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Graziano ESPN: Will the Giants re-sign Linval Joseph?

Defenderdawg : 12/25/2013 4:30 pm
"I asked some people what Joseph could expect to get. Former player agent Joel Corry said he would constantly be reminding the Giants that they themselves set a high market for defensive tackles when they gave Chris Canty a six-year, $42 million deal with $16 million guaranteed five offseasons ago. Canty was 26 at that time. Joseph is 25. Not crazy for him to ask for more than that, right?

Two offseasons ago, the Giants let a 27-year-old Barry Cofield leave without making an effort to keep him, and he signed for six years and $36 million (with $12.5 million guaranteed) with the division-rival Washington Redskins. Does that indicate the Giants have changed their position on the market value for defensive tackles in their prime? Or did they believe they had coverage at that position when they let Cofield walk?"

Link - ( New Window )
$7M a year for 6 years?  
Bill in UT : 12/25/2013 4:38 pm : link
It's been nice knowing you, Lonnie.
Ben in Tampa : 12/25/2013 4:44 pm : link
If the ghosts if that Canty contract haunts us here. Canty was a good player in NY, but that contract was way out of whack.
I was considering this carefully the other day  
Optimus-NY : 12/25/2013 4:49 pm : link
I'd let him walk.
AcidTest : 12/25/2013 4:51 pm : link
do everything I could to keep him, even up to $6M, depending on the signing bonus. But I agree that after that, you'd have to let him go. I just wonder if he can really get more considering he is not a complete player.
why wouldn't they franchise him?  
DavidinBMNY : 12/25/2013 4:56 pm : link
Wouldn't that be 5 mm?
Canty was at times a dominant player, more so than LJ,  
BlueLou : 12/25/2013 4:59 pm : link
but his injuries as a Giant made the contract a bad deal for Reese. I think Linval will get something less than Canty, because almost always it takes more to bring a player from another team than to re-sign your own guy. Rolle is another example of over-spending because they needed to bring him into the fold. But Tuck and Kiwi both signed friendlier deals to remain Giants.

Almost undoubtedly LJ will be handled as a priority signing - whatever that will entail.
Who do we  
AnishPatel : 12/25/2013 4:59 pm : link
keep? Bunch of vets and the rookie? And hope they do the job? Let's see if Fewell is extended or not.
Re franchising him, if the Giants want him they can (and have)  
BlueLou : 12/25/2013 5:08 pm : link
use the franchise tag as leverage to get a better deal for the team. Players don't like it, but the tag puts them in the treacherous position of getting one year of a big salary rather than a guarantee and a lower overall yearly contract. Wouldn't surprise me at all if the FO franchises LJ.
I want him back, but I think a team ot there will pay him a pretty  
Optimus-NY : 12/25/2013 5:20 pm : link
penny to leave. Considering the fact they have his replacement already on the roster in Hankins, it's reasonable to assume that the Giants will set a price for LJ's services, as they do for all of their FAs. If he exceeds that price--which I think he will--then he's going to bolt. If it wasn't for the cap, this wouldn't even be a conversation. You bring him back, especially because he's young. The market for Linval's services will ultimately make this decision for the Giants. Teams with cap room will jump at the opportunity to sign a player like him.
Going to be tough to keep him, it sucks.  
arcarsenal : 12/25/2013 5:26 pm : link
We'll have to lean on Big Hank a lot more next year if LinJo is gone.
It is an interesting question, if Hankins is seen as LJ's replacement,  
BlueLou : 12/25/2013 5:37 pm : link
or as additional/adjacent wide body guy with decent athleticism to pair with Linval to set the Giants up at DT for a number of years. Two guys like that really set the table for a smaller, quick and instinctive Mike LB like Beason.
There's also Kuhn.. whom I'm not really enamored with..  
arcarsenal : 12/25/2013 5:47 pm : link
But apparently the Giants like him so they probably envision him taking on a bit of a bigger role next season as well.
He is top priority  
Grandpa : 12/25/2013 6:00 pm : link
To sign. The D line is full of question marks with age and injuries. Hankins may work out but LJ is a young solid player developing into a quiet leader by his performance. It took till this season to get a decent run defense back in the middle after Cofield left. Why repeat that when your home grown player is already here?
Wait did any of you think he would be signing for less then 6 mil/yr??  
rasbutant : 12/25/2013 6:02 pm : link
Just go to your fav cap sight and check the going rate. 6 mil would be a good deal for the giants.
Arcs, sure Kuhn is prolly looked at as another DT viable for the  
BlueLou : 12/25/2013 6:15 pm : link
rotation, but they are not really "loaded" at DT because IMO there's a more than decent chance they let Tuck depart and swing Jenkins out to left DE to replace Tuck, and then Hank's and Kuhn's snaps at DT replace Jenkins'.

If you figure Moore and Hankins are both gonna come on in year 2, you let Tuck go IMO.
If they could get him for Cofield's deal, I'd do it  
jeff57 : 12/25/2013 6:28 pm : link
The more I think about it, I guess Hankins was drafted because  
BlueLou : 12/25/2013 6:46 pm : link
Marvin Austin was a waste, not because they didn't plan to keep LJ. And Patterson was a stop gap signing because of Kuhn's injury. The only thing that keeps them from holding onto LJ is lJ's own desire to leave, and money.
When you factor out dead money  
Bill in UT : 12/25/2013 7:05 pm : link
Kiwi will cost $1.8M next year. Outside of Clowney, there are no sure impacp DEs in the draft. And an impact DE if a available in the draft will be too expensive. If we can resign Tuck for maybe $2.5M or so, I can see keeping him and Kiwi next year behind Moore and JPP. Both Kiwi and Tuck have been played at DT this season. Then I'd bring in a project at DE or bring Trattou back
RE: It is an interesting question, if Hankins is seen as LJ's replacement,  
Optimus-NY : 12/25/2013 7:21 pm : link
In comment 11414571 BlueLou said:
or as additional/adjacent wide body guy with decent athleticism to pair with Linval to set the Giants up at DT for a number of years. Two guys like that really set the table for a smaller, quick and instinctive Mike LB like Beason.

That's why I'd love to keep him. Coughlin had two big monsters anchoring his DL in Jacksonville back in the day in John Henderson and Marcus Stroud. Having these two young guys there would really make the Giants a tough team to run against. Add Jenkins into the mix, and that's a nice set of DTs going into next year and beyond.
For Bill in Ut-  
BlueLou : 12/25/2013 7:24 pm : link
Tuck earned 4.5 mil in salary in '13. You think he's gonna re-sign for 2.5? Tuck is a very interesting guy and smart enough to see the benefit of finishing his career in NY as a Giant but...

that's a big pay cut for a guy who's had a bounce back type year.
RE: why wouldn't they franchise him?  
81_Great_Dane : 12/25/2013 7:30 pm : link
In comment 11414542 DavidinBMNY said:
Wouldn't that be 5 mm?
Franchise tag for DT is $8.45 million. Even the transition tag would be $7 million+.
Franchise tag explained, with values for each position - ( New Window )
Don't know, Lou  
Bill in UT : 12/25/2013 7:31 pm : link
I guess it's JR's job to figure out what he's worth. But $5 M would seem like a lot of money to me. What they might pay Linval could factor in
Excellent run-stopping defensive tackles are rare  
dpinzow : 12/25/2013 8:46 pm : link
in this do whatever it takes up to 7.5M per year to keep Linval
The Giants have been stopping the run all year  
Bill in UT : 12/25/2013 8:57 pm : link
with 4 guys making $1.1M and less, not counting Joseph
Paying Linval 7MIL+ is nuts when you have Hankins.  
Jim in Forest Hills : 12/25/2013 9:01 pm : link
They have too many holes elsewhere.
I think all this let linval go stuff is crazy.  
shabu : 12/25/2013 9:24 pm : link
When we let Coefield go we had problems in the middle until we signed Canty.

Linval is solid and is not injury prone and a known quantity, why take a chance ?

I also think that with the drop-off in talent at DE you have to put the $$ somewhere, it certainly is not at DE anymore.

Also, I think folks are underestimating the drop off in production when linval is gone...
PaulN : 12/25/2013 9:57 pm : link
And don't let the door hit you in the ass. We sucked with him, we can suck without him. HE IS NOT A DIFFERENCE MAKER OR EVEN A PLAYMAKER, ITS INSANE TO EVEN CONSIDER THOSE NUMBERS, THIS IS A NO BRAINER. When was the last time he even made a play that wen took notice of. Jenkins played better, look at what we are paying him. Bye.
Love Tuck, but if you were a disinterested fan looking back at  
Reese's Pieces : 12/25/2013 10:00 pm : link
his last three seasons, what would you make of him?

You might think that he didn't start playing hard in 2011 until the chance for another run at the Super Bowl opened up and he didn't start playing hard in 2013 until he began to read in the newspapers that he might be unemployed next year.

It might just be a beaten-up body that keeps him from putting up maximum effort every game.

I'm thinking re-sign Tuck right now but do I think he would start off next season like he finished this season? Probably not.
arcarsenal : 12/25/2013 10:04 pm : link
In comment 11414671 PaulN said:
And don't let the door hit you in the ass. We sucked with him, we can suck without him. HE IS NOT A DIFFERENCE MAKER OR EVEN A PLAYMAKER, ITS INSANE TO EVEN CONSIDER THOSE NUMBERS, THIS IS A NO BRAINER. When was the last time he even made a play that wen took notice of. Jenkins played better, look at what we are paying him. Bye.

Wow, this is horrible logic.

We sucked this year with LinJo.. with Cruz, Rolle, JPP.. the franchise QB.. and we also won a Super Bowl just 2 years ago WITH those guys with each of them playing significant roles in us doing so.

DT's like Joseph aren't "playmakers". That's not what those guys are there for. If you're waiting for highlight reel plays from players like Linval Joseph, you have a good deal to still learn about football.

If you want to watch teams run the ball at will on us, letting Joseph go would be a great first step in accomplishing that.
pganut : 12/25/2013 10:05 pm : link
I would like to keep Linval, at a reasonable rate. I understand this is a business. He's not part of the problem, rather the opposite.
It's so annoying how the higher age and cap players you want to  
Reese's Pieces : 12/25/2013 10:19 pm : link
get off your roster so often happen to be your best players.
you tell 'em pganut!  
Optimus-NY : 12/25/2013 10:29 pm : link
...fucking Gauls
pganut : 12/25/2013 10:33 pm : link
Real men are from Thrace.

Happy holidays, my brother!
pganut - lol dude  
Optimus-NY : 12/25/2013 10:40 pm : link
Ha ha! Same to you.

Gannicus Singing the blues - ( New Window )
Was thinking about this as well  
nygiants1114 : 12/25/2013 10:54 pm : link
With all the FA-over 30-Giants need all the cap space they can get. Need to maintain flexibility. I think not resigning him if he gets crazy money is a good move. Personally i have my eye on Pat Sims on a 2 year deal to either replace linval or Rogers/Patterson. Monster of a season-good player-should come cheap relatively. Although this past offseason the FA Market was very barren. Terrence Knighton last offseason only got 2 years 4.5 million. We will see.
I still like the idea of amending the cap rules so that home-grown  
Reese's Pieces : 12/26/2013 12:09 am : link
players drafted or signed as undrafted free agents don't charge as much against the cap. It should be easier to keep the players that you developed.
Matt M. : 12/26/2013 12:27 am : link
I like that idea, similar to the NBA. It is becoming increasingly more difficult to really retain drafted players.
I like the idea of re-signing Joseph  
Matt M. : 12/26/2013 12:29 am : link
but, not to a huge contract. I feel that way about most of the Giants FAs we would like to re-sign. There is nobody on the roster for whom I would break the bank.
Terrance Knighton is a pretty good comparison,  
BlueLou : 12/26/2013 3:48 am : link
at least when Knighton is on his game. But I think, and I haven't followed Knighton closely enough to be sure, that Knighton's A game that he delivers sporadically is pretty much what Linval brings to the table every game. You gotta respect (and pay) LJ for that consistency and the odds that LJ likely has upside at his age. He is known as the physically strongest guy on the team, a model worker behind the scenes, and that's worth something too as Graziano suggests (although I'm not sure where Graziano gets that info from.)

He's worth something like 6 mil per for a long term deal IMO, and if JR can't close a long term deal with LJ I think it's feasible the GMEN will franchise him, even at 8.5 mil, to pressure LJ into a long term deal with the Giants...

They are very quiet on this so there's no way to know what's going on behind the scenes between LJ and the Giants' FO, but my best guess would be they are trying to work something out. Look at what they gave Beatty, and no way Beatty has been close to LJ in overall productivity or value since the two have been Giants... but the Giants are likely better set at DT too and were more desperate on their OL when the re-upped Beatty, so that's another variable in play here.

The FO almost surely sees Linval as a more important and productive cog than Beatty, no?

I don't like picking on anyone really but...

if PaulN thinks LJ is a kinda "don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out" guy you can almost bet the opposite is really the case, nuh?
Would suck to let a good young player go  
Steve in South Jersey : 12/26/2013 6:12 am : link
who was a 2nd round pick. The Giants put a big investment in him and he paid off. He should be a quality player for years to come. Letting a young Cofield go looks like a mistake now too.
Clearly no one wants to overpay at any position but  
Jimmy Googs : 12/26/2013 9:40 am : link
I don't know how we can let Joseph go without a good fight on $. We say we wanted to get better in the trenches on both lines and Linval is one of the guys that actually does it.

Obviously some good planning went into this b/c we drafted Hankins. Jenkins and Patterson are both reliable but are on the downside of their careers where injuries and performance declines would not be a surprise in 2014.

Relying at all on Kuhn is a mistake imo. And I don't give the coaches the benefit of the doubt on this one as he has done NOTHING when he played. My guess is he does well going against our scrub interior lineman in practice.

Linval, Beason and Rolle are probably the most important pieces of our defense and deserve to soak up the dollars.

He's a priority signing up to the value we've assigned to him  
JonC : 12/26/2013 9:42 am : link
We're not likely to overspend to keep him, especially after hedging our bets drafting Hankins.
The DT position has been the best positon  
GMANinDC : 12/26/2013 10:53 am : link
the team has had. It hasn't been that goo since they let Cofield go..

You build your team form the inside. You have to pay the guy so that you can have stability on the team and the line. It makes the DE play that more lethal (granted, they need better DE's)..

Counting on Hankins reeks of desperation..Just like counting on Austin..At some point, you have to stop remaking your roster every year and keep some stability. Its been the same with LB'ers..New faces every year..
"pay the guy"  
JonC : 12/26/2013 10:55 am : link
Easy for a fan to demand, but with a salary cap your power to do so is finite.

$6M per? Yes, that makes sense to me. $8M per? No, that figure is beyond his value and perhaps what value he projects to carry in the near future.
GMANinDC : 12/26/2013 11:08 am : link
Agreed, but i doubt many teams are going to spend 8M on LJ..I think 6M is going to be his range..Cofield got that contract because of the Skins..Just like Haynesworth..

He's not a top DT so anything north of 7M is crazy talk..So i don't see signing him a problem..
I hope so.  
old man : 12/26/2013 12:55 pm : link
However, my answer is:at that price, what round comp pick will we get?
" pay that man his money"  
gtt350 : 12/26/2013 1:46 pm : link
Dragon : 12/26/2013 2:18 pm : link
Problem is that Hankins is there and they are almost identical players stout against the run but no pass rush. You need to solid three solid DT's we have one signed Jenkins one who seems to be talented in Hankins and our best guy LJ but does he want to be here is the question. These players are about money nothing wrong with that but it's been proven most FA's don't produce for the new team as well as the former team.
This is what I don't like about the Cap and the NFL.  
chops : 12/26/2013 3:50 pm : link
In the old days, they could retain players like Rosey Brown, Katcavage and others. Sure, Rosey Grier went west, but the nucleus stayed.

Now, it's hello and goodbye. And they pay them too much money.

I can't see the salaries of Eli, Cruz, and the rest as being worth what they

produce for the team. That's how I feel.
if it meant signing Alex Mack  
Rory : 12/26/2013 9:10 pm : link
I'd rather resign Patterson/Rogers and let LJ go.

As much as I hate to say it, but I feel like the upgrade on the Oline would outweigh the drop off by 5X.
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