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Tiki on Eli

Eric from BBI : Admin : 12/26/2013 2:16 pm
"He's done great things, but he doesn’t do it consistently,” Barber said on WFAN (Read more at CBS Local › ). "What makes someone great in the history, in the annals of an organization or a league? It’s consistency.

"The problem with Eli, as of late, I think, is there’s something physically off. There’s definitely a confidence issue. And that has nothing to do with him. It has everything to do with those five guys — and really it’s been eight over the course of this year — in front of him that just can’t get it done. He’s constantly throwing off his back foot. I feel like he’s pressing sometimes to make some throws and they end up sailing on him

"It’s because of confidence and I think because he’s gotten the crap beat out of him.”
If this was Joe Smith  
dep026 : 12/26/2013 2:19 pm : link
from no where land, no one one would care or disagree.

And what Tiki is saying is not wrong, it's obviously a nice cheap shot he is taking at him. Tiki is a such an ass, he just cannot help himself anymore.
whats the cheap shot?  
Blue Baller : 12/26/2013 2:20 pm : link
?
he's not wrong, but it's a cheap shot?  
Greg from LI : 12/26/2013 2:21 pm : link
That doesn't make any sense.
RE: whats the cheap shot?  
dep026 : 12/26/2013 2:23 pm : link
In comment 11415114 Blue Baller said:
Quote:
?


The first part to me is the cheap shot. Explaining what's going on this year, I agree with him. Lets be honest, when Tiki has a chance to shoto down Eli, he does it. Its not outrageous, it is not low balling....

But he always gets a line or two in about something that he does wrong.
isn't that  
Blue Baller : 12/26/2013 2:23 pm : link
his job?
RE: isn't that  
dep026 : 12/26/2013 2:27 pm : link
In comment 11415122 Blue Baller said:
Quote:
his job?


I am not going to get into the Tiki vs. Eli thing, because right now it just bores me.

To say Eli is not consistent is the furthest thing from the truth. In his 10 years, he always makes head scratching decisions. He has always thrown bad INTs. He has awlays made big throws, and clutch plays.

To me, he has always been the one consistent Giant, since you know what or how he was going to play. Obviously, this year has been bad and out of the norm. But if you look at his stats.... road/home, night/day, etc.... he always has been consistent with how he plays.

And thats what he needs to report, since it is "his job."
the middle part, about protection and trying to do too much  
odunde : 12/26/2013 2:27 pm : link
make sense to me. Tiki does seem to contradict himself a little bit, but is otherwise fine here, i think.

Some other qbs with really bad lines have been more successful than Eli has this year, but he is just not mobile enough to do much when the line has so many problems. That doesn't fully excuse or exonerate Eli, but I don't think his issue is a confidence one. He is still TRYING to make all the throws that he would make in other years, he is just missing on these throws a lot more.
what is he supposed to say?  
Greg from LI : 12/26/2013 2:28 pm : link
"Eli's the awesomest!!!"
Sounds about right  
bignygfan : 12/26/2013 2:30 pm : link
to me. Can't argue with any of this.
Just say the 2nd part....  
dep026 : 12/26/2013 2:31 pm : link
because I am sure that is what the question was about...talking about Eli's season. And if he just said that, its no biggie.

But for him to make the first part of the statement just continues to show his animosity and jealousy towards Eli. Because lets be honest, it kills Tiki that Eli will go down as a better player and a better Giant than he will.
Didn't Tiki  
NYBEN : 12/26/2013 2:32 pm : link
say that Eli was better than Peyton before the season started (and was laughed at)? So I disagree that he is always looking to take shots at Eli...he's just another guy with an opinion.
I agree with everything he said  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 12/26/2013 2:36 pm : link
.
I don't see anything wrong with those comments  
mfsd : 12/26/2013 2:37 pm : link
and I'm one of retirement-Tiki's harshest critics

Eli has been great, but inconsistent for much of his career, and this year it's no stretch to say he's been rattled a bit playing behind a dogshit offensive line
See  
dep026 : 12/26/2013 2:38 pm : link
IMO, Eli has been consistent with his play (take away this year, of course.). I guess its just how you look at it.
To say Eli is inconstant  
Blue Baller : 12/26/2013 2:41 pm : link
is not the furthest thing from the truth

Unless your point is that he is consistent in his inconsistency

I don't think there's a QB in this league  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 12/26/2013 2:41 pm : link
who has a greater difference between his ceiling and floor than Eli.

Consistency is important and Eli has always been streaky. His hot streaks tend to be epic but far too often he's cold.
Except for the 2 Super Bowl Years  
snumber6 : 12/26/2013 2:42 pm : link
He's never won an NFC Championship game ...
I think that's Tiki's point ...
Giants couldn't get a second round draft pick  
xman : 12/26/2013 2:43 pm : link
for Eli. That is how far he has fallen. He is not a good QB. Was he yes.

I remember Giant fans beating the pavement for Kerry Collins. He was a stiff but few would let go of the Giant QB even when the rookie Eli arrived. Fans are loyal like TC is , whether the player is good or not just as long as the player played well at one time
Nothing wrong with what he said  
ZogZerg : 12/26/2013 2:43 pm : link
He is absolutely correct.
Tiki Barber was a better RB than Eli Manning is a QB  
Greg from LI : 12/26/2013 2:47 pm : link
And anyone who says differently speaks only from emotion.
xman, Still hitting the Christmas punch?  
TheMick7 : 12/26/2013 2:47 pm : link
Couldn't get a second round pick?...wow lol!
RE: Tiki Barber was a better RB than Eli Manning is a QB  
dep026 : 12/26/2013 2:51 pm : link
In comment 11415159 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
And anyone who says differently speaks only from emotion.


bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Coming from a Virginia grad..... Where did Tiki go again?
Agree with Greg here.  
RDJR : 12/26/2013 2:53 pm : link
Tiki Barber was a better football player than Eli Manning.
RE: Tiki Barber was a better RB than Eli Manning is a QB  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 12/26/2013 2:54 pm : link
In comment 11415159 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
And anyone who says differently speaks only from emotion.


Tiki was a Top 3 RB in the league once he figured out the fumbling issue and peaked late. Tomlinson and Alexander were the other 2 guys in the mix. I would actually take Tiki over Alexander, I think Alexander had a dominant OL and Tiki was the more versatile player. Tiki vs. Tomlinson is tougher, as much as I like Tiki I think I'd go Tomlinson. Peak LdT was arguably the most complete RB ever.

Eli has only been a Top 5 QB once in his career, in 2011. Usually he is somewhere in that 8-13 range. This year he has been outside the Top 25.

So I agree that Tiki was a better RB than Eli was a QB.

But Eli's 2011 trumps any Tiki season by a mile. Eli's 2011 is clutchest QB season in NFL history. I'd go so far as to say that Eli's 2011 is arguably the best non-LT season in Giants history based on his importance to the team. His playoff run was unreal and he put the team on his back that year and carried them to the promised land. And of course 2007 was an amazing playoff run.

2011 Eli was only 2 years ago. I really hope he can get back to that level.
dep  
GMANinDC : 12/26/2013 2:56 pm : link
you're really reaching on this one..no cheap shot at all..What he said is what every analyst would say..And it would be the truth..
Tomlinson and Faulk were the only better contemporary RBs  
Greg from LI : 12/26/2013 2:58 pm : link
QB is a much more important position than RB. A quarterback can carry a team to a title as Eli did in 2011, while a running back cannot. Still, the point remains - Tiki was better compared to his peers than Eli is compared to his.
RE: dep  
dep026 : 12/26/2013 2:59 pm : link
In comment 11415176 GMANinDC said:
Quote:
you're really reaching on this one..no cheap shot at all..What he said is what every analyst would say..And it would be the truth..


I feel the first part was a cheap shot. But I did agree with him on the 2nd part.

And I am taking Eli Manning 100x out of 100x from Tiki Barber. The QB position is far more important than the RB position. RBs are a dime a dozen.
Ill take Edge James  
dep026 : 12/26/2013 3:01 pm : link
over Tiki.

So to sum up:  
Randy in CT : 12/26/2013 3:04 pm : link
Eli isn't consistent.
But something is wrong--probably physical.
But it all starts up front--those guys suck.

well, that nails it down?
you go right ahead and do that  
Greg from LI : 12/26/2013 3:05 pm : link
I'll take the guy who produced without superstars at QB and WR.
dep  
Bill in UT : 12/26/2013 3:06 pm : link
Your support of Eli for being consistent in his inconsistency is breathtaking. I'd be scared to see how your room is decorated,lol
RE: you go right ahead and do that  
dep026 : 12/26/2013 3:09 pm : link
In comment 11415201 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
I'll take the guy who produced without superstars at QB and WR.


Now I am not going to disagree he wasnt a top 5 of the 2000s, because he was. But that statement is a little off the wall. Are you saying you would take Tiki over say a guy like, Emmitt Smith?
Considering I think Emmitt Smith is the most overrated player in  
Greg from LI : 12/26/2013 3:13 pm : link
NFL history, yes, I would. Not looking to argue over Emmitt again, but virtually any decent back could have looked like an All-Pro behind that line.
RE: dep  
dep026 : 12/26/2013 3:14 pm : link
In comment 11415202 Bill in UT said:
Quote:
Your support of Eli for being consistent in his inconsistency is breathtaking. I'd be scared to see how your room is decorated,lol


Umm, ok.

Throughout his career he has been between 58-62% completion percentage, 23-27 TDs, high number of INTs, has been around 4,000 yards passing the last 5 years. He has been consistent with his play.

75-43 record at home
76-41 record at home

TDs by month:
Sept - 53
Oct - 57
Nov - 53
Dec - 58

His play from year to year is as consistent as it gets. Two huge anamolies. 2011 and 2013.
I am not any kind of expert  
81_Great_Dane : 12/26/2013 3:14 pm : link
but Eli looks to me like something's physically wrong with him -- and it's obvious that the O-line hasn't gotten it done for him all year. So I don't see the problem with any of that.

The Giants and the Mannings tend to play this stuff close to the vest so we may never know if he's hiding an injury, but to me it appears his throws lack zip and accuracy. Could be from throwing off his back foot due to pressure. Could be bad mechanics. Could be an injury.
RE: Considering I think Emmitt Smith is the most overrated player in  
dep026 : 12/26/2013 3:16 pm : link
In comment 11415211 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
NFL history, yes, I would. Not looking to argue over Emmitt again, but virtually any decent back could have looked like an All-Pro behind that line.


I do agree with you that he is overrated and I would take a bunch of backs before him that most people wouldnt, I still think he is better than Tiki too. I also find Troy Aikman to be incredibly overrated.

0 - 3500 yard seasons
1 - 20 TD season

first ballot hall of famer.... huh?
Tiki put up comparable numbers behind far worse lines  
Greg from LI : 12/26/2013 3:18 pm : link
And yeah, Aikman going first ballot was silly.
This is from a post earlier in the year  
Blue Baller : 12/26/2013 3:21 pm : link
I pulled the passer rating for a bunch of QBs for the past three seasons and ran the standard deviation of of the data set, her are the results

Looking at this data, Eli is tied with Matty Ice and Romo for largest standard deviation of passer rating as a percent of average passer rating. But the differences are not that great. (in any of you stat heads know a better approach to this let me know)

Obviously the passer rating has its own flaws, and this is not a definitive answer to the question but I thought it was interesting to look at the data

Data is from 2010-2012

QB........Avg Rating........Std Dev....Std Dev/Avg
Rodgers.....108.31...........25.19.........23%
Manning.....88.29............24.03.........27%
Brady......107.48............22.78.........21%
Ryan........96.87............25.72.........27%
Big Ben.....95.58............23.28.........24%
Brees......100.62............24.05.........24%
Romo........98.18............26.74.........27%
Sanchez.....75.99............27.22.........26%
Tiki's historical impact  
dep026 : 12/26/2013 3:22 pm : link
will be remembered more like Terrell Davis' since he had 5 monster seasons and then a lot of meh. 2000 he was good but they split carries with you know who.....

2001 was too much of an injury year/split carry year. Only 160 some carries.
Tiki  
CapeGman : 12/26/2013 3:34 pm : link
couldn't carry Mannings Jock Strap!

Funny how the Giants gelled so well after he left and won a SB.

Yeah Tiki put up big numbers but he never had the heart of a champion and he was not a good teammate IMHO.
Dep how can you say that Eli has been consistent?  
EricJ (formerly Tyleraimee) : 12/26/2013 3:42 pm : link
if you say he has been consistently inconsistent then I would agree with that. Most of his seasons have been sub par. Clutch passes? Absolutely! but not ever game my friend. On occasion.

He has led the NFL in interceptions three out of his ten years as a pro. This year, he has more INTs than he has great passes. He has had more seasons where his accuracy has been a problem.

Here is where he is consistent and where it is a huge asset. His demeanor and calmness. You get the same Eli week after week as far as that is concerned.
Tiki had an unusual career for an RB  
Greg from LI : 12/26/2013 3:51 pm : link
Early on he was pigeonholed as a Meggett-like third down back (something that doesn't really exist anymore), and he was slowed by injuries. Later on, they kept splitting carries with Dayne for two seasons even though Tiki was much more productive. And, of course, the fumbling hurt him.
RE: If this was Joe Smith  
chris r : 12/26/2013 3:52 pm : link
In comment 11415113 dep026 said:
Quote:
from no where land, no one one would care or disagree.

And what Tiki is saying is not wrong, it's obviously a nice cheap shot he is taking at him. Tiki is a such an ass, he just cannot help himself anymore.


Its only a cheap shot for you because he's talking about Eli.
RE: RE: If this was Joe Smith  
dep026 : 12/26/2013 3:55 pm : link
In comment 11415257 chris r said:
Quote:
In comment 11415113 dep026 said:


Quote:


from no where land, no one one would care or disagree.

And what Tiki is saying is not wrong, it's obviously a nice cheap shot he is taking at him. Tiki is a such an ass, he just cannot help himself anymore.



Its only a cheap shot for you because he's talking about Eli.


Great work radar. You're definitely the most consistent thing here. Sad thing is it just isn't much to write home about.
Tiki's comments are on the money except for  
Jimmy Googs : 12/26/2013 3:58 pm : link
the remark about Eli "getting the crap beat out of him".

Eli may be getting pressured, sacked, and frustrated but he is not getting the crap beat out of him. He is actually good at knowing when the big hit is coming and avoids the blow or just goes down.

Must be the SF playoff game that haunts him...
RE: Ill take Edge James  
Toth029 : 12/26/2013 4:23 pm : link
In comment 11415189 dep026 said:
Quote:
over Tiki.
Who cares? Edge did what, that made him so much more impressive over Tiki?

I get Tiki's attitude post-career has been douchey, but he was a fantastic player. Why try to knock what he accomplished with Eli and this team in those final three years of his career?

What Tiki said in the OP isn't wrong, although he misses something. Greats don't only play consistent, they need to play big in big games. Is Matt Ryan or Tony Romo, who have great regular season stats, thought of greater than Manning? I don't think so.
Tiki Is Right  
Jeffrey : 12/26/2013 4:56 pm : link
and irrelevant. Threw away an opportunity to be sports/news icon in New York. Now, no one cares what he thinks.
Regardless of the reasons  
silverfox : 12/26/2013 5:00 pm : link
The fact remains that Eli is killing this team monitarily and with his play on the field this season.
it's crazy  
PaulBlakeTSU : 12/26/2013 5:07 pm : link
that some people still find reasons to bash Tiki for a comment that says ""The problem with Eli, as of late, I think, is ... And that has nothing to do with him."

TOTH  
OldPolack : 12/26/2013 5:12 pm : link
your so wrong with your comments about GREAT players.
LOOK at BROWN and GIFFORD.
GIFF made all pro at 3 different positions DB, RB and WR.
BROWN had a crappy QB and still could not be stopped.
SANDERS retired when he probably had 3 more years in him.
ONLY injuries stopped GALE and OJ.
Tiki is taking a shot  
montyataix : 12/26/2013 5:26 pm : link
When you read Tiki's opening remarks he is clearly saying that Eli doesn't deserve to be considered great because he lacks consistency and you have to be consistent to be regarded as great. Then he switches and gives Eli an excuse for his lack of consistency putting the blame on the five guys in front of him. If there is a reason for Eli's inconsistency then he shouldn't be faulted but Tiki wants to downgrade him so he starts by saying Eli personally lacks a necessary ingredient for greatness.
I think Eli's problem is  
SHO'NUFF : 12/26/2013 5:53 pm : link
TOO MUCH confidence...

in his arm and in his receivers to make the play.
I think Eli's problem is he doiesn't give a shit. By that I mean  
Blue21 : 12/26/2013 6:06 pm : link
he's throwing the damn ball and his receivers better make a play. If he screws up or they screw up then the hell with it. Take a snap and do it again interceptions be damned.He's just way to careless. Always has been. Sometime is works sometimes it doesn't. He's Brett Favre like.
I disagree with the idea that consistency defines greatness  
Go Terps : 12/26/2013 6:10 pm : link
The Atlanta Braves were consistent. Not great.

Eli has been more consistent than any QB in the past 7 years in winning titles. That's what is important to me. I don't give a shit about stats being consistent. Those don't get framed and put on the wall.
Dep....  
LawrenceTaylor56 : 12/26/2013 6:21 pm : link
Lol
Tiki or not  
mdc1 : 12/26/2013 6:26 pm : link
the truth hurts and we are paying him lots of money to throw picks and lose football games.
Tiki's an ass  
PatersonPlank : 12/26/2013 6:36 pm : link
Once again BBI shows its on the fringes by defending this self centered, conceited jerk. Everything he says is for his own benefit.
98% of his comments are right on the money.  
Shockeyisthebest80 : 12/26/2013 6:41 pm : link
The only thing anyone should be able to quibble with is whether Eli's accomplishments make him "great" already. I think they do. I completely agree that he's gotten the crap beaten out of him behind one of the 2 worst o-lines in the sport. That's the main issue, not the QB.
Dep has jumped the shark...  
Blue Meanie : 12/26/2013 6:44 pm : link
...
Seriously ?  
shabu : 12/26/2013 6:46 pm : link
Consistently inconsistent! NO PICK ON MY ELi!
When 8 out of every 10 pass plays you are hit/sacked/  
PatersonPlank : 12/26/2013 7:01 pm : link
or at a minimum under heavy pressure up the middle, then the other 2 you are looking for it. So I don't buy the fact that Eli should be the old Eli on those 2 tries out of the 10. Fix the interior of the line and he will be back. There isn't a QB in the league who could succeed in back of this line.
What is consistent is the dropped passes and wrong routes by  
carpoon : 12/26/2013 7:40 pm : link
his receivers, which hasn't been mentioned much in this thread. Of course, Eli is not without blame. He also has to overcome very predictable play-calling.
Meh  
dbrny : 12/26/2013 8:18 pm : link
"He's done great things, but he doesn’t do it consistently,” Barber said on WFAN (Read more at CBS Local › ). "What makes someone great in the history, in the annals of an organization or a league? It’s consistency.

The consistency angle is overrated, because it's easy fodder for talking heads. The "annals of history" are laced with people that had up and down games, up and down years. What matters are wins, championships, big games, and big memories.

Nice stats are just table stakes.


xmen  
dbrny : 12/26/2013 8:23 pm : link
is your comment based on fact, or speculation?
Here is a great example of how little merit Tiki's words have  
dbrny : 12/26/2013 8:24 pm : link
.
link - ( New Window )
Here we go, this thread has it all  
Sonic Youth : 12/26/2013 8:25 pm : link
Idiotic TIki bashing, people who blame everything on Eli even though there is garbage around him, and people being as equally ridiculous by totally absolving him.

What if everyone is partially right in this?


Also, I agree that Tiki was a better RB than Eli was. That isn't a knock on Eli, Tiki was legitimately one of the top 2 RBs in the league, maybe even the best in 05.
for those who cant read  
dep026 : 12/26/2013 8:35 pm : link
Eli from year to year is nothing but consistent. Except for 2011/2013. Game to game is different. But his completion percentage, yards, and TD/int ratio is just about the same.

I don't know why people can't see this.
it's not about stats, it's about performance  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 12/26/2013 8:36 pm : link
stats aren't foolproof but they reflect performance. My problem with Eli this year is about his performance. And his performance has been inconsistent over the years.

I think one problem Eli has always had is that when he stinks, he tends to throw the ball high. It always leads to stretches of play with high turnovers (this season being the worst). A guy like McNabb was just as inconsistent with his accuracy as Eli, but when he missed he missed short. Tom Brady is the same way, he's more accurate than McNabb or Eli but when he is off he tends to bounce it short. Eli airmails it and that's always hurt him.
Osi  
dbrny : 12/26/2013 8:44 pm : link
Interesting. I don't recall a high percentage of his misses this year being the high ball variety. They have been in the past.
Eli  
AcidTest : 12/26/2013 8:50 pm : link
has been very bad. What else can you say after twenty-six INTs, including five in one game? But the OL has been worse. What else can you say when Eli has been sacked and hit so often, more frequently I think than in any other year? Pugh the rookie is the only one worth starting.

Whether Eli can regain his previous form is unknown. It isn't a given. He's closing in on thirty-three. But a better OL certainly gives him a chance, especially considering his past successes. You saw a slight glimmer of that this past weekend on a few throws, especially that fastball he threw into a very tight window for the TD to JJ.

My guess is that the Giants will restructure/extend Eli. I wouldn't. I'd simply eat his cap number for next season, and evaluate the situation again at that time.

As far as the Eli/Tiki debate, I wouldn't take Tiki over Eli. And I am a UVA grad.
It's his job? Is Barber even employed?  
baadbill : 12/26/2013 9:06 pm : link
I never seem to see him on TV or hear him hosting any radio.
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