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"blowing up roster, get younger" etc arguement

TrueBlue : 12/26/2013 1:57 am
I don't understand a lot of the comments people have on this site. I read a post from someone saying not to take Tuck back at minimum salary, we need to be younger and similar arguements.

Sports today are won by the GM who can build a team that will outplay its contracts. A 10 sack DE with a 2 million dollar deal is more valuable than a 12 sack DE with a 5 million dollar deal. The trick is to know a players value and pay less. There is no set age that wins a super bowl and teams dont repeat bc they overpay to keep players bc all super bowl winners contracts go up.

The get younger arguement is garbage. Young players arent free agents bc they are under contract. The ones who arent got cut. You get one pick per round plus any compensatory picks. You cant just fill a roster with young talent. If you go into the draft with a need for five opening day starters your season is already over. Even if you scout exceptionally well and hit on those picks you didnt draft depth and youll fall apart.

Rookies dont pan out. Sinorice Moss was a 2nd rd wr. He had a dozen nfl catches. Wilson cant hold a football. If you fill a team with question marks your gonna lose. If you build a competitive team with question marks behind them hitting on a few can put you over the top

Its ridiculous to me to write off a player before you even see his price tag
for minimum...give me Tuck, Kiwi, Webster, whoever...  
SHO'NUFF : 12/26/2013 4:23 am : link
just limit their playing time, bring them off the bench. I wouldn't sign Diehl for a penny, however.
Webster is done,  
gtt350 : 12/26/2013 6:12 am : link
ty and goodbye
Same with Nicks  
JohnB : 12/26/2013 6:14 am : link
I'd look to resign him cheaply. If he wants the big dollars, let him walk.
The problem is that Coughlin  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 12/26/2013 7:39 am : link
Won't play the younger players if those old vets are there.
Teams like the Seahawks and Chiefs  
Bill in UT : 12/26/2013 8:45 am : link
Have done a great job getting young and good quickly. The key to the process, I believe, is having a GM office that's great at evaluating and a coaching staff that's great at developing talent. I'm afraid we don't have either. So while I like the younger/cheaper theory, I'm pessimistic that we can pull it off quickly under the current regime
As to the OP  
Bill in UT : 12/26/2013 8:52 am : link
I agree that the whole job may not get done in one year and don't object to keeping some vet players like Kiwi and Tuck short term at the right price. We'll have to see how much money is needed to sign FAs, both our own and outsiders. The big pool of cheap talent is the UDFAs. Using that and the pool of veterans cut as cap casualties is really the key to a successful substantial turnover
Another  
DTgiants : 12/26/2013 9:19 am : link
problem I see based on Coughlin's statements about possibly coming back next year is he will be out to prove something so he will be more stubborn than ever. No coaching changes will take place and very little roster turnovers because he will be out to prove that his system, players and coaches can win!This will result in 4 or 5 wins next year.
a major factor in winning  
5J : 12/26/2013 9:28 am : link
As u said is to under pay for talent. especially at the QB position. example the giants pay 20 million for Eli. Seattle pays less than 1 million for Wilson. that right there is an extra 20 million to spend on the rest of your team.

Seattle
Carolina
49ers
eagles
colts
chiefs

all are not paying an insanely large amount for the QB and will make the playoffs.

In general, this IS a younger team  
JonC : 12/26/2013 9:34 am : link
Posters tend to focus on the aging veterans who had poor seasons.

The above is one ingredient to a poor season, another is that a big portion of the younger talent isn't stepping up effectively.
RE: In general, this IS a younger team  
JOrthman : 12/26/2013 9:41 am : link
In comment 11414817 JonC said:
Quote:
Posters tend to focus on the aging veterans who had poor seasons.

The above is one ingredient to a poor season, another is that a big portion of the younger talent isn't stepping up effectively.


What Jon said...Didn't we go into the season with Eli as a leading rusher? If that doesn't say we were young, I don't know what does.
Young franchise QBs  
87giants91 : 12/26/2013 9:41 am : link
Teams like Seattle with young franchise QBs will have to pay huge contracts once the respective rookie contracts
expire.
And those young QB prices will accelerate  
chad : 12/26/2013 9:46 am : link
with a couple of Super Bowl wins including a couple of SB MVPs. Look at Flacco. You've got to pay the piper.
I second Jon's post  
GMANinDC : 12/26/2013 9:47 am : link
And i'll add, the team is too young. It needs more veterans presence to get the younger guys in line and to play harder..

Young = inexperience..
It also needs to draft better  
JonC : 12/26/2013 9:48 am : link
We're not getting much return from drafts that should be producing NFL talent by now.
And about the Seahawks  
GMANinDC : 12/26/2013 9:52 am : link
I wouldn't say they got young and good quickly..They accumulated a lot of high draft picks for being such a terrible team for a few years ..
someone posted recently how the Seahawks are  
JonC : 12/26/2013 9:56 am : link
hitting talent in the rounds 3-range (iirc), in addition to 1-2, highlighting where NYG is failing in the mid rounds.
RE: someone posted recently how the Seahawks are  
AnishPatel : 12/26/2013 10:02 am : link
In comment 11414852 JonC said:
[quote] hitting talent in the rounds 3-range (iirc), in addition to 1-2, highlighting where NYG is failing in the mid rounds. [/quote

That's correct. Since Ross has come aboard our drafts have gone hill. We have hit on first round picks, but after that it's been brutal.
The Seahawks wen 5 years  
GMANinDC : 12/26/2013 10:07 am : link
without a winning record. That will give you opportunities to get great talent..
JonC  
GMANinDC : 12/26/2013 10:09 am : link
That seems to be the problem. Making reaches between rounds 2 - 5..And it seems to be always a WR that or a LB that they're missing on..
A lot of  
AnishPatel : 12/26/2013 10:18 am : link
our missed picks aren't in the NFL even. Austin I believe is, and Kehl. Everyone else washed out after we let them go. I am not sure if that's the norm, but our mid round picks are project picks. Due to degradation of talent, age, and injury, we have called on our project picks to help, and some had to be shoved in early, and some still not ready like AR.

We can't afford to keep guys that aren't contributing.
RE: Teams like the Seahawks and Chiefs  
EricJ (formerly Tyleraimee) : 12/26/2013 10:18 am : link
In comment 11414771 Bill in UT said:
Quote:
Have done a great job getting young and good quickly.


Last year the Chiefs won how many games? This year they are one of the best in the AFC. They did not turn over their roster. So, one would conclude that the coach is the reason why they got good quickly.
RE: a major factor in winning  
JCin332 : 12/26/2013 10:23 am : link
In comment 11414809 5J said:
Quote:
As u said is to under pay for talent. especially at the QB position. example the giants pay 20 million for Eli. Seattle pays less than 1 million for Wilson. that right there is an extra 20 million to spend on the rest of your team.

Seattle
Carolina
49ers
eagles
colts
chiefs

all are not paying an insanely large amount for the QB and will make the playoffs.


The goal is to win championships not make the playoffs..get back to me when any of these QB's have won 2 SB's..
Chiefs' roster  
Bill in UT : 12/26/2013 10:32 am : link
I could be wrong, but I thought the Chiefs have something like 30 new guys on the team this year
The chiefs  
GMANinDC : 12/26/2013 10:32 am : link
another team that had the opportunity to get young good talent because of years of bad football..

They also had 6 (iirc) Pro Bowlers last year..
I think we have a few different things going on with the Giants..  
EricJ (formerly Tyleraimee) : 12/26/2013 10:32 am : link
and it isn't just ONE thing...

1. We have not drafted well despite what anyone says.

2. We do not seem to (for the most part) allow our young players to develop on game day. We rely on the practice field for that and to me that is a huge mistake. It is rare to see a rookie step in and be allowed to provide a significant contribution. What happened in 2007 was almost an accident. Then, IF you give a young player an opportunity and he screws up, Coughlin puts him in the penalty box for a long time. These players think more about NOT making a mistake vs trying to make a spectacular play. What I would have done with Wilson after his first fumble against Dallas would have been to put him right back out there. He is not going to improve by just THINKING ABOUT IT on the bench.

3. Player development in general - I think this is now a serious problem. We supposedly have a good O line coach but the entire line is struggling? Even at other positions we see players decline vs improve so often. Why are they not getting better?

4. Strength and conditioning. Is it me or do we seem like we are in general slower and weaker man to man vs our opponents? We win no battles on the O line. We lost most battles on the D line. Our corners get dragged down field. On punt returns, we cannot hold the gunners even with two guys on them, on and on and on...

5. Depth - our misses in the draft obviously means that when a starter goes down then there is a significant drop off. It also means that our special teams will suck unless we play starters on specials.

6. Coaching philosophy - IMO this coaching staff builds a plan and forces the players to run plays that are designed. I may be wrong but to me it does not seem like we design our plan/plays based upon the personnel that we have and take advantage or exploit a particular talent that may exist on the roster. Example...if Wilson is good in open spaces then why were we not doing everything to get him the ball in open spaces?
EricJ...  
drkenneth : 12/26/2013 10:43 am : link
I agree overall, but most with #6. Coughlin wants to play his way, no matter what the personnel dictates. And I think this is major reason for the ups and downs of this team.

How many times have we seen this team run it 3x at the goal line, even when we can't run for shit???

Tom needs to freshen things up in 2014 to be successful. The first 2 & 10 inside hand-off, red zone fade, or Eli int, is going to bring a whirl-wind of shit.
EricJ  
Bill in UT : 12/26/2013 11:08 am : link
Good post
RE: EricJ...  
AnishPatel : 12/26/2013 11:20 am : link
In comment 11414919 drkenneth said:
Quote:
I agree overall, but most with #6. Coughlin wants to play his way, no matter what the personnel dictates. And I think this is major reason for the ups and downs of this team.

How many times have we seen this team run it 3x at the goal line, even when we can't run for shit???

Tom needs to freshen things up in 2014 to be successful. The first 2 & 10 inside hand-off, red zone fade, or Eli int, is going to bring a whirl-wind of shit.



I agree, I still can't believe when we ran it 3 straight times at the goal line. You have a franchise QB throw it! And during a game where he as Ints, you call a fucking hail mary. I mean come on now! Add one more INT to his stat column. And the time in a different game you can add a TD to his column, you run it 3X times.

Things better change this off season.
can we stop with this crap that Coughlin won't play rookies over vets?  
djm : 12/26/2013 11:45 am : link
it's just a flat out lie.....Eli Manning, a wet nosed rookie played over veteran Kurt Warner with the team sitting at 5-4 and very much alive in the playoff race.

Brandon Jacobs played as a rookie. Bradshaw played as a rookie. DAVID WILSON played as a rookie.

Nicks played his rookie season. So did Chris Snee. So did Steve Smith. So did Kevin Boss. Aaron Ross? Yep he started most of his rookie season...Webster tried to play and sucked but he played as a rookie too. KEnny Phillips played a lot as a rookie. So did Terrel Thomas. Jay Alford played as a rookie. JPP played his rookie season. Kiwi played his rookie year and he played a lot. Justin Pugh played in every game his rookie year. Even Ruben Randle got some burn as his rookie year progressed and everyone knows he was a raw player that couldn't run a route if you drew it up in the sand for him to see.

Yea, David Wilson had problems getting on the field his rookie season. Know why? Because he sucked. And he sucked this year too. Mario Manningham wasn't ready to play his rookie year. NEither was Linval Joseph but he too played down the stretch during his rookie campaign.

Coughlin playes rookies. HE doesn't play rookies that aren't ready to play.
Better yet,  
Doomster : 12/26/2013 11:47 am : link
third and goal from about the 10 yard line, let's catch them by surprise and run the ball.....caught our receivers by surprise too....they were running pass patterns....
and to the poster  
djm : 12/26/2013 11:51 am : link
that actually states Coughlin won't bring in or play new talent just to prove his old crusty system still works? That may be the most ridiculous thing ever posted on BBI this year. There are 5 days left maybe someone takes the title but I doubt it.

The same coach who staked his reputation on a rookie QB while Kurt Warner, a super bowl MVP had the team sitting at 5-4 and alive for a playoff berth? That coach won't play young talent or new guys because he's too concerned with proving his system works?

doomster  
djm : 12/26/2013 11:55 am : link
no matter what play call they go with on 3rd n 10, it wasn't working. I didn't love the play calling this season but fans get too worked up on play calling when they should be concerned with the execution, or lack of execution.

In 2008, that 3rd down draw went for 20 yards. In 2010 it worked. In the 2011-12 postseason that draw play worked.

Nothing worked this season. Pass on first down and Eli was taking a sack or throwing the ball away. 2nd and long...run for 2. 3rd and long...incomplete. Try running on 3rd and long...and they got 5 yards and punted.

The 1990 Giants ran the ball all day long when everyone knew it was coming. And it worked. Execution trumps play calling.

Fix the OL. Bring in a legit RB to compliment Brown and coach the hell out of Eli and this offense and the play calling will look a lot better in 2014.
Every time Manningham came into the game  
drkenneth : 12/26/2013 11:57 am : link
his rookie year....They ran a screen to him.
And Brandon Myers can't block.  
drkenneth : 12/26/2013 11:59 am : link
So what do we do? Make him block!

Nicks can't walk? Cart him out there as a "decoy"!

Tim Carter  
AnishPatel : 12/26/2013 11:59 am : link
used to run our end arounds and Ward or Ware ran a RB screen too. I forgot which guy did it.
And to be crystal clear:  
drkenneth : 12/26/2013 12:03 pm : link
I'm not calling for Coughlin to be fired. But the idea that he can just kick up his feet and say "Get me better players" or "the execution is bad" is just silly.

TC has not coached well the past 2 seasons. He needs to freshen things up a bit.

I hear this constant BS that his teams are "disciplined" and he has "changed his ways" in the past. If he's a HOF coach, he'll adapt to the times.
Two more follow up points based upon the responses...  
EricJ (formerly Tyleraimee) : 12/26/2013 12:17 pm : link
1. The goal line thing. I am in favor of running, but not out of a formation that basically says all you are going to do is run. We make it too easy to defend. why bring in 3 TEs to stack the line? Spread the field and give the defense something else to think about. Maybe a few guys have to back off of the line giving you a snowball's chance to run through there.

2. The Kurt Warner thing... yes we were 5-4 BUT if you recall we lost the entire defense to injury by that 9th game. IMO, despite our current record, there was no way we could advance into and through the playoffs based upon what was left on our roster. To me, the Giants were smart and said heck with it lets at least get Eli some experience under his belt so that his first game as a pro is not the first game of the season next year.
RE: and to the poster  
DTgiants : 12/26/2013 12:19 pm : link
In comment 11414995 djm said:
Quote:
that actually states Coughlin won't bring in or play new talent just to prove his old crusty system still works? That may be the most ridiculous thing ever posted on BBI this year. There are 5 days left maybe someone takes the title but I doubt it.

The same coach who staked his reputation on a rookie QB while Kurt Warner, a super bowl MVP had the team sitting at 5-4 and alive for a playoff berth? That coach won't play young talent or new guys because he's too concerned with proving his system works?

One question for you Gilbride and Coughlin have said many times that they do not have the personnel on offense to run their scheme. Have they changed their scheme to fit their current personnel?
I would argue no, other than a few changes but they always go back to their system which I think is no longer effective and other teams have figured out.
This is why I do not think he will make any major or minor changes to his staff or personnel. He is stubborn which is an asset and a fault.
EricJ  
old man : 12/26/2013 12:27 pm : link
has made a great summarizing analysis.
There seems to be a disconnect with what we do on O and D and the players we acquire, mostly after rds 1 and 2. And I've been touting the younger, faster players, and anti-NYFG strengthening-system mantra for several years.
If you look at our needs:
3 interior OLs, at least 2 faster LBs, 1-2 taller DBs, 1-2 WRs that instill fear in the backs with their speed or ability to get off the line quickly AND can block,and any other position needs I am omitting, that is a lot of missing.
I will discount some of the needs due to the vast number of injuries that forced us to lose talented players(mostly 26) such as KPhillips, TT(for the most part), SSmith, KBoss,JAlford,ABradshaw,that would have been contributing well here, if significantly healthy, for the last 3 years.
But there has been a lot of 'missing' in replacing those young guys.
If you look at the roster, how many veterans will contribute well in '14, especially when most of BBIers have been saying those same guys have lost it all year?
When Jimmy Johnson was building the 'Boys, in the first 3 years there, they brought in almost 1,000 players via draft, FA, and open tryouts, until he found the group he wanted(and most of that # in the first 2 years).The CBA may not allow for that kind of search today, but the concept is there.
And given the cap casualties that started in '13 and have to happen after this Sunday anyway, the current roster is getting blown up anyway, or else '14 may end up being a '13 re-do, record-wise.
EricJ pretty well sums it up.  
Red Dog : 12/26/2013 12:47 pm : link
I will give Major Tom a semi-pass on not playing the new guys though.

Generally they haven't been as good as the guys that they are being asked to replace, and that's why they are sitting while vets like Diehl play.

When the newcomers have been good enough to play regularly, they have played. But most of them haven't been good enough, and that relates back to the drafting problem as much as to any other factors like getting used to the speed and strength requirements of the pro game or being able to provide quality pass protection or whatever.
The Giants attitude is they are competing for the playoffs every year  
PatersonPlank : 12/26/2013 12:59 pm : link
Their attitude is not they are rebuilding. So with this stance, of course he is not going to play rookies until they beat out the veterans. He is playing the best players we have at each position. If we were rebuilding then we would experiment more, and put the young guys in to get experience and "see what they do". As the poster above points out, Coughlin does play rookies when justified.
What the real problem is  
Vegas Steve : 12/26/2013 1:00 pm : link
a lack of talent.

This is JR's fault. The buck stops here at his desk.

I don't care who the coach is... if you don't have quality players you can't win.

JR's love for the D-line is quite apparent with all the first and second day picks he's spent on them, but he's forgotten the # 1 rule of football "You Win this Game in the trenches. On offense, we have been dominated by nearly every team we played.

We have some very good Coaches but even good coaches can't make sub par talented players into spun gold.

This falls squarely on the shoulders of our GM JR. His failure to secure the talent by either Draft or FA has resulted in the season of broken dreams.

Now TC and his OC and DC are not blameless either but before I fire them I want to know who are we going to get to replace them?

We all know a change is needed the real questions is who can facilitate this change. Do you know?
Or  
DTgiants : 12/26/2013 1:07 pm : link
is the system too complicated?
With the O line...  
EricJ (formerly Tyleraimee) : 12/26/2013 1:17 pm : link
we are at the point where some of these veterans cannot be any worse than a rookie. When you see guys like Diehl completely whiff on blocks and then have Eli getting destroyed immediately after, then you have to sit down that veteran. There is no way anyone can do worse. All of us here on BBI could at least get a HAND on a guy. It would at least take a half second for the D lineman to run over one of us on his path to Eli. BUT... when you do not even get in the way, then you serve absolutely NO purpose other than maybe not jumping offsides.
Hey,djm. I agree 100%.  
chops : 12/26/2013 4:18 pm : link
.
there is no good arguement for keeping  
ed90631 : 12/26/2013 4:40 pm : link
aging veterens on a team that just went (at best)7-9 and has been in decline for two seasons.

The last super bowl win was two seasons ago. Reese's and Coughlin's jobs are not to savor the past but to navigate to the future. Leave wallowing in nostaligia to the fans.
RE: there is no good arguement for keeping  
mdc1 : 12/26/2013 6:32 pm : link
In comment 11415370 ed90631 said:
Quote:
aging veterens on a team that just went (at best)7-9 and has been in decline for two seasons.

The last super bowl win was two seasons ago. Reese's and Coughlin's jobs are not to savor the past but to navigate to the future. Leave wallowing in nostaligia to the fans.


exactly, folks need to get over their emotional attachments. I'll bet those PSL owners are digging keeping underperformers around.
I will disagree  
Bill in UT : 12/26/2013 6:40 pm : link
Sometimes a veteran at a low price is useful to keep around until you find someone younger who you think will be better. I'd rather have a mediocre vet than a crappy kid. And with the Giant scouting dept. that's not an unlikely possibility
You get younger and cheaper by drafting well  
LauderdaleMatty : 12/26/2013 7:08 pm : link
Reese hasn't. Reese and his scouts are the issue. Add to that giving out deals to guys like Beatty and Baas and you have the last two years.
RE: RE: a major factor in winning  
5J : 12/26/2013 10:56 pm : link
In comment 11414894 JCin332 said:
Quote:
In comment 11414809 5J said:


Quote:


As u said is to under pay for talent. especially at the QB position. example the giants pay 20 million for Eli. Seattle pays less than 1 million for Wilson. that right there is an extra 20 million to spend on the rest of your team.

Seattle
Carolina
49ers
eagles
colts
chiefs

all are not paying an insanely large amount for the QB and will make the playoffs.




The goal is to win championships not make the playoffs..get back to me when any of these QB's have won 2 SB's..


No these QB haven't won 2 SB. that's not the point. and when the giants won 2 SB they were not paying 20 million for eli. these teams pay for winning the SB after it happens and they become handcuffed by injuries, aging vets and poor drafting. the margin of error is much less.

giants are paying th price for winning 2 SB. just like super bowl winners in the past few years are. as well as Atlanta.

Im grateful they won them obviously. its just a fact that these teams getting great production from underpaid QB have a much easier time building a winner, as did the giants.
RE: Another  
dcable : 12/27/2013 7:25 pm : link
In comment 11414796 DTgiants said:
Quote:
problem I see based on Coughlin's statements about possibly coming back next year is he will be out to prove something so he will be more stubborn than ever. No coaching changes will take place and very little roster turnovers because he will be out to prove that his system, players and coaches can win!This will result in 4 or 5 wins next year.

Your 100% right. TC, KG have extreme egos and will never change
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