He's a stud. Usually they sign those guys before a season ends, but I suppose we don't have the money to do that yet. Hopefully it's already a work in progress.
Try to bring back for the right price but might have to overpay slightly
LB Jon Beason
Seriously think about franchising
WR Hakeem Nicks (yes, I'm crazy but he has shown enough in his career for me to at least think about not letting him walk for free and forget about the possible 3rd round comp pick as there is no way we are going to sit back this offseason and not spend on particular areas such as OL)
Offer team friendly deals with no guarantee of making the team
DE Justin Tuck
OG/C Kevin Boothe
RB Andre Brown
CB Tarrell Thomas
CB Trumain McBride
K Josh Brown
S Stevie Brown
LB Spencer Paysinger (restricted)
TE Bear Pascoe
LB Keith Rivers
S Ryan Mundy
RB Peyton Hillis
DT Mike Patterson
DT Shaun Rogers
Try to keep if the restricted compensation isn't crazy
FB Henry Hynoski (restricted)
LB Mark Herzlich (restricted)
C Jim Cordle (restricted)
Say "Thank You" for your time but we have to move on
TE Brandon Myers
CB Corey Webster
CB Aaron Ross
OL David Diehl
QB Curtis Painter
WR Louis Murphy
OL Dallas Reynolds
OL Stephen Goodin
WR Julian Talley
RB Brandon Jacobs
Beason, JBrown,SBrown(conditional on knee),are musts. Boothe,Patterson, McBride,TT,Tuck, are barely next.
Thank You thread, or Re-sign for vet.min. to the rest, depending on who the team really thinks is worth it.
That would be my re-signing order.
I like Brown … a lot. The reason I put him with that category is for two main reason. One is his injury history. The second is because the league is flooded with decent running backs and there is no reason to over pay. I am definitely not saying we go into the season with just Wilson and Cox but to go out and get a cost effective vet. Like I said, I like Brown. I love his patients to the hole and acceleration through it. I like his toughness. I like his ability to pick up blitzes. He has ok hands. With all of that said, he still leaves a lot to be desired. He looks better because of the lack of depth we currently had. That is not a reason to overpay for an average back.
Stevie Brown is a lock to be a part of the team whatsoever. People live too much based on past performance, despite having an injury to factor in.
Giants need to avoid overpaying for guys considering they must do some shopping themselves, but I think Linval Joseph is as close to a must-resign as we have had in recent years as long as the market price is fair to what his value is to us.
DE is a really tricky spot considering you've got two DEs now getting older on the other side of 30 who have some mileage on them and you wonder how much longer you have them or if you retain them. But we also have JPP who has been pretty enigmatic now the last year and a half and has been limited to injuries. Even if he's only so-so next year, he's got the idea he's going to get paid. Unless he comes through in a big way, I'd probably let him go.
OL has got to be addressed in a significant and decisive way.
Brown had the interceptions but he was also a big reason why we gave up so many big plays last year. I am not going to lose sleep if he doesn't re-sign with us.
They let Barry Cofield go because of Joseph. If they let this guy go they are crazy and then we most certainly have even more to bitch about Jerry Reese.
If it means not bringing Nicks back so be it. Rebuild the offensive line and get a dependable back to run behind it. If Will Hiil keeps his nose clean with Stevie Brown coming back safety will be an area of much strength. Go and get another cornerback and a stud line backer.
that is not true at all. He is EASILY the best WR available in the offseason. I don't care if he had a down year. There is going to be a market for him. If you slap him with the FT you can trade him. If nobody wants him then he has to play his ass off for a contract. He can't do what he did this year. Yes, he would probably hold out but then he would be back come game time and have to produce.
If Joseph gets a ridiculous offer from another team there is a chance he does leave. You also have to remember that players don't leave a team with an offer and shop it around. That is rare. If a player visits a team and offers him a contract it is usually done right then and there. The home team doesn't really get a chance to match. It's not always up to the team if a player is re-signed. There are two sides to a negotiation.
That would surprise me because of the money the Giants would have to commit to. If they put the full Franchise Tag on Nicks, he'd make $10.5 million. Even the transition tag would bump him to almost $9 million. That's a big cap hit for a guy who turned in a very meh season.
If it turns out he's playing through another injury and the Giants know it, I suppose they might cut him some slack for his tepid performance in 2013. Otherwise, why pay him that kind of money? NFL Franchise Tag rules (Bleacher Report) - ( New Window )
I know the Giants can't let everyone walk because they can't bring in 52 brand new players ... but frankly, I don't think there is a single player other than Manning that will make a rat's ass of a difference if they leave or they stay. There are some competent players for sure. But not one of them is an earth shattering future HOFer - or even a difference maker. Each of them are, at best, 2nd tier players. Every team needs 2nd tier players - but you can't win if that's all you have (and that's all the Giants have - 2nd and 3rd tier players).
In fact, thinking about it further, I would define the levels of talent as follows:
Tier 1. Likely future HOFer
Tier 2. One of best players in league, at any position.
Tier 3. One of top 5 (out of 32) at his position.
Tier 4. Between 6-16 at his position.
Tier 5. Between 17-32 at his position.
The Giants have zero players at Tiers 1 through 3. If I wrong, I'd welcome anyone's list of Giants you believe fit within levels 1 to 3.
But why get all excited about keeping tier 4 and 5 players? Obviously every team has players at those tiers, but very few have nothing but (and that;s all the Giants have IMO)
Second, I would take Nicks every time over Sanders and still lets say Sanders was the better player then who is the next best WR? It is a horrible year if a team needs a WR and wants to get one in FA.
Pay top dollar for a player that stinks, you lost me right away, the rest of your post no longer matters when you can actually even think to franchise him. I would want Joseph, Tuck, and Boothe and Beason back for certain. No other player on the list is worth worrying about all that much, because thy are all replaceable, and if there is an upgrade over Boothe I would do that. Terrel Thomas is OK, but I would not break the bank at all, McBride the same thing and also Andre Brown. The rest I would hope we could improve upon.
Joseph. Let Nicks go. Give some of Nicks's money to Joseph.
I'd definitely keep Stevie Brown, assuming his knee is OK. Yeah, he was responsible for some big plays, but he has a real nose for the ball, and he was a LB in college, and a UDFA.
As far as the rest, just fire the entire interior OL and start over. Maybe you keep Cordle, but I'd ditch everyone else. I'd get rid of Beatty but his salary makes that impossible.
mailed it in this season. For that reason, I would not even consider bringing him back on a 1 year deal. I am not convinced the effort and motivation was there this year. I am also of the belief that Nicks is still a really good player. I'm not sure that bridge hasn't been burned though.
I've asked myself that same question. I'm not sure Nicks is going to ever get back to what he was a couple years ago. He certainly isn't a guy I'd bet on for the longer-term.
He's noticeably lost a lot of burst when trying to run away from defenders off the line or even in space after the catch. Never been a speed guy necessarily so if the burst and nimble footwork are diminished, that's troubling. If he can't hold up physically, what's his value then? He might be a 3rd WR at this point.
I think Emmanuel Sanders is probably headed to NE anyway, but Nicks will be interesting to watch in FA. My guess is he's likely going to CAR, but I'm sure a couple teams will target him, but I think he might be surprised at the lack of big money being offered.
Something tells me that Nicks is just starting to
make it back .Call it a hunch lets see what happens against the Skins , Trust me I am ready to burn the only Jersey I have
I don't count Shockey anymore and I did not buy it.
Now one game especially a meaningless game but when he
is 100% he's top 7 at least . if he has Truly lost
a step then Try to trade him .
The Defense is playing good enough we can't waste any more time have to retool and quickly Its Eli's Prime .
So the focus is on the O-line a TE and a Solid RB .
I would be disappointed if they let Linvil go .
I am wondering what they do with Kiwi no capologist here
he had ONE good game this year the LB experiment was Dumb
IMO .
Steveie Brown needs to prove himself again we could use
a FA CB . Talib? unless they are confidnet in McBride
who played well IMO . I like Hillis but he may be injury prone but I like the way he plays .
Wilson the Enigma and a scary type of Injury .
That kid from Detroit looked pretty tough and can
catch the Ball another Must in this offense .
I hope for a FA starter Mack would be a great start
and picks #1 and #2 to the O-line unless its someone
we can't pass on ..
As many have noted this is a "weak" 7-9 or 6-10 team. Joseph will be the major get for NFL teams. Nicks won't get half of what he thought he'd get on the market. I like reading Robbie's comments. However I think he got into the Holiday Nog on this one. Nicks has discernibly lost speed & explosiveness. He stopped blocking & he's now a conscientious objector going over the middle.
The Giants will keep either Mundy or S Brown. Not both. Tuck would be great to have back at a price that helps the club without humiliating him. The Giants need a significant infusion of young talent. Can they pull it off? There is the big question of 14.
This is a weird situation which let me to the 2 conspiracies..
I think a clean off-season is going to revive him..of course, they should not overpay of him, the FA market is not looking to good. And the idea of them drafting yet another WR in the 1st 3 rounds will look like the Lions draft process..
Seriously, though, I get your point. Just about everyone on the list is eminently replaceable. Sure, some would be a bit harder to replace than others, but not by much.
Nicks is starter, contingent on his health - but, I wouldn't offer much $$$ try to re-sign him. We don't even know if we will have a healthy rb next year - the top three rbs have not even reached 1000 yards combined (OL was major part of that though)
Rebuild, or does it think it's just one or two players away?
I don't think it has the balls to do a rebuild.....I think it will delude itself into thinking, this coaching staff is ok, and with the right draft picks and free agents signed, we can be back in the thick of it next year....
LJ is about the only guy worth a damn....but he is just a good, solid player......he is not a play maker, or someone that scares the bejesus out of the opposing team...you don't overpay players like that....that's how we got in this mess in the first place.....
Tuck had a few flashes of the old Tuck.....but that's all they are.....the Giants are not strong at DE, with JPP questionable, Kiwi having one good game, Moore a huge question mark.....Tuck, may have the Giants in the same corner like Beatty and Baas did....
Beason showed what a good linebacker can do, and how it affects the rest of the defense.....our brain trust hoped that Herzlich could do this.....not! he is good, but once again, you don't break the bank on this guy.....
Boothe is a backup, at best.....he is an asset, in the sense that if someone goes down, he can fill in, because this Giant team HAS ABSOLUTELY NO DEPTH IN THE OL!
I laugh when I see some wanting to Franchise Nicks......let's triple his salary, after what he has done this year....and then let's watch him do the same thing next year....
Andre Brown? If he is your #1 back, you are asking for trouble, just like this year....you bring him back as a backup, nothing more......
TT, vet min, you can't count on that knee....
McBride? I'd send my biggest guy against him everytime....
Myers? I'm not paying him 4M.....and after 15 games, he still can't block....
Josh Brown, has gone from being tarred and feathered, to ST player of the week....still don't know what he can do under pressure.....
Stevie Brown, still gets no respect....it was his first year as a starter, he makes some plays, and is blamed for guys getting deep.....he didn't play this year, so who do you blame now? But it's an ACL....not sure how much you pay, just like TT......
Spencer is not a LB....just a ST'er....
Hyno could be gone, with Conner here....
Webster, as a backup, and if healthy? I'd take a chance....
I have posted it a few times but how many "diva" Wrs have we seen struggle for a year or two only to remerge as a star later on down the road? I can think of a half dozen or more Wrs that did just that over the past 10-15 years. Wrs are funny. And Wrs need a lot to go right to succeed. No NFL player is more dependent on outside forces then the WR. And let's be honest this offense didn't exactly lend itself to WR success this season.
If you think nicks is done fine let him walk. But I don't think he's done. I just think he's in a rut the last 2 seasons... Some of it bad luck some of it his own doing.
Nicks is 25 years old and I'm not even sure the guy has had knee surgery yet. He's had nagging injuries but no brutal game changing injuries.
With Nicks gone next year, who is BBI going to pick as Â
Did Nicks throw a franchise record 26 picks (with a week to go)? Cruz scored three TDs the first week of the season but only one in the next 13 games. If not for Nicks and his zero touchdowns, people would be wondering why Cruz' touchdown numbers were so far down.
The most obvious answer for the offense's sucking is also the worst answer. Eli Manning had a god-awful year that wouldn't qualify him as a starting QB on more than about five other teams. Twenty-seven picks against a career seasonal average of less than 17. Seventeen TD passes against a career seasonal average of 25.6. a QB rating of 81.3 against an average rating of 92.2 for the five previous seasons.
I'd like to blame this all on awful pass protection, and I think the Giants' offseason priority should be pass protection for Eli and a two way tight end, but Eli has played much better than this with lousy pass blocking.
As some Packer fan on another site contributed, last year Rodgers was sacked 51 times and had a running game that averaged less than four yards per carry. But he threw 39 touchdowns to only 8 interceptions, has a QB rating of 108, and took his team to the NFC title game.
Hopefully this season was just one negative blip on a long and successful career for Eli as quarterback. But what if it isn't? We look screwed for many years to come.
to these guys, and keep Linval, Beason, Mark H, TT, McBride, and Hillis and Brown.
Nicks
DE Justin Tuck
OG/C Kevin Boothe
K Josh Brown
S Stevie Brown
LB Spencer Paysinger (restricted)
TE Bear Pascoe
LB Keith Rivers
S Ryan Mundy
DT Shaun Rogers
FB Henry Hynoski (restricted)
C Jim Cordle (restricted)
TE Brandon Myers
CB Corey Webster
CB Aaron Ross
OL David Diehl
QB Curtis Painter
WR Louis Murphy
OL Dallas Reynolds
OL Stephen Goodin
WR Julian Talley
RB Brandon Jacobs
Linval, Beason, Boothe, and take a shot at Nicks for a 2 year 10 mil. Type contract. There some others that I would be ok with having back on the cheep IE Tuck.
Over Booth and Tuck
Not sure If I agree to that
Two of our best O-line and D-line Players
For a backup LB/special Teamer
and a 3 Time ACL Victim that played like 1 snap last game ?
that is not true at all. He is EASILY the best WR available in the offseason. I don't care if he had a down year. There is going to be a market for him. If you slap him with the FT you can trade him. If nobody wants him then he has to play his ass off for a contract. He can't do what he did this year. Yes, he would probably hold out but then he would be back come game time and have to produce.
At this point, you have to say Eric Decker is better than Nicks.
I know the Giants can't let everyone walk because they can't bring in 52 brand new players ... but frankly, I don't think there is a single player other than Manning that will make a rat's ass of a difference if they leave or they stay. There are some competent players for sure. But not one of them is an earth shattering future HOFer - or even a difference maker. Each of them are, at best, 2nd tier players. Every team needs 2nd tier players - but you can't win if that's all you have (and that's all the Giants have - 2nd and 3rd tier players).
This is a great nominee for stupidest non game-thread post on BBI of 2013.
RE: With Nicks gone next year, who is BBI going to pick as Â
Did Nicks throw a franchise record 26 picks (with a week to go)? Cruz scored three TDs the first week of the season but only one in the next 13 games. If not for Nicks and his zero touchdowns, people would be wondering why Cruz' touchdown numbers were so far down.
The most obvious answer for the offense's sucking is also the worst answer. Eli Manning had a god-awful year that wouldn't qualify him as a starting QB on more than about five other teams. Twenty-seven picks against a career seasonal average of less than 17. Seventeen TD passes against a career seasonal average of 25.6. a QB rating of 81.3 against an average rating of 92.2 for the five previous seasons.
I'd like to blame this all on awful pass protection, and I think the Giants' offseason priority should be pass protection for Eli and a two way tight end, but Eli has played much better than this with lousy pass blocking.
As some Packer fan on another site contributed, last year Rodgers was sacked 51 times and had a running game that averaged less than four yards per carry. But he threw 39 touchdowns to only 8 interceptions, has a QB rating of 108, and took his team to the NFC title game.
Hopefully this season was just one negative blip on a long and successful career for Eli as quarterback. But what if it isn't? We look screwed for many years to come.
People refer to 2011's bad O-line and this year's bad o-line as if they were equal. This line was way worse in pass protection, and more importantly, trash up the middle. I honestly believe that there was not a starting caliber O-lineman at guard or center all year.
I think Eli has enough pocket awareness and pocket presence to mitigate bad tackle play to some degree. But this year has shown bad interior line play is a killer.
I would love it if the Gmen went interior Oline with 2 out of their first 3 picks. Fuck man, they could go Guard - center - guard and I'd still be happy.
This season was lost due to the O-line. Not the defense, not the RBs, and not even really the WRs (though they were way worse than expected)... this year is on the shitty, abominable o-line.
Million a year he wants and can bounce back but not Eli?
Let's see, how many games has Eli missed since he became the starter? How many times has Eli skipped pre season workouts? How many times has Eli had his agent come out with a mysterious injury and have him skip practice.
Yeah. I think those who want Nicks reUpee for that to pay the cash. Always great to pay some player(and this isn't about Nicks only) millions as if it's no big deal. As if it has no cap implications? While Nicks can potentially bounce back if he expects a Mike Wallace type deal or honestly even Cruz $$$ I'd rather keep guys like Joseph and Beason and sign a mid tier FA WR.
If they bring back Boothe and Snee doesn't retire, WTHeck are the Giants plans? Add one player and go into 2014?
Dead wrong. By far and away the most consistent lineman. You could say Pugh but playing guard then switching to center with 2 young guys next to you is not an easy task even for the best of the best.
same team next year, and the odds favor Coughlin returning. We are waiting to hear John Mara either come in with the strong vote of confidence in Coughlin or hear him hedge even a little bit. As soon as the dirt settles after next week's finale the press will start turning up the heat on the coaching situation, putting pressure on Mara to say something.
Manningham should be available cheap next season. He didn't learn the lesson of Steve Smith and Kevin Boss and now his best option to keep his career going is to crawl back to the Giants and Eli Manning. He had a solid year in 2010 with 60 catches for 944 yards, a 15.7 yard average, and 9 TDs.
Based upon the list of FA WRs on the list Robbie Posted... Â
This was his contract year and he failed miserably. He would probably hold out if he was franchised. We don't need his attitude or breaking down body. We need touchdowns.
There are some competent players for sure. But not one of them is an earth shattering future HOFer - or even a difference maker. Each of them are, at best, 2nd tier players. Every team needs 2nd tier players - but you can't win if that's all you have (and that's all the Giants have - 2nd and 3rd tier players).
Sonic Youth
Quote:
This is a great nominee for stupidest non game-thread post on BBI of 2013.
So, Sonic, tell us your list of Giants who are top tier players ... not HOFers ... not top in the league ... just players top 5 at their position ... can't wait to see your list.
How exactly do you determine that, yourself? PFF rankings? I'd definitely argue that some of the players outside of even the Top 3 at their position are pretty interchangeable between the top 10 or so.
As an example, take a look at QB.
After Peyton, Brady, Brees... how do you rank out the next tier of QBs? It's not liek you can just base it on statistical merit.
I'm not arguing that the Giants have any players who right now, are Top 5 at their position. But we do have guys like:
Victor Cruz - who at full health is arguably the best slot WR in the NFL
JPP - who is a year and back surgery removed from having a Top 5 DE season in the NFL
Will Hill - an up and coming talent who looks like he can be special
Justin Pugh - a top 5 talent? Maybe not, but arguably the best tackle to come out of last year's draft and will be a mainstay with us for years to come.
By the way...
Quote:
Every team needs 2nd tier players - but you can't win if that's all you have (and that's all the Giants have - 2nd and 3rd tier players).
Who were our top 5 talents when we won those last 2 Super Bowls?
2007:
Strahan
Burress (?)
Snee
2011:
Eli (up for debate, but down the stretch run, no question)
Cruz (maybe)
JPP
So, it's not like the Giants are done. They need to make some key re-signings, have a killer draft, and see if they can add a key piece or two in free agency.
I am not big on statistics to measure talent, so I agree with you that, to be realistic, it has to be subjective. My point is that IMO the Giants have a major talent gap at the top end of their roster. And I mean major.
2007 SB
Manning
Jacobs (in my mind the best RB in football in 2007)
OL (as a group, clearly top 5 in the NFL)
Steve Smith
Burress
Strahan
Tuck
Umenyiora
2011 SB (much more difficult to make my pt in 2011)
Manning
Nicks
Cruz
Phillips
JPP
Corey Webster
Both OL and DL, as units, played at very high levels in the playoffs, clearly near top of the league
As an example, take a look at QB.
After Peyton, Brady, Brees... how do you rank out the next tier of QBs? It's not liek you can just base it on statistical merit.
Quote:
I'm not arguing that the Giants have any players who right now, are Top 5 at their position. But we do have guys like:
Victor Cruz - who at full health is arguably the best slot WR in the NFL
JPP - who is a year and back surgery removed from having a Top 5 DE season in the NFL
Will Hill - an up and coming talent who looks like he can be special
Justin Pugh - a top 5 talent? Maybe not, but arguably the best tackle to come out of last year's draft and will be a mainstay with us for years to come.
I agree re Cruz. I can only hope JPP plays again at a top level, but that is very far from being assured. Love Will Hill and Justin Pugh and I hope they turn out to be special players.
But, again, the Giants have a gap at the top of their roster. They have a lack of impact players (players in the past like Strahan, Jacobs, Tuck, JPP, Nicks, and Cruz). IMO, only Cruz makes that list moving forward. Can they restock? Sure. But right now it is disturbing to me that they don't have that talent already on the roster and need to make some home run hits in FA or the draft to get there - because without top level talent, the Giants are what they were this year. Average or worse.
Again with the talent issue. Do any of the NFC East teams have more talent. The NFC North teams.
Carolina, SF and Seattle yes. Outside of them I do not think anyone else has more talent. Problem is the Giants best players are all playing bad or hurt
Again with the talent issue. As in the Giants don't have any. As in if I'm wrong, name the Giants players you think the rest of the league are salivating over and wished they had on their team? Just who are these players you seem to believe the Giants have that are world beaters? You never seem to be able to name anyone.
mailed it in this season. For that reason, I would not even consider bringing him back on a 1 year deal. I am not convinced the effort and motivation was there this year. I am also of the belief that Nicks is still a really good player. I'm not sure that bridge hasn't been burned though.
Not sure that's the case for the season. I think the loss of Snee and Baas, with Diehl degrading to one of the worse linemen in the league (according to PFF), throws things off that have indirect affects on the receivers. Eli couldn't execute the plays he and Nicks used to execute without much difficulty, and the biggest difference is that line. They can't sustain blocks and that affected Eli's confidence and his mechanics. What might also be affecting Nicks are the leg and ankle injuries... he may be 1/2 step off, and that's bad for a guy who was never fast to begin with (4.63 combine 40) when it comes to getting separation, or dealing with a Corner's closing speed. Nicks didn't mail it in... the poor line translated to broken connections between Eli and his receivers.
there's really no one on that list worth paying too much to.
Nicks won't accept any offer that is remotely in line with what should be offered.
Tuck, Andre Brown, McBride, Myers, JBrown and a few others have roles on the team as long as they have a reasonable contract. There's a couple who are worth bringing back on minimum contracts.
If they bring back Boothe and Snee doesn't retire, WTHeck are the Giants plans? Add one player and go into 2014?
DT Linval Joseph
Try to bring back for the right price but might have to overpay slightly
LB Jon Beason
Seriously think about franchising
WR Hakeem Nicks (yes, I'm crazy but he has shown enough in his career for me to at least think about not letting him walk for free and forget about the possible 3rd round comp pick as there is no way we are going to sit back this offseason and not spend on particular areas such as OL)
Offer team friendly deals with no guarantee of making the team
DE Justin Tuck
OG/C Kevin Boothe
RB Andre Brown
CB Tarrell Thomas
CB Trumain McBride
K Josh Brown
S Stevie Brown
LB Spencer Paysinger (restricted)
TE Bear Pascoe
LB Keith Rivers
S Ryan Mundy
RB Peyton Hillis
DT Mike Patterson
DT Shaun Rogers
Try to keep if the restricted compensation isn't crazy
FB Henry Hynoski (restricted)
LB Mark Herzlich (restricted)
C Jim Cordle (restricted)
Say "Thank You" for your time but we have to move on
TE Brandon Myers
CB Corey Webster
CB Aaron Ross
OL David Diehl
QB Curtis Painter
WR Louis Murphy
OL Dallas Reynolds
OL Stephen Goodin
WR Julian Talley
RB Brandon Jacobs
Thank You thread, or Re-sign for vet.min. to the rest, depending on who the team really thinks is worth it.
That would be my re-signing order.
Giants need to avoid overpaying for guys considering they must do some shopping themselves, but I think Linval Joseph is as close to a must-resign as we have had in recent years as long as the market price is fair to what his value is to us.
DE is a really tricky spot considering you've got two DEs now getting older on the other side of 30 who have some mileage on them and you wonder how much longer you have them or if you retain them. But we also have JPP who has been pretty enigmatic now the last year and a half and has been limited to injuries. Even if he's only so-so next year, he's got the idea he's going to get paid. Unless he comes through in a big way, I'd probably let him go.
OL has got to be addressed in a significant and decisive way.
If it means not bringing Nicks back so be it. Rebuild the offensive line and get a dependable back to run behind it. If Will Hiil keeps his nose clean with Stevie Brown coming back safety will be an area of much strength. Go and get another cornerback and a stud line backer.
And by all means bring back Justin Tuck.
If it turns out he's playing through another injury and the Giants know it, I suppose they might cut him some slack for his tepid performance in 2013. Otherwise, why pay him that kind of money?
NFL Franchise Tag rules (Bleacher Report) - ( New Window )
Tier 1. Likely future HOFer
Tier 2. One of best players in league, at any position.
Tier 3. One of top 5 (out of 32) at his position.
Tier 4. Between 6-16 at his position.
Tier 5. Between 17-32 at his position.
The Giants have zero players at Tiers 1 through 3. If I wrong, I'd welcome anyone's list of Giants you believe fit within levels 1 to 3.
But why get all excited about keeping tier 4 and 5 players? Obviously every team has players at those tiers, but very few have nothing but (and that;s all the Giants have IMO)
Second, I would take Nicks every time over Sanders and still lets say Sanders was the better player then who is the next best WR? It is a horrible year if a team needs a WR and wants to get one in FA.
This is why the drafted Hankins
Link - ( New Window )
I'd definitely keep Stevie Brown, assuming his knee is OK. Yeah, he was responsible for some big plays, but he has a real nose for the ball, and he was a LB in college, and a UDFA.
As far as the rest, just fire the entire interior OL and start over. Maybe you keep Cordle, but I'd ditch everyone else. I'd get rid of Beatty but his salary makes that impossible.
Either, after the season, the Giants are going to let it leak that Nicks had some type of injury all year OR..
Some team got into his agents ear and told them to ensure Nicks was healthy for the off-season, I.e. don't get hurt so they can sign you..
These are far-fetched, but i cannot see this kid losing his talent in a matter of a year..
Christ, how does a starting WR go through a season and a quarter without scoring?
He's noticeably lost a lot of burst when trying to run away from defenders off the line or even in space after the catch. Never been a speed guy necessarily so if the burst and nimble footwork are diminished, that's troubling. If he can't hold up physically, what's his value then? He might be a 3rd WR at this point.
I think Emmanuel Sanders is probably headed to NE anyway, but Nicks will be interesting to watch in FA. My guess is he's likely going to CAR, but I'm sure a couple teams will target him, but I think he might be surprised at the lack of big money being offered.
make it back .Call it a hunch lets see what happens against the Skins , Trust me I am ready to burn the only Jersey I have
I don't count Shockey anymore and I did not buy it.
Now one game especially a meaningless game but when he
is 100% he's top 7 at least . if he has Truly lost
a step then Try to trade him .
The Defense is playing good enough we can't waste any more time have to retool and quickly Its Eli's Prime .
So the focus is on the O-line a TE and a Solid RB .
I would be disappointed if they let Linvil go .
I am wondering what they do with Kiwi no capologist here
he had ONE good game this year the LB experiment was Dumb
IMO .
Steveie Brown needs to prove himself again we could use
a FA CB . Talib? unless they are confidnet in McBride
who played well IMO . I like Hillis but he may be injury prone but I like the way he plays .
Wilson the Enigma and a scary type of Injury .
That kid from Detroit looked pretty tough and can
catch the Ball another Must in this offense .
I hope for a FA starter Mack would be a great start
and picks #1 and #2 to the O-line unless its someone
we can't pass on ..
What if he is now the player we saw in 2013 for good?
Way too risky for me. I don't even make him an offer that wouldn't be an insult.
BTW: Snee will be cut also. Saves 7.2M.
The Giants will keep either Mundy or S Brown. Not both. Tuck would be great to have back at a price that helps the club without humiliating him. The Giants need a significant infusion of young talent. Can they pull it off? There is the big question of 14.
I think a clean off-season is going to revive him..of course, they should not overpay of him, the FA market is not looking to good. And the idea of them drafting yet another WR in the 1st 3 rounds will look like the Lions draft process..
Seriously, though, I get your point. Just about everyone on the list is eminently replaceable. Sure, some would be a bit harder to replace than others, but not by much.
Rebuild, or does it think it's just one or two players away?
I don't think it has the balls to do a rebuild.....I think it will delude itself into thinking, this coaching staff is ok, and with the right draft picks and free agents signed, we can be back in the thick of it next year....
LJ is about the only guy worth a damn....but he is just a good, solid player......he is not a play maker, or someone that scares the bejesus out of the opposing team...you don't overpay players like that....that's how we got in this mess in the first place.....
Tuck had a few flashes of the old Tuck.....but that's all they are.....the Giants are not strong at DE, with JPP questionable, Kiwi having one good game, Moore a huge question mark.....Tuck, may have the Giants in the same corner like Beatty and Baas did....
Beason showed what a good linebacker can do, and how it affects the rest of the defense.....our brain trust hoped that Herzlich could do this.....not! he is good, but once again, you don't break the bank on this guy.....
Boothe is a backup, at best.....he is an asset, in the sense that if someone goes down, he can fill in, because this Giant team HAS ABSOLUTELY NO DEPTH IN THE OL!
I laugh when I see some wanting to Franchise Nicks......let's triple his salary, after what he has done this year....and then let's watch him do the same thing next year....
Andre Brown? If he is your #1 back, you are asking for trouble, just like this year....you bring him back as a backup, nothing more......
TT, vet min, you can't count on that knee....
McBride? I'd send my biggest guy against him everytime....
Myers? I'm not paying him 4M.....and after 15 games, he still can't block....
Josh Brown, has gone from being tarred and feathered, to ST player of the week....still don't know what he can do under pressure.....
Stevie Brown, still gets no respect....it was his first year as a starter, he makes some plays, and is blamed for guys getting deep.....he didn't play this year, so who do you blame now? But it's an ACL....not sure how much you pay, just like TT......
Spencer is not a LB....just a ST'er....
Hyno could be gone, with Conner here....
Webster, as a backup, and if healthy? I'd take a chance....
The rest? Easily replaced......
Nope.
I have posted it a few times but how many "diva" Wrs have we seen struggle for a year or two only to remerge as a star later on down the road? I can think of a half dozen or more Wrs that did just that over the past 10-15 years. Wrs are funny. And Wrs need a lot to go right to succeed. No NFL player is more dependent on outside forces then the WR. And let's be honest this offense didn't exactly lend itself to WR success this season.
If you think nicks is done fine let him walk. But I don't think he's done. I just think he's in a rut the last 2 seasons... Some of it bad luck some of it his own doing.
Nicks is 25 years old and I'm not even sure the guy has had knee surgery yet. He's had nagging injuries but no brutal game changing injuries.
Did Nicks throw a franchise record 26 picks (with a week to go)? Cruz scored three TDs the first week of the season but only one in the next 13 games. If not for Nicks and his zero touchdowns, people would be wondering why Cruz' touchdown numbers were so far down.
The most obvious answer for the offense's sucking is also the worst answer. Eli Manning had a god-awful year that wouldn't qualify him as a starting QB on more than about five other teams. Twenty-seven picks against a career seasonal average of less than 17. Seventeen TD passes against a career seasonal average of 25.6. a QB rating of 81.3 against an average rating of 92.2 for the five previous seasons.
I'd like to blame this all on awful pass protection, and I think the Giants' offseason priority should be pass protection for Eli and a two way tight end, but Eli has played much better than this with lousy pass blocking.
As some Packer fan on another site contributed, last year Rodgers was sacked 51 times and had a running game that averaged less than four yards per carry. But he threw 39 touchdowns to only 8 interceptions, has a QB rating of 108, and took his team to the NFC title game.
Hopefully this season was just one negative blip on a long and successful career for Eli as quarterback. But what if it isn't? We look screwed for many years to come.
Nicks
DE Justin Tuck
OG/C Kevin Boothe
K Josh Brown
S Stevie Brown
LB Spencer Paysinger (restricted)
TE Bear Pascoe
LB Keith Rivers
S Ryan Mundy
DT Shaun Rogers
FB Henry Hynoski (restricted)
C Jim Cordle (restricted)
TE Brandon Myers
CB Corey Webster
CB Aaron Ross
OL David Diehl
QB Curtis Painter
WR Louis Murphy
OL Dallas Reynolds
OL Stephen Goodin
WR Julian Talley
RB Brandon Jacobs
Not sure If I agree to that
Two of our best O-line and D-line Players
For a backup LB/special Teamer
and a 3 Time ACL Victim that played like 1 snap last game ?
At this point, you have to say Eric Decker is better than Nicks.
This is a great nominee for stupidest non game-thread post on BBI of 2013.
Did Nicks throw a franchise record 26 picks (with a week to go)? Cruz scored three TDs the first week of the season but only one in the next 13 games. If not for Nicks and his zero touchdowns, people would be wondering why Cruz' touchdown numbers were so far down.
The most obvious answer for the offense's sucking is also the worst answer. Eli Manning had a god-awful year that wouldn't qualify him as a starting QB on more than about five other teams. Twenty-seven picks against a career seasonal average of less than 17. Seventeen TD passes against a career seasonal average of 25.6. a QB rating of 81.3 against an average rating of 92.2 for the five previous seasons.
I'd like to blame this all on awful pass protection, and I think the Giants' offseason priority should be pass protection for Eli and a two way tight end, but Eli has played much better than this with lousy pass blocking.
As some Packer fan on another site contributed, last year Rodgers was sacked 51 times and had a running game that averaged less than four yards per carry. But he threw 39 touchdowns to only 8 interceptions, has a QB rating of 108, and took his team to the NFC title game.
Hopefully this season was just one negative blip on a long and successful career for Eli as quarterback. But what if it isn't? We look screwed for many years to come.
People refer to 2011's bad O-line and this year's bad o-line as if they were equal. This line was way worse in pass protection, and more importantly, trash up the middle. I honestly believe that there was not a starting caliber O-lineman at guard or center all year.
I think Eli has enough pocket awareness and pocket presence to mitigate bad tackle play to some degree. But this year has shown bad interior line play is a killer.
I would love it if the Gmen went interior Oline with 2 out of their first 3 picks. Fuck man, they could go Guard - center - guard and I'd still be happy.
This season was lost due to the O-line. Not the defense, not the RBs, and not even really the WRs (though they were way worse than expected)... this year is on the shitty, abominable o-line.
Please rewatch the panthers game.
Let's see, how many games has Eli missed since he became the starter? How many times has Eli skipped pre season workouts? How many times has Eli had his agent come out with a mysterious injury and have him skip practice.
Yeah. I think those who want Nicks reUpee for that to pay the cash. Always great to pay some player(and this isn't about Nicks only) millions as if it's no big deal. As if it has no cap implications? While Nicks can potentially bounce back if he expects a Mike Wallace type deal or honestly even Cruz $$$ I'd rather keep guys like Joseph and Beason and sign a mid tier FA WR.
If they bring back Boothe and Snee doesn't retire, WTHeck are the Giants plans? Add one player and go into 2014?
Dead wrong. By far and away the most consistent lineman. You could say Pugh but playing guard then switching to center with 2 young guys next to you is not an easy task even for the best of the best.
Manningham should be available cheap next season. He didn't learn the lesson of Steve Smith and Kevin Boss and now his best option to keep his career going is to crawl back to the Giants and Eli Manning. He had a solid year in 2010 with 60 catches for 944 yards, a 15.7 yard average, and 9 TDs.
Bring back Manningham. He knows this system and the Giants have a history of bringing guys back.
Other guys from the list I would like to have at the right price...
Decker
Boldin - a true professional
Golden Tate
Ginn - because we also need a real return man
I'd keep Tuck long before I kept Nicks.
Huh? In line blocking has been his most glaring weakness.
Sonic Youth
So, Sonic, tell us your list of Giants who are top tier players ... not HOFers ... not top in the league ... just players top 5 at their position ... can't wait to see your list.
As an example, take a look at QB.
After Peyton, Brady, Brees... how do you rank out the next tier of QBs? It's not liek you can just base it on statistical merit.
I'm not arguing that the Giants have any players who right now, are Top 5 at their position. But we do have guys like:
Victor Cruz - who at full health is arguably the best slot WR in the NFL
JPP - who is a year and back surgery removed from having a Top 5 DE season in the NFL
Will Hill - an up and coming talent who looks like he can be special
Justin Pugh - a top 5 talent? Maybe not, but arguably the best tackle to come out of last year's draft and will be a mainstay with us for years to come.
By the way...
Who were our top 5 talents when we won those last 2 Super Bowls?
2007:
Strahan
Burress (?)
Snee
2011:
Eli (up for debate, but down the stretch run, no question)
Cruz (maybe)
JPP
So, it's not like the Giants are done. They need to make some key re-signings, have a killer draft, and see if they can add a key piece or two in free agency.
2007 SB
Manning
Jacobs (in my mind the best RB in football in 2007)
OL (as a group, clearly top 5 in the NFL)
Steve Smith
Burress
Strahan
Tuck
Umenyiora
2011 SB (much more difficult to make my pt in 2011)
Manning
Nicks
Cruz
Phillips
JPP
Corey Webster
Both OL and DL, as units, played at very high levels in the playoffs, clearly near top of the league
As an example, take a look at QB.
After Peyton, Brady, Brees... how do you rank out the next tier of QBs? It's not liek you can just base it on statistical merit.
Victor Cruz - who at full health is arguably the best slot WR in the NFL
JPP - who is a year and back surgery removed from having a Top 5 DE season in the NFL
Will Hill - an up and coming talent who looks like he can be special
Justin Pugh - a top 5 talent? Maybe not, but arguably the best tackle to come out of last year's draft and will be a mainstay with us for years to come.
I agree re Cruz. I can only hope JPP plays again at a top level, but that is very far from being assured. Love Will Hill and Justin Pugh and I hope they turn out to be special players.
But, again, the Giants have a gap at the top of their roster. They have a lack of impact players (players in the past like Strahan, Jacobs, Tuck, JPP, Nicks, and Cruz). IMO, only Cruz makes that list moving forward. Can they restock? Sure. But right now it is disturbing to me that they don't have that talent already on the roster and need to make some home run hits in FA or the draft to get there - because without top level talent, the Giants are what they were this year. Average or worse.
After Peyton, Brady, Brees... how do you rank out the next tier of QBs? It's not liek you can just base it on statistical merit.
Should not be part of the above post
Two interesting names on that list to me, first is Kenny Britt on a prove it deal.
2nd is Bubba Caldwell, a burner who has taken time to develop but may be ascending.
Carolina, SF and Seattle yes. Outside of them I do not think anyone else has more talent. Problem is the Giants best players are all playing bad or hurt
Not sure that's the case for the season. I think the loss of Snee and Baas, with Diehl degrading to one of the worse linemen in the league (according to PFF), throws things off that have indirect affects on the receivers. Eli couldn't execute the plays he and Nicks used to execute without much difficulty, and the biggest difference is that line. They can't sustain blocks and that affected Eli's confidence and his mechanics. What might also be affecting Nicks are the leg and ankle injuries... he may be 1/2 step off, and that's bad for a guy who was never fast to begin with (4.63 combine 40) when it comes to getting separation, or dealing with a Corner's closing speed. Nicks didn't mail it in... the poor line translated to broken connections between Eli and his receivers.
Nicks won't accept any offer that is remotely in line with what should be offered.
Tuck, Andre Brown, McBride, Myers, JBrown and a few others have roles on the team as long as they have a reasonable contract. There's a couple who are worth bringing back on minimum contracts.