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How about an offense that can run the ball?

bignygfan : 12/26/2013 11:31 pm
I am sick of hearing how we won the Super Bowl when we had the league's worst rushing offense. Yeah that's fine and so did the Packers but does that sound like a recipe for success? Let's be the worst in the league at something and never address it?

There are very good to excellent teams in the NFC that do run the ball well. I am talking about Seattle, San Francisco and Philadelphia. Funny how there QBs don't seem to make as many mistakes. Oh yeah, last year's Super Bowl champs ran the ball pretty well during the season and not so much this year - one reason why they may not go back to the playoffs.

I know it's not a sexy idea or revolutionary but that's my idea on what needs to be fixed first and foremost. I saw somewhere this is the worst Giants rushing attack in over 50 years or something. Enough is enough.
so what happened in 2008  
Blue Blood : 12/27/2013 12:20 am : link
when we had the number one rushing attack in the NFL.. and we had 1,000 yard rushers.. ONE WR shooting himself changed the whole landscape of one playoff game.. So lets not make it like the Giants have never had an offense that rushed the ball.

The reality is that you have to rush well enough.. not great.. well enough.. in 2011 the Giants rushing attack did not rush well overall during the year.. but it DID rush well near the end of the year and rushed well enough in the playoffs..

Also if you fix the OL.. the rushing will improve..

RE: so what happened in 2008  
armsteadeatslittlekids : 12/27/2013 1:06 am : link
In comment 11415741 Blue Blood said:
Quote:
when we had the number one rushing attack in the NFL.. and we had 1,000 yard rushers.. ONE WR shooting himself changed the whole landscape of one playoff game.. So lets not make it like the Giants have never had an offense that rushed the ball.

The reality is that you have to rush well enough.. not great.. well enough.. in 2011 the Giants rushing attack did not rush well overall during the year.. but it DID rush well near the end of the year and rushed well enough in the playoffs..

Also if you fix the OL.. the rushing will improve..


+1
Don't be too surprised if they don't address the O-line...  
buljos : 12/27/2013 1:14 am : link
and chalk up this season's dismal line performance to injuries. I anticipate seeing the line as Beatty-Boothe-Baas-Snee-Pugh with Brewer, Mosley and Cordle in reserve. I'm not going to like it, but these guys are not big on making changes unless it's demanded of them (e.g. fix the run defense). They'll convince themselves that it was a fluke to have both Baas and Snee on IR, and it's just as likely they'll be healthy all 2014. They'll also tell themselves that they've got serviceable backups in Mosley, Brewer and Cordle. They may go line late in the draft, but that's not Pugh quality players who will contribute in 2014.
I dont see how in the world  
Blue Blood : 12/27/2013 1:18 am : link
The Giants will not address OL this offseason.. They started addressing it last year. The Giants took a gamble to try another SB within a 2-3 year window especially with the SB in their house.. that window is closed.. They will need to rebuild the OL and they know it. whether thats through the draft and/or FA.. and they dont have to spend a #1 pick on OL to fix the OL.. they really need to fix the interior.. you keep Brewer, Cordle and Mosley as back ups. but they need veteran swing tackle.. and they need someone to replace Snee and Baas.. maybe you bring back Boothe again.. MAYBE..
Carl Banks hit the nail on the head, you need to draft 3 young studs  
gtt350 : 12/27/2013 6:16 am : link
for the offensive line and let them grow together .
i would be real happy if we went OL one and two, Guard , center
RE: Don't be too surprised if they don't address the O-line...  
DTgiants : 12/27/2013 8:00 am : link
In comment 11415763 buljos said:
Quote:
and chalk up this season's dismal line performance to injuries. I anticipate seeing the line as Beatty-Boothe-Baas-Snee-Pugh with Brewer, Mosley and Cordle in reserve. I'm not going to like it, but these guys are not big on making changes unless it's demanded of them (e.g. fix the run defense). They'll convince themselves that it was a fluke to have both Baas and Snee on IR, and it's just as likely they'll be healthy all 2014. They'll also tell themselves that they've got serviceable backups in Mosley, Brewer and Cordle. They may go line late in the draft, but that's not Pugh quality players who will contribute in 2014.


I 100% agree with you and have posted this several times but the rose colored fans simply ignore the truth. Coughlin is out to prove that his staff and players can win again..I say yes maybe 4 or 5 games.
buljos and DTgiants...  
M.S. : 12/27/2013 8:07 am : link
...very interesting perspective. I don't think anything would get BBIers angrier than your dismal scenario.

IMO, the Giants will go heavy on the offensive line either via free agency, the draft or some combination of the two.

It has to happen unless you believe John Mara is looking forward to rooting for a 5-win team in 2014!
The Oline in 2014  
DTgiants : 12/27/2013 8:09 am : link
I think if we get a better LG Beatty will improve and a TE that can block to help him out from time to time. A consistent RB that can chip will help as well. Beatty is going nowhere..sorry haters

LG: I hope we draft one early or dip into FA, this position needs to upgraded, Boothe should only come back at Vet min, sorry but he is not a starter, great back up. Brewer and Mosley need to step up or they are gone as well. They both have had chances to step up but have not taken advantage.

C: Baas needs to go, I never liked the signing. Cordle needs to go as well, we need to go FA or draft a C early.

RG: Snee needs to retire or be cut, two bad hips..but if Coughlin is back so is Snee. Diehl has been the most versatile lineman we have but his body is breaking down, I think he retires but if Tc is back so is Diehl.

RT Pugh will be here for the 10 years.

We need to draft one or two guards and a center.

If TC is back I don't think we do that...sorry
M.S.  
DTgiants : 12/27/2013 8:11 am : link
I hope it does not happen but TC is treated like a god by the Giants and many on this site. I just do not see TC changing much, he has something to prove and that can be dangerous!
it's a good possibility  
fkap : 12/27/2013 8:19 am : link
not addressing the OL is only a slight bit of hyperbole. It's going to be hard to redo 3 starting spots in one year, and address depth everywhere along the line.

If Boothe signs cheap, he's back. If Baas' knee is back to normal, it's a good possibility he's back. Hard to believe Snee is back, but IF he thinks he's healthy, they might try for one more year. I doubt it, though. Cap hit vs likelihood of production isn't there. Diehl, if he signs cheap, might be viewed as a first off the bench sort of player. You need a vet backup. Diehl's problem is that his backup role seems to always be forced into a starting role.

So, it's not beyond the realm of conception that the only real change is replacing Snee, with some other moves to look toward the future.
Whew!  
vince : 12/27/2013 8:56 am : link
Reading comments and suggestions from guys who know as much about the situation as I do......Nothing!!

I read insights into Tom C's mindset. I see him accused of being stubborn, blind to the future, uninformed about his team and even refusing to look at the situation. It's not said in plain words but just read the suggestions and comments.

First, THIS SEASON, each time the OL made an advance it suffered a setback. It took Cordle three games to finally come around to where he was just presentable, then he got hurt. How about the replacement guards.,

Boothe stinks? That poster's judgement is not only to be questioned he should be pilloried!

Snee is done? That poster got the information straight from Doc Barnes, right? Does the OL need help, Yep. Is the help in house? i think so. It's been hard to prove with all the guys going down but From what I've seen and where some of the guys have played and how they have PROGRESSED!!!! It's hard to lay fault on the management.

Now it's real easy to castigate, criticize, and play God from the Den or office but if your just unhappy that the Giants are not in the playoffs. That's OK to be unhappy but to want wholesale changes and break up the team just remember this is NOT pre parity. You don't have three to five years to build a dynasty. Lose your core and you are crap.

Just check out the teams that have lost that core. Redskins are a prime example of having the core rebuilt and how long it's taken them and now that their qB is hurting an their picks are gone for awhile, it's going to take them even longer to assemble the core.

We had the luxury of a semi core when we got Eli. But I digress. bring in your anger and look at what you've got. I think each of the new guys on the OL are pretty good. THEY IN TURN need to be injury free to get to their potential! If you're trying to judge them on past performance there isn't any of value but if you can weed through the chaff and focus on the small periods when they did play well you can see their potential.

REmember the coaching staff has bet their career on these guys and you have nothing riding on them except your feelings.

Either control your feelings and your mouth and really look at what's happening and not .."They lost 6 games Oh shit, the sky is falling!"

By the way do you know what the farmer said when Chickin Little told him the sky was falling?

And I will apply it to yOu!

"HOLEY SHIT....A TALKING CHICKEN!""

























vince...  
M.S. : 12/27/2013 10:27 am : link
...you've got me perplexed. On the one hand, you make many several statements that I find myself agreeing with. On the other hand, I'm not sure what your central point is. Is it:

"We are just fans, and don't know shit... so shut the f*** up!

If that's the case, I don't think you've exactly hit the mark. Many, many BBIers had predicted the train wreck that eventually became our offensive line. Many!
M.S.  
DTgiants : 12/27/2013 11:10 am : link
Great points, I too am confused with what Vince is trying to get across. If I'm correct Vince does not think we need to do a thing about the offensive line.
RE: so what happened in 2008  
NYG in NC : 12/27/2013 11:22 am : link
In comment 11415741 Blue Blood said:
Quote:
when we had the number one rushing attack in the NFL.. and we had 1,000 yard rushers.. ONE WR shooting himself changed the whole landscape of one playoff game.. So lets not make it like the Giants have never had an offense that rushed the ball.

The reality is that you have to rush well enough.. not great.. well enough.. in 2011 the Giants rushing attack did not rush well overall during the year.. but it DID rush well near the end of the year and rushed well enough in the playoffs..

Also if you fix the OL.. the rushing will improve..


In the 2008 playoff loss we were gashing the Eagles in the run game but Eli's shitty performance made it a moot point although it's easy to make Plax the scapegoat.
OMG.....  
Doomster : 12/27/2013 11:41 am : link
Don't be too surprised if they don't address the O-line...
buljos : 1:14 am : link : reply
and chalk up this season's dismal line performance to injuries. I anticipate seeing the line as Beatty-Boothe-Baas-Snee-Pugh with Brewer, Mosley and Cordle in reserve. I'm not going to like it, but these guys are not big on making changes unless it's demanded of them (e.g. fix the run defense). They'll convince themselves that it was a fluke to have both Baas and Snee on IR, and it's just as likely they'll be healthy all 2014. They'll also tell themselves that they've got serviceable backups in Mosley, Brewer and Cordle.

If this happens, this team will go into a spiral that you won't believe....
Not really....  
Doomster : 12/27/2013 11:49 am : link
In the 2008 playoff loss we were gashing the Eagles in the run game but Eli's shitty performance made it a moot point although it's easy to make Plax the scapegoat.


Gashing them? We couldn't convert short yardage runs on 3rd and 4th downs....

Losing Plax really hurt the offense.....Eli did not have a good game.....that first throw to Smith, and then the interception on the next drive......it was all downhill for the offense after that.....

The defense gave up one long td drive and played well.....If Plax didn't screw up, I thought this team was better than the '07 team......the fact that we beat the contenders for the SB during the season really hurts, too....
Sorry, guys  
vince : 12/27/2013 11:54 am : link
The point I'm trying to make is that we have a pretty good core of OL players, Many of whom are hurt. There definitely needs to be a better OL BUT, From what I've seen there is a good chance that the help we need is there already. Maybe not but before the team starts cutting players to fit others to the scheme remember this is NOT the defensive line.

It's a whole different concept and no matter who is brought in they have to be together to jell and get into synch. From what I seen in those few moments when the newbies click, they seemed to do a good job.

This is not chiseled in stone but before I attack the admin. and TC I'd like to see these guys play awhile together. See if the puzzle comes together before changing it.
As I tried to say before, the OL must get better but to change wholesale is appealing but it is another can of worms.

Is Snee coming back better or will he be another Diehl? I really admire Diehl but his front line time maybe past and a backup is what he should be. I do believe this is his last season and he will show up as an analyst or panel board person.

Snee is completely recuperating and it's possible that he may not be the Snee of old but then again he may again be the strong man we know. I wouldn't throw him away until during or after training camp. He's too valuable not to check out thoroughly.

Again all I'm trying to say is that TC IS going to change where there is the player to improve the position. He's not going to change for change's sake.

I feel that there is gold among our rookie OL personnel and it should be looked at before wholesale changes are made.

Will there be changes? I think so but not just to make changes. Will Baas be back? He should get a chance to win his position. Same for Snee.

Beatty will be better when his guard is working in sync with him and they know the drill instead of reacting to what's happening.

The guard will be better when he works with Beatty and intuitively know where Beatty will take his man. If the guard can't do this then change the guard. Beatty has a proven record with a stable guard.

Boothe has worked all the position and is best at one position whatever the position as long as he can adjust to it OVER A PERIOD OF TIME.

I'm asking that fans do not ask for change just for the sake of change. I don't think the rookies we have are at all lacking except in reps.

There may be changes even as I think this but I think they should be given a better chance to play and show what they have.

True the pressure is on and they MUST produce on every opportunity and I think under the circumstance they have done very well.

Yes, we've lost games. but if they did not progress during those losses they should be terminated . I think each of them started to find their place and then injury hit.

My feeling is that they have done well. Putting all their small bits of playing time together they show definite improvement.l Is it enough? I ask they be given a lot more time before judgement is passed.

We'll know soon enough after TC and JR finish their individual analysis of the player' seasons work . Who gets re-signed and who get to check the market.









The way  
DTgiants : 12/27/2013 12:39 pm : link
I see it is the cap savings from cutting Snee and Baas will give the Giants money to upgrade positions elsewhere.I disagree that the answers to the line are on this team. Brewer and Moseley need to put up or shut up. I would not be against bringing back Diehl and Boothe as versatile backups but only at vet min.

Time to move on.....
DtGiants  
djm : 12/27/2013 12:44 pm : link
saying Coughlin refuses to make changes to the team just spits in the face of logic and truth.

The OL morphed from one unit to an entirely new unit. How many Olineman are here from 2005? The WRs have all changed from 2005 to 2010 to now. The DL has changed.

In 2013 the Giants went with the "same" OL because they had little cap room and even if they cut Snee and Baas they would have been unable to bring in adequate replacements. Don't over think this. If Coughlin and Reese could add talent to the OL they would have. They are not stupid.

Holy fuck make it stop.

and you can take this to the bank  
djm : 12/27/2013 12:47 pm : link
the Giants will address the OL this off season. They will bring in at least one interior player via FA and probably draft another.

They couldn't bring in vet FA talent because they didn't have the resources. They had almost no other choice but to roll the dice and hope that Snee and Baas could hold the fort and/or the younger players could step up if needed. It didn't happen. They will correct this error in 2-3 months. Bank on it.
Djm  
DTgiants : 12/27/2013 12:48 pm : link
I was talking about cutting them after this season! I was also referring to Coughlin and Gilbride not making changes to the offense to fit the personnel.
Change goes beyond players, please take off your rose colored glasses.
DJM  
DTgiants : 12/27/2013 12:52 pm : link
How are you so certain that they will do as you say? I'm sorry but I see TC telling Reese and Mara that Beatty, Boothe, Bass, Snee and Pugh will do just fine.
I believe Snee  
fkap : 12/27/2013 1:48 pm : link
would have yielded significant cap savings had he been cut last year. Someone put out a very cogent scenario of cutting him and using the savings to better the line. The Giants chose to believe that Snee's surgery would make everything all better, even though it's been obvious for a couple years that he's been on the decline. Snee was a bad decision from start to finish.

Not really much choice with Baas last year, and it was the right choice to retain him. He added to his string of injuries, and we still don't know how good he would be if he could stay healthy.

we made the best of Diehl. his cap hit was diminished, and he provides good depth. He was then thrust into starting.


Contrary to popular belief, the OL has not been neglected. They've drafted a lot, they put significant resources into a center who's injured a lot, and so-so when healthy, but can't stay healthy enough to really say what sort of player he is. They put a lot (too much) into the LT. the problem is that their efforts have yielded meh. So far this year, the only bright spot has been Pugh, who gets a lot of leeway because he's a rookie. Maybe Cordle, who showed that he might have a spot for depth.
fkap...  
M.S. : 12/27/2013 2:36 pm : link
...you make several valid points!
when you stop and think about it  
fkap : 12/27/2013 3:24 pm : link
I don't think any area has been ignored. Over the last 5-7 years, I think every single unit has been addressed.

The problem is that the addressing has been spotty, at best. Nobody bats 1000, except, as McKee said, the Beatles. I'm thinking there's too many misses all over the place. After a while, you can't chalk it all up to bad luck.
Are you for freakin' real?  
Doomster : 12/27/2013 4:21 pm : link
when you stop and think about it
fkap : 3:24 pm : link : reply
I don't think any area has been ignored. Over the last 5-7 years, I think every single unit has been addressed.


The OL has not been ignored? The linebacker position has not been ignored? The TE position has not been ignored?

The positions have been filled, by the mere fact that you need a prescribed number of players at each position...but to say that we have made an effort to improve those positions, is a pipe dream.....
O Line Changes  
Percy : 12/28/2013 1:08 pm : link
It is hard to agree with your idea that we have a core of good O linemen, if only they could be restored to health. Time, my friend, passes on, and recovery from injury as time is passing is harder or impossible (depending, of course, on the nature of the injury and how well it could be repaired). Aging and injury have done in Messrs. Snee, Diehl and Bass. Boothe maybe OK at C, but Brewer and Mosely do not look like starter material. Pugh is fine. A powerful new LG might help rehabilitate Beatty, but it also might not: he's hardly Pro Bowl material anyway -- an uncertain situation, but we're stuck with him through at least next year in some capacity. We have no one who can block at TE (to say nothing of being a threat in the pass-catching department). So it will be more than a surprise to Giants fans if the OL does not receive a serious redo at season's end. They may take to the streets about it if nothing major is done in this regard -- besiege Mara and crew in their automobiles, picket their houses, pelt them with rotten fruit, write mean letters. You know, the usual things.
Meant Baas  
Percy : 12/28/2013 1:10 pm : link
Of course. Got overexcited there for a moment.
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