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How the Giants have faired in rounds 4-7 since 2003

Rosie Brown HOF75 : 12/19/2013 1:50 pm
I have been reading this board most days for about 8 years. This is my first post. In the late 50's Rosie Brown use to give my boss a few of his tickets to 3-4 games a year. Rosie was a first class guy and proud to use his name in my handle.

I'm going to state my opinion on hits and misses for two 5 year time periods. 2003 to 2007 was the Ernie Accorsi/Jerry Reese period. I am aware that Ernie left in mid January of the 2007 and wasn't at the draft in 2007. My belief is that the scouts, organization and methodologies at the time of the 2007 draft had Accorsi's fingerprints on it.

2008-2012 is the Jerry Reese/Marc Ross VP of Player Evaluation plus Chris Mara as the Senior VP of Player Evaluation. As a fan it is not possible to know how much weight each man's opinion carries is the draft process. We also don't know how much the position coaches opinions weigh in the draft process. We really don't know if Simtim was Tom Coughlin's pick or not. It may be that so many people are involved that almost no one believes they are responsible. I believe the Giants have drafted poorly (particularly in the mid and late rounds)over the past 5 years and this is one of the major reasons for our poor showing this year.

In my opinion Jerry Reese and John Mara are responsible for this failure.

I think it was Bob Kraft who said "it's not your best 15 players but your worst 15 players who determine how our team does on the field".

2003-2007
Hits
Zak DeOssie
Barry Cofield
Brandon Jacobs
Kevin Boss
Gibril Wilson
David Diehl
Michael Johnson(not a star but 159 tackles not bad for a 7th rounder)
Frank Walker
Ahmad Bradshaw
David Tyree
Reggie Torbor (150+ tackles)

Misses
Roderick Babers
Guy Whimper (still playing)
2005 5th round pick to San Diego (could be considered a hit depending how you value Eli's contribution)
Adam Koets
Charlie Peprah
Eric Moore
Jamaar Taylor
Willie Ponder
Gerrick McPhearson
Drew Strojny
Isaac Hilton

2008-2012
Hits
Jonathan Goff (earned starter status when an injury took him out)
Jacquian Williams (154 tackles for a 7th round pick)

Misses
Adrien Robinson(early call but really hasn't seen the field in 2 years)
James Brewer(starting due to injury but could get Eli killed.)
Phillip Dillard
Travis Beckum
Bryan Kehl
Brandon Mosley
Greg Jones
Mitch Petrus
Andre Brown (left as a miss and returned after 5-6 teams as a hit)
Matt McCants
Tyler Sash
Adrian Tracy
Rhett Bomar
Marcus Kuhn (9 tackles severe leg injury)
Matt Dodge
Andre Woodson

When I see Jerry trading up to draft Jernigan or Nassib it drives me crazy. There's a lot of solid players to be found after the first 3 picks.

I am sure some or many of you will have different opinions on the players listed above. This is my effort to point out how poorly the Giants have done in the later rounds over the past 5 years. I tried to be as objective as I could.
Cheers,
Bob
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Kevin Boss actually is a Reese hit  
Dave in Buffalo : 12/19/2013 3:57 pm : link
I remember a post '07 Superbowl interview where Accorsi asked Reese about how he found him.

I think the quote was, "where did you dig him up from".
.  
arcarsenal : 12/19/2013 4:02 pm : link
I have no issue with the idea that maybe we're not getting enough productivity in the mid-late rounds of the draft. It's certainly a fair question. It's just hard for me to really opine on it or know whether we truly are getting less bang than the average team there or if it's simply a perception bias because without doing fairly extensive research, I have no way of putting our picks in any sort of context.

I will say this, though. We're pretty consistently hitting on our early picks and I think that's extremely important.

2007: Ross, Smith
2008: Phillips, Thomas
2009: Nicks
2010: JPP, LinJo
2011: Prince
2012: Wilson, Randle
2013: Pugh, Hankins

Sintim and Austin are the only clear busts/bad selections. The rest all contributed to championships or are contributing now & will contribute in the future. Wilson is still a "?" but I think it's completely unfair to call him a bad pick right now. Verdict still out, though. Certainly.
How about this analysis  
oldutican : 12/19/2013 4:14 pm : link
The NFL estimates the average NFL career lasts 6 years. So that means on average every 53-man roster has 8 to 9 players in their first season playing in the NFL. So for a team to succeed, it has to find players in the middle rounds.
If a 4-7 rd player stays in league for 6-7 years or plays as a starter  
Jupiter : 12/19/2013 4:33 pm : link
you can't call him a "miss". Whimper isn't a miss any more than Tyree or Frank Walker are hits.

And you can't call a player who was developing for 3 years, projected to maybe be a starter but get injured, a "miss". That has to be "undecided".
This is why our Special teams Suck...  
mvftw : 12/19/2013 4:38 pm : link
Beside Quinn, these players make up the ST squad...
You are skewing the picture by grouping 2007 with 2003-2006.  
Big Blue Blogger : 12/19/2013 4:46 pm : link
If you're comparing Reese to Ross, it's fine. If you're Comparing Accorsi+Reese to Reese+Ross, take 2007 out altogether. Ernie was gone. Besides, he does not appear to have played a big role in the later rounds after Reese took over the draft in 2003. Giving him any sort of credit for Kevin Boss and Ahmad Bradshaw is absurd. I doubt he knew who those guys were.

By the way, speaking of 2007: DeOssie is a miss, and it's not even debatable. He was drafted as a linebacker. Nobody drafts a long-snapper, let alone in the fourth round. I love the guy, but he was a terrible draft pick.

Recent evidence  
TMS : 12/19/2013 4:56 pm : link
out lined here (previous BBI threads) is that management is looking at our draft and FA failures over the past five years. They know who was making the calls and primarily responsible for this sad state of affairs. Lets see what they do about it. There should be no sacred cows; change what needs to be changed and before this next draft. Waiting another year should not be an option.
IMO, Andre Brown was a very good draft pick.  
Big Blue Blogger : 12/19/2013 5:01 pm : link
He filled an obvious need for a Derrick Ward replacement, and he was good value at the bottom of the fourth round. He tore his Achilles - just about the most random injury imaginable. That's just bad luck. His eventual comeback helps to vindicate the pick by demonstrating that he had both the talent and the character to succeed in the NFL. I guess you can say a broken foot in college foreshadowed his injury problems as a pro, but it also established his credentials as a quick healer. (He returned after a month.)

The tendency to lump him with the other flops from the 2009 draft has never made much sense to me.
ARC  
Rosie Brown HOF75 : 12/19/2013 5:17 pm : link
Giants picks over the past 10 years in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd rounds have been surprisingly good. I'm impressed by the number good 3rd round picks. Tuck, Shiancoe, Alford was promising before the injury, lost a 3rd to San Diego in the Eli Trade. Recently Manningham, Beatty and Hosley have all contributed. Jernigan, Barden, and Wilkinson not so much. Also Chad Jones never had a chance to show what might have been.

Giants have really been bad in rounds 4-7 over the past 5 years.

Cheers,
Bob
Jupiter  
Rosie Brown HOF75 : 12/19/2013 5:24 pm : link
Agree that over the long term it's unfair to call Whimper a miss.

He was drafted in 2006 and played in 8 games, 16 games in 2007 out for all of 2008 with an injury and played in 8 games in 2009 when he was released.

In 4 years with the Giants he started 0 games. This is the reason I feel he was a miss for the Giants.

He started 1 game in 2010. In 8 years he has 24 starts mostly with Jacksonville.
BBB  
Rosie Brown HOF75 : 12/19/2013 5:29 pm : link
Agreed as a linebacker DeOssie is a bust. I think I place a higher value on the long snapper than you do. 2002 Giants at San Fran Trey Junkin.
While we have initially hit on picks,  
Doomster : 12/19/2013 5:35 pm : link
they don't seem to get better with age.....

2007: Ross(backup, at best), Smith(out of football)

2008: Phillips(out of football), Thomas(not what he was, and his future is questionable)
2009: Nicks(two years of injuries(?) taken their toll)
2010: JPP(1.5 years of nothing), LinJo(solid, steady, nothing spectacular)
2011: Prince(good CB, but no where near, one of the best)
2012: Wilson(flashes, and now potential neck problem), Randle(very inconsistent)
2013: Pugh, Hankins.....the jury is out on both until after next year....

So, out of all those picks, we have LJ and Prince who are playing ok the last two years....the rest? Is it any wonder this team has floundered?
RE: I agree with the OP.  
Del Shofner : 12/19/2013 5:40 pm : link
In comment 11405551 Red Dog said:
Quote:
Screw the comparitive drafting statistics. That's not going to tell you anything you don't already know.

The ONLY draft statistic that is really meaningful in the final analysis is the team's regular and post-season record.

And the GIANTS record absolutely stinks over the last year and a half, due in large part to the failure of their pasts six drafts to deliver the QUALITY AND QUANTITY of players required to keep a championship team even competitive any longer.

I am as critical of the coaching staff as anyone anywhere, and believe that much of this coaching staff have overstayed their time here, but they did win a couple of Super Bowls so there has to be more to the story than just stale coaching.

And there is more. It's lack of player talent, and that's on the drafting because the draft was, is, and always will be the primary way to build an NFL team. The GIANTS are not getting it done any more with the draft. The road to rebuilding has to start in the front office and it should not wait for the end of the season, either.

Case closed.


I agree with you, Red Dog.
RE: You are skewing the picture by grouping 2007 with 2003-2006.  
montanagiant : 12/19/2013 6:26 pm : link
In comment 11405734 Big Blue Blogger said:
Quote:
If you're comparing Reese to Ross, it's fine. If you're Comparing Accorsi+Reese to Reese+Ross, take 2007 out altogether. Ernie was gone. Besides, he does not appear to have played a big role in the later rounds after Reese took over the draft in 2003. Giving him any sort of credit for Kevin Boss and Ahmad Bradshaw is absurd. I doubt he knew who those guys were.

By the way, speaking of 2007: DeOssie is a miss, and it's not even debatable. He was drafted as a linebacker. Nobody drafts a long-snapper, let alone in the fourth round. I love the guy, but he was a terrible draft pick.


Normally I would normally agree with you 100%, but i remember all the issues we had in the preceding years with long snapping.
RE: While we have initially hit on picks,  
arcarsenal : 12/19/2013 7:27 pm : link
In comment 11405782 Doomster said:
Quote:
they don't seem to get better with age.....

2007: Ross(backup, at best), Smith(out of football)

2008: Phillips(out of football), Thomas(not what he was, and his future is questionable)
2009: Nicks(two years of injuries(?) taken their toll)
2010: JPP(1.5 years of nothing), LinJo(solid, steady, nothing spectacular)
2011: Prince(good CB, but no where near, one of the best)
2012: Wilson(flashes, and now potential neck problem), Randle(very inconsistent)
2013: Pugh, Hankins.....the jury is out on both until after next year....

So, out of all those picks, we have LJ and Prince who are playing ok the last two years....the rest? Is it any wonder this team has floundered?


Again, though.. unless the player has an extensive injury history already in college, you can't predict the future. The picks themselves are pretty much all good ones because the players played well and helped the team win games when they were healthy. Injuries that happen beyond drafting a guy isn't really an indictment on the pick itself because it's impossible to predict in most cases.
Agree with Arc 100%  
mattnyg05 : 12/19/2013 8:42 pm : link
post every team's draft record in the same timeframe and we can talk. This data means nothing to me, how many players are supposed to be home runs or even contribute in later rounds of a draft? It doesn't work that way all the time.
I thoroughly disagree with Arc.  
manh george : 12/19/2013 9:02 pm : link
Although the inference for 2007 specifically is questionable at best, you don't need to compare results to those of other teams when you can compare to the prior record for your own team.

Is it really likely that other teams saw the same collapse in
middle to late round results from 2008 onward relative to pre-2007 results that the Giants did when the leadership of the draft shifted?
Our pre-2007 drafts were littered with bad picks, too.  
arcarsenal : 12/19/2013 9:13 pm : link
It's not like a string of poor mid-late round picks only started occurring post-2007.
Arc, every team's draft is littered with bad picks.  
manh george : 12/19/2013 9:26 pm : link
The problem the OPS is validly pointing out, I think, is the screaming lack of good picks, relative to the earlier period.
when you look at the list  
fkap : 12/19/2013 9:28 pm : link
of draft picks for each year, it really is pathetic how poorly we've done. It's gets worse when you see how badly we've missed on third rounders. And sprinkle in some spectacular misses in the second round.
yearly draft picks - ( New Window )
Sure, you can compare our own regimes..  
arcarsenal : 12/19/2013 9:49 pm : link
And see a few more mid-late round successes than we've had in recent years... but again, without knowing off hand what types of success rates other teams have in these rounds, it's hard for me to really have a strong opinion either way.

Would I like our drafts to be better? Sure. I'm guessing fans of most teams would probably say the same, though.
2007 is generally considered Reese's best year in the late/mid rounds  
oipolloi : 12/20/2013 12:26 am : link
so by arbitrarily giving that to Ernie, you skew the results





lets give some credit to adam koets  
Neverend : 12/20/2013 12:38 am : link
that injury really fucked up his situation from what I recall. jamar taylor was a pretty decent deep threat but I understand that one
You wasted all that text on a stupid, ill informed post  
David in LA : 12/20/2013 12:53 am : link
for it to hold water, you might want to gather the success rate of every single team in the NFL to see where we stack up. Rounds 4-7 isn't where you find slam dunk prospects.
Ironically, George Young stunk with his first round picks (often)  
Giants2012 : 12/20/2013 7:49 am : link
and was solid with his mid round picks
Draft  
stretch234 : 12/20/2013 7:57 am : link
Facts are 2/3 of players drafted in 4th rd don't make the team and it gets worse from there

I had posted on another thread the misses that both Newsome and Thompson had in the 1st 3 rounds and the lists are as long as Reese

It is amazing how many people think Newsome does not miss. It is not true

Reese big negative is that his 3rd round picks have been nothing but role players and some not even that

The Giants best def player is hurt. Their top WR has checked out after game 1. The franchise QB has made too many shit throws when hot pressured - that is why they are losing
stretch...  
arcarsenal : 12/20/2013 8:30 am : link
Mario was taken in the 3rd rd in 2008.

Chad Jones also could have been a good 3rd rd pick, we'll just unfortunately never know. A lot of us loved that pick at the time.

And a guy like DaMontre could absolutely wind up panning out. We'll have to see where he goes from here. I'm not even ready to completely dismiss Hosley yet (though his inability to get and stay on the field has been very frustrating)

Jernigan was probably a bad pick, though. But even still.. I've always felt like he could be a decent slot guy. He's just never really had much chance with Cruz. He did catch 7 passes after Cruz got hurt last Sunday.. but then proceeded to get hurt himself. He has an opportunity to prove he's worth a shit these last 2 games if he can get on the field.
I didn't know DeOssie was drafted to be a true LB  
Jimmy Googs : 12/20/2013 8:31 am : link
I knew that was his position in college but figured he was always slated to be the snapper role and play special teams.

Did we even try him out at LB or were we so strong at that position that he didn't stand a chance?

He was listed at LB for a few years...  
WideRight : 12/20/2013 8:38 am : link
.
Great OP btw  
WideRight : 12/20/2013 8:43 am : link
In spite of what some say, you are right on the money. We lost the team with consistent sub-par mid-round draft picks. Yes many other teams fare poorly at this, that is why they are also on the outside looking in.

To be optomistic, this can be corrected with just a few good drafts.....
TMS  
Rosie Brown HOF75 : 12/20/2013 9:13 am : link
Nice post. I hope you are correct.
Cheers,
Bob
BBB  
Rosie Brown HOF75 : 12/20/2013 9:40 am : link
My point is that the Giants drafting over the past 5 years(2008-2012)is significantly worst than it was in the previous 5 years (2003-2007) in rounds 4-7. This should be clear at this point. Something changed in the organization for this to happen. It's not a random event. I do not think it's a simple answer but management should be aware and hopefully are working to fix it.

Some here want to credit the magnificent draft of 2007 all to Jerry Reese and none to Ernie Acorrsi. I disagree. If 2007 makes Jerry Reese a drafting genius then what happened in 2008,2009 and 2010 in rounds 4-7. Nearly a complete failure. Do you believe that we pin that on Marc Ross and Jerry had no responsibility?

The responsibility of the draft is spread over the scouts, positional coaches (Dl,Ol,DB,etc)who I am fairly certain will grade various prospects, Head Coach, Off Coor, Def Coor, and Management. The process is complicated and I am sure very thorough. Many people are asked for their input. In the end it is hard to assign responsibility for failed picks.
Cheers,
Bob
Deossie was smart to realize  
Doomster : 12/20/2013 9:54 am : link
that he could not play linebacker in the NFL, and became a specialist as a long snapper, and also a good ST'er....

Not a bad football career for someone, from a "football powerhouse", like Brown....

And what are the odds that a father and son, would play for the same team, and each win a SB ring? Of course, Zak always brags, when his father is within ear shot, that he has two rings....
As important as the draft is  
Bill in UT : 12/20/2013 10:16 am : link
it's only one part of the puzzle. You need to factor in UDFAs and FA pickups. and giving the big money to the right players, keeping the good ones and getting rid of the overvalued- ie talent evaluation. And you have to factor in coaching, bringing at the full potential of guys. Bottom line is that looking at our roster where not doing very well with the whole package.
^^^  
NJGiantFan84 : 12/20/2013 10:22 am : link
Bill nailed it. There are mistakes going on which delve much deeper than rounds 4-7 of the draft.

But analyzing anything without taking the entire picture into account does not often give youe correct readings. If you want to look at the draft, look at the draft. Picking out the weakest part of Reese's draft without discussing the strengths is not the correct way to look into this. You are using statistics to further a predisposed idea you already have, rather than trying to come to the real conclusion.

It's the same thing where people say, "if you take away the 2 SB's the Giants down have any playoff wins under TC."

Well, if you take away the accomplishments of most people you are only going to be left with the negative. You need to see the entire picture.

RE: BBB  
Mason : 12/20/2013 10:34 am : link
In comment 11406366 Rosie Brown HOF75 said:
Quote:
My point is that the Giants drafting over the past 5 years(2008-2012)is significantly worst than it was in the previous 5 years (2003-2007) in rounds 4-7. This should be clear at this point. Something changed in the organization for this to happen. It's not a random event. I do not think it's a simple answer but management should be aware and hopefully are working to fix it.

Some here want to credit the magnificent draft of 2007 all to Jerry Reese and none to Ernie Acorrsi. I disagree. If 2007 makes Jerry Reese a drafting genius then what happened in 2008,2009 and 2010 in rounds 4-7. Nearly a complete failure. Do you believe that we pin that on Marc Ross and Jerry had no responsibility?

The responsibility of the draft is spread over the scouts, positional coaches (Dl,Ol,DB,etc)who I am fairly certain will grade various prospects, Head Coach, Off Coor, Def Coor, and Management. The process is complicated and I am sure very thorough. Many people are asked for their input. In the end it is hard to assign responsibility for failed picks.
Cheers,
Bob



You are correct. In 2008 not only did Reese step away from the draft, he allowed Coughlin significant input into draft. Anyone cares that Sintim wasba Coughlin and Sheridan pick? That Mike Sullivan personally scouted Harden and JJ? How about Gillbride and Pope begging for Beckum? Nope. Even when the coaches and owner tells you this info it goes unnoticed. Accorsi's approach to Coughlin is very different than Reese reward to Coughlin. Hell Mara has his own hands on this roster. Anymore BC alums need a chance?
How in the world are there so many teams  
Jimmy Googs : 12/20/2013 10:44 am : link
with worse records than the Giants?

We are awful and are now limping to a finish. What do those teams' blogs sound like?
Bill in UT  
fkap : 12/20/2013 1:13 pm : link
bingo.

the Reese regime (that includes Chris Mara, the owners, the coaches) has only been pedestrian in any aspect of managing: draft, bringing in FA, keeping FA, not knowing when to give up on players, cap management. Folks want to point out the 2 rings. Others want to point out 4 misses out of the last 5 years, no offseason success other than those 2 magical years, and no real optimism that we're going to be gaining that 3rd ring any time soon.
RE: RE: BBB  
arcarsenal : 12/20/2013 1:35 pm : link
In comment 11406489 Mason said:
Quote:
In comment 11406366 Rosie Brown HOF75 said:


Quote:


My point is that the Giants drafting over the past 5 years(2008-2012)is significantly worst than it was in the previous 5 years (2003-2007) in rounds 4-7. This should be clear at this point. Something changed in the organization for this to happen. It's not a random event. I do not think it's a simple answer but management should be aware and hopefully are working to fix it.

Some here want to credit the magnificent draft of 2007 all to Jerry Reese and none to Ernie Acorrsi. I disagree. If 2007 makes Jerry Reese a drafting genius then what happened in 2008,2009 and 2010 in rounds 4-7. Nearly a complete failure. Do you believe that we pin that on Marc Ross and Jerry had no responsibility?

The responsibility of the draft is spread over the scouts, positional coaches (Dl,Ol,DB,etc)who I am fairly certain will grade various prospects, Head Coach, Off Coor, Def Coor, and Management. The process is complicated and I am sure very thorough. Many people are asked for their input. In the end it is hard to assign responsibility for failed picks.
Cheers,
Bob




You are correct. In 2008 not only did Reese step away from the draft, he allowed Coughlin significant input into draft. Anyone cares that Sintim wasba Coughlin and Sheridan pick? That Mike Sullivan personally scouted Harden and JJ? How about Gillbride and Pope begging for Beckum? Nope. Even when the coaches and owner tells you this info it goes unnoticed. Accorsi's approach to Coughlin is very different than Reese reward to Coughlin. Hell Mara has his own hands on this roster. Anymore BC alums need a chance?


I haven't looked deep into this enough to know whether or not it's totally accurate.. but wouldn't it make sense to involve Reese heavily in the draft again if this is the case?
This whole Reese thing sounds like  
Bill in UT : 12/20/2013 2:00 pm : link
the Peter Principle. You have a guy who's good with the draft, so you take him away from the draft and put him in charge of FAs, cap management, contracts, and then put someone not good with the draft (Ross) in charge of that. I guess at this point you can't demote Reese back to just draft management.
Bill  
TMS : 12/20/2013 2:59 pm : link
Right on, the GM job is on the job training for Reese and Ross both. Notice no one wanted Ross as a GM when those jobs opened a while back even after our two SBs. Unfortunately they took Gittleman instead. We are stuck with them but for how long?
Mason  
Rosie Brown HOF75 : 12/20/2013 6:12 pm : link
Thanks. An eye opening post.
Cheers,
Bob
Jerry Reese when he drafted Zac DeOssie:  
Neverend : 12/20/2013 7:44 pm : link
Quote:
Reese’s post-draft comments on DeOssie: “I think he has a lot of value. Number one, he is big, he is fast, he is athletic. His gymnastic numbers at the Combine were off the charts. The low level of comp, you have to weigh that. But you evaluate everybody the same. So we weigh in that he played at Brown. So we also weigh in that he is big, he is fast, he plays hard, he has great character, he long snaps. Ryan Kuehl is going to be here for a couple more years, maybe, but after that, this kid could be your long snapper, save you a roster spot. So he had value in a lot of ways. He can actually run down the field and probably make a tackle. And he will play on all special teams…He is always going to play on the core special teams. You want big, fast athletes on your core special teams. The long snap is something (that adds value). At some point in his career the guy is going to battle for a starting spot…We did talk about him in the third (round). But the defensive tackle had more value at that time for us. He was still there in the fourth (round) and we were very pleased that he was still here. I think we got a real value pick right there.”


from bbi
they almost drafted phillip dillard  
Neverend : 12/20/2013 7:46 pm : link
in the 3rd round too. lmao.
sounds to me  
fkap : 12/20/2013 7:48 pm : link
like they drafted Zak as a ST, and hoped he would factor in the LB situation.
Sounded to me  
Bill in UT : 12/20/2013 8:15 pm : link
that they drafted a LB who could double as long snapper. Why else would he be talking about saving a roster spot?
the comment practically  
fkap : 12/20/2013 8:48 pm : link
jizzed at his ability to play specials, while believing that his measureables would make him a project at LB, hoping that he would pan out at LB.

the ST panned out, the LB didn't. that comment, IMO, puts ST first, while putting hopes on LB. just my interpretation.
ok  
Bill in UT : 12/20/2013 8:50 pm : link
:)
Bluntly  
Some Fan : 12/20/2013 9:17 pm : link
A few of your hits and misses make no sense. For example, Jonathan Goff is a huge miss.
Some Fan  
Rosie Brown HOF75 : 12/21/2013 4:20 pm : link
Goff became our starting middle linebacker in his third year on the squad (2010). He was the starter for all 16 games that year. Total of 80 tackles in 2010-54 individual and 26 assits. In August of 2011 he tore his ACl virtually ending his career with the Giants. In my opinion if you can find a starting middle line backer in the 5th round who you latter loose to injury the guy is a good pick.
Cheers,
Bob
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