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Question for Optimus re: Will Beatty

TommytheElephant : 12/26/2013 8:02 am
I know you are pushing to draft a LT and right now I am in the same boat. You have also mentioned this as a result of Will Beatty. Since Beatty was just signed, what are the Giants real options with him at this point? Sounds like they lose a lot of space of he is cut in the next two years, no?
What do you recommend they do with Beatty? Thanks in advance.
Great question Tommy  
Optimus-NY : 12/26/2013 8:50 am : link
First let's look at Will "Beat Me's" contract, courtesy of OverTheCap.com (see the link at the bottom of this post for the source):




They would actually lose cap money if they cut him in the standard fashion next year; however, if they use make him a June 1st cut in the 2015 off-season, then that would be the earliest that they would be able to get rid of him and gain cap space. In such a scenario, the Giants would gain $3,050,000 in cap room in 2015, spreading out Dead money on the books in two year: $2,500,000 in 2014, & $5,000,000 in 2015.

The scenario outlined above would be the first and earliest exit strategy away from Beatty, and would only occur if Beatty is an absolute waste of space and turns into the Left Tackle version of Rick Ankiel (Ankiel was a baseball pitcher who suddenly began throwing wild pitches all over the place and never regained his previous form).

While a critic of Beatty's, I acknowledge that he isn't a complete waste of a roster spot---yet. I'd give him the next two years, and see what return the Giants could get on their investment. If he completely tanks, then you use the strategy above. If he's bad as opposed to embarrassingly bad, and you have a replacement on roster, then I'd keep him through 2015 after he's had a chance to compete for his job one last time.

A more reasonable approach would be to cut him after the 2015 season. As a normal cut that year, the Giants would stand to gain 4,175,000 in cap room for 2016 w/ $5 million remaining on the cap accounting books as Dead Money in one shot through the 2016 season.

Another way to do it would be to cut him after the 2015 season, not as a normal cut, but as a post June 1st cut. In that scenario, the Giants would gain $6,675,000 in cap room for the 2016 season, leaving Dead Money to be spread out over the next two years instead of just one in the amounts of $2.5 M in 2016 & another $2.5 M in 2017.

Bottom line: you don't reinforce a mistake by not seizing the opportunity to grab a quality left Tackle in the first round of the draft 4 & a half months from now. You're not married to Beatty in a cap sense for any longer than a year at minimum (probably two). If the tackle is there, and he is the best player available that fits a need, then you take him. Let Beatty compete, and prove his worth. If he fails, then you can get rid of him after the 2014 or 2015 seasons.

You can also use Pugh's versatility on the OL, just as Diehl's was used throughout his career (especially in his earlier years). You could take advantage of Pugh's versatility to your advantage, and move him to Guard for a year in case you need to get by for a season with the draft pick and Beatty playing opposite each other at the two Tackle positions. Of course, it would be better to leave Pugh alone at RT, but I'm throwing that option out there since the Giants did when they drafted him. Hopefully Pugh stays right where he is.

Beatty's going to be here on the roster for at least another year--probably two--but this does not mean that you use his cap hit as a crux to handing him a job that he never really earned in the first place due to the lack of competition that he had for his job (that's the whole "you are on this council, but we do not grant you the rank of master" argument that Star Wars geeks are familiar with regarding young emo Anakin Skywalker). He's on this roster, but it doesn't mean he has to start or be handed a starting job just because of it. This is especially dangerous since Beatty covers Eli's blind side.


William Beatty's salary cap pagecourtesy of OverTheCap.com - ( New Window )
Optimus  
Bill in UT : 12/26/2013 9:00 am : link
You need to wake up earlier. I've been on the edge of my seat for 45 minutes waiting for your answer :)
You guys are worried about our best offensive lineman...  
old timer : 12/26/2013 9:12 am : link
....when we have turnstiles at the RG, OC and LG? The center of the line is a complete disaster.

Meanwhile we have huge holes at LB, CB, and no pass rush. I find the obsession with Beatty to be one of those BBI myopic self-reinforcing echo chambers that have long ago lost any sense of perspective.

old timer  
NYBEN : 12/26/2013 9:33 am : link
I think Beatty can play a lot better than he has this season but he has been far from the best or even his best this year .The guy has got his ass kicked week end and week out. So I understand why fans are interested in finding out if he can or should be replaced. Personally I think he bounces back from what was a disastrous year for the entire O-line.
No one should like how Beatty played this season but  
Jimmy Googs : 12/26/2013 9:47 am : link
he is not going anywhere and will be starting at LT on opening day 2014.

Move onto the other 50+ areas where this team needs to improve.
If Beatty wasn't injured in some way  
Randy in CT : 12/26/2013 9:55 am : link
then we do have a problem at LT. Can he do better? No idea. If he can't then we might have to readdress that position as we maneuver around cap restrictions of cutting Beatty. As Optimus outlined.
He Is Going No Where in 2014  
Bernie : 12/26/2013 10:13 am : link
But if he is awful next year, I think he will be gone in 2015 since its effectively a push salary cap wise if he is on the team or not. And it's these kind of contracts that JR should be judged.
Beatty is someone  
mikeygiants : 12/26/2013 10:53 am : link
who could use some competition from a low priced lunch pal type of FA signing.
NYBEN  
old timer : 12/26/2013 11:00 am : link
Beatty has taken a step back this season. So has Eli, Nicks and virtually everyone on the team. When the team steps backwards, IMHO, that is a reflection of coaching.

Beatty had a couple of terrible games, but he is still our most consistent lineman. And if you focus on him, he plays well most snaps. He has been inconsistent, although he is almost never given any help.

I also noticed him limping after a play against Detroit. BTW, he was held by an OL on the safety. So, I also think he is nicked up. To be fair, everyone is hurting this time of season.

My point is that Beatty general plays better than those around him. He will NOT be cut. He probably won't be drafted over except in a BPA situation. And his cap number is reasonable for his relative talent.

Like I alluded to, we have bigger (and many other) fish to fry.
I make him recommit himself to the program…….  
Simms11 : 12/26/2013 11:03 am : link
strength and conditioning and working on fundamentals/technique in off-season. If he has another season like this, then you have to consider doing something, but I wouldn't rush to try to fimd a replacement. He needs a fire lit under his ass IMO and I we have so many other needs, especially inside Oline. There will be other OLTs available after next year in both FA and the draft.
Well,  
Doomster : 12/26/2013 11:04 am : link
You guys are worried about our best offensive lineman...
old timer : 9:12 am : link : reply
....when we have turnstiles at the RG, OC and LG? The center of the line is a complete disaster.

Meanwhile we have huge holes at LB, CB, and no pass rush. I find the obsession with Beatty to be one of those BBI myopic self-reinforcing echo chambers that have long ago lost any sense of perspective.


If Beatty is the best OLman, then we might as well can the whole front office for giving him that contract.....

Watching him last year, I could not under stand how he got such a huge contract....yes, some ratings on him didn't make him look bad, because sometimes he had help with a TE or Eli was able to side step a rusher.....The Giants can't even evaluate their own players? Instead, they gave him a Baas contract...

Next year he represents 15M in dead money....we are basically stuck with him for the next two years, before we can fiscally pull the plug....

I for one, hope it's an injury he is hiding, because you don't sign a LT to that kind of contract, with the physical mechanics he is displaying....if we can't judge talent on our own team, seeing them play week after week, how can you have confidence in a front office making decisions on free agents and draft prospects?
I may be wrong.....  
Reb8thVA : 12/26/2013 11:07 am : link
but I think you could draft a real LT and still be able to carry Beatty's contract because the new LT would be a cheaper rookie contract. You could maybe then cut Beatty in 2016 when the cap hit is less onerous. By keeping Beatty for the next two years it gives you either time to develop the new guy or a quality back up. Again I am probably wrong on this
Sorry Optimus....  
Reb8thVA : 12/26/2013 11:08 am : link
I didn't read your post in full
I think a major upgrade at LG may help Beatty  
Steve in South Jersey : 12/26/2013 11:10 am : link
he had no partner he could depend on at guard in 2013. That may be part of his problem.
Or you could just admit the team isn't simply going to cut bait  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/26/2013 11:17 am : link
on him after one bad year.

It's about as likely as the team cutting Eli after this season.

He's not going anywhere.
Beatty stinks  
Optimus-NY : 12/26/2013 11:29 am : link
I don't know what else to say. He's here for another one to two years because of his contract, but that doesn't entitle him to a starting job. Draft that blue goose tackle in round #1 in May if he's there if need, BPA, and value match up. Don't think twice about it because of Beatty. Let him sing for his supper. If a replacement is drafted in the next few months, and he shows promise, then the exit strategy away form Beatty will be simple. It'll only be one year if he is horrid, and two years if he's still inconsistent.

I never liked Beatty, and thought that his contract was a mistake due to the Giants trying to gamble one last time with the core of veterans that they had. Pat Kirwan disliked the signing, so that's an example of a guy's opinion which is actually valued regarding Beatty. I fully agree. Give me the OT from Tennessee in Round 1 if Kounadjio is gone before the Giants pick.
While no one should be entitled to a starting job  
Jimmy Googs : 12/26/2013 11:41 am : link
as they should all earn it, there are far more pressing needs than improving our LT this off-season.

If a very good LT is on the board when we draft and that is our pick then I am fine with it...so long as the Coaches figure out how to move Beatty and Pugh and that draftee around so they ALL can play on our line in 2014.

Regardless of whether he stinks now  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/26/2013 11:42 am : link
he was nowhere near this bad the previous 4 years of his career and he wasn't showing signs of decline.

He'll get his chances to pull out of this dive.
if the brass isn't sold on WB  
JonC : 12/26/2013 11:48 am : link
and LT is the prospect they really want when they're on the clock, then take him and let the players battle it out in camp.

Pro personnel typically doesn't look at prospects in a needs-based vacuum.
I cleaned up what I wrote at the top of this thread on my cap blog:  
Optimus-NY : 12/26/2013 11:57 am : link
See below.

When is the earliest that the Giants can move away from the Will Beatty contract? - December 26, 2013 - ( New Window )
Optimus  
Percy : 12/26/2013 1:12 pm : link
Thanks for bringing clarity to a very troubling situation. (It didn't really need to be cleaned up.) Steve of SJ suggests that getting first-rate LG to play next to him could help, too. That makes sense and might do wonders for Beatty. Finally your point about not letting this situation stand in the way of drafting another LT seems right, too (and maybe those available are so good they shouldn't be passed up), especially if that draftee can also play at LG.
according to pat trainia  
japanhead : 12/26/2013 1:18 pm : link
citing, i believe, pro football focus, beatty graded out as the best offensive lineman of any on the roster. if so, pretty fucking sad. but people aren't just pulling it out of thin air that beatty was the most consistent lineman this year. again, frightening.
Optimus  
old timer : 12/26/2013 1:42 pm : link
If Beatty stinks, the rest of the roster is putrid.

I mean, really, watch the games. Beatty is far, far from our biggest problem.
At what point do we look past the players and examine  
PeterS : 12/26/2013 2:15 pm : link
the coaching and/or system?

Read this startling report on Giant wash-out Matt McCants now with the Raiders, especially the last sentence in the 4th? paragraph.
McCants grades out better than any Giant - ( New Window )
We all knew Mccants had talent  
nygiants1114 : 12/26/2013 2:22 pm : link
Needed time and opp to develop. We choose to keep a hobbled Snee who barely lasted 3 games and an injured Diehl on the roster. ITS TC.....
RE: We all knew Mccants had talent  
PeterS : 12/26/2013 2:27 pm : link
In comment 11415119 nygiants1114 said:
Quote:
Needed time and opp to develop. We choose to keep a hobbled Snee who barely lasted 3 games and an injured Diehl on the roster. ITS TC.....
Not so fast my friend! MM was horrible - I used to say he should go back to the marching band. Regardless, his success is an outright indictment of our coaches' ability to develop young talent.
Get used to Beatty  
fkap : 12/26/2013 2:49 pm : link
for one year. Then get used to him again. Reese signed him to a horrendous deal. So you make use of him for two years, minimum. There is no rational plan that doesn't include him in next years lineup.

He's your starter next year. the following year, you can keep him for depth. Terrible value overall, but the way to make the most of a shitty deal. This scenario means you come up with a plan to replace him in a year.

Too early for that. you need a guard, center, guard, combo. You can't add a tackle to that list, with all the other needs we have. Roll the die with Beatty.

hope he improves. No real choice year one, a little more choice year two, can do what you want year 3.


Worst case scenario: he's on your team for 2014. Zero doubt about that. Almost positive he's the starter at LT (all scenarios say the same thing).


Pray he rebounds.
It's reasonable....  
BillKo : 12/26/2013 3:17 pm : link
to project Beatty returning to form and playing much better next season.

I even recall a post by Eric in the preseason comments on how well Beatty was playing IIRC. Then, this happendd.

I'm not expert on the OL, but I wonder how much of the interior lines trouble contributed to Beatty's poor play. I would think not much, but you always read about how cohesive the entire unit must be.

I think you have to assume our tackles are set, and go after a center and two guards in the draft/free agency.
Funny how if you say draft a G in the first no one has a problem with  
rasbutant : 12/26/2013 3:41 pm : link
it even though there isn't a Guard worth being drafted that high in the first. But suggest moving Pugh to Guard and some start throwing a fit.

What's the difference of drafting G this year or moving Pugh to G and drafting a Tackle. NONE. Expect the positive that now if someone gets hurt at Tackle there's a good replacement on the roster.

(Beatty) (Pugh) (Boothe/Baas) (Mosely/Brewer/FA) (1st Rounder blue goose)

Line is fixed, and only costed you a 1st rounder and re-signing Boothe.
Pugh has established himself at RT...  
PeterS : 12/26/2013 4:08 pm : link
why make 2 changes when you can make 1. The biggest problem is that the entire offensive staff with the exception of Jerald Ingram must be shown the door.
PeterS - Do you want TEs coach Mike Pope gone too?  
Optimus-NY : 12/26/2013 4:26 pm : link
?
Beatty gets plowed by bullrushes all the time  
Greg from LI : 12/26/2013 4:31 pm : link
And that has nothing to do with the quality of the interior linemen. He may not be the worst of the lot, but he's pretty damned bad and he makes a shitload of money.
Thank you Greg  
Optimus-NY : 12/26/2013 4:33 pm : link
There actually is some common sense on this message board after all.
Looks like Orakpo is hurting this week  
Jimmy Googs : 12/26/2013 5:00 pm : link
so Beatty's confidence might be on the rise :)
RE: Pugh has established himself at RT...  
rasbutant : 12/26/2013 5:01 pm : link
In comment 11415296 PeterS said:
Quote:
why make 2 changes when you can make 1. The biggest problem is that the entire offensive staff with the exception of Jerald Ingram must be shown the door.


Pugh has done just fine at RT, and I'm sure he will do the same at G. In fact I think he will do better there then Richardson or Jackson.

I'm not saying to force the pick to be OT, it's just this year happens to be strong at the position and the value matches where the Giants will be selecting.
Fully expect Beatty and Pugh to be the bookends next season  
JonC : 12/26/2013 5:01 pm : link
unless they draft a tackle in the first round. If that happens, then I'd expect them to look at kicking Pugh over to LG and giving a youngster already on the roster a shot at RG. Baas probably sticks another season, but we'll know for sure when UFA open season fires up.
Zack Martin  
rasbutant : 12/26/2013 6:08 pm : link
might be there in the 2nd round, he is being compared to Pugh. Everyone wants to move him to guard be but he gets the job done at Tackle.
Pugh  
JonC : 12/26/2013 6:09 pm : link
I have no issue keeping a proven tackle at tackle, they're harder to find and develop.

But, if they draft a tackle high it's very likely Pugh gets a look at LG.
Get Guards and centers  
PatersonPlank : 12/26/2013 6:41 pm : link
The Tackles will look much better. The OL is a unit
Beatty is the LT regardless because he is uncuttable  
LauderdaleMatty : 12/26/2013 6:51 pm : link
Due to his contract. Saying he's the best OL is horse shot. Why? Not based up this year. Pugh may be that. Mainly because other than this year Beatty had only about 20 starts. If Beatty bounces back and is even average I will be happy and seriously surprised bit any player regressing as badly as he has is a huge red flag

Teams watch film of every player and IMO now that teams have him and his tendencies down they know how to attack him. He's had 5 years to get stronger and more technical. How many more years does he need to get stronger? Ansah who is giving up 50-60 pounds bull rushed him and for a sack. That's pathetic.

Are we stuck with him probably, but this crap that he's the best OL or he's not major issue has got to stop. When you have that much cap $$$ allocated to a guy who has never proven shit it's a borderline disaster.

And comparing hIm to a guy who as two Super Bowl MVPs and was the main reason for even getting to the Super Bowl after getting a beating like few others I have ever seen in The San Fran game is just fucking moronic. Yeah. Let's give a guy who has never even made it to a lame ass pro bowl a second chance but bring up Eli as an example as why people should stop thinking about bringing in a top tier replacement. Seriously?

The Giants were supposedly hot to trot for the kid out of Colorado  
Optimus-NY : 12/26/2013 7:07 pm : link
who the Pats drafted in 2011 with the 17th pick in the first round (LOT Nate Solder), just 2 spots ahead of the Giants who had the 19th pick. That was only 2 years after the picked Beatty in round 2. It's not the same situation, but I can definitely see them placing a high grade in a player who plays OT in this year's draft again, especially since it's a strength of this upcoming draft.

You don't run away form that just because you have a mediocre player signed to play the position. It's dangerous to think that way when it comes to building a team, especially building a team through the draft. People also need to remember that OTs are expensive, especially OLTs. The way to acquire them is via the draft, not through FA.
I don't know how these things have worked out  
Bill in UT : 12/26/2013 7:12 pm : link
historically, but I would think you'd like to get backups with versatility but you'd want your starters in their best positions
I think that when we get a C and another OG  
yatqb : 12/26/2013 7:40 pm : link
the line, including Beatty, will perform a lot better. But I wouldn't hesitate to draft a top OT if he was the best player available in Rd. 1. Pugh has the flexibility to play LT or OG, and I could also see Beatty swinging back to RT if Pugh or the rookie beat him out. At RT he would have the help of a TE chipping on the LDE whenever needed. That would certainly prevent some of the speed rushes that have beaten Beatty.

Get me Alex Mack and a guard like Asamoah and we'll be fine.
I'm not opposed to them taking a LT  
Torn Tendon : 12/26/2013 7:44 pm : link
could also look at it as an investment. Perhaps trade Beatty if the rookie LT beats him out or puts on a good enough showing.
Beatty has the measureables...  
Milton : 12/26/2013 7:55 pm : link
...and the athletic ability to play left guard or right tackle. The Giants have worked him mainly at left tackle because that's what you do when you draft a prototypical left tackle in the second round and your current starter is Dave Diehl. But that doesn't mean he can't succeed elsewhere along the line. And while Pugh may be a solid right tackle, it could turn out that he's a Pro Bowl center. At this point, we have no way of telling, but the coaches sure do.

p.s.-- In 1988 the Giants drafted Eric Moore early in round one and Jumbo Elliot early in round two with the belief that Moore would be their left tackle of the future and Elliot would be their right tackle of the future. What happened? Elliot wound up at left tackle and Moore at left guard for most of their careers.
This feels like a BPA year  
AnnapolisMike : 12/26/2013 10:25 pm : link
As shakey as Beatty has been, he probably part of the solution going forward. And with his cap hit you all should be saying a prayer that is the case.
Beatty is part of the solution?  
Optimus-NY : 12/27/2013 7:03 pm : link
lol. Based on what exactly? Getting beaten like a drum time after time and then saying it was because he was trying to justify the contract he signed by adjusting his technique? Give me a break. In your 5th year, that kind of shit shouldn't be happening.
shouldn't figuring out technique  
fkap : 12/27/2013 7:28 pm : link
in year 5 also reflect poorly on the OL coach?
Problem I have with Optimus approach is the insistence that Pugh move  
Great White Ghost : 12/28/2013 6:50 pm : link
To guard. It's in almost every scenario he presents,-Move Pugh.Why?

Where is it some sort of given that Pugh is so versatile he could, or should, play guard?Based on what? He's fine at RT.Find a guard, not a RT.Don't get the obsession with getting a new RT and moving pugh.

As for Pope, well, the case can be made he is living off his reputation. He hasn't done shit with Robinson or Donnell, he's had them both a couple of years,Myers still can't block, and is Pascoe significantly different than what he was 3 years ago?

Injuries, whatever, if you went off the past 3 years alone, other than Bennett ( who improved as much because he had the chance and because of Manning)you wouldn't say this is a great TE coach.Maybe it's a bad crop, I dunno, but Pope hasn't been anything to rave about the past few years.People say TC is old. So is Pope. Don't get me wrong, I'm not crying for his head, but if we cleaned house and he went out with the trash I wouldn't be too upset at this point.
Beatty's decline this year was so dramatic, he's either A:  
Damon : 12/29/2013 12:21 am : link
On cruise control after getting paid, or B nursing an injury all year which turned him into a bum. I doubt it's the latter because you don't roll out there every week hurt when your team is in the basement... And he sucked the most during the 0-6 stretch... And was barely slightly better thereafter.
Beatty has the physical skills to get the job done...  
buljos : 12/29/2013 10:44 am : link
but too often his head apparently isn't in it. I'm actually ok with occasionally getting beat physically by a top shelf DE, as it happens to the best in the game. But when a LT has help to the outside, yet he allows his man to beat him inside thereby defeating two blockers, that's just not being mentally in the game. That play, as pointed out during the sack replay, was not an aberration. Competition might inspire Beatty to elevate his game, but I don't see that competition on the current roster.
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