"analysis" without league-wide stats. Would you really expect the typical 7th round pick to be in the league 6 years after the draft? There were over 180 guys chosen ahead of him... And a couple of hundred more every year.
The draft is the primary source of high quality players for any team in the NFL. Good teams draft well and fill in around the edges with free agents, both vet and rookie. Bad teams draft badly and attempt to overcompensate with free agents. The GIANTS got away with that for a while until free agent defections, age, and injuries caught up with their veteran core.
The GIANTS are a bad team in large part because they have drafted badly since Reese's landmark 2007 draft.
It's one of the reasons the cap is so tight. When you need to sign a Jenkins or a Baas because of missed picks or passing on a guy like Unger for Sintim you kill yourself
He isnt the only one in the room.. What I believe has hurt the Giants is that Reese is no longer the director of scouting. When he was in that position with EA at the helm the Giants drafts were better.. The scouting I believe is as much if not more of an issue than Reese himself.
He isnt the only one in the room.. What I believe has hurt the Giants is that Reese is no longer the director of scouting. When he was in that position with EA at the helm the Giants drafts were better.. The scouting I believe is as much if not more of an issue than Reese himself.
Bullshit. He's the GM. Ross and the scouts work for him and it's his final say on every draft pick. It's starting to get annoying. He's the guy in charge. Who the fuck else is ultimately responsible I year after year the. Drafts suck. It's not the total lack of success in later rounds either. No way the scouts talked him into guys like Beckum Sintim, Austin etc if he wasn't sold. He's a career scout. Sure he takes input but of he is toy relying on his scouts the. He should be fired for that.
I think it was one of the few times BBI was in complete agreement about a bad pick...even leading up to the draft when word leaked out about TC's infatuation with Sintim, people were up in arms. I imagine TC hasn't sent Al Groh any Christmas cards, since that day.
Sorry, but this "staggering" figure isn't staggering.
If changes need to made, he needs to make them. I do like last years draft. I think the first three picks will be starters. Cox will be a useful backup. I'm not sure about Cooper Taylor. But three starters and a useful backup is a good draft.
where we have no idea what the percentages are for the rest of the league in comparison. Would love to see an accurate "hits and misses" for the rest of the teams in the NFL during that same span. We're not as bad as you might think.
I agree with CT Charlie and others that any measure of success or failure in the draft needs to be compared with the league wide results of all of the NFL teams. Is there any web site that tracks how well teams do in the draft? How do you measure a draft choice? How well does Mel Kiper (Or other talking heads) do in his rankings of players/positions through out the years?
Reese is a bigger part of the problem than many care to admit
Not only comparing to other teams success rates but other aspects such as, Pro Bowler and Starters from the draft?
Also, guys who get hurt unrelated to medical red flags is just bad luck (Chad Jones) and Stapleton mentions Goff.
Goff was a 5th round pick who would have been our starting MIKE but tore his ACL.
Then the Redskins signed him and he tore the same ACL.
Lazy analysis
Their college scouting has left a lot to be desired, and those failures have been the result of mistakes, philosophical differences or just bad luck in terms of injuries (Clint Sintim, Jonathan Goff, Chad Jones). - See more at: http://www.northjersey.com/sports/237271121_NFL__Giants__scouts_strikng_out.html?page=all#sthash.xbAgVarN.dpuf
Analysis will mostly alibi for Reese. You all ready saw it on Thai thread. He's not responsible because he has to rely on his scouts. Oh like every other GM in the NFL?
He passed on Unger to draft Sintim. He took Austin. He's take 7 recievers in years in the first 3 rounds and two OL. His best WR pick ever tanked last season out of those 7 picks and only 2 will be on the team next year.
Stats are fine but if people will make excuses regardless of them. Reese has fucked up in the draft a lot.
I have already done this with Green bay and Baltimore on 1st, 2nd 3rd 4th & 5th round picks. Reese has hit on more 1st & 2nd and less 3rd. 4th & 5th are similar. Reese's 3rd round picks have not been as productive.
Here are some others:
New England:
2004 - Wilfork(1) Watson(1) M. Hill(2), G. Scott(3), D.
Reid(3) C. Cobbs(4)P. Sam(5)
2005 - Maknins(1)E. Hobbs(2) N. Kazcur(3)J. Sanders(4)R.
Claridge(5)
2006 - L. maroney(1)C. jackson(2), D. Thomas(3), G. Mills(4)
S. Gostkowski(5)R. O'Callaghan(5)
2007 - B. Merriwether(1)K. Brown(4) C. Oldenburg(5)
2008 - J. Mayo(1)t. Wheatley(2) S. Crable(3) K.
O'Connell(3) J.Wilhite(4) M. Slater(5)
2009 - P. Chung(2)S. Vollmer(2) R. Brace(2) D. Butler(2)
B Tate(3) T. mcKenzie(3) R. Ornberger(4)G. Bussey(5)
2010 - D. McOurty(1) R. Gronkowski(2) J. Cunningham(2) T.
Price(3) A. Hernandez(4) Z. Mesko(5)
2011 - N. Solder(1) Ras I Dowling(2) S. Vereen(2) R.
Mallett(3) M. Cannon(5) L. Smith(5)
2012 - C. Jones(1) D. Hightower(1) T. Wilson(2) J. Bequette(3)
Pittsburgh:
07 - Timmons(1) Woodley(2) Spaeth(3) Sepulveda(4) McBean(4)
Stephenson(5) Gay (5)
08 - Mendenahll(1) Sweed(2)B. Davis(3) T. Hills(4)D.
Dixon(5)
09 - Hood(1) Ubrik(3) Wallace(3)K. Lewis(3)J. Burnett(5) F.
Summers(5) Ubrik was cut in camp
10 - Pouncey(1) Worilds(2)E. Sanders(3)T. Gibson(4)F.
Scott(5)C. Butler(5) S. Stevenson(5)
11 - C. hayward(1)M. Gilbert(2)C. Brown(3)C. Allen(4)C.
Carter(5)
12 - DeCastro(1) M. Adams(2) S. Spence(3)A. Ta'amu(4) C.
Rainy(5)
Want to know why SF is so good - Davis(6), Willis(11), Staley(28), Lupati(17), Crabtree(10), Davis(11), A. Smith(6), Reid(18) - FA Smith(4)- All high 1st rd picks except Staley
Funny thing when you look at these. Teams best players are almost always 1st and 2nd rd picks. Complete myth that mid round picks give you depth. Most of these players become depth for other teams, not their own
If John Mara going to come down on anyone its Reese and the Scouting Department. Too many reaches ( Austin, Simtin)that did not pan out as well as other failures such as Barden, Mosely etc. Yes I am well aware its a big crapshoot with the draft but if you miss enough times you end up with a Talent drain as we have now.
@art_stapleton: Some were asking how the #NYG draft numbers I had in my story today compare to other teams ... here's one for you: Seattle ...
@art_stapleton: Since 2008, the Seahawks have drafted 53 players and 38 of those players are on NFL rosters, 29 still with Seattle.
@art_stapleton: Again, if the Seahawks set the standard, #NYG have fallen well below that draft-wise. No team hits at 100 percent ...
@art_stapleton: Never said you can't win with that formula - just makes it awfully difficult to cover up mistakes + plug holes that are bound to pop up #NYG
@art_stapleton: And to be fair, one great draft can change the perception + reality of that quick. See Seattle, 2012 - 10 picks, 10 in the NFL, 3 stars.
There is so much luck involved in the draft it's incredible. Didn't we have Rolando McClain rated higher than JPP in 2010? Same with DHB over Nicks in 2009. Things like that probably happen all over the draft. Over larger sample sizes, skill shines through. But a handful of down years in the draft are bound to happen for even the best of GMs.
Watching last week's NFL highlights, the one thing that jumped out at me -- the startling amount of rookies making plays. I don't have a list of names to reference, but I remember a remarkable number of rooks getting mentioned. The one guy I recall was the Pat's rookie DB from Rutgers, right in our own backyard.
This year we have Pugh, and who knows what else. Last year it was Wilson for a few games & Randle (and who knows what else). Year before that it was Prince (and whow knows). JPP & LV (and who knows).
If you have enough confidence to pick the player....coach 'em up and get 'em out there !!!
Right, people will just use statistics as an "alibi"...
This will shut up the crowd who thinks the best thing is always to trade down and stockpile picks. You do what it takes to get elite talent and that is by having 1st and 2nd Round picks. If last year's draft is any indication, the Giants are not likely to get an additional 2nd Round pick unless they trade down to one of the last few picks of the round and there is a noticeable gap after the Top 15-20 this year. Dallas trading down from 18 to 31 only netted them a high 3rd
I think it was one of the few times BBI was in complete agreement about a bad pick...even leading up to the draft when word leaked out about TC's infatuation with Sintim, people were up in arms. I imagine TC hasn't sent Al Groh any Christmas cards, since that day.
Still banging away at your asinine conspiracy theory, I see
If John Mara going to come down on anyone its Reese and the Scouting Department. Too many reaches ( Austin, Simtin)that did not pan out as well as other failures such as Barden, Mosely etc. Yes I am well aware its a big crapshoot with the draft but if you miss enough times you end up with a Talent drain as we have now.
Clint Sintim wasn't close to a reach. He was a poor fit for the scheme.
ANY prospect can bomb, but to consistently focus on trying to find the hidden gem, the athlete who will develop into a football player, results in too many DOA's. Sometimes all you have to do is put the square peg in the square hole.
You look at the overwhelming majority of teams, starting in Round 3 you get a lot more of the sleepers going. Every year The Huddle Report compiles Top 100 lists from across the web and without fail of the 64 picks in the first 2 rounds the guys consistently at the top have about 62-64 in their Top 100 (sometimes 60-61 if it is a really bad year in terms of depth). Round 3 and early Round 4 is where you see the surprise picks. Assuming the top person got 62 out of the first 64 and 88 overall out of the Top 100 that means 96.875% of the Top 64 picks and only 72.222% of the next 36 were in the Top 100. Once the guys people see as definite starters are gone, teams gamble on those they see as having particular traits and you get into the variability of rankings
as to how much difference there is between the talent evaluation abilities of the scouts on all the teams? As opposed to making different decisions about players.
as to how much difference there is between the talent evaluation abilities of the scouts on all the teams? As opposed to making different decisions about players.
I would say there is a difference from my personal experiences. In the end it comes down peoples opinions on other people. Some may see upside or talent while others may be turned off by it for some reason.
Factor in different dynamics of each organization and you will get differences. You will get different draft boards because some veteran scouts may get more say.
That's what makes football great. You have to hope you surround yourself with good scouts, but then know how to use their experience and knowledge to better your team.
not for bagging a player that might be good
IT'S LIKE A HORSE PLAYER
that likes LONG SHOTS or
an INVESTOR that buys penny stocks.
I'm impressed with the SEAHAWKS
and the turnaround.
WAKE UP MARA.
The reason they turned it around is because they have been able to stockpile late round DB's and have a 3rd Round QB on a rookie contract. That has allowed them to use Free Agency to stockpile pass rushers and attack the QB like the Giants did under Spags. When they suddenly have to pay Wilson, Sherman, etc. we will see how good they are
well too. From 3rd rounders on they hit on those. That's why they are where they are. Once they have to pay their guys things may change. If they continue to draft well, then they will have long term success.
I think it was one of the few times BBI was in complete agreement about a bad pick...even leading up to the draft when word leaked out about TC's infatuation with Sintim, people were up in arms. I imagine TC hasn't sent Al Groh any Christmas cards, since that day.
Still banging away at your asinine conspiracy theory, I see
Theory?? It was plainly spelled out that a favor was made to an old friend.
to back up one word of its analysis. LOL at the author refuting an accusation via twitter re the same complaint, by giving the results of the Seahawks' past 5 drafts or so. LO fookin L.
ANY prospect can bomb, but to consistently focus on trying to find the hidden gem, the athlete who will develop into a football player, results in too many DOA's.
This is exactly what separates our philosophy vs that of Belichik. That guy wants FOOTBALL PLAYERS on his team first and foremost. Even in free agency, he has his eye on a certain type of player and the physical skills are not the MOST important factor.
If you take a guy like Ronnie Lott and look at whatever his combine numbers looked like, I will bet that he did not jump out and raise any eyebrows. He has everything that you cannot measure though which is why he is a hall of famer.
Reese and those he has entrusted with scouting and player assessment are at the heart of what's wrong. They have picked weak, poor football players. They have gambled and lost on formerly injured or small players or players with questionable discipline or attitudes. Stop that. We need not have any further debate here about picking for need or BPA. The team's players are so bad that the need picks and BPA picks for the Giants are identical. So go BPA and, with a little luck (always needed for a pick to work out), a need will be taken care of. My own preference -- since blocking and the run game are the most pressing "needs" to keep Eli alive and able to do his thing -- is get massive, powerful, agile OL replacement BPAs, anywhere along the O line, including TE, to the extent not fillable in FA, and a bigger, stronger RB with demonstrated ability to repeatedly block the crap out onrushing defenders. But, if BPA at any pick spot is not an OL or RB, just go BPA. After all, it's not as if we don't have huge holes to fill across the whole starting lineup on both sides of the ball!
New York Giants @Giants 52m
Cover of #nyg #giants program tomorrow features the 2013 Draft class. @giantspathanlon @JosephSkiba @giantswfan pic.twitter.com/nTgY8tZHAo
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I'll take the hideous Giants & their hideous drafting & their hideous GM & all their hideous players & all their hideous coaches that all the fucking moronic shitheads on this site loudly rant about every fucking day of their miserable lives over Seattle. When Seattle wins 2 SBs in the next 6 years, then get back to me about how awesome a team they are.
Clear example of a bad pick. He didn't even fit a 4-3 defense but we draft him anyway.
That 2009 Draft was terrible, minus Nicks.
The draft is the primary source of high quality players for any team in the NFL. Good teams draft well and fill in around the edges with free agents, both vet and rookie. Bad teams draft badly and attempt to overcompensate with free agents. The GIANTS got away with that for a while until free agent defections, age, and injuries caught up with their veteran core.
The GIANTS are a bad team in large part because they have drafted badly since Reese's landmark 2007 draft.
Bullshit. He's the GM. Ross and the scouts work for him and it's his final say on every draft pick. It's starting to get annoying. He's the guy in charge. Who the fuck else is ultimately responsible I year after year the. Drafts suck. It's not the total lack of success in later rounds either. No way the scouts talked him into guys like Beckum Sintim, Austin etc if he wasn't sold. He's a career scout. Sure he takes input but of he is toy relying on his scouts the. He should be fired for that.
picking in the top 15 means nothing.. we will take the guy with the best back handspring to back flip ratio available.
There must be some way to objectively rank teams' drafts.
Also, guys who get hurt unrelated to medical red flags is just bad luck (Chad Jones) and Stapleton mentions Goff.
Goff was a 5th round pick who would have been our starting MIKE but tore his ACL.
Then the Redskins signed him and he tore the same ACL.
Lazy analysis
Their college scouting has left a lot to be desired, and those failures have been the result of mistakes, philosophical differences or just bad luck in terms of injuries (Clint Sintim, Jonathan Goff, Chad Jones). - See more at: http://www.northjersey.com/sports/237271121_NFL__Giants__scouts_strikng_out.html?page=all#sthash.xbAgVarN.dpuf
He passed on Unger to draft Sintim. He took Austin. He's take 7 recievers in years in the first 3 rounds and two OL. His best WR pick ever tanked last season out of those 7 picks and only 2 will be on the team next year.
Stats are fine but if people will make excuses regardless of them. Reese has fucked up in the draft a lot.
Here are some others:
New England:
2004 - Wilfork(1) Watson(1) M. Hill(2), G. Scott(3), D.
Reid(3) C. Cobbs(4)P. Sam(5)
2005 - Maknins(1)E. Hobbs(2) N. Kazcur(3)J. Sanders(4)R.
Claridge(5)
2006 - L. maroney(1)C. jackson(2), D. Thomas(3), G. Mills(4)
S. Gostkowski(5)R. O'Callaghan(5)
2007 - B. Merriwether(1)K. Brown(4) C. Oldenburg(5)
2008 - J. Mayo(1)t. Wheatley(2) S. Crable(3) K.
O'Connell(3) J.Wilhite(4) M. Slater(5)
2009 - P. Chung(2)S. Vollmer(2) R. Brace(2) D. Butler(2)
B Tate(3) T. mcKenzie(3) R. Ornberger(4)G. Bussey(5)
2010 - D. McOurty(1) R. Gronkowski(2) J. Cunningham(2) T.
Price(3) A. Hernandez(4) Z. Mesko(5)
2011 - N. Solder(1) Ras I Dowling(2) S. Vereen(2) R.
Mallett(3) M. Cannon(5) L. Smith(5)
2012 - C. Jones(1) D. Hightower(1) T. Wilson(2) J. Bequette(3)
Pittsburgh:
07 - Timmons(1) Woodley(2) Spaeth(3) Sepulveda(4) McBean(4)
Stephenson(5) Gay (5)
08 - Mendenahll(1) Sweed(2)B. Davis(3) T. Hills(4)D.
Dixon(5)
09 - Hood(1) Ubrik(3) Wallace(3)K. Lewis(3)J. Burnett(5) F.
Summers(5) Ubrik was cut in camp
10 - Pouncey(1) Worilds(2)E. Sanders(3)T. Gibson(4)F.
Scott(5)C. Butler(5) S. Stevenson(5)
11 - C. hayward(1)M. Gilbert(2)C. Brown(3)C. Allen(4)C.
Carter(5)
12 - DeCastro(1) M. Adams(2) S. Spence(3)A. Ta'amu(4) C.
Rainy(5)
Want to know why SF is so good - Davis(6), Willis(11), Staley(28), Lupati(17), Crabtree(10), Davis(11), A. Smith(6), Reid(18) - FA Smith(4)- All high 1st rd picks except Staley
Dallas: Rds 1-5
07- Spencer(1), Marten(3) Stanback(3) Free(4)
08 - Jones(1) Jenkins(1) Bennett(2) Choice(4) Scandrick(5)
09 - Willaims(3) Brewster(3) MCgee(4) Butler(4) Williams(4)
Smith(5), Hamlin(5)
10 - Bryant(1) Lee(2) Ansah(4)
11 - Smith(1) Carter(2) Murray(3) Arkin(4) thomas(5)
12 - Claiborne(1) Crawford(3) Wilbur(4) Johnson(5)
Philly: Rds 1-5
07 - Kolb(2) Abiamiri(2) Bradley(3) Hunt(3) Gaddis(5) Celek
08- Laws(2) Jackson(2)Smith(3)McGlynn(4) Demps(4) Ikegownu(4
09 - Maclin(1) McCoy(2) Ingram(5) harris(5) Topou (5)
10 - Graham(1) Allen(2) Teo Nashim(3) Lindley(4) Clayton(4)
kafka(4) Harbor(4) Sapp(5) Cooper(5
11 - Watkins(1) Jarrett(2) Marsh(3) matthews(4) henry(4)
Lewis(5) Vandervelde(5)
12 - Cox(1) Kendircks(2) Curry(2) Foles(3) Boykin(4)
Kelly(5)
Wash: 1-5
07 - Landry(1) Sartz(5)
08 - Thomas(2) Davis(2) Kelly(2) Reinhart(4) Tryon(4)
09 - Orapko(1) Barnes(3) Glenn(5)
10 - Williams(1) Riley(4)
11 - Kerrigan(1) Jenkins(2) Hankerson(3) Helu(4) Gomes(5)
Paul(5)
12 - RG111(1), Lebirius(3) Cousins(4) Robinson(4) Gettis(5)
Funny thing when you look at these. Teams best players are almost always 1st and 2nd rd picks. Complete myth that mid round picks give you depth. Most of these players become depth for other teams, not their own
The New York Football (Injured) Giants - ( New Window )
@art_stapleton: Since 2008, the Seahawks have drafted 53 players and 38 of those players are on NFL rosters, 29 still with Seattle.
@art_stapleton: Again, if the Seahawks set the standard, #NYG have fallen well below that draft-wise. No team hits at 100 percent ...
@art_stapleton: Never said you can't win with that formula - just makes it awfully difficult to cover up mistakes + plug holes that are bound to pop up #NYG
@art_stapleton: And to be fair, one great draft can change the perception + reality of that quick. See Seattle, 2012 - 10 picks, 10 in the NFL, 3 stars.
This year we have Pugh, and who knows what else. Last year it was Wilson for a few games & Randle (and who knows what else). Year before that it was Prince (and whow knows). JPP & LV (and who knows).
If you have enough confidence to pick the player....coach 'em up and get 'em out there !!!
Still banging away at your asinine conspiracy theory, I see
Clint Sintim wasn't close to a reach. He was a poor fit for the scheme.
You understood not drafting a C and have a rookie in front of the franchise QB
Sintim is the 1 high pick that was really not good because of the system he played vs what the Giants played.
I would say there is a difference from my personal experiences. In the end it comes down peoples opinions on other people. Some may see upside or talent while others may be turned off by it for some reason.
Factor in different dynamics of each organization and you will get differences. You will get different draft boards because some veteran scouts may get more say.
That's what makes football great. You have to hope you surround yourself with good scouts, but then know how to use their experience and knowledge to better your team.
IT'S LIKE A HORSE PLAYER
that likes LONG SHOTS or
an INVESTOR that buys penny stocks.
I'm impressed with the SEAHAWKS
and the turnaround.
WAKE UP MARA.
SMART
Quote:
I think it was one of the few times BBI was in complete agreement about a bad pick...even leading up to the draft when word leaked out about TC's infatuation with Sintim, people were up in arms. I imagine TC hasn't sent Al Groh any Christmas cards, since that day.
Still banging away at your asinine conspiracy theory, I see
Theory?? It was plainly spelled out that a favor was made to an old friend.
no, we've not bee quiet.
it's just that the lunatics often scream louder, so they drown out the rational people.
if this is what passes for "analysis," then it's not even worth addressing.
This is exactly what separates our philosophy vs that of Belichik. That guy wants FOOTBALL PLAYERS on his team first and foremost. Even in free agency, he has his eye on a certain type of player and the physical skills are not the MOST important factor.
If you take a guy like Ronnie Lott and look at whatever his combine numbers looked like, I will bet that he did not jump out and raise any eyebrows. He has everything that you cannot measure though which is why he is a hall of famer.
Someone badly needs to do some real statistical analysis here.
Cover of #nyg #giants program tomorrow features the 2013 Draft class. @giantspathanlon @JosephSkiba @giantswfan pic.twitter.com/nTgY8tZHAo
Retweeted by pat hanlon