One guy just asked Mike (who I'm a long time fan of and trust) if anything was happening with the Giants. He responded by saying not yet, but there will be. Mentioned assistants will be fired and new ones hired. Any guess who/what positions?
an OC with the title of Assistant Head Coach? I suspect if TC stays this is his last year! Personally I think Giants should move on now. Its time to rebuild and even Eli is one that is on the downside of things based on the way he has played the last two years.
Bring in a new coach and start building now. Wait a year and we have Reeves all over again.
if Coughlin requests an extension even just for one year and what happens if the Giants decide not to go that route? Would he just decide to retire then? I wonder if Coughlin is waiting to see how the Giants approach him about changes, etc.
I think Fewell is iffy to be brought back even despite the back half of the season. You can't ignore the fact that twice now Fewell has had to be called out by the players for his scheme/complexity. It sounds like Gilbride will survive, but I don't see how Sean Ryan/Quinn can survive. Their areas of responsibility/control were just absolutely abysmal this year.
Flaherty deserves a reprieve considering his body of work here and the fact that he got handed a bunch of spoiled meat yet again by Reese/Coughlin and asked to turn it into filet mignon.
Maybe, just maybe, Quinn, but his special teams have been crap for most of his tenure and he's never been in danger before.
True, but poor STs are a direct result of poor middle and lower round drafts. That is where you get those plugger types. The Giants have failed miserably in rounds 3 through 5 in recent years and ST is where it first shows up.
The Giants beat the Niners in the NFC Championship game largely because of 2 forced fumbles on punt returns. Caused by Thomas, an excellent gunner. See what happens when you give a coach something to work with? Now he'll get fired because a team with little or no depth subtracts from even that paltry amount because of injuries. So fire Quinn. Screw it. Next asshole in gets the same results with the same attitude Reese gives specials.
Hear what Westhoff said earlier in the season about Jets' specials? Basically he said that he wouldn't want to go near them this season because the GM didn't give the coach anything to work with.
need to be to contribute on special teams? Plenty of guys who never amounted to anything as a regular player on offense or defense have been solid special teams players. For instance our assistant special teams coach, Larry Izzo.
Coughlin will never retire. He will have to be forced out. I don't think he will ever quit, no matter what the circumstances (except maybe for health reasons).
I think the QB coach and the WR coach should be gone. Hiring your son (34 years old) to coach pro WRs probably pissed a few people off (maybe Nicks). The OL coach was here when the Giants' OL was awesome (2008). It isn't the offensive line coaching that is the problem; it's the players. RB coach Ingram and TE coach Pope will be retained.
Fewell ... I think he is done. The players are calling him out (scheme) and that is not a good sign. I believe Fewell's contract is up, also. The DL coach, LB coach and DB coaches (two of them!) ... I don't know. That will be up to the new DC.
Special teams ... Quinn can't seem to get that unit to perform. Maybe Izzo can change that; although he hasn't as the assistant.
An in-depth look at the pro personnel and college personnel decision makers is in order. Changes are needed in these areas. The changes may be the process followed and/or decision makers and scouts involved.
really have the insight to make judgement calls on assistant coaches. That being said, it would look really shitty if Ryan, who has led successful WR units, gets canned and Gilbride Jr. retains his job.
I say put Ryan back at WR coach and have Gilbride Jr. do his internship somewhere else.
if you argue for Assistants to be fired then you must admit that the HC has some responsibility for their failures.. TC's assistants are basically an extension of him. If they failed then so did he. Why i think this "he deserves to leave on his own" talk is not right:
2004- 6 wins 10 losses 5-3 (first 8 games) 1-7 (second 8) .500 record at home
2005- 11 wins 5 losses 6-2 (first 8 games) 5-3 (second 8) 7-1 home record (shutout in home Wild Card game)
2006- 8 wins 8 losses 6-2 (first 8 games) 2-6 (second 8)3-5 home record (lost Wild Card game)
2007- 10 wins 6 losses 6-2 (first 8 games) 4-4 (second 8) 3-5 home record (Won Super Bowl)
2008- 12 wins 4 losses 7-1 (first 8 games) 5-3 (second 8) 7-1 home record (lost home Div Playoff Game)
2009- 8 wins 8 losses ( 5-3 first 8 games) 3-5 (second 8) 4-4 home record
2010- 10 wins 6 losses (6-2 first 8 games) 4-4 (second 8) 5-3 home record
2011- 9 wins 7 losses (6-2 first 8 games) 3-5 (second 8) 4-4 home record (Won Super Bowl)
2012- 9 wins 7 losses (6-2 first 8 games) 3-5 (second 8) 6-2 home record
2013- 7 wins 9 losses (2-6 first 8 games) 5-3 (second 8) 4-4 home record
.500 or less records second half of the season- 7 times
.500 or less records at home- 6 times
9 or less wins- 6 times
Missing Playoffs 5 times
Playoff games at home - 3 (1-2 record) with 1 shutout loss
5 or more wins 1st half of season 9 times..
So in ten years we have started 5-3 or better 9 times yet 6 times in those ten years we have had 9 wins or less. We have missed the playoffs 5 times even though we were above .500 9 times out of 10. Seven of those times we had 6-2 or better records. Each year is different yet every second half of the season we seem to struggle.
The Giants are 47-33 at home over 10 years. Winning record, yes. BUT, home is where you should be your best. We have won 41 games on the road (1 game on road was actually at home against Saints).
I like TC and appreciate what he has done for the Giants but let's not hand him the keys unconditionally. We won two Super Bowls and probably should have won a 3rd if not for Plaxico's gun incident in 2008. However, this team has faltered numerous times in the second half of seasons and our most recent SB win was almost not even a playoff appearance based on how badly the team played in the second half of the season.
I think its time we look to build for the long term and it requires a coach who will be there long term..
The Giants beat the Niners in the NFC Championship game largely because of 2 forced fumbles on punt returns. Caused by Thomas, an excellent gunner. See what happens when you give a coach something to work with? Now he'll get fired because a team with little or no depth subtracts from even that paltry amount because of injuries. So fire Quinn. Screw it. Next asshole in gets the same results with the same attitude Reese gives specials.
Hear what Westhoff said earlier in the season about Jets' specials? Basically he said that he wouldn't want to go near them this season because the GM didn't give the coach anything to work with.
One of those fumbles happened because Kyle Williams was too stupid to get away from from a bouncing ball, the other was forced by Jacquian Williams, not Devin Thomas. Great post otherwise! Keep on keepin' on with the excuse-making.
in the Schiano thread, Sullivan comes back as QB coach/HC in waiting(if he wants it).
If KG jr gets axed, and KG gets pissed, he can walk out in protest.
No need to make any promises to anyone. Despite all the gloom and doom right now, it still might be the most attractive head coaching job in the league.
but there's a chance his situational playcalling and feel for the game is better than KGs. And he might get the play into the huddle before there's 5 seconds on the play clock.
Fundamentally, a draw play is a handoff and the RB goes right to the A gap. That's not arguable.
Not even close to right. A draw play is essentially play action. Except instead of faking a run, you take a pass and hand it off. This includes the QB holding the ball up and dropping back, as well as the line taking a step back as if to pass block.
The idea behind a draw play is to attack aggressive, pass-rushing defenses by "drawing" them downfield. This creates larger gaps between defenders and thereby allows the offense to effectively run the ball. Draw plays are often run out of the shotgun formation, but can also be run when the quarterback is under center. These types of draw plays are sometimes referred to as "delayed handoffs". The running back will most often run straight downfield through the "A-Gap" (the space between the center and the offensive guard), although there are more complicated variations.
Also- most of the handoffs from the shotgun that the Giants run
The Giants run draws on occasion, but for the most part when they run out of shotgun it is just a basic off tackle run out of the shotgun formation.
Formation has nothing at all to do with whether a play is a draw or not. As long as the QB and line fake a pass play and the QB hands the ball off, it is a draw regardless of formation or which gap it is designed to go.
A draw is a misdirection play. You fake the pass to fool the defense and then hand off. The Giants do run those, but they also simply run ordinary handoffs out of the shotgun.
The idea behind a draw play is to attack aggressive, pass-rushing defenses by "drawing" them downfield. This creates larger gaps between defenders and thereby allows the offense to effectively run the ball. Draw plays are often run out of the shotgun formation, but can also be run when the quarterback is under center. These types of draw plays are sometimes referred to as "delayed handoffs". The running back will most often run straight downfield through the "A-Gap" (the space between the center and the offensive guard), although there are more complicated variations.
Upfield, not downfield. That's semantics.
As you pointed out, the idea is to draw the defense into the backfield so that the back can run past them. This is done with the play fake. It isn't semantics. Without the play fake you aren't drawing anyone anywhere.
The quarterback drops back to pass, just long enough to get the pass rush to come upfield.
The offensive linemen momentarily show pass block, but also try to push the defenders to the outside, creating a crease in the middle.
The running back momentarily fakes as if he is staying in to help pass protect, then takes the hand-off from the quarterback and heads downfield through the crease created by the linemen.
The receivers run clear-out routes downfield in order to take the defensive backs out of the play.
Without those elements, it's not a draw regardless of being run from the shotgun.
I'm not sure what any offensive coach will be able to do without almost an all-new offensive line, outside of Pugh. Beatty had a terrible year and now has a fractured leg. Snee and Diehl are finished. Baas and Cordle need to go. Boothe is merely OK. Brewer is just a guy. Mosley and the others are barely worth mentioning.
This may be unreasonable, but if our starting o-line doesn't have at least three new names on it in September 2014, we could be in some pretty big trouble. And that means our 1st-round pick will have to be an o-lineman who starts Day One, and we'll probably have to bring in two free agent who are starting caliber.
And then a blocking tight end who has some value as a receiver is a must, as well. And we don't have that one the roster, either.
A LOT of work to be done on the offensive line alone...
RE: So a shotgun handoff between G and C is a dive
wonder if KG is thanked for his service and Sullivan is given his shot at OC so they can get a good read as to whether he is HC material. You don't give the QBC head coaching in waiting or anything, responsibilities are no where near big enough...
I vote for keeping the current staff intact (At least the big 3) and see if things can be improved with a roster turnover.
Giants ranked 28th in total offense this season. Dreadful. Tampa Bay ranked 32nd. Dead last. We want to replace Gilbride with the architect behind that mess? I know the Buc's roster was shitty, but was the Giants.
i was just stating that I don't see why we bring him back only as QBC unless he needs to reset his coaching status after the TB disaster. He was good for Eli though, maybe he would come back as QBC.
I want wholesale changes and good ones, but I don't think we are going to get them. Same old is what I think it will be, maybe a minor assistant change and lip service.
2) I want Ryan removed as QB coach, but wouldn't opposed to him moving back to WR coach.
3) Gilbride Jr. should be gone.
4) How can you make an argument for Quinn based solely on the 2 fumbles in the SF NFC Championship game? Especially, when one was a fluke? He has a much longer history of horrendous ST. This includes poor Pr, poor KR, poor punt coverage, poor kick coverage, poor PK, and poor P. Some of the last 2 has to do with the personnel (Dodge, for example), but some is poor coaching.
5) As with #4, I can't defend Fewell based on this year when overall i think his defenses sucked, and that includes the SB year. For the most part, if Tuck or JPP didn't make individual plays, this D got no pressure for the better part of his tenure. For the most part, they played the run terribly. For the most part, the secondary has been problematic, with players repeatedly citing communication problems and unclear assignments. For the most part, the secondary has not done a good job playing the ball. For the most part, we have taken CBs drafted specifically for their press and man coverage skills and tried to fit them into a soft cover 2 zone. For the most part, we can't run a blitz that gets to the QB. I think Fewell got bailed out a lot by the DT acquisitions and Beason this year. I don't want to take a chance that he can improve this D.
I can go either way. On one hand, he has led the most prolific offensive era in Giants history. However, some of that has to do with the rules of today's game.
On the other hand, we repeatedly have seen WRs and/or the QB making the wrong reads on the many option routes in the route tree, plays coming in to the huddle too late (or it takes too long to call the plays in the huddle), and a lack of adjustment in games.
When everything was working right, this big play offense thrived. However, the last 2 years we have seen poor OL play, mediocre running backs, and injured WRs hold back the offense. Part of the failure is the over-reliance on almost entirely deep, long developing pass plays. how many times have wee seen all our receivers running 15+ yards down field and/or double moves when we need 5-10 yards for a first? Also, this over-reliance on the deep ball, in my opinion, is a big reason the offense seems to struggle in the red zone.
if any major assistant changes are announced today, next week, next month, or any time before next season begins. It seems the coaching staff is stellar at presenting their case to management, which is likely something like this: Under the right circumstances and with healthy personnel, we can win 9-10 games a year and then make noise in the playoffs.
i don't understand why people have such a problem with the shotgun hand-off. (the giants have a few versions but its mainly an inside trap, not a draw)
when the Giants spread the field and the D puts 6 in the box the Giants are going to audible to a hand-off because you've got 6 blockers blocking 6 men and it should be easy yards
it doesn't matter if the D knows it's coming. It's a numbers game. i personally have zero problem with it
QB coach
LB Coach?
Bring in a new coach and start building now. Wait a year and we have Reeves all over again.
And that's if Tom wants to come back, we assume he does but he hasn't said so yet
Everyone else returns.
I think Fewell is iffy to be brought back even despite the back half of the season. You can't ignore the fact that twice now Fewell has had to be called out by the players for his scheme/complexity. It sounds like Gilbride will survive, but I don't see how Sean Ryan/Quinn can survive. Their areas of responsibility/control were just absolutely abysmal this year.
Flaherty deserves a reprieve considering his body of work here and the fact that he got handed a bunch of spoiled meat yet again by Reese/Coughlin and asked to turn it into filet mignon.
True, but poor STs are a direct result of poor middle and lower round drafts. That is where you get those plugger types. The Giants have failed miserably in rounds 3 through 5 in recent years and ST is where it first shows up.
Hear what Westhoff said earlier in the season about Jets' specials? Basically he said that he wouldn't want to go near them this season because the GM didn't give the coach anything to work with.
I think the QB coach and the WR coach should be gone. Hiring your son (34 years old) to coach pro WRs probably pissed a few people off (maybe Nicks). The OL coach was here when the Giants' OL was awesome (2008). It isn't the offensive line coaching that is the problem; it's the players. RB coach Ingram and TE coach Pope will be retained.
Fewell ... I think he is done. The players are calling him out (scheme) and that is not a good sign. I believe Fewell's contract is up, also. The DL coach, LB coach and DB coaches (two of them!) ... I don't know. That will be up to the new DC.
Special teams ... Quinn can't seem to get that unit to perform. Maybe Izzo can change that; although he hasn't as the assistant.
An in-depth look at the pro personnel and college personnel decision makers is in order. Changes are needed in these areas. The changes may be the process followed and/or decision makers and scouts involved.
I say put Ryan back at WR coach and have Gilbride Jr. do his internship somewhere else.
2004- 6 wins 10 losses 5-3 (first 8 games) 1-7 (second 8) .500 record at home
2005- 11 wins 5 losses 6-2 (first 8 games) 5-3 (second 8) 7-1 home record (shutout in home Wild Card game)
2006- 8 wins 8 losses 6-2 (first 8 games) 2-6 (second 8)3-5 home record (lost Wild Card game)
2007- 10 wins 6 losses 6-2 (first 8 games) 4-4 (second 8) 3-5 home record (Won Super Bowl)
2008- 12 wins 4 losses 7-1 (first 8 games) 5-3 (second 8) 7-1 home record (lost home Div Playoff Game)
2009- 8 wins 8 losses ( 5-3 first 8 games) 3-5 (second 8) 4-4 home record
2010- 10 wins 6 losses (6-2 first 8 games) 4-4 (second 8) 5-3 home record
2011- 9 wins 7 losses (6-2 first 8 games) 3-5 (second 8) 4-4 home record (Won Super Bowl)
2012- 9 wins 7 losses (6-2 first 8 games) 3-5 (second 8) 6-2 home record
2013- 7 wins 9 losses (2-6 first 8 games) 5-3 (second 8) 4-4 home record
.500 or less records second half of the season- 7 times
.500 or less records at home- 6 times
9 or less wins- 6 times
Missing Playoffs 5 times
Playoff games at home - 3 (1-2 record) with 1 shutout loss
5 or more wins 1st half of season 9 times..
So in ten years we have started 5-3 or better 9 times yet 6 times in those ten years we have had 9 wins or less. We have missed the playoffs 5 times even though we were above .500 9 times out of 10. Seven of those times we had 6-2 or better records. Each year is different yet every second half of the season we seem to struggle.
The Giants are 47-33 at home over 10 years. Winning record, yes. BUT, home is where you should be your best. We have won 41 games on the road (1 game on road was actually at home against Saints).
I like TC and appreciate what he has done for the Giants but let's not hand him the keys unconditionally. We won two Super Bowls and probably should have won a 3rd if not for Plaxico's gun incident in 2008. However, this team has faltered numerous times in the second half of seasons and our most recent SB win was almost not even a playoff appearance based on how badly the team played in the second half of the season.
I think its time we look to build for the long term and it requires a coach who will be there long term..
Hear what Westhoff said earlier in the season about Jets' specials? Basically he said that he wouldn't want to go near them this season because the GM didn't give the coach anything to work with.
One of those fumbles happened because Kyle Williams was too stupid to get away from from a bouncing ball, the other was forced by Jacquian Williams, not Devin Thomas. Great post otherwise! Keep on keepin' on with the excuse-making.
If KG jr gets axed, and KG gets pissed, he can walk out in protest.
Making a commitment like that to Sullivan who has no head coaching experience would be incredibly dumb.
Jon, as OC?
Change without any actual change is the worst change.
How is he with shotgun draws on 3rd and 9?
Not all handoffs out of shotgun are draws...
The WR really were bad this year - the WR and Eli not being on the same page
the blame has to be on WR coach
if this guy was name Kevin JONES he would be out the door already
but if you notice this guys name .. nepotism rears it's ugly head
does Gilbride fire his son? does Coughlin make him ?
Phil Simms swears by him.
No it's not.
Not even close to right. A draw play is essentially play action. Except instead of faking a run, you take a pass and hand it off. This includes the QB holding the ball up and dropping back, as well as the line taking a step back as if to pass block.
You don't know what you're talking about.
No it's not.
You're wrong.
The Giants run draws on occasion, but for the most part when they run out of shotgun it is just a basic off tackle run out of the shotgun formation.
Formation has nothing at all to do with whether a play is a draw or not. As long as the QB and line fake a pass play and the QB hands the ball off, it is a draw regardless of formation or which gap it is designed to go.
Upfield, not downfield. That's semantics.
As you pointed out, the idea is to draw the defense into the backfield so that the back can run past them. This is done with the play fake. It isn't semantics. Without the play fake you aren't drawing anyone anywhere.
The quarterback drops back to pass, just long enough to get the pass rush to come upfield.
The offensive linemen momentarily show pass block, but also try to push the defenders to the outside, creating a crease in the middle.
The running back momentarily fakes as if he is staying in to help pass protect, then takes the hand-off from the quarterback and heads downfield through the crease created by the linemen.
The receivers run clear-out routes downfield in order to take the defensive backs out of the play.
Without those elements, it's not a draw regardless of being run from the shotgun.
On run plays, the OL is bursting forward out of their stances.
think of it as a play-action run play.
Except on our running plays...
#fixtheoline
This may be unreasonable, but if our starting o-line doesn't have at least three new names on it in September 2014, we could be in some pretty big trouble. And that means our 1st-round pick will have to be an o-lineman who starts Day One, and we'll probably have to bring in two free agent who are starting caliber.
And then a blocking tight end who has some value as a receiver is a must, as well. And we don't have that one the roster, either.
A LOT of work to be done on the offensive line alone...
Yep. Basically.
Giants ranked 28th in total offense this season. Dreadful. Tampa Bay ranked 32nd. Dead last. We want to replace Gilbride with the architect behind that mess? I know the Buc's roster was shitty, but was the Giants.
I want wholesale changes and good ones, but I don't think we are going to get them. Same old is what I think it will be, maybe a minor assistant change and lip service.
2) I want Ryan removed as QB coach, but wouldn't opposed to him moving back to WR coach.
3) Gilbride Jr. should be gone.
4) How can you make an argument for Quinn based solely on the 2 fumbles in the SF NFC Championship game? Especially, when one was a fluke? He has a much longer history of horrendous ST. This includes poor Pr, poor KR, poor punt coverage, poor kick coverage, poor PK, and poor P. Some of the last 2 has to do with the personnel (Dodge, for example), but some is poor coaching.
5) As with #4, I can't defend Fewell based on this year when overall i think his defenses sucked, and that includes the SB year. For the most part, if Tuck or JPP didn't make individual plays, this D got no pressure for the better part of his tenure. For the most part, they played the run terribly. For the most part, the secondary has been problematic, with players repeatedly citing communication problems and unclear assignments. For the most part, the secondary has not done a good job playing the ball. For the most part, we have taken CBs drafted specifically for their press and man coverage skills and tried to fit them into a soft cover 2 zone. For the most part, we can't run a blitz that gets to the QB. I think Fewell got bailed out a lot by the DT acquisitions and Beason this year. I don't want to take a chance that he can improve this D.
On the other hand, we repeatedly have seen WRs and/or the QB making the wrong reads on the many option routes in the route tree, plays coming in to the huddle too late (or it takes too long to call the plays in the huddle), and a lack of adjustment in games.
When everything was working right, this big play offense thrived. However, the last 2 years we have seen poor OL play, mediocre running backs, and injured WRs hold back the offense. Part of the failure is the over-reliance on almost entirely deep, long developing pass plays. how many times have wee seen all our receivers running 15+ yards down field and/or double moves when we need 5-10 yards for a first? Also, this over-reliance on the deep ball, in my opinion, is a big reason the offense seems to struggle in the red zone.
when the Giants spread the field and the D puts 6 in the box the Giants are going to audible to a hand-off because you've got 6 blockers blocking 6 men and it should be easy yards
it doesn't matter if the D knows it's coming. It's a numbers game. i personally have zero problem with it