season, I think he's on the outside looking in. He has to re-establish himself as a big time QB in order to make it, IMO.
Bradshaw is another one with a couple of similar seasons.
Tittle had a season worse than this right in the middle of his career.
Unitas had a couple.
Tarkenton had a couple, although one was at the very beginning of his career and the other was his final season.
Just terrible.
I can't imagine voters keeping Eli out because of a bad year where he didn't elevate his game enough around a league worst OL and his stats suffered because of it. Again it all depends on how you see the rest of his career playing out.
What about Brady and the Tuck Rule?
Saying if it weren't for 2 plays is ridiculous. What Eli accomplished in both runs was remarkable, especially beating the teams we did, all but 1 on the road.
I absolutely think he has some real good years left in the tank but the FO really need to fix what's going on right now by putting people in front of him who can block.
Eli is right in the top 25 of both all time (19th in passing and 24th in TD's). He will likely move into the top 10 all time before it's said and done.
Drew Brees (175)
Peyton Manning (219)
Brett Favre (336)
Possible? Sure. Likely? How the hell can anyone say that with any conviction?
Yes and no. After that second SB, it was almost unanimous in the media that he answered his critics, he was elite, etc. That is even for those who didn't feel he was the MVP. Among the first things mentioned when Eli is discussed, at this point, are the two SB wins, the two SB MVPs, and the 4th quarter stats/comebacks. Those weigh heavily in his favor at this point.
However, the flip side is that the INTs always get equal time, and rightfully so. I have a feeling one more glory season makes his HOF decision about the eye test based on the titles. however, one more season like this year could overshadow the wins and swing it the other way.
Playing in NY, 2 magical SB runs, Giants all time leader in everything, great with the media, and whatever else is still to come.
It won't be 1st ballot, but his getting in.
Favre 508 (#1 all time), Peyton 483 (#2), Brees 358 (#4), Eli 227 (#24)
Passing yards:
Favre 71,838 (#1), Peyton 64,298 (#2), Brees 50,419 (#5), Eli 34,937 (#19)
Much bigger gaps between those guys in good categories.
Peyton: 1 Superbowl
Brees: 1 Superbowl
Eli: 2 Superbowls.
We're talking about overall body of work, are we not?
There are few active players ahead of Eli on any of those lists.
He will likely break into the top ten in both passing yards and TD's, All Time, when it's said and done.
He may or may not break into the top ten in INT's. He's have to throw 20 picks every year for the next five years to do it. He could, but it's unlikely that a. he'll do that, and b. he may not play another five years.
You take the good with the bad. Period. Yes, the INT's are bad, but there is a lot more good.
That is absolutely right. I look at Eli and I see a guy who's played like a HOFer in the two biggest spots of his career. I see the rest of his career and I see a guy who's been a slightly above average QB. Whether he's a HOFer depends on the relative weight you put on two magical runs and the rest of the body of his work.
He has to step up his game if he wants to be enshrined.
His career yards, td's etc just don't stack up to other elite QB's as Greg said, and worse, by the time he is eligible at least a few of the younger QB's will have as good or better numbers. Guys like Stafford, Ryan, Luck, Wilson etc.
And the interceptions kill him. The HOF voters aren't going to buy the "most of the interceptions are someone else's fault" line.
He also had to do the same thing in 2011 however NE was not undefeated that year. Last drive heroics again.
I think winning a SB the way he did by having to score a TD in the waning seconds to win it all....is an amazing accomplishment in itself. Not just winning, but the circumstances of the wins.
However having said that....since then, he has regressed to a point where he is almost laughable to watch.
People want to compare Eli to other QB's but by standard measures, he comes up short. But if you measure him only by standard measures, you miss what makes him great.
I challenge that slightly above average regular season play. 2011 regular season was not the norm, it was more of an exception if his stats are analize objectively along with 2009. While this may be his worse regular season it should be noted that 2007 was rotten but had a nice post season ending.
like a t brady p manning or d brees
Plus, around the time he retires, he's going to be in the que with Brees, Ben, Rodgers, and maybe even Rivers. His 2 rings will give him leverage, but head to head against those 3, he's probably going to lose because of those picks..
And it's not he's going to be evaluated just on 2 rings..They are going to compare him against his brother..
I know history will view Eli Manning kindly long down the road. I wonder how Giants fans will view him... Will we have arguments on this board 20 years for now that Eli is the worst HOF QB in there, because they don't want to come off their 20 year old argument that we wasted picks in trading for him?
Unlike other times, and debates of the past, everybody's stance from the here and now will likely be archived and accessible.
It's just weird to think one day we'll be able to come back and see exactly what people did and didn't think about him.
Coughlin, however, I still believe is on track.
I just wonder what the conversations would be like, hypothetically, if he did get in ultimately. Would there be posters here, the same that have chirped the loudest since 2004, in success and failure, that will diminish the accomplishment to support their argument?
Or where there just be a lot of revisionist history and everybody will say they loved him the whole time?
Me? I think he'll get in, but if he doesn't, I don't think it would be that hard to see why he didn't. The inconsitent play and INT's are certainly part of his legacy.
If it was purely from a talent and stats perspective I would say that Eli should not get in when you look at his current resume. It's horribly inconsistent and the successful years almost look like aberrations at this point. For this era of quarterback Eli has a horrible qb rating (overrated), a low completion percentage, and a massive amounts of turnovers.
I really doubt that Eli gets shut out like Jim Plunkett - who was much less of an impact on those superbowl teams and never showed glimpes of Hall of Fame talent. Although when Eli retires it could be he is viewed as the worst HOF QB of his generation. Peyton, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Roethlisberger, and maybe even Flacco (scary thought) could go in before him. I don't think he will go in his first chance. If Eli stays on this current trend and other top QBs win superbowls he could be waiting a long time to get in to the hall.
THE HELL HE CAN'T!!
There are just so many storylines of the past decade that involve Eli...
-He and his brother are back to back Superbowl MVP's. Will that ever happen again?
-Between the two of them, they've got 3 Championships and MVP's, and they're not done. Two brothers in the same era with all that hardware? Will that ever happen again?
-First 10-6 Wildcard team to win a Superbowl, over an 18-0 team. Will that happen again?
-That David Tyree play will be on the highlight reel in 50 years with the immaculate reception and all of those other plays that will be 100 years old at that point.
-First 9-7 team to ever win a Superbowl.
-A stellar 2011 campaign where he put the team on his back, with the 27th ranked defense and 31st ranked rushing attack. 7 4th quarter comebacks that season and broke the 4th Quarter TD record that stood since Unitas.
-Both Superbowl wins over arguably the greatest coach and QB combo of the his generation.
-11-0 on the road in 2007.
-In both playoff runs, he beat the #1 and #2 seeds in the NFC at their house, and both times beat the #1 seed in the AFC.
-Two straight classic NFC Championship wins, one in Green Bay in record cold temps, one in San Fran in a monsoon where he took an extreme beating without turning the ball over.
These are not statistical feats, but as somebody else said... If you're relying solely on statistics, you're missing what makes him great.
Statistically, as Patrick said, it's close but he probably doesn't get in.
But in 20 years and beyond when you're telling the story of the NFL, you can't tell that story without Eli.
The point, however, is that stats are a excellent proxy for knowing how well a QB played (as it happens, they seem to capture very well Eli's excellent 4th quarter play throughout his career - save this year). There a couple of games where stats fail us (see the NFC title game 07), but in general those QB's whose stats are excellent also tend to be the greatest winners. Eli might be an exception, but take someone like Ben. He's won as much as Eli has but he's generally been a better regular season QB too.
In reality, I think they are just part of the equation. There are things that can't be measured that go into it as well, that's what makes this such an emotional game.
Fans don't vote on the HOF.
HOF will always be a number game, and even though Eli will have yards and TDs by the end of his career, he wont have the prestigious QB Rating, which is probably he worst advanced stat in all of sports.
First of all, absolutely this season (and the 2nd half of last season) tarnishes both his legacy and his chances at the HoF.
Second, waaaayy too simplistic to blame QB rating on his Hall chances. Voters are also going to point to the lack of divisional titles (in what has been a mediocre division consistently since 2007), the regular season W/L record, and the lack of consistent playoff appearances.
Throw in the INTs... and he's on the outside looking in at this point.
Still has time to bounce back....
I wonder if he makes it to 200+ consecutive starts if that helps his merits.
For example, we always talk about how Manning has the SB's, but not the stats, so we put more emphasis on the wins.
Well, on the Dallas forum, Romo has great stats but no playoff wins, so obviously their stance most of the time is "look at his stats! He blows Eli away".
It's like this around the league. Fans will prop their guy up by whatever metric suits the argument, and tear the other guy down with whatever narrative fits that agenda.
Fans will always twist and turn statistics to fit their narrative.
That was my only point about fans.
When everyone else sees a pass sail yards past a wide open Hakeem Nicks in the end zone against Minneota or way over Brandon Meyers head in Chicago, this is the only place where the receivers get blamed with profanity-laced tirades. Most people watching those games just think it was a bad pass. Nobody else breaks down his interceptions frame by frame like the Zapruder film to see if there's a shred of evidence that the "blame" for the interception can be offloaded onto another Giants player or coach. They just say it was an interception.
Nobody mentions Eli Manning with the elite QBs in the NFL, except people on BBI. Nobody says that he'd be just like Aaron Rodgers if only he played in a different system. Charitable onlookers might view him as a fringe top 10 QB in some seasons. People who are really paying attention would give him a lot of credit for his performance in 2011. But people who look at his career as a whole would see a QB who played a lot of games, threw a lot of passes, accumulated a lot of career stats, and performed at an OK level for most of his career. A guy who may have been at near the top of his position for 1 year and was otherwise a cut or two below (or much farther below at times such as this year). On BBI, people stopped using stats to evaluate QBs in 2004. This practice was not adopted outside of BBI. People still use stats.
There are some people, both on BBI and in the real world, who assign QBs large amounts of credit and blame for the accomplishments and failures of the team. Among those people Eli might be a borderline HoF candidate. For those that look at the entire body of work, it's very difficult to see how Eli (or Roethlisberger for that matter) would get anywhere near the HoF considering that they were rarely, if ever, in the top 20% of players at their position during their careers.
Jerry in DC : 7:34 pm : link
in the real world were never anywhere close to where they were on BBI. BBI is really like some kind of alternate universe when it comes to Eli Manning.
Because I recall several instances after Superbowl 46 where this very subject was debated in the national media by analysts on both the NFL Network and ESPN.
Here is just one instance.
Link - ( New Window )
Phil Simms thinks so. Simms -- another quarterback who led the New York Giants to the Super Bowl -- believes Big Blue's second title in five years already puts Manning and coach Tom Coughlin in Canton.
"Here we were five years ago, before the Giants won their first Super Bowl, and all the talk that year was maybe the Giants need to bring another quarterback in and Tom Coughlin's in trouble," Simms told USA Today.
"Now they both absolutely one day will go in the Hall of Fame."
Manning has two titles to his name, the same as John Elway, Bart Starr, Bob Griese and Roger Staubach. All four of those men are enshrined in Canton.
"Eli has been a real clutch quarterback," Simms said. "When you talk about why, never underestimate who he plays for and how he's been groomed."
Simms is right about Coughlin, too. Manning has been extremely fortunate to play his entire career under one coach, a man who believed in him and stayed patient during the necessary growing pains.
Now both Manning and Coughlin are reaping the rewards of that patience and dedication. If both go to Canton, they should go together.
8/2/12 - ( New Window )
But seasons like this certainly work against him.
After all, few remember his first three years of mediocrity, or the league-high 25 interceptions he threw in 2010, or the boneheaded flip he tossed while falling into the welcoming arms of a Bengal earlier this season. When you think of Manning, you see him ending Brett Favre's Green Bay career by firing darts through the black-ice Lambeau air, the heave to Tyree, the dime to Manningham, his redefining of not only his career but also Coughlin's. You recognize greatness not in hitting every shot, just the ones that matter most.
ESPN - ( New Window )
Again.. this is now what BBI thinks. We are dealing with the people who actually get a vote.
2005 - Tied with 3 other players with 24 TDs behind Palmer, Brady, Peyton. 5th in passing yardage. INTs are still only a minor issue given early career.
2006 - Tied with Tom Brady at 24 TDs behind Peyton, Palmer, Brees, Bulger. 11th in yardage. Again, INTs still only a minor issue.
2007 - INTs become a major problem. League starts a major jump in passing TDs. Eli only has 23 to put him at #11. 12th in yards. 20 INTs that year. Fortunately includes legendary playoff run.
2008 - First year he ever really sits back and lets the run game power through everyone. 21 TDs, good for #11. 17th in yards. Being so conservative though, career low 10 INTs. Shitty game against the eagles in the playoffs.
2009 - Passing TD explosion continues, 27 TDs, tied with Cutler at #8, 9. 10th in yardage but passes for 4000 yards.
2010 - INTs galore but also 4th in TDs with 31 behind Brady, Peyton, Brees. Another 4000 yard year, 5th in yards. The dodge'd season.
2011 - Doesn't need defending but.. Tied with Ryan for 29 TDs behind Brees, Rodgers, Brady, Stafford, Romo. 4th in yards, 70 from 5000. The stuff of legends putting a team on his back. Broke a 4th quarter TD record held since Unitas. And again helped defeat the GOAT in this era in the SB.
2012 - Begins the cliff fall. Tied with 4 others at 26, behind 8 other QBs. 12th in yards, didn't hit 4000.
2013 - No description needed.
His play has been bad of late but as Phil in WNY pointed out earlier in the thread, I wouldn't bet against the guy coming back and getting that third ring and final nail in the coffin. He's proven fully capable of scoring points with the best of them and he has plenty of football in him yet.
Will the keepers of Canton call Eli Manning clutch or just lucky?
This story appears in ESPN The Magazine's Dec. 24 Hall of Fame Issue. Subscribe today!
AS I WATCHED the Giants alternately rise, fall and then rise again through yet another season, I took to YouTube in a desperate search for clues about Eli Manning. Of all the quarterbacks I've gotten to know over the years, Manning may be the most interesting. While the two-time Super Bowl champion and two-time Super Bowl MVP at times seems like a lock for the Hall of Fame, his play is absurdly inconsistent, lacking the ethereal stats of other potentially Canton-bound passers -- including the one whose last name he shares.
On YouTube (after being momentarily distracted by a Springsteen clip and a thing about whales), I found a home video shot and narrated by Archie Manning. Peyton and Eli are shooting baskets in the backyard court of their New Orleans home. Eli is 7, maybe 8, and he's missing every way possible -- short, long, off the top of the rim, off the bottom, off air. Peyton rebounds and feeds his younger brother after every shot; Eli hits a few but clangs most. It's painful to watch, yet Eli never seems discouraged. He just keeps firing. Finally, Peyton grabs a ball and steps to what appears to be the farthest and toughest shot on the Manning family court, mere inches from the doorstep. He drains it. Suddenly motivated, Eli steps to his brother's spot and shoots without hesitation. Money. "Nice shot, E," Archie says.
The whole scene seems prescient yet familiar, but it doesn't begin to answer the question of whether Manning is a Hall of Famer, because that can't actually be answered yet. He is only 31 and in his ninth season, his career probably halfway done. But for a non-doper, non-cheater, non-bettor and non-head case, nobody in sports finds himself in the middle of the is-he-or-isn't-he debate more than Manning. The reasons that he and not a quarterback of similar accomplishments -- like, say, Ben Roethlisberger -- sparks such an argument are partially knee-jerk: the comparisons with Peyton, the media stature of New York. But it's mostly because the question of Manning's Canton candidacy is mainly theological, revealing much more about one's definition of a Hall of Famer than about Manning specifically. Yet because of the way he plays, this debate applies only to him: Can you be a Hall of Famer if you're a mortal quarterback during the regular season but an immortal one in the playoffs?
In February, riding the rush of Manning's second punking of the Patriots in the Super Bowl in five years, the case for his bronze bust seemed closed. "Absolutely," Phil Simms said. The New York Post opined, "He is no longer Elite Eli. He is Hall of Fame Eli." ProFootballTalk wrote that "even without another Super Bowl title, Eli will make it into the Hall of Fame." And for the first six weeks of this season, Manning seemed to validate every statement, playing at a level eclipsed only by Matt Ryan.
But in the four weeks that followed, Manning's play was at one point "foolish," as Giants head coach Tom Coughlin put it. He threw only one touchdown pass and six picks. His backers inevitably began to backtrack. Simms: "He's not one of the elites." The Newark Star-Ledger called his play "Sanchezesque." Now rounding out the season, the Giants are closing in on that low-seeded playoff spot where they'll have to win on the road to make it to the Super Bowl, where Manning's pedestrian regular-season numbers (58 percent winning percentage, 1.4:1 TD:INT ratio, 82 passer rating) give way to postseason stats (72 percent winning percentage, 2.1:1 TD:INT ratio, 89 passer rating) that all rank in the top 10 all time. And of course, no stat measures the stones required to throw deep to David Tyree after untangling oneself from the Patriots front four in Super Bowl XLII, or to drop a bomb to Mario Manningham into a hole few quarterbacks can conceive of, much less capitalize on.
But the YouTube video and the dozens of games I've seen Manning play have crystallized my pet theory on him. It's hard to define the multiple traits the 23 modern-era quarterbacks enshrined in Canton share, not to mention the four or five playing today who are certain to join them. But one thing is a constant: They never forget. Terry Bradshaw never forgot that people called him dumb. Joe Montana, Dan Marino, Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers never forgot their draft-day slides. Steve Young never forgot his years as a backup. John Elway and Peyton never forgot the folks who said they couldn't win the big one. Using a mix of ruthlessness, talent and audacity and a combination of both deluded and earned confidence, they used those dark memories to fuel transcendent careers.
Eli Manning, on the other hand, always forgets. He forgets bad throws, bad games -- even bad months. Perhaps he inherited this ability to let go from his mom, Olivia, who never seems fazed during her sons' games, while Archie paces and fidgets. Or perhaps, as Duke coach David Cutcliffe, who coached both Peyton and Eli in college and has become something of a career counselor for them, theorizes: "It's a coping mechanism for being in the Manning family, for having the expectations of his dad and his brothers. How can you just turn it off when you need to? There's no question that he might be the best ever at forgetting."
However it arrived, forgetting is Manning's singular genius. His regular seasons are his hits and misses; the Super Bowl is the toughest shot that he always sinks unburdened by the fear of failure, having somehow scrubbed his memory. Of course, sitting at his locker on a late November afternoon, he can't explain how he's able to forget when I ask him about it. "You know, uh, obviously, uh, you know. You, uh, learn from your mistakes. Uh, you know, learn from a bad play. Remember the good ones; everything else you forget."
This is just how his mind works. Most quarterbacks strive to think like coaches; Manning thinks like a cornerback -- finding greatness in his ability to change not only a game's momentum but his own. Though Manning knows the Giants offense as well as a coach and can audible at the line of scrimmage with the best of them, Ernie Accorsi, the GM who traded for the quarterback out of Ole Miss on draft day, was onto something in 2002 when he wrote in his scouting report, "This is a guy you should just let play."
In tight situations, Manning's ability to forget allows him to not only just play but play free of self-consciousness. As Ryan says with envy, "He has no conscience." Against the Redskins in October, Manning entered the huddle in a familiar spot: trailing 23-20 with 1:32 left, having thrown two interceptions and been outplayed by Robert Griffin III. "All we gotta do is win the game," he joked to teammates. And predictably, that's exactly all he did, loosening a 77-yard touchdown pass to Victor Cruz on the second play of the drive, the 23rd fourth-quarter comeback win of his career. "It's not something to be totally proud of -- that you can bounce back after a bad play," Manning says, laughing at himself, which he does easily and often. "You try not to have bad games or bad plays. But that's part of football, and you can't let it get you down."
Not that Manning is immune to being down. After a misfire, he'll allow himself the patented Manning head bob and shoulder tug. But he doesn't stay down -- something not only great QBs but all pro athletes struggle with, no matter how hard they try to fake it for the cameras. So when teammates ask Manning for help, what they really want to know is how to think like he does. Earlier this season, kicker Lawrence Tynes had a lousy practice. Manning has rallied from many of them. So Tynes asked him, "If you have a bad day, what do you do to combat that?"
"Well, you've got nine years of game film," Eli shrugged. So Tynes watched big kicks from throughout his career, an elementary method of positive reinforcement -- forgetting disguised as reminding -- and his confidence flooded back. As backup quarterback David Carr, a former No. 1 pick who is as gifted as Manning in every way except for his ability to flush bad plays, says, "Eli really is that simple. And he's onto something."
Manning really is a simple guy. He married his college sweetheart, the former Abby McGrew. They have a toddler daughter, Ava. He has a King Charles Cavalier named Chester, whom he trotted up and down seven flights of stairs in the dark- ness of his Hoboken apartment building during Hurricane Sandy so Chester could pee. He still wears his hair in the official style of the Ole Miss male, ungelled and blanketing his forehead. He stars in corny Toyota commercials, and yes, he drives a Toyota truck.
The rare excesses look awkward -- and Manning knows it. One day this past spring, Cooper Manning visited his youngest brother, who decided to take him for a spin in his 2012 Corvette, a spoil of being Super Bowl MVP. Eli in a penis car? "You look like an idiot," Cooper said. Eli laughed, agreed, then hit the gas. "He goes through life in a very balanced way," Cooper says -- maybe the first time that any potential Hall of Famer has ever been commended for his work/life balance. But as a kid, Eli never dreamed of quarterbacking in the NFL. He played football because it was the family business and became elite not only by wringing the most out of his gifts and working his ass off but by keeping the sport in its place. A loss on game day might ruin his night but not his life. "That's his greatest asset," Cooper says. "Just a little less pressure that he puts on himself."
But it usually doesn't come to that. Each Friday, Manning hosts a film session for his receivers to outline opponents' wrinkles in painstaking detail. Before the Giants played the Bengals in Week 10, rookie receiver Rueben Randle entered late. Eli asked why. "Had to do some extra work," Randle said. Manning may keep things simple, but he is all business. "Who's gonna throw you a touchdown -- me or the guy you're doing extra work with?" Manning said. But on game day, Manning allows his receivers to just play too. Many future Hall of Famers, such as Brady, will sometimes cut off receivers who drop balls or botch routes. But Manning always tells his wideouts, "I'm gonna come back to you." He forgets his teammates' errors like he forgets his own. "I need them to have faith in me," he says, "and I'll have faith in them."
When judging candidates, though, Hall of Fame voters want sustained greatness, not faith, not balance, not a short memory. By the time he retires, Manning could rank in the top five in yards and touchdowns, rankings that might not hold thanks to the explosion of passing stats in the NFL's aerial age. But Canton has plenty of quarterbacks -- Sonny Jurgensen, Warren Moon - -who have produced prolific numbers but lack a defining postseason moment. Manning's career is defined by postseason moments, which has made fans nearly as forgetful as he is.
After all, few remember his first three years of mediocrity, or the league-high 25 interceptions he threw in 2010, or the boneheaded flip he tossed while falling into the welcoming arms of a Bengal earlier this season. When you think of Manning, you see him ending Brett Favre's Green Bay career by firing darts through the black-ice Lambeau air, the heave to Tyree, the dime to Manningham, his redefining of not only his career but also Coughlin's. You recognize greatness not in hitting every shot, just the ones that matter most.
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As far as being the very best, Kelley & Moon got in w/out being the best compared to several of their contemporaries. Eli doesn't have to be 1 of the 5 best QBs ever a la Brady & Peyton & possibly Brees & Rodgers when all is said & done to make the HOF. Comparing Eli or his eligibility for the HOF to Montana as 1 poster did is utterly assinine. Montana had the best WR ever, a ridiculous OL, TE, RBs, defense & coaches his entire 49er career & few players changed from year to year like they do now; Montana's teams were shitloads better all around than what Eli has had.
As far as HOF QBs w/ seasons as bad as Eli:
Bradshaw:
His regular season career QBR was 70.9. He threw 212 TDs to 210 INTs w/ a 5.4 INT%. He's in the HOF solely thanx to playoffs & SBs.
1st yr: 6/24 TD/INT 30.4 QBR
2nd yr: 13/22 59.7
4th: 10/15 54.5
7th: 65.4 QBR
8th: 17/19 71.4 QBR
Favre: career 3.3 INT%
2010 11/19 69.9
2005: 20/29 70.9
1993: 19/24 72.2
Brees:
2003: 11/15 67.5
Fouts:
last 2 years:
16/22 71.4
10/15 70.9
Staubach:
1974: 11/15 68.4 & the team still went 8-6, proving (of course unfortunately) how good the rest of the team was.
Unitas:
The last 6 of his 17 years sucked royally, albeit he was injured most of them. Career 4.9 INT%
1961: 16/24 66.1
1966: 20/24 74
1969: 12/20 64 (13 games)
1970: 14/18 65.1
Eli's career INT% is 3.4, only .1 worse than Favre. Eli compared to Favre otherwise: 4.6 / 5 TD%, 58.6 / 62 comp.%, both 7.1 Y/A.
Sooo, 1 real bad season won't derail Eli's chances based on past HOF QBs. He just has some making up do do. With a better team - particularly OL & several fewer than 6 starting RBs a season - I think he'll do that.
The fact is his career isn't over. If he sucks it up the next coupel of years, or is avg, a playoff apearance or two and does nothing with them, then I dont think he gets in.If he comes back strong and puts this behind him, I don't think it matters. As a stand alone season, yes, it hurts his chances. There is the whole " Eli is a gomer" thing, lack of passion, west coast spite at the draft day trade and how it went down.People loved to hate on Eli till they couldn't. Give them an excuse and they will.He is no lock
My personal opinion is he has another Super Bowl win in him.
Whether he lives up to it or not , I think, is what ultimately will decide if he gets in .I don't see the inconsistency ever really changing. He will continue to have up and down years.One more Super bowl and they can't keep him out.In the end it comes down to does he still have that fire in his balls,that "screw you" attitude we know he has, but only lets show with his play on the field.
Jerry in DC : 12/16/2013 7:34 pm : link : reply
in the real world were never anywhere close to where they were on BBI. BBI is really like some kind of alternate universe when it comes to Eli Manning.
When everyone else sees a pass sail yards past a wide open Hakeem Nicks in the end zone against Minneota or way over Brandon Meyers head in Chicago, this is the only place where the receivers get blamed with profanity-laced tirades. Most people watching those games just think it was a bad pass. Nobody else breaks down his interceptions frame by frame like the Zapruder film to see if there's a shred of evidence that the "blame" for the interception can be offloaded onto another Giants player or coach. They just say it was an interception.
Nobody mentions Eli Manning with the elite QBs in the NFL, except people on BBI. Nobody says that he'd be just like Aaron Rodgers if only he played in a different system. Charitable onlookers might view him as a fringe top 10 QB in some seasons. People who are really paying attention would give him a lot of credit for his performance in 2011. But people who look at his career as a whole would see a QB who played a lot of games, threw a lot of passes, accumulated a lot of career stats, and performed at an OK level for most of his career. A guy who may have been at near the top of his position for 1 year and was otherwise a cut or two below (or much farther below at times such as this year). On BBI, people stopped using stats to evaluate QBs in 2004. This practice was not adopted outside of BBI. People still use stats.
There are some people, both on BBI and in the real world, who assign QBs large amounts of credit and blame for the accomplishments and failures of the team. Among those people Eli might be a borderline HoF candidate. For those that look at the entire body of work, it's very difficult to see how Eli (or Roethlisberger for that matter) would get anywhere near the HoF considering that they were rarely, if ever, in the top 20% of players at their position during their careers.
And everybody defending Eli's chance at the HOF right now are pissing into the wind. Obviously that can change, one thing Eli has shown, like Favre, is tremendous durability. That's very rare.
The discussion on whether Eli belongs in the HOF isn't BBI fiction, as much as Jerry tries to paint it that way.
The fact of the matter is, the conversation has happened outside of Giants fans and BBI. Look no further than the articles I posted above. And there are plenty more.
The fact that they are even having the discussion about Eli at the midway point of his career says something. He's likely got another five years to go, as well.
He may not be in right now, but to act like this is some Giants fan, made up fantasy... Well, that's the stance that's not rooted in reality. Eli is definately in the conversation.
And Eli's stats haven't been 'sub par'. EricJ continues his streak of idiocy.
People want to point out the 2 rings as proof of greatness. What about the approximately 50% making the playoffs? Is that what great QB's do? only make the playoffs half the time? 4 out of 5 non playoffs recently. During those 2 runs, Eli was not the defining player on the team. It was a team effort. He was a big part of those teams, but he wasn't supremely outstanding. Same thing with his 2 SB MVP's. Team effort, but you gotta give the title to someone, so...
Has he ever sniffed a seasonal MVP? He's always been a dark horse candidate, and nothing more.
So, is being an overall good QB enough to get into the hall?
People are right when they say voting is somewhat sentimental. Eli comes out on the losing end here. He's a Manning. Hooray, that improved his draft status. After that, though, he's been playing in the shadow of big brother. Bro beats him every time head to head. beats him in stats, beats him in personality, beats him in everything but the ring department. Ask anyone who they'd rather have as a QB from start to finish, and the overwhelming vast majority would say Peyton. That shouldn't take away HOF votes from Eli. They're two different players. But Eli will forever be in the shadow, and that will take away votes.
And Eli's stats haven't been 'sub par'. EricJ continues his streak of idiocy.
But if we're talking about consistency, you have to admit Eric is a lock for the IHoF.
Could get in on the veterans ticket, because thats where his 2SB MVPs will be respected
lol...the ball is clearly out of his hands by 5 feet
a good win ratio. multiple 4th quarter comebacks
several bad years and lead in interceptions...but doesnt favre hold the record for ints?
But this entire argument is moot if he wins one more title. No way he doesn't get in with 3 rings.