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Harsh (and true) analysis of Giants drafts

oldutican : 12/26/2013 8:47 pm
Stapleton.
NNJ.com - ( New Window )
The truth  
Geeman : 12/26/2013 9:01 pm : link
can often times be harsh. But then again so have the Giants play been this season.
...  
Boyle : 12/26/2013 9:04 pm : link
Just when i thought I wiped the memory on Clint Sintim out of my head lol.

Clear example of a bad pick. He didn't even fit a 4-3 defense but we draft him anyway.

That 2009 Draft was terrible, minus Nicks.
The in Reese I Trust crowd have  
LauderdaleMatty : 12/26/2013 9:13 pm : link
Been rather quiet for a reason. He's fucked up the draft a lot. He's more at fault than anyone else for this year
Meaningless  
CT Charlie : 12/26/2013 9:20 pm : link
"analysis" without league-wide stats. Would you really expect the typical 7th round pick to be in the league 6 years after the draft? There were over 180 guys chosen ahead of him... And a couple of hundred more every year.
Martellus Bennett  
Samiam : 12/26/2013 9:55 pm : link
If Ballard doesnt get hurt, Martellus Bennett probably doesnt come here. Its not all about the draft.
Excellent article.  
Red Dog : 12/26/2013 11:32 pm : link
It IS all about the draft.

The draft is the primary source of high quality players for any team in the NFL. Good teams draft well and fill in around the edges with free agents, both vet and rookie. Bad teams draft badly and attempt to overcompensate with free agents. The GIANTS got away with that for a while until free agent defections, age, and injuries caught up with their veteran core.

The GIANTS are a bad team in large part because they have drafted badly since Reese's landmark 2007 draft.
Red Dog. Correct  
LauderdaleMatty : 12/26/2013 11:47 pm : link
It's one of the reasons the cap is so tight. When you need to sign a Jenkins or a Baas because of missed picks or passing on a guy like Unger for Sintim you kill yourself
Reese is not solely responsible for the draft  
Blue Blood : 12/27/2013 12:09 am : link
He isnt the only one in the room.. What I believe has hurt the Giants is that Reese is no longer the director of scouting. When he was in that position with EA at the helm the Giants drafts were better.. The scouting I believe is as much if not more of an issue than Reese himself.
RE: Reese is not solely responsible for the draft  
LauderdaleMatty : 12/27/2013 12:26 am : link
In comment 11415734 Blue Blood said:
Quote:
He isnt the only one in the room.. What I believe has hurt the Giants is that Reese is no longer the director of scouting. When he was in that position with EA at the helm the Giants drafts were better.. The scouting I believe is as much if not more of an issue than Reese himself.


Bullshit. He's the GM. Ross and the scouts work for him and it's his final say on every draft pick. It's starting to get annoying. He's the guy in charge. Who the fuck else is ultimately responsible I year after year the. Drafts suck. It's not the total lack of success in later rounds either. No way the scouts talked him into guys like Beckum Sintim, Austin etc if he wasn't sold. He's a career scout. Sure he takes input but of he is toy relying on his scouts the. He should be fired for that.
Sintim is the head scratcher...  
SHO'NUFF : 12/27/2013 12:50 am : link
I think it was one of the few times BBI was in complete agreement about a bad pick...even leading up to the draft when word leaked out about TC's infatuation with Sintim, people were up in arms. I imagine TC hasn't sent Al Groh any Christmas cards, since that day.
Sorry, but this "staggering" figure isn't staggering.  
81_Great_Dane : 12/27/2013 2:24 am : link
Quote:
A staggering 19 of those former Giants draft picks currently are not in the league.
Sorry, but without some context on best, worst and average in the league, this is meaningless.
lazy article  
bc4life : 12/27/2013 3:53 am : link
cannot consider draft effectiveness without looking at all the teams and control for draft order.
Good article  
Steve in South Jersey : 12/27/2013 6:19 am : link
Would love to see an article comparing the Giants last 5 years of drafting verses their NFC East rivals.
Jerry's responsible for the scouting department.  
Ira : 12/27/2013 6:29 am : link
If changes need to made, he needs to make them. I do like last years draft. I think the first three picks will be starters. Cox will be a useful backup. I'm not sure about Cooper Taylor. But three starters and a useful backup is a good draft.
Yet another article  
mattnyg05 : 12/27/2013 6:38 am : link
where we have no idea what the percentages are for the rest of the league in comparison. Would love to see an accurate "hits and misses" for the rest of the teams in the NFL during that same span. We're not as bad as you might think.
"analysis" without league-wide stats  
bob_in_ec : 12/27/2013 6:55 am : link
I agree with CT Charlie and others that any measure of success or failure in the draft needs to be compared with the league wide results of all of the NFL teams. Is there any web site that tracks how well teams do in the draft? How do you measure a draft choice? How well does Mel Kiper (Or other talking heads) do in his rankings of players/positions through out the years?
Reese is a bigger part of the problem than many care to admit  
Tom from LI : 12/27/2013 7:07 am : link
Reese has failed to restock the shelves in my opinion. Now you are starting to see the affects of that.

picking in the top 15 means nothing.. we will take the guy with the best back handspring to back flip ratio available.


Someone needs to apply sabremetrics  
RobCarpenter : 12/27/2013 7:50 am : link
To the NFL draft. It's probably been done and I'm too lazy to search on it.

There must be some way to objectively rank teams' drafts.
I agree - lazy article  
gersh : 12/27/2013 8:39 am : link
Not only comparing to other teams success rates but other aspects such as, Pro Bowler and Starters from the draft?
Also, guys who get hurt unrelated to medical red flags is just bad luck (Chad Jones) and Stapleton mentions Goff.
Goff was a 5th round pick who would have been our starting MIKE but tore his ACL.
Then the Redskins signed him and he tore the same ACL.
Lazy analysis

.....  
gersh : 12/27/2013 8:41 am : link
OK, I sort of owe Art an apology, I re-read.

Their college scouting has left a lot to be desired, and those failures have been the result of mistakes, philosophical differences or just bad luck in terms of injuries (Clint Sintim, Jonathan Goff, Chad Jones). - See more at: http://www.northjersey.com/sports/237271121_NFL__Giants__scouts_strikng_out.html?page=all#sthash.xbAgVarN.dpuf
The people who want more statistical  
LauderdaleMatty : 12/27/2013 8:45 am : link
Analysis will mostly alibi for Reese. You all ready saw it on Thai thread. He's not responsible because he has to rely on his scouts. Oh like every other GM in the NFL?

He passed on Unger to draft Sintim. He took Austin. He's take 7 recievers in years in the first 3 rounds and two OL. His best WR pick ever tanked last season out of those 7 picks and only 2 will be on the team next year.

Stats are fine but if people will make excuses regardless of them. Reese has fucked up in the draft a lot.
Drafts  
stretch234 : 12/27/2013 8:45 am : link
I have already done this with Green bay and Baltimore on 1st, 2nd 3rd 4th & 5th round picks. Reese has hit on more 1st & 2nd and less 3rd. 4th & 5th are similar. Reese's 3rd round picks have not been as productive.

Here are some others:

New England:
2004 - Wilfork(1) Watson(1) M. Hill(2), G. Scott(3), D.
Reid(3) C. Cobbs(4)P. Sam(5)
2005 - Maknins(1)E. Hobbs(2) N. Kazcur(3)J. Sanders(4)R.
Claridge(5)
2006 - L. maroney(1)C. jackson(2), D. Thomas(3), G. Mills(4)
S. Gostkowski(5)R. O'Callaghan(5)
2007 - B. Merriwether(1)K. Brown(4) C. Oldenburg(5)
2008 - J. Mayo(1)t. Wheatley(2) S. Crable(3) K.
O'Connell(3) J.Wilhite(4) M. Slater(5)
2009 - P. Chung(2)S. Vollmer(2) R. Brace(2) D. Butler(2)
B Tate(3) T. mcKenzie(3) R. Ornberger(4)G. Bussey(5)
2010 - D. McOurty(1) R. Gronkowski(2) J. Cunningham(2) T.
Price(3) A. Hernandez(4) Z. Mesko(5)
2011 - N. Solder(1) Ras I Dowling(2) S. Vereen(2) R.
Mallett(3) M. Cannon(5) L. Smith(5)
2012 - C. Jones(1) D. Hightower(1) T. Wilson(2) J. Bequette(3)

Pittsburgh:

07 - Timmons(1) Woodley(2) Spaeth(3) Sepulveda(4) McBean(4)
Stephenson(5) Gay (5)
08 - Mendenahll(1) Sweed(2)B. Davis(3) T. Hills(4)D.
Dixon(5)
09 - Hood(1) Ubrik(3) Wallace(3)K. Lewis(3)J. Burnett(5) F.
Summers(5) Ubrik was cut in camp
10 - Pouncey(1) Worilds(2)E. Sanders(3)T. Gibson(4)F.
Scott(5)C. Butler(5) S. Stevenson(5)
11 - C. hayward(1)M. Gilbert(2)C. Brown(3)C. Allen(4)C.
Carter(5)
12 - DeCastro(1) M. Adams(2) S. Spence(3)A. Ta'amu(4) C.
Rainy(5)

Want to know why SF is so good - Davis(6), Willis(11), Staley(28), Lupati(17), Crabtree(10), Davis(11), A. Smith(6), Reid(18) - FA Smith(4)- All high 1st rd picks except Staley

Dallas: Rds 1-5

07- Spencer(1), Marten(3) Stanback(3) Free(4)
08 - Jones(1) Jenkins(1) Bennett(2) Choice(4) Scandrick(5)
09 - Willaims(3) Brewster(3) MCgee(4) Butler(4) Williams(4)
Smith(5), Hamlin(5)
10 - Bryant(1) Lee(2) Ansah(4)
11 - Smith(1) Carter(2) Murray(3) Arkin(4) thomas(5)
12 - Claiborne(1) Crawford(3) Wilbur(4) Johnson(5)

Philly: Rds 1-5

07 - Kolb(2) Abiamiri(2) Bradley(3) Hunt(3) Gaddis(5) Celek
08- Laws(2) Jackson(2)Smith(3)McGlynn(4) Demps(4) Ikegownu(4
09 - Maclin(1) McCoy(2) Ingram(5) harris(5) Topou (5)
10 - Graham(1) Allen(2) Teo Nashim(3) Lindley(4) Clayton(4)
kafka(4) Harbor(4) Sapp(5) Cooper(5
11 - Watkins(1) Jarrett(2) Marsh(3) matthews(4) henry(4)
Lewis(5) Vandervelde(5)
12 - Cox(1) Kendircks(2) Curry(2) Foles(3) Boykin(4)
Kelly(5)

Wash: 1-5
07 - Landry(1) Sartz(5)
08 - Thomas(2) Davis(2) Kelly(2) Reinhart(4) Tryon(4)
09 - Orapko(1) Barnes(3) Glenn(5)
10 - Williams(1) Riley(4)
11 - Kerrigan(1) Jenkins(2) Hankerson(3) Helu(4) Gomes(5)
Paul(5)
12 - RG111(1), Lebirius(3) Cousins(4) Robinson(4) Gettis(5)

Funny thing when you look at these. Teams best players are almost always 1st and 2nd rd picks. Complete myth that mid round picks give you depth. Most of these players become depth for other teams, not their own



Thanks Stretch  
gersh : 12/27/2013 8:49 am : link
for raising the level
Agree with article  
SalTony56 : 12/27/2013 9:08 am : link
If John Mara going to come down on anyone its Reese and the Scouting Department. Too many reaches ( Austin, Simtin)that did not pan out as well as other failures such as Barden, Mosely etc. Yes I am well aware its a big crapshoot with the draft but if you miss enough times you end up with a Talent drain as we have now.
This was posted when it was published  
DaShotel13 : 12/27/2013 9:17 am : link
But this is a much better article about the Giants poor drafts (and bad luck)
The New York Football (Injured) Giants - ( New Window )
....  
yankees78 : 12/27/2013 9:17 am : link
Quote:
@art_stapleton: Some were asking how the #NYG draft numbers I had in my story today compare to other teams ... here's one for you: Seattle ...

@art_stapleton: Since 2008, the Seahawks have drafted 53 players and 38 of those players are on NFL rosters, 29 still with Seattle.

@art_stapleton: Again, if the Seahawks set the standard, #NYG have fallen well below that draft-wise. No team hits at 100 percent ...

@art_stapleton: Never said you can't win with that formula - just makes it awfully difficult to cover up mistakes + plug holes that are bound to pop up #NYG

@art_stapleton: And to be fair, one great draft can change the perception + reality of that quick. See Seattle, 2012 - 10 picks, 10 in the NFL, 3 stars.
....  
BrettNYG10 : 12/27/2013 9:21 am : link
There is so much luck involved in the draft it's incredible. Didn't we have Rolando McClain rated higher than JPP in 2010? Same with DHB over Nicks in 2009. Things like that probably happen all over the draft. Over larger sample sizes, skill shines through. But a handful of down years in the draft are bound to happen for even the best of GMs.
..  
Named Later : 12/27/2013 9:23 am : link
Watching last week's NFL highlights, the one thing that jumped out at me -- the startling amount of rookies making plays. I don't have a list of names to reference, but I remember a remarkable number of rooks getting mentioned. The one guy I recall was the Pat's rookie DB from Rutgers, right in our own backyard.

This year we have Pugh, and who knows what else. Last year it was Wilson for a few games & Randle (and who knows what else). Year before that it was Prince (and whow knows). JPP & LV (and who knows).

If you have enough confidence to pick the player....coach 'em up and get 'em out there !!!

Right, people will just use statistics as an "alibi"...  
okiegiant : 12/27/2013 9:23 am : link
lets not let facts get in the way of a good complaint and moan.
Hopefully  
Mike in NY : 12/27/2013 9:24 am : link
This will shut up the crowd who thinks the best thing is always to trade down and stockpile picks. You do what it takes to get elite talent and that is by having 1st and 2nd Round picks. If last year's draft is any indication, the Giants are not likely to get an additional 2nd Round pick unless they trade down to one of the last few picks of the round and there is a noticeable gap after the Top 15-20 this year. Dallas trading down from 18 to 31 only netted them a high 3rd
RE: Sintim is the head scratcher...  
Greg from LI : 12/27/2013 9:38 am : link
In comment 11415757 SHO'NUFF said:
Quote:
I think it was one of the few times BBI was in complete agreement about a bad pick...even leading up to the draft when word leaked out about TC's infatuation with Sintim, people were up in arms. I imagine TC hasn't sent Al Groh any Christmas cards, since that day.


Still banging away at your asinine conspiracy theory, I see
RE: Agree with article  
Greg from LI : 12/27/2013 9:40 am : link
In comment 11415839 SalTony56 said:
Quote:
If John Mara going to come down on anyone its Reese and the Scouting Department. Too many reaches ( Austin, Simtin)that did not pan out as well as other failures such as Barden, Mosely etc. Yes I am well aware its a big crapshoot with the draft but if you miss enough times you end up with a Talent drain as we have now.


Clint Sintim wasn't close to a reach. He was a poor fit for the scheme.
....  
BrettNYG10 : 12/27/2013 9:44 am : link
Sintim over Max Unger... :(
Draft  
stretch234 : 12/27/2013 11:05 am : link
You understand taking a flyer on Austin. You understood why they drafted Barden at the time.

You understood not drafting a C and have a rookie in front of the franchise QB

Sintim is the 1 high pick that was really not good because of the system he played vs what the Giants played.
They need to stop trying to be smarter than the rest of the league.  
TC : 12/27/2013 12:42 pm : link
ANY prospect can bomb, but to consistently focus on trying to find the hidden gem, the athlete who will develop into a football player, results in too many DOA's. Sometimes all you have to do is put the square peg in the square hole.
TC  
Mike in NY : 12/27/2013 12:52 pm : link
You look at the overwhelming majority of teams, starting in Round 3 you get a lot more of the sleepers going. Every year The Huddle Report compiles Top 100 lists from across the web and without fail of the 64 picks in the first 2 rounds the guys consistently at the top have about 62-64 in their Top 100 (sometimes 60-61 if it is a really bad year in terms of depth). Round 3 and early Round 4 is where you see the surprise picks. Assuming the top person got 62 out of the first 64 and 88 overall out of the Top 100 that means 96.875% of the Top 64 picks and only 72.222% of the next 36 were in the Top 100. Once the guys people see as definite starters are gone, teams gamble on those they see as having particular traits and you get into the variability of rankings
I'm curious  
Randy in CT : 12/27/2013 1:09 pm : link
as to how much difference there is between the talent evaluation abilities of the scouts on all the teams? As opposed to making different decisions about players.
RE: I'm curious  
AnishPatel : 12/27/2013 1:14 pm : link
In comment 11416198 Randy in CT said:
Quote:
as to how much difference there is between the talent evaluation abilities of the scouts on all the teams? As opposed to making different decisions about players.


I would say there is a difference from my personal experiences. In the end it comes down peoples opinions on other people. Some may see upside or talent while others may be turned off by it for some reason.

Factor in different dynamics of each organization and you will get differences. You will get different draft boards because some veteran scouts may get more say.

That's what makes football great. You have to hope you surround yourself with good scouts, but then know how to use their experience and knowledge to better your team.
THE DRAFT SHOULD BE FOR NEED  
OldPolack : 12/27/2013 2:01 pm : link
not for bagging a player that might be good
IT'S LIKE A HORSE PLAYER
that likes LONG SHOTS or
an INVESTOR that buys penny stocks.
I'm impressed with the SEAHAWKS
and the turnaround.
WAKE UP MARA.
Drafting for need  
Mike in NY : 12/27/2013 2:02 pm : link
Is how we ended up in the situation we are now. You draft to accumulate as much talent as possible and use free agency to fill needs
AND NO  
OldPolack : 12/27/2013 2:06 pm : link
lineman for ELI and NO TE.
SMART
Can't be true  
jeff57 : 12/27/2013 2:11 pm : link
So many on here say Reese's drafts have been peachy keen.
Seahawks  
Mike in NY : 12/27/2013 2:15 pm : link
The reason they turned it around is because they have been able to stockpile late round DB's and have a 3rd Round QB on a rookie contract. That has allowed them to use Free Agency to stockpile pass rushers and attack the QB like the Giants did under Spags. When they suddenly have to pay Wilson, Sherman, etc. we will see how good they are
They drafted  
AnishPatel : 12/27/2013 2:17 pm : link
well too. From 3rd rounders on they hit on those. That's why they are where they are. Once they have to pay their guys things may change. If they continue to draft well, then they will have long term success.
In the six year period mentioned...  
Gary from The East End : Admin : 12/27/2013 2:29 pm : link
...the Giants have picked last twice. How can you discuss the Giants draft performance without noting this?
RE: RE: Sintim is the head scratcher...  
SHO'NUFF : 12/27/2013 4:06 pm : link
In comment 11415876 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 11415757 SHO'NUFF said:


Quote:


I think it was one of the few times BBI was in complete agreement about a bad pick...even leading up to the draft when word leaked out about TC's infatuation with Sintim, people were up in arms. I imagine TC hasn't sent Al Groh any Christmas cards, since that day.



Still banging away at your asinine conspiracy theory, I see


Theory?? It was plainly spelled out that a favor was made to an old friend.
RE: The in Reese I Trust crowd have  
M in CT : 12/27/2013 5:06 pm : link
In comment 11415599 LauderdaleMatty said:
Quote:
Been rather quiet for a reason. He's fucked up the draft a lot. He's more at fault than anyone else for this year


no, we've not bee quiet.

it's just that the lunatics often scream louder, so they drown out the rational people.

if this is what passes for "analysis," then it's not even worth addressing.
Very mundane article.  
section125 : 12/27/2013 5:22 pm : link
Stating the obvious is neither harsh nor earth shaking.
Horseshit article with no baseline comparison stats  
BlueLou : 12/27/2013 6:53 pm : link
to back up one word of its analysis. LOL at the author refuting an accusation via twitter re the same complaint, by giving the results of the Seahawks' past 5 drafts or so. LO fookin L.
This is why  
Spock : 12/27/2013 9:18 pm : link
I don't care if we draft eight or fifteen this year. Chances are we will blow it.
RE: They need to stop trying to be smarter than the rest of the league.  
EricJ (formerly Tyleraimee) : 12/27/2013 9:50 pm : link
In comment 11416165 TC said:
Quote:
ANY prospect can bomb, but to consistently focus on trying to find the hidden gem, the athlete who will develop into a football player, results in too many DOA's.


This is exactly what separates our philosophy vs that of Belichik. That guy wants FOOTBALL PLAYERS on his team first and foremost. Even in free agency, he has his eye on a certain type of player and the physical skills are not the MOST important factor.

If you take a guy like Ronnie Lott and look at whatever his combine numbers looked like, I will bet that he did not jump out and raise any eyebrows. He has everything that you cannot measure though which is why he is a hall of famer.
Simplification  
Percy : 12/28/2013 10:23 am : link
Reese and those he has entrusted with scouting and player assessment are at the heart of what's wrong. They have picked weak, poor football players. They have gambled and lost on formerly injured or small players or players with questionable discipline or attitudes. Stop that. We need not have any further debate here about picking for need or BPA. The team's players are so bad that the need picks and BPA picks for the Giants are identical. So go BPA and, with a little luck (always needed for a pick to work out), a need will be taken care of. My own preference -- since blocking and the run game are the most pressing "needs" to keep Eli alive and able to do his thing -- is get massive, powerful, agile OL replacement BPAs, anywhere along the O line, including TE, to the extent not fillable in FA, and a bigger, stronger RB with demonstrated ability to repeatedly block the crap out onrushing defenders. But, if BPA at any pick spot is not an OL or RB, just go BPA. After all, it's not as if we don't have huge holes to fill across the whole starting lineup on both sides of the ball!
When are we going to go  
Bill in UT : 12/28/2013 10:30 am : link
BSA for the scouting dept.?
The Seahawks?!?  
RobCarpenter : 12/28/2013 12:50 pm : link
Yes they are a good team, but this is the same team that took Aaron Curry #4 overall in 2009, in a year when the Giants took Nicks.

Someone badly needs to do some real statistical analysis here.
..................  
sphinx : 12/28/2013 2:07 pm : link
New York Giants ‏@Giants 52m
Cover of #nyg #giants program tomorrow features the 2013 Draft class. @giantspathanlon @JosephSkiba @giantswfan pic.twitter.com/nTgY8tZHAo
Retweeted by pat hanlon

since 2007: Giants SB wins 2, Seattle SB wins 0  
Dylan fan : 12/28/2013 2:55 pm : link
I'll take the hideous Giants & their hideous drafting & their hideous GM & all their hideous players & all their hideous coaches that all the fucking moronic shitheads on this site loudly rant about every fucking day of their miserable lives over Seattle. When Seattle wins 2 SBs in the next 6 years, then get back to me about how awesome a team they are.
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