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Garafolo mentions assistant changes

bigfrank612 : 12/30/2013 11:14 am
One guy just asked Mike (who I'm a long time fan of and trust) if anything was happening with the Giants. He responded by saying not yet, but there will be. Mentioned assistants will be fired and new ones hired. Any guess who/what positions?
Special Teams  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/30/2013 11:16 am : link
WR coach
QB coach
LB Coach?
Sean Ryan's likely gone  
Greg from LI : 12/30/2013 11:18 am : link
Maybe, just maybe, Quinn, but his special teams have been crap for most of his tenure and he's never been in danger before.
Yes  
mrvax : 12/30/2013 11:18 am : link
Put the blame on just the assistants.
Quinn  
bigfrank612 : 12/30/2013 11:19 am : link
NEEDS to go! I'm just over it, something finally has to be done about him.
Could Giants hire  
mjvm52106 : 12/30/2013 11:19 am : link
an OC with the title of Assistant Head Coach? I suspect if TC stays this is his last year! Personally I think Giants should move on now. Its time to rebuild and even Eli is one that is on the downside of things based on the way he has played the last two years.

Bring in a new coach and start building now. Wait a year and we have Reeves all over again.
the only one  
MookGiants : 12/30/2013 11:22 am : link
on the staff that is safe is Tom and probably Mike Pope.

And that's if Tom wants to come back, we assume he does but he hasn't said so yet
my guess:  
fkap : 12/30/2013 11:23 am : link
the assistant to the assistant of the guy who gets TC's newspaper off the front step.

Everyone else returns.
Really hoping for a strong QB coach  
Ben in Tampa : 12/30/2013 11:23 am : link
to push Eli.
I wonder  
Sammo284 : 12/30/2013 11:28 am : link
if Coughlin requests an extension even just for one year and what happens if the Giants decide not to go that route? Would he just decide to retire then? I wonder if Coughlin is waiting to see how the Giants approach him about changes, etc.

I think Fewell is iffy to be brought back even despite the back half of the season. You can't ignore the fact that twice now Fewell has had to be called out by the players for his scheme/complexity. It sounds like Gilbride will survive, but I don't see how Sean Ryan/Quinn can survive. Their areas of responsibility/control were just absolutely abysmal this year.

Flaherty deserves a reprieve considering his body of work here and the fact that he got handed a bunch of spoiled meat yet again by Reese/Coughlin and asked to turn it into filet mignon.
RE: Sean Ryan's likely gone  
Victor in CT : 12/30/2013 11:30 am : link
In comment 11422360 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
Maybe, just maybe, Quinn, but his special teams have been crap for most of his tenure and he's never been in danger before.


True, but poor STs are a direct result of poor middle and lower round drafts. That is where you get those plugger types. The Giants have failed miserably in rounds 3 through 5 in recent years and ST is where it first shows up.
If they don't change  
Rflairr : 12/30/2013 11:38 am : link
OC, I don't want to hear about those window dressing changes.
As I recall  
RetroJint : 12/30/2013 11:39 am : link
The Giants beat the Niners in the NFC Championship game largely because of 2 forced fumbles on punt returns. Caused by Thomas, an excellent gunner. See what happens when you give a coach something to work with? Now he'll get fired because a team with little or no depth subtracts from even that paltry amount because of injuries. So fire Quinn. Screw it. Next asshole in gets the same results with the same attitude Reese gives specials.
Hear what Westhoff said earlier in the season about Jets' specials? Basically he said that he wouldn't want to go near them this season because the GM didn't give the coach anything to work with.
How talented does a player  
Joe in Cambridge : 12/30/2013 11:42 am : link
need to be to contribute on special teams? Plenty of guys who never amounted to anything as a regular player on offense or defense have been solid special teams players. For instance our assistant special teams coach, Larry Izzo.
coaches  
jbeintherockies : 12/30/2013 11:44 am : link
Coughlin will never retire. He will have to be forced out. I don't think he will ever quit, no matter what the circumstances (except maybe for health reasons).

I think the QB coach and the WR coach should be gone. Hiring your son (34 years old) to coach pro WRs probably pissed a few people off (maybe Nicks). The OL coach was here when the Giants' OL was awesome (2008). It isn't the offensive line coaching that is the problem; it's the players. RB coach Ingram and TE coach Pope will be retained.

Fewell ... I think he is done. The players are calling him out (scheme) and that is not a good sign. I believe Fewell's contract is up, also. The DL coach, LB coach and DB coaches (two of them!) ... I don't know. That will be up to the new DC.

Special teams ... Quinn can't seem to get that unit to perform. Maybe Izzo can change that; although he hasn't as the assistant.

An in-depth look at the pro personnel and college personnel decision makers is in order. Changes are needed in these areas. The changes may be the process followed and/or decision makers and scouts involved.
I don't think any of us  
phil in arizona : 12/30/2013 11:55 am : link
really have the insight to make judgement calls on assistant coaches. That being said, it would look really shitty if Ryan, who has led successful WR units, gets canned and Gilbride Jr. retains his job.

I say put Ryan back at WR coach and have Gilbride Jr. do his internship somewhere else.
Firing assistant coaches?  
gmenrule1986 : 12/30/2013 11:59 am : link
What good coaches will want to come here under a coach who is at the end of his rope? If you are making changes, you have to go all the way.
they've been monitoring status of Sullivan  
JonC : 12/30/2013 12:02 pm : link
I'd wager he's coming back.
Sullivan would be a good get.  
bceagle05 : 12/30/2013 12:07 pm : link
Bring in Spags to replace Fewell and we'll have a nice reunion tour next season.
But again  
mjvm52106 : 12/30/2013 12:07 pm : link
if you argue for Assistants to be fired then you must admit that the HC has some responsibility for their failures.. TC's assistants are basically an extension of him. If they failed then so did he. Why i think this "he deserves to leave on his own" talk is not right:

2004- 6 wins 10 losses 5-3 (first 8 games) 1-7 (second 8) .500 record at home
2005- 11 wins 5 losses 6-2 (first 8 games) 5-3 (second 8) 7-1 home record (shutout in home Wild Card game)
2006- 8 wins 8 losses 6-2 (first 8 games) 2-6 (second 8)3-5 home record (lost Wild Card game)
2007- 10 wins 6 losses 6-2 (first 8 games) 4-4 (second 8) 3-5 home record (Won Super Bowl)
2008- 12 wins 4 losses 7-1 (first 8 games) 5-3 (second 8) 7-1 home record (lost home Div Playoff Game)
2009- 8 wins 8 losses ( 5-3 first 8 games) 3-5 (second 8) 4-4 home record
2010- 10 wins 6 losses (6-2 first 8 games) 4-4 (second 8) 5-3 home record
2011- 9 wins 7 losses (6-2 first 8 games) 3-5 (second 8) 4-4 home record (Won Super Bowl)
2012- 9 wins 7 losses (6-2 first 8 games) 3-5 (second 8) 6-2 home record
2013- 7 wins 9 losses (2-6 first 8 games) 5-3 (second 8) 4-4 home record

.500 or less records second half of the season- 7 times
.500 or less records at home- 6 times
9 or less wins- 6 times
Missing Playoffs 5 times
Playoff games at home - 3 (1-2 record) with 1 shutout loss
5 or more wins 1st half of season 9 times..

So in ten years we have started 5-3 or better 9 times yet 6 times in those ten years we have had 9 wins or less. We have missed the playoffs 5 times even though we were above .500 9 times out of 10. Seven of those times we had 6-2 or better records. Each year is different yet every second half of the season we seem to struggle.

The Giants are 47-33 at home over 10 years. Winning record, yes. BUT, home is where you should be your best. We have won 41 games on the road (1 game on road was actually at home against Saints).

I like TC and appreciate what he has done for the Giants but let's not hand him the keys unconditionally. We won two Super Bowls and probably should have won a 3rd if not for Plaxico's gun incident in 2008. However, this team has faltered numerous times in the second half of seasons and our most recent SB win was almost not even a playoff appearance based on how badly the team played in the second half of the season.

I think its time we look to build for the long term and it requires a coach who will be there long term..
RE: As I recall  
Greg from LI : 12/30/2013 12:07 pm : link
In comment 11422435 RetroJint said:
Quote:
The Giants beat the Niners in the NFC Championship game largely because of 2 forced fumbles on punt returns. Caused by Thomas, an excellent gunner. See what happens when you give a coach something to work with? Now he'll get fired because a team with little or no depth subtracts from even that paltry amount because of injuries. So fire Quinn. Screw it. Next asshole in gets the same results with the same attitude Reese gives specials.
Hear what Westhoff said earlier in the season about Jets' specials? Basically he said that he wouldn't want to go near them this season because the GM didn't give the coach anything to work with.



One of those fumbles happened because Kyle Williams was too stupid to get away from from a bouncing ball, the other was forced by Jacquian Williams, not Devin Thomas. Great post otherwise! Keep on keepin' on with the excuse-making.
As I wrote  
old man : 12/30/2013 12:09 pm : link
in the Schiano thread, Sullivan comes back as QB coach/HC in waiting(if he wants it).
If KG jr gets axed, and KG gets pissed, he can walk out in protest.
....  
BrettNYG10 : 12/30/2013 12:09 pm : link
Quinn has been awful. Him and his unit almost cost us points (and likely the game) in XLII.
I'll bet that's a pretty good 10-year record  
CT Charlie : 12/30/2013 12:14 pm : link
compared to most teams in the NFL. It only looks bad if you're a Pats or Steelers fan, or a Yankees fan from the 90's.
head coach  
MookGiants : 12/30/2013 12:16 pm : link
in waiting plans almost always wind up blowing up in your face.

Making a commitment like that to Sullivan who has no head coaching experience would be incredibly dumb.
We'll have our pick of the litter when TC goes.  
bceagle05 : 12/30/2013 12:20 pm : link
No need to make any promises to anyone. Despite all the gloom and doom right now, it still might be the most attractive head coaching job in the league.
RE: they've been monitoring status of Sullivan  
Danny Kanell : 12/30/2013 12:23 pm : link
In comment 11422536 JonC said:
Quote:
I'd wager he's coming back.


Jon, as OC?
I'd be fine with Sullivan as QBC, but if you're going to make a change  
Riggies : 12/30/2013 12:25 pm : link
at OC (which they're not going to do), going from Gilbride to Sullivan would be sickening.

Change without any actual change is the worst change.
Sullivan would keep the same system  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/30/2013 12:28 pm : link
but there's a chance his situational playcalling and feel for the game is better than KGs. And he might get the play into the huddle before there's 5 seconds on the play clock.


How is he with shotgun draws on 3rd and 9?
DK  
JonC : 12/30/2013 12:56 pm : link
That's on the table.
If Quinn keeps his job  
jlukes : 12/30/2013 12:58 pm : link
I am fully convinced he has compromising pictures of the owners.
And I really wish that people on here could learn the difference  
jlukes : 12/30/2013 12:59 pm : link
between a draw play and a handoff from Shotgun.

Not all handoffs out of shotgun are draws...
If you take the handoff from shotgun  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/30/2013 1:06 pm : link
and run it between guard and center, it's a draw play to me.
the biggest assistant problem  
giantfanboy : 12/30/2013 1:11 pm : link
Kevin Gilbride Jr,

The WR really were bad this year - the WR and Eli not being on the same page
the blame has to be on WR coach

if this guy was name Kevin JONES he would be out the door already
but if you notice this guys name .. nepotism rears it's ugly head

does Gilbride fire his son? does Coughlin make him ?



It probably won't happen  
Montreal Man : 12/30/2013 1:12 pm : link
and don't jump on me for mentioning it, but if we want a good QB coach, call Jim Fassel.

Phil Simms swears by him.
RE: If you take the handoff from shotgun  
BrettNYG10 : 12/30/2013 1:12 pm : link
In comment 11422798 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
and run it between guard and center, it's a draw play to me.


No it's not.
I'd pay real money to see Coughlin have to carry Swinger Jimmy  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/30/2013 1:13 pm : link
on his staff.

This is a debate now?  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/30/2013 1:14 pm : link
Fundamentally, a draw play is a handoff and the RB goes right to the A gap. That's not arguable.

RE: This is a debate now?  
Cam in MO : 12/30/2013 1:18 pm : link
In comment 11422833 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
Fundamentally, a draw play is a handoff and the RB goes right to the A gap. That's not arguable.


Not even close to right. A draw play is essentially play action. Except instead of faking a run, you take a pass and hand it off. This includes the QB holding the ball up and dropping back, as well as the line taking a step back as if to pass block.

You don't know what you're talking about.

RE: This is a debate now?  
BrettNYG10 : 12/30/2013 1:20 pm : link
In comment 11422833 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
Fundamentally, a draw play is a handoff and the RB goes right to the A gap. That's not arguable.


No it's not.

You're wrong.
So if it's not a draw play, then what is it?  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/30/2013 1:21 pm : link
.
John Elway loved Fassel as a QB coach, too  
Greg from LI : 12/30/2013 1:21 pm : link
I'd absolutely take him. Would never happen, of course.
Sounds like a semantics argument to me.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/30/2013 1:22 pm : link
The idea behind a draw play is to attack aggressive, pass-rushing defenses by "drawing" them downfield. This creates larger gaps between defenders and thereby allows the offense to effectively run the ball. Draw plays are often run out of the shotgun formation, but can also be run when the quarterback is under center. These types of draw plays are sometimes referred to as "delayed handoffs". The running back will most often run straight downfield through the "A-Gap" (the space between the center and the offensive guard), although there are more complicated variations.
Also- most of the handoffs from the shotgun that the Giants run  
Cam in MO : 12/30/2013 1:23 pm : link
are designed to go off tackle.

The Giants run draws on occasion, but for the most part when they run out of shotgun it is just a basic off tackle run out of the shotgun formation.

Formation has nothing at all to do with whether a play is a draw or not. As long as the QB and line fake a pass play and the QB hands the ball off, it is a draw regardless of formation or which gap it is designed to go.


It's a dive play  
JonC : 12/30/2013 1:23 pm : link
A draw begins with the OL pass blocking (to create the illusion of a pass play) while the RB holds for a couple beats.
It's a straight running play from the shotgun  
Greg from LI : 12/30/2013 1:23 pm : link
A draw is a misdirection play. You fake the pass to fool the defense and then hand off. The Giants do run those, but they also simply run ordinary handoffs out of the shotgun.
It's not a semantics argument.  
BrettNYG10 : 12/30/2013 1:24 pm : link
There is a huge difference in timing and movement along the line for the two plays.
As in "drawing" the defenders  
Randy in CT : 12/30/2013 1:25 pm : link
away from the play. (I think that's the reason for that usage)
RE: Sounds like a semantics argument to me.  
Cam in MO : 12/30/2013 1:25 pm : link
In comment 11422868 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
The idea behind a draw play is to attack aggressive, pass-rushing defenses by "drawing" them downfield. This creates larger gaps between defenders and thereby allows the offense to effectively run the ball. Draw plays are often run out of the shotgun formation, but can also be run when the quarterback is under center. These types of draw plays are sometimes referred to as "delayed handoffs". The running back will most often run straight downfield through the "A-Gap" (the space between the center and the offensive guard), although there are more complicated variations.


Upfield, not downfield. That's semantics.

As you pointed out, the idea is to draw the defense into the backfield so that the back can run past them. This is done with the play fake. It isn't semantics. Without the play fake you aren't drawing anyone anywhere.
silly though it may be, Wikipedia explains it  
Greg from LI : 12/30/2013 1:27 pm : link
Quote:
Offensive movement during a draw play

The quarterback drops back to pass, just long enough to get the pass rush to come upfield.

The offensive linemen momentarily show pass block, but also try to push the defenders to the outside, creating a crease in the middle.

The running back momentarily fakes as if he is staying in to help pass protect, then takes the hand-off from the quarterback and heads downfield through the crease created by the linemen.

The receivers run clear-out routes downfield in order to take the defensive backs out of the play.


Without those elements, it's not a draw regardless of being run from the shotgun.
It's the illusion of a pass play  
JonC : 12/30/2013 1:30 pm : link
the OL is your key, but if they show pass pro you think it's a pass play and react accordingly.

On run plays, the OL is bursting forward out of their stances.
a draw  
TexasGmenFan : 12/30/2013 1:31 pm : link
is a delayed handoff...in the most simplistic terms...never realized this was complicated or a point of contention.

think of it as a play-action run play.
...  
BrettNYG10 : 12/30/2013 1:31 pm : link
"On run plays, the OL is bursting forward out of their stances."

Except on our running plays...

#fixtheoline
...  
SamTheTram : 12/30/2013 1:32 pm : link
Derek Ward used to take those "shotgun draws" 4-6 yards a clip when we had a good oline
So a shotgun handoff between G and C is a dive  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/30/2013 1:32 pm : link
A Shotgun handoff between G and C with play action is a Draw. Okay.
While coaching staff changes do seem to be needed,  
Exit 172 : 12/30/2013 1:34 pm : link
I'm not sure what any offensive coach will be able to do without almost an all-new offensive line, outside of Pugh. Beatty had a terrible year and now has a fractured leg. Snee and Diehl are finished. Baas and Cordle need to go. Boothe is merely OK. Brewer is just a guy. Mosley and the others are barely worth mentioning.

This may be unreasonable, but if our starting o-line doesn't have at least three new names on it in September 2014, we could be in some pretty big trouble. And that means our 1st-round pick will have to be an o-lineman who starts Day One, and we'll probably have to bring in two free agent who are starting caliber.

And then a blocking tight end who has some value as a receiver is a must, as well. And we don't have that one the roster, either.

A LOT of work to be done on the offensive line alone...
RE: So a shotgun handoff between G and C is a dive  
Cam in MO : 12/30/2013 1:34 pm : link
In comment 11422922 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
A Shotgun handoff between G and C with play action is a Draw. Okay.


Yep. Basically.
would they really bring Sullivan back at QBC?  
nyynyg : 12/30/2013 1:35 pm : link
wonder if KG is thanked for his service and Sullivan is given his shot at OC so they can get a good read as to whether he is HC material. You don't give the QBC head coaching in waiting or anything, responsibilities are no where near big enough...
and I am in the "why bother" camp  
nyynyg : 12/30/2013 1:36 pm : link
if they are keeping coordinators and making asst coach changes, big freaking deal.
....  
SamTheTram : 12/30/2013 1:37 pm : link
I vote for keeping the current staff intact (At least the big 3) and see if things can be improved with a roster turnover.

Giants ranked 28th in total offense this season. Dreadful. Tampa Bay ranked 32nd. Dead last. We want to replace Gilbride with the architect behind that mess? I know the Buc's roster was shitty, but was the Giants.
So now were are bringing in the OC  
drkenneth : 12/30/2013 1:40 pm : link
from one of the worst offenses in the NFL? One that was worse than ours?
Unless TC goes, the offense will remain the same.  
Victor in CT : 12/30/2013 1:44 pm : link
I really think the Giants should reach out to gauge O'Brien's interest
i'm not for Sullivan at all  
nyynyg : 12/30/2013 1:47 pm : link
i was just stating that I don't see why we bring him back only as QBC unless he needs to reset his coaching status after the TB disaster. He was good for Eli though, maybe he would come back as QBC.

I want wholesale changes and good ones, but I don't think we are going to get them. Same old is what I think it will be, maybe a minor assistant change and lip service.
A few thoughts  
Matt M. : 12/30/2013 1:58 pm : link
1) Why would Sullivan come back as a QB coach?

2) I want Ryan removed as QB coach, but wouldn't opposed to him moving back to WR coach.

3) Gilbride Jr. should be gone.

4) How can you make an argument for Quinn based solely on the 2 fumbles in the SF NFC Championship game? Especially, when one was a fluke? He has a much longer history of horrendous ST. This includes poor Pr, poor KR, poor punt coverage, poor kick coverage, poor PK, and poor P. Some of the last 2 has to do with the personnel (Dodge, for example), but some is poor coaching.

5) As with #4, I can't defend Fewell based on this year when overall i think his defenses sucked, and that includes the SB year. For the most part, if Tuck or JPP didn't make individual plays, this D got no pressure for the better part of his tenure. For the most part, they played the run terribly. For the most part, the secondary has been problematic, with players repeatedly citing communication problems and unclear assignments. For the most part, the secondary has not done a good job playing the ball. For the most part, we have taken CBs drafted specifically for their press and man coverage skills and tried to fit them into a soft cover 2 zone. For the most part, we can't run a blitz that gets to the QB. I think Fewell got bailed out a lot by the DT acquisitions and Beason this year. I don't want to take a chance that he can improve this D.
As for Gilbride Sr.  
Matt M. : 12/30/2013 2:05 pm : link
I can go either way. On one hand, he has led the most prolific offensive era in Giants history. However, some of that has to do with the rules of today's game.

On the other hand, we repeatedly have seen WRs and/or the QB making the wrong reads on the many option routes in the route tree, plays coming in to the huddle too late (or it takes too long to call the plays in the huddle), and a lack of adjustment in games.

When everything was working right, this big play offense thrived. However, the last 2 years we have seen poor OL play, mediocre running backs, and injured WRs hold back the offense. Part of the failure is the over-reliance on almost entirely deep, long developing pass plays. how many times have wee seen all our receivers running 15+ yards down field and/or double moves when we need 5-10 yards for a first? Also, this over-reliance on the deep ball, in my opinion, is a big reason the offense seems to struggle in the red zone.
I would be pretty stunned  
santacruzom : 12/30/2013 2:13 pm : link
if any major assistant changes are announced today, next week, next month, or any time before next season begins. It seems the coaching staff is stellar at presenting their case to management, which is likely something like this: Under the right circumstances and with healthy personnel, we can win 9-10 games a year and then make noise in the playoffs.
Quinn isn't going anywhere  
Bramton1 : 12/30/2013 2:23 pm : link
Wouldn't he had been canned by now? The guy either has dirt on someone, or is good buddies with someone in the front office.
santacruz  
Matt M. : 12/30/2013 2:27 pm : link
That may have been the case in the past, but Mara seems to be a lot less patient right now.
sound strategy  
area junc : 12/30/2013 2:28 pm : link
i don't understand why people have such a problem with the shotgun hand-off. (the giants have a few versions but its mainly an inside trap, not a draw)

when the Giants spread the field and the D puts 6 in the box the Giants are going to audible to a hand-off because you've got 6 blockers blocking 6 men and it should be easy yards

it doesn't matter if the D knows it's coming. It's a numbers game. i personally have zero problem with it
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