I voted for #2 -- Coach returns with added year, and a new OC.
The Giants don't want TC on lame duck status. They generally don't operate that way. The new OC should be hired with the implicit (or explicit) understanding that he's got the inside track as the new Head Coach. A team with a 68 year old HC needs a line of succession in place.
If you put a gun to my head, I would predict 2. Doesn't mean he'll coach that second year, but Giants don't like, and wouldn't want Coughlin to coach on a, one-year deal.
but it just seems odd to extend a coach after a year like this. Unfortunately they would have to in order to land a decent OC.
However, my expectation is that Coughlin, Gillbride and Fewell come back next year and Quinn is the only one who goes.
Anyone thinking he is going to throw Gilbride under the bus and get better coordinators is smoking something. TC may gotten flexible on some things during the SB run but he is still stubborn to a fault on a number of areas related to the on field product namely the offense. The Giants had to fire Tim Lewis, Bill Sheridan, and John Hufnagel over Coughlins objections because he saw no reason to. Coughlins game plans have become a bit stale and boom or bust the last few years.
The time has come for change. Keeping TC makes no sense. But that said Reese needs to also take a long look at his philosophy and operation moving forward.
out with the old, in with the new.
should hire TC if it didn't work out here...
In the end most agree he will be back but it's a real unknown if he'd actually agree to a suggestion of bringing in a new OC from the outside and firing KG. Not sure that JM would demand he'd do it or if TC would agree to it..
Giants never allow coach to start a season in last year of contract so they'd have to extend him at least 1 year which could be a waste.. I don't really get taht somehow beating the skins by double digits means a lot. We finished strongly whipping up an eagle team in last game of 2012 that momentum really carried over! in other words there should be enough evidence by now that the final 2 shouldn't mean a lot 1 way or the other.. Again most agree he is back but it's not that crazy a discussion over wheather now is the time to part ways as E enters the final third of his career. If O-line is fixed no reason to think we can't be very competitive next year but it will be fascinating to see how this plays out. It could be nothing more than a new special teams coach or an entirely new staff, stay tuned
(and it's good that I am not) I'd choose #6; bring Tom upstairs to an exec position and give him input (one vote) as to who the next coach would be. (I think he would be more like Elway rather than Jerry Jones as a part of management, and he still has a lot of football knowledge to impart.)
I'd also fire Keven M., Ryan and Quinn and tell all of the other staff they will serve (or not) at the pleasure of the new coach.
would vote for #5 after the past 2 seasons?
One is unworkable. Makes him a lame duck. And who would come here for one year as OC
Two is stupid. There is a major overhaul in the offing here. Lets not kid ourselves. Can you name one sector (OL, DL, RB, etc) on this team that isn't loaded with personnel question marks? TC is too old for that IMO.
4 and 5 are unacceptable.
After 4 DefCos (3 of which were not good) do you want TC to pick a fifth?
Tom Coughlin is not the coach of the New York Giants next year. But there will be some sort of shake-up so management and fans can say "at least we did something".
What matters this off-season is the draft (and maybe a decent C/G in FA). Without some hits in that area, nothing else matters.
that has made this season bearable is the fact that I believed it would be the end of this horrible offensive system (and most know I hated this system even when it was clicking on all cylinders). If we keep Killdrive I may not be able to watch this team next year.
have enjoyed these two Super Bowls. Show some fucking respect.
If Coughlin is brought back the composition of his staff should be up to him.
Coughlin has led this team to 2 SBs.
The OC MUST be replaced.
The new OC should have at least 2 years to attract the best candidate to come here.
all the time and I enjoyed both Super Bowl. Guess I'm not a deserving fan lol. I've never thought he was a good coach and still don't.
if he is doing a bad job hiring and managing his staff he needs to be replaced
Do we lose all self control and curse when people disagree with us? Pipe down.
Hey Terps, you need to quit sugar-coating everything.
(Unless they upset Detroit this week, which they most likely will not). Possibly even 2-14. Ouch. As horrid as that is, it is overwhelmingly due to one thing: the O-line.
No QB/coach combo ever was competing in that Carolina game. The Dline was blowing up the Giants like they were being blocked by an elderly bridge club. Another Pugh-like hit in the draft and some money in FA (gotta restructure Eli, sorry pal) and I think this team bounces back.
Quicker passes on slants and whatnot would help too. Victor Cruz is not being used nearly as well as he could be. Coughlin & Co should be studying Wes Welker Pats tape and straight up stealing plays.
I may as well have said the sky is blue.
Saying it's time to move on at offensive coordinator or head coach is a perfectly valid opinion deserving of respect. Playing on a man's name and saying he was never a good coach...when that guy has had a major part in bringing a couple titles to the team you supposedly root for...that's just being a fucking moron.
But I would not be surprised if we don't see a new DC also...I know Defense was the least of our issues, but a clean sweep outside of TC may be in the cards
this team had on offense, it would have been harder to NOT be a good offense than it was to be a good offense. I give credit for those season where credit is due. And do I think we won either of those Super Bowls because of Gilbride. You've got to be kidding me.
if this is TC's offense?
Aren't you just bringing in a new name to run the same basic offense?
There needs to be one scalp, and Quinn is an easy scapegoat. Again, the main question is even if they extend TC, what coordinator will take either of the jobs knowing the extension doesn't change anything? The HCIW opens all sorts of questions re the Rooney Rule.
Again, either clean house now or go down with the ship. No half-measures.
An don't let those SB trophies hit you on the way out.
How about one of the Mikes - Shanahan or Tomlin as HC!
Good stand. I feel a lot of sympathy for KG. I don't think this O has been outside the top half in total yards since Eli's second season which is a very impressive achievement. He was also able to do this with a smashmouth O and an Air Eli O.
I'd like to see the staff freshened up under KG with a big-time QB coach but ultimately I don't think KG became a bad coach over night.
What we need is a refresh of the playing staff. Upgrades across the interior OL and TE positions will go a long way to fixing this O. Especially as Pugh develops and Beatty hopefully bounces back.
If you have the perfect personnel for his system AND they've been in the system for a number of years, then it could work great. However, there are WAY too many variables for it to work well. He has also shown NO ability to adjust his scheme at all to work best with the personnel he has. You also rarely see in game or even game to game adjustments from this offense.
To me, the difference between great coaches and average coaches is that ability to make the necessary adjustments to be successful with what you're given. Gilbride simply does not, and have never had that ability and that's why I've never been as enamored with him as many on this site. When his offense works it could be a thing of beauty but it's always been way too inconsistent b/c it relies on way too many variables needing to be perfect.
no matter what they do with the coaches. Seems like a perfect time to make a HC and staff change. There likely won't be as large a turnover after next season and this gives a new regime a chance to stock the type of players they want and need for what they want to run.
Gilbride made a top offense in two different styles, a more running oriented one and a completely passing oriented one. This disproves the theory that Gilbride only has one mode and players be damned. IMO, Gilbride is greatly under appreciated here. He also created a top offense in Houston, so he's done it numerous times. The guy will not be out of work long.
Also to say that he had the players is a weak argument. He helped pick those players. Its like saying Belicheck is just good because he has the players, after all he sucked in Cleveland right? Sure players are a part of it, but you can't just discredit anyones success because he has the employees. Of course you need the right players, but its howyou selected them, and how you used them.
there are far more who didn't like him when he was hired. Of that group, there are two ways to go.
(1) Admit you were wrong.
(2) Wait till he seems vulnerable, ignore the success under him and say "I told you so."
I am in category 1. It doesn't mean I ever gained a love for him. But his success has not been debateable. This is a results business and you do not win two Super Bowls despite your OC. I could explain some of the substantive reasons why I was wrong but I don't see the point. Haters gonna hate.
senerios is #5. Just think they will not knee jerk to what happened this season
of 3. complain about him even during his successful seasons like me. I didn't wait until now until I could say "I told you so" (which I'm still not saying). I just never liked his coaching style of offense system.
Re: English's statement of him running 2 different offenses, that's simply not true. We've run the exact same scheme and much of the same playbook we just called more running plays at times than passing. When I say run a new offense I mean instead of running the same formations and route trees, change it up to take advantage of your strengths. Look at the Patriots as an example from the Moss years to the Gronk years.
That's not debatable.
But this idea he is Bill Walsh (I think bceagle made this point) is nuts. He's been fired everywhere he's been, has never been offered a HC job (NFL or college) since the Bills.
The idea he is untouchable is silly.
I said bring in a bright young offensive guy like Tom Clements to be an Assistant Head Coach/ Offensive Coordinator. While I think this would be the best scenario for the team... I'm not so sure Coughlin doesn't choose to walk away after this year. Watching his presser yesterday he was reading from his notes for pretty much his whole intro as he was talking about Detroit.
No matter how unfamiliar the foe, I've always been amazed at how TC would walk to the podium with nothing in hand and from memory recite in depth statistics and names or numbers of the opposition that he was facing this week. It's just a subtle nuance... But it jumped out at me as maybe he's taking his foot off the gas? Who could blame him?
I really don't want to see him go out like this. Maybe he's not going anywhere.. But the watching him yesterday made me think for the first time... Maybe he's thinking about spending more time with the grand kids.
It also dawned on me... Knowing the family man that TC is... The team has some big decisions to make regarding Snee. That might be something that makes his decision to leave now rather than next year a little easier. Do you fight for son in law to get another year? Do you take yourself out of the equation?
It'll be an interesting Christmas at the Coughlin house.
yes. Or 3. Which Go Terps covered in his 11:36. The fucking morons.
so only fucking morons are able to recognize a weakness, especially in times when things are seemingly going great, that most can't understand? The offense has shown inconsistently for years...even when we were a top 10 offense. But we had so much talent (especially at oline) that we were able to be successful despite mediocre coaching on that side of the ball. But I guess you have to be a fucking moron to voice your opinion that goes against the grain. Only now that the cracks & flaws are blatantly obvious is it safe to share my opinion of Gilbride.
Could live with #2 if they add: Returns with a new DC as well"
Is not a pre-cursor for future success.
What happened in 2009/10/12/13 is a pre-cursor for future failure.
Simply, we here all preach the importance of not holding on to players a year or two past their prime. The same applys for coaches.
The ability to attract quality assistants is hindered by Coughlins situation if he remains.He certaintly won't be here in 5 years and 3 years from now he will be 70. Good for him that he *bristles* at the mention of age being a problem.
Mara jr. needs to learn from the mistakes his father made in terms of loyality. His job is to give the New York Football Giants the best chance to win every single year.
If the coaching staff resembles a body, cutting off the arm or foot and replacing is not the solution. Cut off the head.
Bring in a new head coach who's O cord will utilize Eli to the max. Bring in a D cord who will utilize speed and get to the QB. Bring in a ST coach who will find a scheme to have our KR/PR actually bring the ball out to the 30yd line consistently. Is it just me or is watching Randle return punts painful?
Basically, Shake the whole GD thing up. It is a necessary move right now. If they don't, in a few years, not only will the Giants be looking for another HC/Assistants- they very well may be looking for another QB.
Can you say 92,94,95,96,98,99 all over again?
that the Special Teams unit has never been this much of a liability. There have certainly been years where you could point to our ST unit as a strongly contributing factor towards at least 2 losses.
Fewell gets a job elsewhere.
I'd probably keep everyone but maybe revamp the offense.
was the OLine - is that the coaches' fault?
The oline has been deteriorating for 3 years now. They were the worst offensive line in football last year as well.
the proof is in the execution - first part of the season barely averaging 50 yards rushing
you would have to say the probability is pretty high that next year will be another rough season. Rookies and new FAs haven't fared exceptionally well in Coughlin/Gilbride's offensive system. There are some exceptions like the Black Unicorn but more often than not we've seen new guys struggle to master the scheme.
I don't want to see Coughlin suffer through another ugly season. The SBs will always be part of his legacy, but fans have short memories, and I'd rather he not roll the dice on a quick turnaround. Because the roster Reese handed him is truly a piece of crap.
Were people sleeping last season?
Don't forget we were also 32nd in the NFL in 2011 and last year David Diehl was ranked the worst offensive tackle in the league by PFF. The oline was a little bit better when Locklear replaced him but overall this oline has been putrid. Baas has been a terrible signing and Snee has been declining for each of the past 3 seasons. It's not like this should have been some huge surprise to the team or front office.
Shanahan is 62,I believe and Pete Carol is 60.
Does that make them young? TC shows no signs of being any older
than the 2 of them,IMO.
I just have no hope that will change.
Give him an extension and it's incentive not to make the playoffs.
OL is terrible...Gilbride is terrible but T.C. will fight to keep him you can be sure. This is rd 2.
Clearly he can't held acco8natble for the OL but he can be held accountable for the misreads by the receivers, poor play calling and numerous delay of game issues that he can't fix.
Throw in the empty backfield on third and short and the thirty yard passes and third and three and I think you have enough to move in a different direction. Gilbride can take his son with him...the receivers except for Cruz have been terrible this year in every way.I still can't belive that some here clamor for skill players in rd one after wathing this OL operate. Free agency will not be enough to fix that mess...and it is a mess.
is that you look at the situation similarly to how you evaluate players.
Coughlin won't be coaching here forever. Some even say his voice has turned into white noise. The offense clearly is not working. Cutting ties now to start a new process has, IMO, some relevent correlation to cutting a player a year too early rather than year too late.
Does anyone want to lose another year, should similar circumstances unfold next year? Then where does that put us...?
At least we'd have a fresh start next year, and building towards a new program, and new systems.
Selecting a new OC makes little sense. Coughlin designed this offense with Gilbride and to some degree Hufnagel's NE influences. Changing who calls the plays does not solve the inexcusable miscommunications this offense creates, nor the rhythmically-devoid, unfriendly confidence zapping it heaps on our QB.
To continue on that path, would be to waste another year of Eli's prime, never knowing what could be on the other side. I'd rather take the risk of getting a bright, young, energetic, flexible, and more player-relatable coach, who can tailor system's to our players' strengths... Not this round peg square hole stuff. I'm not sure there is a person on here who in 10 years has ever said, "This is the perfect system for Eli!"... Heck, even "great" would surmise. If it was, it'd be pretty obvious by now and stated as so. That alone is a red flag to me, the fact that in 10 years we can't identify if this is a good fit for Eli or not. I think that speaks to him superseding the scheme at times, but too many other times it dragging him to the bottom of the ocean. But I, and many others can easily say other systems are great fits for the likes of Brees, Rivers, Peyton, and much lesser guys, including Matt Freaking Flynn in GB. I think that may signal something is amiss here.
Look at film of Eli at Ole Miss... natural...rhythmic, drop back and let 'er rip, letting his talent/instinct take over. This system, with its multi-option routes, by it's very nature creates hesitation and inconsistency because there's too much room for QB-WR misinterpretation (too cerebral, too theoretical)... There is a very real chance your WR might not be where he's supposed to be all the time, or where you expect him to be. More obvious systems expose blame on QB's for not getting the ball to his guys. This system makes it doubly hard. The QB can still fuck up, but now WR's have an equal opportunity of messing up as well, doubling the chances of a bad situation, made possible by WR's who haven't made up their mind's decisively or "correctly" (same page) ... and Eli's supposed to trust that, reading body language? Maybe in occasional short doses, hot routes, etc... but I'm sorry FUCK THAT... Taking that into consideration, the other issues the system creates is provoking mechanical fuck ups... If you drop back 5 steps, and your trying to MAKE SURE which way the WR is going to break, how the hell does that not force you to hold onto the ball for one nano second too long if you're not sure? ... in a game of inches, precision, and lightning-decisions this allows for creating indecisiveness, poor throws, not in stride, back foot throws, all sorts of things... and if the QB-Receiver don't read the same thing, forget it. INT.
It is my humble opinion that enough is enough, and it's time for a change. TC is a great man, a great coach, but the combination of his systems and this team is not in any way shape or form the level of consistent success that it should be....
Can you imagine Brady, Brees, Manning, or Rodgers, playing full seasons and missing the playoffs 4 out of 5 years? The SB was amazing, but it was a 9-7 season... The consistency is alarming, and right now it's at an all-time low.
Something has to change. There was a part of me that wanted to preface that with I'm sorry, but I'm not anymore. To me, it's clear.
As far as I'm concerned the most important part is that the PR needs to be handled right, because TC deserves a respectful and proper send off, but it's time...It is time.
takes too much crap here. Under KG we've had the most prolific O we've ever had in my memory dating to the 70s. At its best, it's very hard to defend, and was good enough to win 2 championships. Last I checked, THAT was the goal of the whole damn league. So, it's not a question of "is this system good enough" or "can it be adapted to..." It's proven, over multiple years, at the highest levels of competition. As is TC. If there is just white noise, maybe the problem is on the receiver end and player change is more needed.
Eli is a drop back pocket passer. You MUST have at least an acceptable OL for him to operate -- allow the options to declare instead of rushing throws and hoping your on the same page. And he's really best when the play action pass is working. With this crappy OL and null running game most of the year, neither has been there. Eli's not going to protect his stats, he's gonna let it rip. And that leads to bad throws and INTs.
He's also not gotten much help from his backs and WRs. Nicks just is not the same player this year, even his capacity to win the ball in the air is not the same. Our backs and TEs have been so-so at best. (Man do I miss Black Unicorn.)
The Giants are same as it ever was under JF/EA or JR/TC - as your OL goes, so goes the Giants O.
You can bring in any friggin' system you want, if you can't protect your QB or establish the run, no system will work.
I'm not saying no other system CAN work or that KG is never at fault. (I personally HATE empty backfield on third and short.) Clearly other systems do if executed right. So, you can replace KG and TC too, and we might improve. We could hardly get worse. But, until you fix the glaring OL problem, no system will work. Right now our plan is:
1) Fail to protect our immobile QB
3) Big Success
Time to start over.
It has to happen sometime, and better to do it a year early than a year late.
same thing could have been argued after the 2006 season. Looked what happened the next season.
Gilbride, Fewell and Quinn gone?
A case could be made that the majority of the offense's problems are an OL with: 1) veterans that degraded faster than expected, 2) were hurt more than expected and 3) with rookies & replacements that were too few in number and too limited in talent. Personally, I think the schemes / adjustments are a big factor and they are all on Gilbride.
There have been injuries on defense (obviously JPP, Stevie Brown), but one could argue Fewell's defenses still don't know how to blitz and still seem confused in coverage.
I would like to bring Coughlin back with the 3 mentioned above replaced, with one or both of the coordinators being younger and being potential Coughlin replacements within 2 years.
and bringing Coughlin back.
I wouldn't have said this at the beginning of the season but now I really think our problem is player personnel. I never have liked Fewells style or philosophy, but when he had the players he won against the best teams and snagged a Lombardi . Obv iously Killdrive has a pair of those too.
Anyway, I used to be in the coaches suck camp of BBI but now I'm more inclined to be with the players suck contingent. Look at what difference Beason and Jenkins made. Will Hill, Andre Brown no Wilson on kick returns. The Nicks disappearance isn't Killdrive's fault. And on...
I get that coaches need to scheme up mismatches but I think this team has too many weaknesses for the coaches to hide.
The real problem is likely JR. Let's hope he can get back his mojo and get TC and Eli the players they need to win.
some token move just to appease the fans. Why do people believe that?
IMO, he's either here to stay for another year with his staff, or he's out. I don't think we're going to see a tweak here or a tweak there unless the guy is extended.
In comment 11405422
| The consistency is alarming, and right now it's at an all-time low.
I have to disagree. The offense has been more consistent this season than any other under Coughlin and Gilbride. It has consistently sucked week in and week out, but it has been consistent in that regard.
#6 KG retires. Quinn is not renewed. Coughlin stays. Fewell stays. Sullivan or Garrett is the new OC and maybe the new QB coach. Ryan is re-assigned.
#7 Quinn and Fewell are not renewed. KG stays. Coughlin stays.
#8 KG stays. Quinn leaves. Fewell stays. Ryan is re-assigned. Garrett or Sullivan is the new QB coach.
#9 Reese leaves. Coughlin is the new GM and HC for one more year while seeking a successor. Everyone else stays.
I think Fewell needs to go more than KG
in Super Bowl 42. Let's not give Gilbride too much credit for that Super Bowl win.
that's easy: whoever decided to keep Snee and Diehl this year and whoever decided to restructure Baas so that he could not be cut without losing cap money.
My hunch is that these were group decisions made by Reese, Coughlin and Mara (and to a lesser extent KG). And that's why they there was such paralysis when it came to acknowledging that these 3 guys were done: the decisions were made collectively and thus everyone had a stake in being proven "right" that these OL still had it.
to me, when this offense is clicking and working, the Giants win Super Bowls...its the style of offense that truly can be "uncoverable" when its on...when its off, its really off.
Its off this year. Without this style of offense, however, do the Giants win two super bowls? Perhaps it was this system that gave the Giants an edge.
Also, I don't think the new rules are helping TC. TC might have been a cut above the rest due to his attention to detail and the amount of detail necessary for execution- with less OTA's and practice, its a problem.
feel Coughlin resigns, Wow!
How about, they rebuild offensive line, and replace Fewell.
In comment 11405030
So do I.
in regards to veterans. But I do think TC has such an affinity for the guys who helped him win, that he can't be trusted to make those hard moves in dumping them.
While I would prefer #3 (step down), I think #2 (stay with extension & new OC) is most likely. I don't see how #1 (stay with no extension & new OC) could work... what quality OC would agree to join the team under those circumstances? #5 (stay with no changes) might result in a revolt by the fans.
As much as I've killed Tom Quinn in the past, the aftermath of the Matt Dodge situation made me realize that a coach shouldn't be expected to upgrade trash. The lack of quality performers at the bottom of this roster is why the special teams looks like garbage, not Quinn.
Director of Football like Parcells was in Miami and let him hire his replacement. Take the personnel decisions away from Reese, Ross and Chris Mara if he is culpable in this mess.
A HOF Coach, a great man. If the team truly thinks they will be competitive this coming season, keep him and the whole staff.
Problem is, the team has been getting blown out since the middle of last season. The QB and the star DE have had awful seasons and have lost confidence in themselves. Not sure it is TC's fault, the roster is awful.
I think the front office is to blame and the Mara's need to take a long look at how they making personnel decisions. Maybe its time to part ways with Reese & Co. and let the new GM make the call on the coaching staff.
All of this is a very tough call.
because the owners give lip service, but are not compelled to do anything unless it affects their profits.