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Mara Comment -- "Offense is broken right now and...

Dannyc58 : 12/30/2013 2:03 pm
we need to fix that."

that personnel or philosophy? Interesting quote.
.  
Jints in Carolina : 12/30/2013 2:04 pm : link
Kimberly Jones ‏@KimJonesSports 59s
John Mara: Wants Tom Coughlin back. "I think our offense is broken, & we need to fix that. …We can't go into next season w/same personnel."
que the  
UConn4523 : 12/30/2013 2:05 pm : link
"stop talking and do it" crowd.
"Why did it take 3 years to find out Jernigan can play"  
Dannyc58 : 12/30/2013 2:05 pm : link
another quote. Yikes.
It makes me think  
Phil from WNY : 12/30/2013 2:05 pm : link
that Gilbride is out and that they want TC back without Gilbride. Maybe it does hinge on Sullivan taking the OC job.
.  
Jints in Carolina : 12/30/2013 2:05 pm : link
Patricia Traina ‏@Patricia_Traina 3m
He also said they need better production from the draft picks.
.  
Jints in Carolina : 12/30/2013 2:06 pm : link
Ralph Vacchiano ‏@RVacchianoNYDN 3m
Mara said "We obviously over-valued some people" and "We haven't gotten production out of certain draft spots."
Mara said coaching staff changes will be discussed.  
jeff57 : 12/30/2013 2:07 pm : link
"I have my opinion on that."
You mean another  
Rflairr : 12/30/2013 2:07 pm : link
Shotgun draw won't fix anything?
RE: Jernigan  
Dannyc58 : 12/30/2013 2:07 pm : link
"sometimes you have to put young players in the game and give them a chance."

(paraphrasing)
Say hello to another  
phil fromphilly : 12/30/2013 2:07 pm : link
7-9 to 9-7 year in 2014. The mediocrity ship cruises onward!!

John Mara needs to grow a set and lose that sentimental bullshit. Keeping Coughlin and his crew is a mistake. The time is right for a change. 9 losses to opponents with a winning record says it all.
RE: It makes me think  
BrettNYG10 : 12/30/2013 2:08 pm : link
In comment 11423052 Phil from WNY said:
Quote:
that Gilbride is out and that they want TC back without Gilbride. Maybe it does hinge on Sullivan taking the OC job.


I really don't understand what Sullivan offers as OC other than familiarity, especially when other quality candidates are out there.
Gilbride  
bigfrank612 : 12/30/2013 2:08 pm : link
Is gone in my opinion. Mara is giving it to the offensive coaches right now. And I love this. Tell it how it is
personnel  
JonC : 12/30/2013 2:08 pm : link
and potentially the driver ... philosophy remains as long as TC does.
Enough with Sullivan!  
jeff57 : 12/30/2013 2:08 pm : link
Tampa's offense was 32 out of 32.
uuuuggghhh  
Jints in Carolina : 12/30/2013 2:08 pm : link
Patricia Traina ‏@Patricia_Traina 3m
Mara believes they have as good a group of scouts as anyone.
Yes  
chrispisano66 : 12/30/2013 2:08 pm : link
We can't go into next season with most of the same personnel or with ANY of the same beliefs. But how are we going to expect a 67 year old man who has been in football longer than most of us have been alive to make significant changes?
Wilson and Robindon  
Rflairr : 12/30/2013 2:09 pm : link
Seems to be what that's aimed at
So far reading between the lines  
Bobby Humphrey's Earpad : 12/30/2013 2:09 pm : link
It's that management wants TC to come back, but he has to accept that Gilbride is gone. If he refuses to do that, they'll clean house.
If we do get rid of KG  
bradshaw44 : 12/30/2013 2:09 pm : link
I want someone with a proven track record. No Bill Sheridans or Mike Sullivans. I'm talking Norv Turners etc...
If or When Gilbride is fired  
Chef : 12/30/2013 2:09 pm : link
I wonder what the appreciation thread will look like..
Replacing Gilbride  
mrvax : 12/30/2013 2:09 pm : link
with Sullivan is just like having Gilbride back, no?
Sullivan should be considered  
phil fromphilly : 12/30/2013 2:09 pm : link
for the QB coach job. Even after all these years Eli still needs one to help him work through his mistakes.
^ exactly  
NYG007 : 12/30/2013 2:10 pm : link
we need an entirely new offensive system, 3 new lineman, 2 Tight Ends, a RB or 2. And Mario Manningham back (if healthy) plus draft a WR by rd 3
Ooof that quote about Jernigan is damning  
jcn56 : 12/30/2013 2:10 pm : link
Granted, I wouldn't have made much out of the fact that JJ looked like Cruz against a shitty Redskins D, but it's the broader point of not getting fresh bodies out there.
Exact quote from earlier  
Dannyc58 : 12/30/2013 2:10 pm : link
Quote:
Mara: "I think our offense is broken right now and we need to fix that." He also backed Jerry Reese.

Link - ( New Window )
Sounds like Mara may force a coordinator change.  
arcarsenal : 12/30/2013 2:10 pm : link
I'd be thrilled if that were the case.
.  
Jints in Carolina : 12/30/2013 2:10 pm : link
Paul Schwartz ‏@NYPost_Schwartz 50s
John Mara says coaching staff evaluations will take place later this week but more he talks more it sounds as if Kevin Gilbride is gone.#nyg
RE: If we do get rid of KG  
dpassen1 : 12/30/2013 2:11 pm : link
In comment 11423081 bradshaw44 said:
Quote:
I want someone with a proven track record. No Bill Sheridans or Mike Sullivans. I'm talking Norv Turners etc...

Agreed. It would be awesome to see what Eli would look like in Norv's offense.
RE: Replacing Gilbride  
jeff57 : 12/30/2013 2:11 pm : link
In comment 11423084 mrvax said:
Quote:
with Sullivan is just like having Gilbride back, no?


I'd rather keep Gilbride than hire Sullivan.
Sounds like  
phil fromphilly : 12/30/2013 2:11 pm : link
Manningham might be done. I would take him on a no risk minimum deal with incentives for playing time / stats and that's it.
.  
Jints in Carolina : 12/30/2013 2:11 pm : link
Patricia Traina ‏@Patricia_Traina 1m
Mara: "the fans deserve better."
...  
dcgiantsfan : 12/30/2013 2:12 pm : link
ai would love to be a fly on the wall when TC meets with JR and ownership.

Mara: The offense is broken. Eli's throwing INTs left and right, we can't run the ball, WRs are way out of sync with Eli...
TC interrupting: Its his fault (pointing at JR)! Look at the Oline he gave me to work with, a TE thats short, slow and can't block to go along with the anti-JPP of TEs!
JR: Whats your excuse for that awful start on defense. If it werent for my brilliant trade to get Beason, we'd be looking a lot worse!

Ok I'm done :-)
RE: .  
BrettNYG10 : 12/30/2013 2:12 pm : link
In comment 11423108 Jints in Carolina said:
Quote:
Patricia Traina ‏@Patricia_Traina 1m
Mara: "the fans deserve better."


Clearly not a reader of BBI.
Replacing Gilbride  
chrispisano66 : 12/30/2013 2:13 pm : link
sounds good, but my question is what good will that do if TC's fingerprints have been all over this offense to begin with?
it's  
area junc : 12/30/2013 2:13 pm : link
one of those things where if u have to replace a lot of personnel, it makes it a great time to switch systems if there's a problem
RE: RE: If we do get rid of KG  
bradshaw44 : 12/30/2013 2:14 pm : link
In comment 11423101 dpassen1 said:
Quote:
Agreed. It would be awesome to see what Eli would look like in Norv's offense.


I've always wondered what Eli could do with a much better OC as well. Someone that has produced in multiple places as an OC. I'll be excited to see this if/when it happens.
.  
Jints in Carolina : 12/30/2013 2:14 pm : link
Mike Garafolo ‏@MikeGarafolo 1m
Wonder no more. Yes. RT @Eric_Edholm: Sullivan seen as fall guy in TB, but wonder if he'd be a candidate for NYG OC if Gilbride isn't back
Mara's bringing it, nice.  
bceagle05 : 12/30/2013 2:14 pm : link
That Jernigan quote is spot on.
...  
BrettNYG10 : 12/30/2013 2:15 pm : link
"Someone that has produced in multiple places as an OC. "

Like Gilbride?
how about a tight end  
viggie : 12/30/2013 2:15 pm : link
that doesn't fall every time he attempts a catch?
If they get rid of Gilbride only to hire Sullivan, I just give up.  
Riggies : 12/30/2013 2:15 pm : link
I'd rather they just maintain status quo like I've strongly believed they would to this point -- because, really, by hiring Sullivan as OC, they're keeping status quo anyway.

It's change without change... good luck with that working out.
what are we dealing with here??  
area junc : 12/30/2013 2:15 pm : link
it might not be as simple as "Gilbride gone".

they may want to keep Tom as Head Coach but completely change offensive systems - essentially making TC a figure-head

if that's the case, he might walk
RE: RE: If we do get rid of KG  
Victor in CT : 12/30/2013 2:16 pm : link
In comment 11423101 dpassen1 said:
Quote:
In comment 11423081 bradshaw44 said:


Quote:


I want someone with a proven track record. No Bill Sheridans or Mike Sullivans. I'm talking Norv Turners etc...


Agreed. It would be awesome to see what Eli would look like in Norv's offense.


Or Ron Earhardt's. But in either case, you need a good 2 way TE and a solid OL. Lots of work to do.
If they hire a new OC  
viggie : 12/30/2013 2:16 pm : link
they probably want someone who they can transition to as the next HC?
A few thoughts  
Matt M. : 12/30/2013 2:16 pm : link
1) Would Sullivan really be much different than Gilbride?

2) Does he deserve an OC job off this past season?

3) Re: Jernigan - Prior to this year, he wasn't going to take snaps from Cruz, Nicks, Manningham, or Randle, all of whom were productive in their roles. At best, he was always a #4 or #5 WR. Additionally, he never really shined as a KR or PR, so he didn't add anything on ST. His play the last few weeks may have earned him a spot next year. But, if they re-sign Nicks, he would still have a hard time getting on the field regularly.
Brett  
bradshaw44 : 12/30/2013 2:17 pm : link
I'm referring to someone new. Not a Sheridan or Sullivan type deal. This is in assumption that KG is gone. I'm not a KG basher btw. My quote is only in reference to him being gone and Eli under a new coordinators control.
Can't say I'd be too jazzed about Sullivan as OC  
Greg from LI : 12/30/2013 2:17 pm : link
A Coughlin crony whose offense stunk it up in Tampa. Yeesh.
.  
Jints in Carolina : 12/30/2013 2:17 pm : link
Ralph Vacchiano ‏@RVacchianoNYDN 1m
John Mara on the now available Mike Sullivan: "We obviously think very highly of him." #NYG
Mara  
Sammo284 : 12/30/2013 2:17 pm : link
pretty openly called out Reese/Ross on the drafting decisions. Also seemed though to take a veiled shot at the coaching staff on the use of personnel.
...  
SamTheTram : 12/30/2013 2:18 pm : link
That Jernigan quote is a little unfair. He is the backup to Cruz. Would you have pulled Cruz off the field to try out Jernigan?
RE: A few thoughts  
jeff57 : 12/30/2013 2:18 pm : link
In comment 11423143 Matt M. said:
Quote:
1) Would Sullivan really be much different than Gilbride?

2) Does he deserve an OC job off this past season?



NO

NO
the point mara made  
area junc : 12/30/2013 2:18 pm : link
RE: jernigan

he isn't supposed to play over nicks and cruz. but the coaching staff should've created something for him to do on a regular basis

that's been the problem here - no creativity in using the talents of new or younger players. just forcing them into the handful of plays we like to run
Problem I see  
Sammo284 : 12/30/2013 2:20 pm : link
is that you bring back Sullivan and this team fails yet again to make the playoffs and the improvement with Eli/offense is only marginal at best?

What then? Clean house altogether? I don't see it with this ownership.

RE: Brett  
BrettNYG10 : 12/30/2013 2:20 pm : link
In comment 11423144 bradshaw44 said:
Quote:
I'm referring to someone new. Not a Sheridan or Sullivan type deal. This is in assumption that KG is gone. I'm not a KG basher btw. My quote is only in reference to him being gone and Eli under a new coordinators control.


My comment was more tongue in cheek - I know you're not a KG basher.

I'd like to see another OC as well, and I consider myself a big fan of KG (and TC). Part of that is to feed my curiosity, but I don't think a system that so heavily relies on the precise QB/WR relationship that ours does is going to consistently thrive in a world where the CBA minimizes practice time.
just don't understand a Gilbride change  
nyynyg : 12/30/2013 2:20 pm : link
and not a TC change. TC is the damn HC.
If they wanted to completely change the offense, they wouldn't be  
Riggies : 12/30/2013 2:20 pm : link
keeping such a strong eye on Sullivan like Garafolo has been suggesting and JonC has been hinting at all over the place.
Tough to analyze Sullivan in Tampa  
Phil from WNY : 12/30/2013 2:20 pm : link
Josh Freeman was not the right QB to run that offense.
RE: ...  
robbieballs2003 : 12/30/2013 2:20 pm : link
In comment 11423149 SamTheTram said:
Quote:
That Jernigan quote is a little unfair. He is the backup to Cruz. Would you have pulled Cruz off the field to try out Jernigan?


Sam, I understand your point but this is a WR not an offensive lineman. You can get WRs and playmakers on the field very easily. If you go with 4 WRs which we almost never do we would have 2 slot receivers. You don't have to take Cruz out to play Jernigan.
Sullivan really wouldn't make much sense.  
arcarsenal : 12/30/2013 2:21 pm : link
That would indicate that they feel it is almost entirely a playcalling issue and not a systemic issue... which, I don't really understand.

As a QB coach, OTOH.. I'd be perfectly fine with that.
How much is going to really change  
chrispisano66 : 12/30/2013 2:21 pm : link
Going from Coughlin/Gilbride to Coughlin/Sullivan who already coached under Coughlin/Gilbride?
That Jernigan  
Sammo284 : 12/30/2013 2:21 pm : link
comment was definitely a shot at the bow of Gilbride (and to a lesser degree Coughlin).

RE: Replacing Gilbride  
Scyber : 12/30/2013 2:22 pm : link
In comment 11423116 chrispisano66 said:
Quote:
sounds good, but my question is what good will that do if TC's fingerprints have been all over this offense to begin with?


I think if the owners force an OC change, the obvious implication is that they are forcing a change to the Offensive system and they expect the incoming OC to do things differently. I'm pretty sure Coughlin is smart enough to pick up on that.
Exactly.  
bceagle05 : 12/30/2013 2:22 pm : link
If we keep the same system and Cruz plays 16 games next year, Jernigan will catch 10 balls.

I hate to just pile on an offense that's produced two titles, but if there's ever going to be a change during Eli's career, now is the time. He's played like crap, and we only have a 4-5 other guys on the roster who are part of the core on offense going forward. Let's mold this into a more modern offense that takes full advantage of the way the game is officiated these days. I agree that Sullivan would be a lateral move. Hope they look around first.
...  
SamTheTram : 12/30/2013 2:23 pm : link
Jernigan WAS getting some balls his way this season, but produced very little with those opportunities.

Players often times need to get into the rhythm of the game and gain confidence and familarity with the person covering them. It's very hard to come off the bench for a play and be expected to produce.

well...  
hitdog42 : 12/30/2013 2:24 pm : link
when you put in a guy to hit a 3 in basketball... and yank him when he misses... it doesnt instill much confidence... same with JJ and many guys of his sort.
they cant play fast until they feel comfortable in having a roll. JJ started to finally play fast like the tape showed when we drafted him
must be really nice to be TC  
nyynyg : 12/30/2013 2:25 pm : link
not judged at all on your assistant and coordinator hires or performance. a pretty big part of the HC role if you ask me. The guy has to be setting a record for the number of coordinators changed under a HC over a HC tenure if he changes his coordinators this time around...again!
Reese versus Ross  
Greg from LI : 12/30/2013 2:26 pm : link
Jerry's got the ultimate responsibility, but the plain fact of the matter is that the Giants' drafts were excellent when he ran the draft board under Accorsi. Since taking over as GM, the only round that belongs mostly to him is the first, where he's again been very successful. Later rounds have been a problem.....which points to Marc Ross, who now holds the position Reese filled so ably from 2003-06.

Given Reese's overall performance, I'm willing to believe that Ross is the main culprit for the underperforming drafts of recent years.
Again, Jernigan will still have a hard time getting on the field  
Matt M. : 12/30/2013 2:26 pm : link
For most of his time he showed little as a KR or PR, so it made it easier to leave him inactive when roster spots were needed. He was not going to take snaps away from any of the top 3 WRs ahead of him in any given year, and in most cases that included the #4 WR as well. This year, for a few weeks, we finally saw some of what we expected from him in terms of YAC, running ability, and to a lesser degree return capability. However, in his limited chances, including pre-seasons, he never flashed enough to warrant taking any of the other WRs off the field.
Brett...  
bradshaw44 : 12/30/2013 2:26 pm : link
Got it. I'm in the same mind set as you.
Sam  
robbieballs2003 : 12/30/2013 2:26 pm : link
Agreed with that. I just don't think he needs to come on for a play or two. Why is Pascoe/Myers getting reps over him? It is not like they are kicking ass with their blocking. When we want to run WE load the box with a FB and TE and sometimes an extra OL. We NEVER spread a team out and try to run unless we run that draw that rarely works and it is usually on a 2nd or 3rd and long. So, going back to my point about Myers and Pascoe, Jernigan should have been given more of an opportunity than they were given. He can also play over Connor. Obviously he's not going to get the majority of the snaps but she should have been getting more than he has.
My biggest issue with Gilbride  
Phil from WNY : 12/30/2013 2:28 pm : link
is that he seemed to get away from the power running game which is something TC always seemed to favor in the past. It makes me wonder if getting Peyton Hillis was a sign that the Giants brass wanted to see a power attack.
RE: Tough to analyze Sullivan in Tampa  
GIANTSr01 : 12/30/2013 2:28 pm : link
In comment 11423163 Phil from WNY said:
Quote:
Josh Freeman was not the right QB to run that offense.


Or any offense. The Vikes aren't known to have an exceptionally difficult offense to grasp, yet aside from being thrown into the fire against the Giants, Freeman couldn't even sniff the field for the Vikes even with Ponder injured and Cassel the other guy. I live in MN and there are LOTS of rumors about his work effort and character.
The  
Sammo284 : 12/30/2013 2:29 pm : link
issue with the complaints against Gilbride on playcalling is fair, but the problem is also the system with Gilbride's background coming into play is based on Coughlin's offensive philosophy which doesn't espouse much in the way of the use of screens and TEs or any variability in how the skill positions are positioned and employed. Vertical passing game employing complex route trees and dump-offs for marginal TEs is not a method for success over an extended period of time in the NFL.

Offenses can be dynamite by confusing and overwhelming defenses, rather than confusing their own WRs in tandem with that.

Our offense has gotten very boom or bust and predictable. That needs to change in addition to the increase in personnel/talent.
Jernigan was kind of a jack of all trades guy at Troy.  
arcarsenal : 12/30/2013 2:29 pm : link
They used him in a lot of different ways so there's really no reason he can ONLY be used as a slot guy here. He made a few plays lined up on the outside these last few weeks and he's even made plays out of the backfield. He looks like a Tavon Austin type of player to me and it's a shame they couldn't give him more of a chance a little sooner.
Phil  
Matt M. : 12/30/2013 2:29 pm : link
I think it had more to do with who was realistically available. that said, i really hope they re-sign him.
RE: My biggest issue with Gilbride  
GIANTSr01 : 12/30/2013 2:30 pm : link
In comment 11423193 Phil from WNY said:
Quote:
is that he seemed to get away from the power running game which is something TC always seemed to favor in the past. It makes me wonder if getting Peyton Hillis was a sign that the Giants brass wanted to see a power attack.


Hard to read into the Hillis signing given what else was available at the time. He was what, the 5th RB they turned too (Wilson, AB, Scott, Cox)?
RE: Tough to analyze Sullivan in Tampa  
BrettNYG10 : 12/30/2013 2:31 pm : link
In comment 11423163 Phil from WNY said:
Quote:
Josh Freeman was not the right QB to run that offense.


I'm concerned about a coach that takes a talented QB such as Freeman and doesn't mold the system to fit the player. And even if Eli is the right QB to run the offense, it may not be the best system for him.

Replacing KG for Sullivan strikes me as an odd move.
RE: must be really nice to be TC  
Greg from LI : 12/30/2013 2:31 pm : link
In comment 11423182 nyynyg said:
Quote:
not judged at all on your assistant and coordinator hires or performance. a pretty big part of the HC role if you ask me. The guy has to be setting a record for the number of coordinators changed under a HC over a HC tenure if he changes his coordinators this time around...again!


Ehhh, not necessarily. Cowher cycled through coordinators all the time. When LeBeau took the Bengals' HC job, he ran through Jim Haslett and Tim Lewis before LeBeau returned, and he ran through a bunch of OCs, including Ron Erhardt, Chan Gailey, Kevin Gilbride (!), Mike Mularkey and Ken Whisenhunt.
RE: My biggest issue with Gilbride  
robbieballs2003 : 12/30/2013 2:32 pm : link
In comment 11423193 Phil from WNY said:
Quote:
is that he seemed to get away from the power running game which is something TC always seemed to favor in the past. It makes me wonder if getting Peyton Hillis was a sign that the Giants brass wanted to see a power attack.


Phil, I don't know if I totally agree with that but sort of. Yesterday, being at the game, the Redskins DL were just getting penetration and not worrying about the run game. They, early on, were just flying up field. When DL do that you have to trap them. I think I saw ONE trap play all game and that was Hillis' biggest run of the day. I don't get why we didn't run that more often.
Jerrnigan  
mjvm52106 : 12/30/2013 2:32 pm : link
quote is actually very true and damning. Before the oh who would he have replaced crowd comes out, keep in mind Randle didn't play a lot till the end of last season, Nicks was hurt a LOT, Barden played a huge role in a game in Carolina and the offense struggled badly the second half of last season. You can't tell me he couldn't get on the field at all during that time.

This year, no TE production and Nicks doing NOTHINg after week 1 and we still go Cruz, Randle and Nicks only. Murphy hardly played (so he didn't eat up time from JJ) and JJ was a non factor till way late in the season. I am not saying he is great or will be great but the fact is the Giants haven't developed recent draft picks at WR very well. Manningham was a headcase who played well here and there. Barden never was given much opportunity (besides the one big game against Carolina) and was hurt at other times. Randle disappeared the second half of this season...

Young players getting opportunities (beyond being forced by injury) has never been a TC strength.
RE: RE: My biggest issue with Gilbride  
Riggies : 12/30/2013 2:33 pm : link
In comment 11423203 GIANTSr01 said:
Quote:
In comment 11423193 Phil from WNY said:


Quote:


is that he seemed to get away from the power running game which is something TC always seemed to favor in the past. It makes me wonder if getting Peyton Hillis was a sign that the Giants brass wanted to see a power attack.



Hard to read into the Hillis signing given what else was available at the time. He was what, the 5th RB they turned too (Wilson, AB, Scott, Cox)?


Plus Hillis had basic understanding of this offense or at least enough of one to play pretty quickly, thanks to his time in Tampa.

Other scrubs RBs available at that point wouldn't have that going for them and the Giants needed someone to plug in quickly.
Matt and 01  
Phil from WNY : 12/30/2013 2:33 pm : link
True but Hillis is a unique power back - there must have been other options including Torrain. During the season, they signed Jacobs and Hillis - both power backs.
RE: RE: must be really nice to be TC  
Victor in CT : 12/30/2013 2:33 pm : link
In comment 11423209 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 11423182 nyynyg said:


Quote:


not judged at all on your assistant and coordinator hires or performance. a pretty big part of the HC role if you ask me. The guy has to be setting a record for the number of coordinators changed under a HC over a HC tenure if he changes his coordinators this time around...again!



Ehhh, not necessarily. Cowher cycled through coordinators all the time. When LeBeau took the Bengals' HC job, he ran through Jim Haslett and Tim Lewis before LeBeau returned, and he ran through a bunch of OCs, including Ron Erhardt, Chan Gailey, Kevin Gilbride (!), Mike Mularkey and Ken Whisenhunt.


Yes, but Earhardt retired, Gailey, Mularkey and Whisenhunt all became HCs. Who's hiring the Giants coordinators? Only Spags got hired as Head Coach.
Replacing gilbride with sullivan makes zero sense  
GMenLTS : 12/30/2013 2:33 pm : link
to me. Bringing sully back as QBC makes tons of sense but why would you hire someone running almost the exact same system and philosophy if you're kicking KG to the road?

Flies in the face of logic.
Brett  
Greg from LI : 12/30/2013 2:34 pm : link
You touch on something that I've never liked about the Coughlin/Gilbride system - their unwillingness to mold the offense to the paticular skills of the talent rather than forcing the players to play within the confines of the scheme.

I've mentioned this before, but that's what I've always seen as the true genius of Belichick. He's always tinkering with his offense and defense to best suit the players he has rather than expecting them simply to out-execute the other team regardless of whether the personnel is best suited for the scheme.
...  
SamTheTram : 12/30/2013 2:34 pm : link
Robbie. Agreed. Coughin is definately on the conservative side when it comes to young players playing time, especially if they commit a turnover or two.

Jernigan is an interesting case. He was drafted to be a slot receiver. At the time, Cruz had 0 NFL catches. Jernigan's lack of development to this point is more due to the fact that an undrafted rookie free agent turned out to be a superstar at the same position.
RE: RE: Tough to analyze Sullivan in Tampa  
GIANTSr01 : 12/30/2013 2:35 pm : link
In comment 11423208 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
In comment 11423163 Phil from WNY said:


Quote:


Josh Freeman was not the right QB to run that offense.



I'm concerned about a coach that takes a talented QB such as Freeman and doesn't mold the system to fit the player. And even if Eli is the right QB to run the offense, it may not be the best system for him.

Replacing KG for Sullivan strikes me as an odd move.


Freeman might be physically talented, but I'm not sure he has what it takes between the ears to be a top QB. The same rumors about his work ethic/intelligence that popped up when TB cut him, started surfacing after he couldn't pass Ponder/Cassel on the depth chart in MN.
RE: ...  
nygiants1114 : 12/30/2013 2:35 pm : link
In comment 11423225 SamTheTram said:
Quote:
Robbie. Agreed. Coughin is definately on the conservative side when it comes to young players playing time, especially if they commit a turnover or two.

Jernigan is an interesting case. He was drafted to be a slot receiver. At the time, Cruz had 0 NFL catches. Jernigan's lack of development to this point is more due to the fact that an undrafted rookie free agent turned out to be a superstar at the same position.


get both of them on the feild... omg
I think you should be careful  
ghost718 : 12/30/2013 2:36 pm : link
if your thinking about becoming a Jerell Jernigan believer.

The Giants gave him opportunities,he never did shit.
Brett  
Phil from WNY : 12/30/2013 2:36 pm : link
That's Schiano's job to determine how to mold the system to the players. As 01 wrote, Freeman seems to have an issue with his work ethic.
RE: Matt and 01  
GIANTSr01 : 12/30/2013 2:37 pm : link
In comment 11423217 Phil from WNY said:
Quote:
True but Hillis is a unique power back - there must have been other options including Torrain. During the season, they signed Jacobs and Hillis - both power backs.


Both also familiar with the offense and good at picking up blitzers.

Speaking of BJ, I hope he stays on with the org in some capacity.
I want an offense  
Headhunter : 12/30/2013 2:37 pm : link
that can snap the ball with 8-10 seconds on the play clock. Forget about the play calling when it works it is great, when it doesn't the game plan stinks. I think if the players execute any coordinators plays, they will score points. That is not the issue to me, the inability in the "green zone" to get a play off in time leading to a time out or delay of game penalty which turns TD attempts into Field Goals is the biggest indictment that the Offense needs to be overhauled.If they keep statistics on forced time outs and delay of game penalties, the Giants have to lead the League by a wide margin
and that contributes to a broken offense( main culprit
worse Oline in the League)
Jernigan flashed this year, which was a nice surprise  
Greg from LI : 12/30/2013 2:37 pm : link
But it remains to be seen if it was more than a flash.
...  
SamTheTram : 12/30/2013 2:37 pm : link
You don't think Jernigan and Cruz were on the field at the same time at all this season?
Greg  
Matt M. : 12/30/2013 2:39 pm : link
Excellent point of comparison in Bellichick. Think about how many different looks his offenses and defenses have had based on the personnel he's had at his disposal. Whether it be injuries, FA, retiring players, whatever. He has always made adjustments.

RE: RE: ...  
GIANTSr01 : 12/30/2013 2:39 pm : link
In comment 11423233 nygiants1114 said:
Quote:



get both of them on the feild... omg


Easier said then done when you also have Nicks and Randle ahead of JJ on the depth chart. It's not like JJ was languishing on the bench with Louis Murphy stealing opportunities.
Sam  
robbieballs2003 : 12/30/2013 2:39 pm : link
not enough. Murphy was playing over him which is a huge problem.
Headhunter  
mjvm52106 : 12/30/2013 2:40 pm : link
I have been saying this for years. The issue has been the same since 2004... The Giants can't even quick snap to avoid the opposition for challenging a play as Eli takes too damn long to get the ball snapped...
Greg  
Matt M. : 12/30/2013 2:40 pm : link
Also, I find more fault with he lack of adjustment to personnel on the defensive side. They have drafted CBs, for example, who all had a strength of press/man coverage. Yet, they continue to play them off the ball in a soft cover 2 zone.
....  
SamTheTram : 12/30/2013 2:41 pm : link
Giants have signed some backup players from other teams who turned out to be great starters (Ron Stone, Fred Robbins)

Simply put, you not only need the skills and know how to succeed in the NFL, you also need a good situation. Good players can be stuck behind great players on the depth chart.

What does Tom Brady's career look like if Bledsoe doesn't get knocked out of the game running up the sideline.

With some players, you never know how they will perform until your hand is forced.
Snapping the ball right as the play clock expires....  
Greg from LI : 12/30/2013 2:41 pm : link
....also gives defenders an easy chance to jump the snap, making blitzes that much more effective.
Ron Stone's not the best example  
Greg from LI : 12/30/2013 2:42 pm : link
He was only a backup because he was behind arguably the greatest OL in NFL history, Larry Allen, and a perennial Pro Bowler, Nate Newton.
RE: must be really nice to be TC  
Tom in NY : 12/30/2013 2:43 pm : link
In comment 11423182 nyynyg said:
Quote:
not judged at all on your assistant and coordinator hires or performance. a pretty big part of the HC role if you ask me. The guy has to be setting a record for the number of coordinators changed under a HC over a HC tenure if he changes his coordinators this time around...again!


Yeah, when you've won 2 Superbowls you get that benefit of the doubt. Sorry, but all the TC haters are going to have to get over it. TC is welcome to coach the team in 2014, and has earned the right to do so.
Many here are taking Mara's comment regarding  
RDJR : 12/30/2013 2:45 pm : link
JJ too literally. He was making a point about young players getting a chance, using JJ to illustrate his point. Nothing more.
RE: Brett  
BrettNYG10 : 12/30/2013 2:45 pm : link
In comment 11423224 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
You touch on something that I've never liked about the Coughlin/Gilbride system - their unwillingness to mold the offense to the paticular skills of the talent rather than forcing the players to play within the confines of the scheme.

I've mentioned this before, but that's what I've always seen as the true genius of Belichick. He's always tinkering with his offense and defense to best suit the players he has rather than expecting them simply to out-execute the other team regardless of whether the personnel is best suited for the scheme.


Greg, I largely agree with you - however, I'll throw in that we did a good job of transforming our offense to a vertical passing game that fit Eli and the WRs well when Nicks came along. The offense in XLII is very different from XLVI. On the whole, however, I agree.
RE: Mara  
Mason : 12/30/2013 2:47 pm : link
In comment 11423147 Sammo284 said:
Quote:
pretty openly called out Reese/Ross on the drafting decisions. Also seemed though to take a veiled shot at the coaching staff on the use of personnel.


I don't think he did. If you notice the quote he used a disclaimer. That was a slight at the coaches. Not too many will pick that up. Reese let's Coughlin/coaches and scouts bring up the mid draft since 2007. As he pointed during training camp. That and the JJ quotes are very telling. I remember his quote about Beckum as well.
RE: RE: must be really nice to be TC  
nyynyg : 12/30/2013 2:47 pm : link
In comment 11423266 Tom in NY said:
Quote:
In comment 11423182 nyynyg said:


Quote:


not judged at all on your assistant and coordinator hires or performance. a pretty big part of the HC role if you ask me. The guy has to be setting a record for the number of coordinators changed under a HC over a HC tenure if he changes his coordinators this time around...again!



Yeah, when you've won 2 Superbowls you get that benefit of the doubt. Sorry, but all the TC haters are going to have to get over it. TC is welcome to coach the team in 2014, and has earned the right to do so.


his assistants won two super bowls too. sorry, if you have to force changes at the coordinator level on your HC, multiple times, you aren't doing your whole job. must be nice to be judged that way. And I'm not a TC hater btw, just because people want a change at HC doesn't mean they have to hate the HC, it may mean that they just think we need to go in a new direction. Big difference.
RE: RE: Brett  
Greg from LI : 12/30/2013 2:48 pm : link
In comment 11423272 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
In comment 11423224 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


You touch on something that I've never liked about the Coughlin/Gilbride system - their unwillingness to mold the offense to the paticular skills of the talent rather than forcing the players to play within the confines of the scheme.

I've mentioned this before, but that's what I've always seen as the true genius of Belichick. He's always tinkering with his offense and defense to best suit the players he has rather than expecting them simply to out-execute the other team regardless of whether the personnel is best suited for the scheme.



Greg, I largely agree with you - however, I'll throw in that we did a good job of transforming our offense to a vertical passing game that fit Eli and the WRs well when Nicks came along. The offense in XLII is very different from XLVI. On the whole, however, I agree.


It was different by necessity, since they didn't have the running game they had in 2007. I don't think they really wanted to adjust, but you're right that they did it, so it does undermine my point a bit.
Since Eli has the right to change the play at the LOS  
Headhunter : 12/30/2013 2:49 pm : link
also the blocking schemes, you would think that priority 1 would be to get the play in quickly. I'd like a $10 bill for every time Eli looks to the bench with his palms up in the air and the look on his face that says "what's the fucking play?"
If Eli is given 2 plays to choose from every snap, then maybe they should go with 1 play when they are in the "green zone"
...  
BrettNYG10 : 12/30/2013 2:49 pm : link
And that was a gradual change over the course of years, not a rapid one, really.

Phil: That's a fair point. A lot of that does fall on Freeman.
the not being able to get the snap off in time and  
viggie : 12/30/2013 2:50 pm : link
the always taking delay of games and uselessly using timeouts is indicative of the disconnect in this system also. Ive never seen any team do this year in and year out.
Inability to "reload" offensively, from season to season  
ij_reilly : 12/30/2013 2:53 pm : link
In today's NFL, each team "reloads" from season to season. The Giants are ineffective in reloading offensively. The system is too complicated. Free agents can't contribute effectively, because it takes too long to figure the damn thing out. Rookies, forget about it. Two years minimum, if not three, just to have a chance to contribute.

The game has changed. The Giants need to change with it. The OC has to go.
Can't blame it all on Freeman  
jeff57 : 12/30/2013 2:54 pm : link
Sullivan had Glennon starting for 13 of the 16 games.
RE: I want an offense  
Tom in NY : 12/30/2013 2:55 pm : link
In comment 11423239 Headhunter said:
Quote:
that can snap the ball with 8-10 seconds on the play clock. Forget about the play calling when it works it is great, when it doesn't the game plan stinks. I think if the players execute any coordinators plays, they will score points. That is not the issue to me, the inability in the "green zone" to get a play off in time leading to a time out or delay of game penalty which turns TD attempts into Field Goals is the biggest indictment that the Offense needs to be overhauled.If they keep statistics on forced time outs and delay of game penalties, the Giants have to lead the League by a wide margin
and that contributes to a broken offense( main culprit
worse Oline in the League)


Amen!
IF Gilbride speaks with the media, I want the question asked about the delay of game penalties, and the constant play clock to 1 second at the snap issue questioned. He has to answer for that.

...and I do appreciate the work Gilbride has done between '06 and now, it's just time to move on to a new system.
jeff  
Phil from WNY : 12/30/2013 2:57 pm : link
Glennon is a rookie taken in the third round this year. The fact that they cut Freeman for Glennon tells you all you need to know about Freeman. Also, the fact that Sullivan got Glennon to play well is a big plus for Sullivan.
hard to use Glennon against Sullivan  
Greg from LI : 12/30/2013 2:58 pm : link
One, he played better than I ever expected (and as an ACC fan I saw plenty of him at NCSU). Two, he was a rookie.
RE: RE: RE: must be really nice to be TC  
Tom in NY : 12/30/2013 2:59 pm : link
In comment 11423278 nyynyg said:
Quote:
In comment 11423266 Tom in NY said:


Quote:


In comment 11423182 nyynyg said:


Quote:


not judged at all on your assistant and coordinator hires or performance. a pretty big part of the HC role if you ask me. The guy has to be setting a record for the number of coordinators changed under a HC over a HC tenure if he changes his coordinators this time around...again!



Yeah, when you've won 2 Superbowls you get that benefit of the doubt. Sorry, but all the TC haters are going to have to get over it. TC is welcome to coach the team in 2014, and has earned the right to do so.



his assistants won two super bowls too. sorry, if you have to force changes at the coordinator level on your HC, multiple times, you aren't doing your whole job. must be nice to be judged that way. And I'm not a TC hater btw, just because people want a change at HC doesn't mean they have to hate the HC, it may mean that they just think we need to go in a new direction. Big difference.


You are demanding the termination of the HC that won the Super Bowl 23 months ago, for the 2nd time. His team had a winning record in 2012, and for the 11 years he has been here only 2 losing seasons. He has earned the right to another season.

Why Gilbride should leave now? The offensive system (Yes, I know this is TC's system) has grown stale. They need some new thoughts on offense, to go along with the great leadership TC brings to the table.

I think Mr Mara means we need better players.  
chops : 12/30/2013 3:01 pm : link
I expect TC will change much of the offense after the dismal results of the last 2 seasons.

But changing coaches ignores the lack of talent on the O line. I mean the coaching is not at fault 100%.
RE: Mara  
Mason : 12/30/2013 3:02 pm : link
In comment 11423147 Sammo284 said:
Quote:
pretty openly called out Reese/Ross on the drafting decisions. Also seemed though to take a veiled shot at the coaching staff on the use of personnel.


Where did he call them out at. The quote was at certain draft positions. Reese set away from the draft board in 2008. First round picks are his baby. Since 2008, Ross and Coughlin are running those mid rounds. As noted in 2009, heavily Coughlin draft.
Link - ( New Window )
RE: I think Mr Mara means we need better players.  
Greg from LI : 12/30/2013 3:03 pm : link
In comment 11423316 chops said:
Quote:
But changing coaches ignores the lack of talent on the O line. I mean the coaching is not at fault 100%.


Who was evaluating those linemen? Who kept Diehl and Snee as starters, even though Snee was a physical wreck and Diehl's been terrible for years?
RE: hard to use Glennon against Sullivan  
jeff57 : 12/30/2013 3:03 pm : link
In comment 11423311 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
One, he played better than I ever expected (and as an ACC fan I saw plenty of him at NCSU). Two, he was a rookie.


Buffalo had a rookie and a scrub at QB and they didn't end up last in offense.

Jets had Geno Smith and they didn't end up last in offense.

Raiders had Matt McGloin for a good chunk of the year, and they didn't end up last in offense.
The Bucs also had no running game after Doug Martin got hurt  
Greg from LI : 12/30/2013 3:07 pm : link
Which wasn't the case for the Raiders and Bills
They went into the season  
Headhunter : 12/30/2013 3:07 pm : link
with an Offensive Line built on a hope and a prayer. The hope was the starters would stay healthy, they didn't. The prayer was they would not have to use any of their mediocre backups as starters for long stretches, prayers unanswered.This is squarely on Reese and he has to fix it by any means necessary or you will have a repeat of the 2013 season
Also, now that I'm looking at it  
Greg from LI : 12/30/2013 3:10 pm : link
The Bucs had a pretty brutal schedule. Two games against the Panthers and Saints, the Patriots, Eagles, Niners, Seahawks, Cardinals. Those are a lot of quality defenses.
Oakland was in a division with 3 playoff teams  
jeff57 : 12/30/2013 3:11 pm : link
.
put it another way,......  
Greg from LI : 12/30/2013 3:12 pm : link
Nine of sixteen games the Bucs played were against top ten defense, including 5 games against three of the top 4.
sorry, six games against top 5 defenses.  
Greg from LI : 12/30/2013 3:14 pm : link
.
Aaron Rodgers used almost  
section125 : 12/30/2013 3:14 pm : link
every second on the clock on almost every play yesterday. He was getting the ball at 1 or 2 seconds.
...  
SamTheTram : 12/30/2013 3:15 pm : link
I remember being surprised that no team threw a nice contract at booth this offseason. Teams were trying to coax linemen out of retirement instead. He came back for the vet minimum. Now we see why
I expect that most likely is . . . .  
TC : 12/30/2013 3:16 pm : link
they ask TC to stay on with a new OC, other coaches and a new offensive philosophy. But if this offense is what Tom believes in, as has often been discussed, it would seem both unfair and ineffective to try to make him work with people he doesn't have complete confidence in, doing things he doesn't want to do.
what if --  
santacruzom : 12/30/2013 3:18 pm : link
and believe me, this is HY-PO-THETICAL!! -- but what if the Jernigan who produced in week 16 and 17 of his third NFL season is simply a much better player than he was during his 1st and 2nd year?

I mean, is it possible these guys actually improve?
santa  
GMenLTS : 12/30/2013 3:19 pm : link
that's some way out there radical thinking brah.

I don't think BBI is ready for that kind of logic.
Hiring Sullivan  
Rflairr : 12/30/2013 3:27 pm : link
When guys like Kubiak, Turner, Chud, and even Linehan are available is fucking nuts.
Forgot about Kubiak  
jeff57 : 12/30/2013 3:28 pm : link
He would be good too.
RE: Reese versus Ross  
AcidTest : 12/30/2013 3:52 pm : link
In comment 11423185 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
Jerry's got the ultimate responsibility, but the plain fact of the matter is that the Giants' drafts were excellent when he ran the draft board under Accorsi. Since taking over as GM, the only round that belongs mostly to him is the first, where he's again been very successful. Later rounds have been a problem.....which points to Marc Ross, who now holds the position Reese filled so ably from 2003-06.

Given Reese's overall performance, I'm willing to believe that Ross is the main culprit for the underperforming drafts of recent years.


This. Agreed. Jerry needs to take back control of the entire draft. Ross's drafts weren't any good when he was with the Eagles. They seem to have improved in that regard since he left.

I would prefer Turner to Sullivan, but regardless, it does sound as if KG is gone.
RE: Jerrnigan  
HomerJones45 : 12/30/2013 3:56 pm : link
In comment 11423215 mjvm52106 said:
Quote:
quote is actually very true and damning. Before the oh who would he have replaced crowd comes out, keep in mind Randle didn't play a lot till the end of last season, Nicks was hurt a LOT, Barden played a huge role in a game in Carolina and the offense struggled badly the second half of last season. You can't tell me he couldn't get on the field at all during that time.

This year, no TE production and Nicks doing NOTHINg after week 1 and we still go Cruz, Randle and Nicks only. Murphy hardly played (so he didn't eat up time from JJ) and JJ was a non factor till way late in the season. I am not saying he is great or will be great but the fact is the Giants haven't developed recent draft picks at WR very well. Manningham was a headcase who played well here and there. Barden never was given much opportunity (besides the one big game against Carolina) and was hurt at other times. Randle disappeared the second half of this season...

Young players getting opportunities (beyond being forced by injury) has never been a TC strength.


Jernigan got multiple appearances and playing time and did zero with it. I think he was averaging less than 10 yards a catch.

And exactly what do you know about him now? He had a couple of decent games at end of season. Barden caught 9 passes in one game. How did that work out. Jernigan could right back next year to being what he was for 3 years- nothing.

This is really scary that Mara is, like his Daddy before him, listening to sports writers and dopes in the fan base.
RE: Jerrnigan  
HomerJones45 : 12/30/2013 3:59 pm : link
In comment 11423215 mjvm52106 said:
Quote:
quote is actually very true and damning. Before the oh who would he have replaced crowd comes out, keep in mind Randle didn't play a lot till the end of last season, Nicks was hurt a LOT, Barden played a huge role in a game in Carolina and the offense struggled badly the second half of last season. You can't tell me he couldn't get on the field at all during that time.

This year, no TE production and Nicks doing NOTHINg after week 1 and we still go Cruz, Randle and Nicks only. Murphy hardly played (so he didn't eat up time from JJ) and JJ was a non factor till way late in the season. I am not saying he is great or will be great but the fact is the Giants haven't developed recent draft picks at WR very well. Manningham was a headcase who played well here and there. Barden never was given much opportunity (besides the one big game against Carolina) and was hurt at other times. Randle disappeared the second half of this season...

Young players getting opportunities (beyond being forced by injury) has never been a TC strength.


Jernigan got multiple appearances and playing time and did zero with it. I think he was averaging less than 10 yards a catch.

And exactly what do you know about him now? He had a couple of decent games at end of season. Barden caught 9 passes in one game. How did that work out. Jernigan could right back next year to being what he was for 3 years- nothing.

This is really scary that Mara is, like his Daddy before him, listening to sports writers and dopes in the fan base.
RE: Reese versus Ross  
GmenDynasty : 12/30/2013 4:04 pm : link
In comment 11423185 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
Jerry's got the ultimate responsibility, but the plain fact of the matter is that the Giants' drafts were excellent when he ran the draft board under Accorsi. Since taking over as GM, the only round that belongs mostly to him is the first, where he's again been very successful. Later rounds have been a problem.....which points to Marc Ross, who now holds the position Reese filled so ably from 2003-06.

Given Reese's overall performance, I'm willing to believe that Ross is the main culprit for the underperforming drafts of recent years.


Excellent points. I think Reese has been one of the best player evaluators we have ever had. I would love him back doing that for the later rounds too if that is the case.
RE: Brett  
GmenDynasty : 12/30/2013 4:06 pm : link
In comment 11423224 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
You touch on something that I've never liked about the Coughlin/Gilbride system - their unwillingness to mold the offense to the paticular skills of the talent rather than forcing the players to play within the confines of the scheme.

I've mentioned this before, but that's what I've always seen as the true genius of Belichick. He's always tinkering with his offense and defense to best suit the players he has rather than expecting them simply to out-execute the other team regardless of whether the personnel is best suited for the scheme.


Another excellent post. Will Mara finally step up and force the right changes?
no  
mdc1 : 12/30/2013 4:10 pm : link
.
Jernigan is for real  
djm : 12/30/2013 4:13 pm : link
you can't fake the kind of shit he was doing down the stretch. How good he is remains to be seen but he's clearly taken a step forward in his development. He's an NFL player now. He will play next season.
wasn't these same things said about Moss  
GMANinDC : 12/30/2013 4:17 pm : link
in his 3rd and 4th years?
RE: RE: Brett  
HomerJones45 : 12/30/2013 4:19 pm : link
In comment 11423527 GmenDynasty said:
Quote:
In comment 11423224 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


You touch on something that I've never liked about the Coughlin/Gilbride system - their unwillingness to mold the offense to the paticular skills of the talent rather than forcing the players to play within the confines of the scheme.

I've mentioned this before, but that's what I've always seen as the true genius of Belichick. He's always tinkering with his offense and defense to best suit the players he has rather than expecting them simply to out-execute the other team regardless of whether the personnel is best suited for the scheme.



Another excellent post. Will Mara finally step up and force the right changes?


And what particular talents would those be? That is another slogan with no substance.

Lil Bill has Tom Brady- we don't.
RE: Replacing Gilbride  
GloryDayz : 12/30/2013 4:24 pm : link
In comment 11423084 mrvax said:
Quote:
with Sullivan is just like having Gilbride back, no?


Exactly... I'd take Sullivan back as QB coach though. Eli and WR's played well during his time at WR the QB coaches.
RE: what are we dealing with here??  
GloryDayz : 12/30/2013 4:29 pm : link
In comment 11423136 area junc said:
Quote:
it might not be as simple as "Gilbride gone".

they may want to keep Tom as Head Coach but completely change offensive systems - essentially making TC a figure-head

if that's the case, he might walk


No not a "figure-head", an administrator/manager... thats what a HC often does.
Mara said "certain spots" in the draft  
Mason : 12/30/2013 4:31 pm : link
As Ross explained the war room about two years ago and in a video if I recall. He is at the board, Abrams and Gettlemen were at the phones, Reese in the big chair and on both of his sides are Chris Mara and Tom Coughlin. John Mara is standing. Reese is very vocal 1st and 2nd rounds. Coughlin and C. Mara mid rounds and C. Mara mostly later rounds. Everyone has their notes, including scouting and coaching notes. There is lively discussion mid rounds.

If anyone believes Coughlin is sitting quietly in those mid rounds and the FO is telling him this is the guy we're taking deal with it. Then I don't know what to say.
RE: RE: what are we dealing with here??  
GmenDynasty : 12/30/2013 4:39 pm : link
In comment 11423603 GloryDayz said:
Quote:
In comment 11423136 area junc said:


Quote:


it might not be as simple as "Gilbride gone".

they may want to keep Tom as Head Coach but completely change offensive systems - essentially making TC a figure-head

if that's the case, he might walk



No not a "figure-head", an administrator/manager... thats what a HC often does.


Exactly. He can do EVERYTHING a HC does except step back a little from the X's and O's and let his coordinators do their thing.
Homer  
eleven : 12/30/2013 4:54 pm : link
He did it with Cassel too.
The system works  
SLIM : 12/30/2013 4:59 pm : link
Yeah, I'll bring up those two trophies that we have under this offensive system. It is very easy to say that they should have switched to a shorter passing game earlier but the shorter passing game hasn't worked too well in most spots either. We have an offensive line that isn't very good at run or pass blocking and doesn't have chemistry. We have a tight end who isn't particularly good at blocking and isn't that fast who seems to have trouble learning the offense(young players like Ballard and Boss had no trouble and neither did the 1st year (in the system player) Bennett. Our second tight end's best trait is that he stays healthy and our star wide receiver's most dominant trait is that he can't seem to stay healthy. Fix some of those things and the offense will play better.

This is Coughlin's offense and not Gilbride. That doesn't mean it can't be tweaked a little to incorporate some different looks. It also doesn't mean that playcalling can't focus more on running the ball (see Dallas this year) and running at a quicker tempo. It also doesn't mean that we can't change the makeup of the line - Jacksonville had monsters up front where during our best years, we had more technician type player).

The Giants think very highly of Sullivan and he knows the offense but will provide some change to Gilbride. He is thought of highly where he may be the next HC so there are absolute reasons for bringing him back. Here are two scenarios if he comes back as the OC.

Best Case - The offense/Eli turns around under Sullivan and Sullivan is ready to take over as HC when Coughlin decides it's time to go.

Worst Case - The offense continues to crap the bed. Coughlin has to be told to retire and the Giants have to go out of house to find the next HC.


mara  
SBlue46 : 12/30/2013 5:01 pm : link
Can't figure out Gilbride
And jr. Wr coach is the reason.
mara  
SBlue46 : 12/30/2013 5:03 pm : link
Waits to get the cheap
Coaches....
Fix the Offense? OK!!!  
Bobby Epps : 12/30/2013 5:07 pm : link
Cut Baas, take the Dead Money hit but use the overall savings to sign Alex Mack to play Center.

Do not re-sign Diehl. Instead sign Matt Slauson from the Bears to play LG. I blogged here last year that I wanted the Giants to sign him when he left the Jets but Reese re-signed Diehl and Boothe. BTW IIRC NOT ONE TEAM invited Boothe in for a try-out before Reese re-signed him last year- I guess the other 31 GMs knew something about Boothe that Reese didn't.

Let Nicks walk and sign Eric Decker from the Broncos to play WR.

Cut Andre Brown because he's always hurt and the number of his fumbles keep increasing. Instead sign Rashard Mendenhall of the Cardinals but ONLY IF he stops tweeting about 9/11 and Osama Bin Laden.

Cut all the TEs except Robinson and hope and pray he stays healthy. Sign Ballard as the BLOCKING TE.

Draft OLs in the 1st and 2d Rounds and a TE in the 3d.

So, Decker, Cruz and Randle as starting WRs with JJ as 4th WR.

From left to right on the OL, Beatty (assuming his leg has healed), Slauson, Mack, rookie RG, Pugh and Ballard

Backfield is Eli, Mendenhall and Conner.

Power running with some pretty good WRs and an established blocking TE and FB.
RE: mara  
Mason : 12/30/2013 5:21 pm : link
In comment 11423689 SBlue46 said:
Quote:
Waits to get the cheap
Coaches....


You should qualify your statement. I know you mean assistants but it could be interpreted to include head coach. I'm not sure if I agree. I know Mara said no to coach Bounty but he did reward Spags nicely to keep him another year.
RE: Mara said  
HomerJones45 : 12/30/2013 5:50 pm : link
In comment 11423616 Mason said:
Quote:
As Ross explained the war room about two years ago and in a video if I recall. He is at the board, Abrams and Gettlemen were at the phones, Reese in the big chair and on both of his sides are Chris Mara and Tom Coughlin. John Mara is standing. Reese is very vocal 1st and 2nd rounds. Coughlin and C. Mara mid rounds and C. Mara mostly later rounds. Everyone has their notes, including scouting and coaching notes. There is lively discussion mid rounds.

If anyone believes Coughlin is sitting quietly in those mid rounds and the FO is telling him this is the guy we're taking deal with it. Then I don't know what to say.


So when is Jawn going to fire Chris since he is distressed by the draft?
RE: Jerrnigan  
Great White Ghost : 12/30/2013 5:54 pm : link
In comment 11423215 mjvm52106 said:
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quote is actually very true and damning. Before the oh who would he have replaced crowd comes out, keep in mind Randle didn't play a lot till the end of last season, Nicks was hurt a LOT, Barden played a huge role in a game in Carolina and the offense struggled badly the second half of last season. You can't tell me he couldn't get on the field at all during that time.

This year, no TE production and Nicks doing NOTHINg after week 1 and we still go Cruz, Randle and Nicks only. Murphy hardly played (so he didn't eat up time from JJ) and JJ was a non factor till way late in the season. I am not saying he is great or will be great but the fact is the Giants haven't developed recent draft picks at WR very well. Manningham was a headcase who played well here and there. Barden never was given much opportunity (besides the one big game against Carolina) and was hurt at other times. Randle disappeared the second half of this season...

Young players getting opportunities (beyond being forced by injury) has never been a TC strength.


Nicks had 900 yds on the year. Not what we expected, but certainly not "Nothing".
I think all of Mara's comments paint a decent picture  
Jimmy Googs : 12/30/2013 5:58 pm : link
that the owners want TC but they don't want Gilbride anymore.

Mara may not get TC because of that but I doubt it because he loves coaching too much and isn't ready.

But the Owners/Reese are going to push him to agree to a new OC that will hopefully be the heir apparent head coach.

RE: RE: I think Mr Mara means we need better players.  
Great White Ghost : 12/30/2013 6:10 pm : link
In comment 11423323 Greg from LI said:
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In comment 11423316 chops said:


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But changing coaches ignores the lack of talent on the O line. I mean the coaching is not at fault 100%.



Who was evaluating those linemen? Who kept Diehl and Snee as starters, even though Snee was a physical wreck and Diehl's been terrible for years?


The issue with that greg, is there seems an unspoken posit with you statement, that there were better behind them on the roster, when there really weren't.
RE: .  
Rick5 : 12/30/2013 6:11 pm : link
In comment 11423045 Jints in Carolina said:
Quote:
Kimberly Jones ‏@KimJonesSports 59s
John Mara: Wants Tom Coughlin back. "I think our offense is broken, & we need to fix that. …We can't go into next season w/same personnel."


Honestly, this is about the most obvious possible thing that he could have said. Did people really expect him to say the offense is fine and no changes are necessary? Of course the offense was terrible and changes are coming. We all knew that yesterday. I said exactly the type of thing I would have expected him to say.
He said  
Rick5 : 12/30/2013 6:12 pm : link
exactly
RE: wasn't these same things said about Moss  
Great White Ghost : 12/30/2013 6:15 pm : link
In comment 11423565 GMANinDC said:
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in his 3rd and 4th years?

Whether they were or weren't said, I have no recollection of Moss putting together anything that could be called a body of work for 3 consecutive weeks, and I don't ever remember him being the guy to pull the wagon like Jerrell did this week, even for a game.It's clear Jernigan can play NFL football.one of the only nice suprise in the last month, other than Hillis reminding us, again, he can run the ball.
RE: Mara said  
Great White Ghost : 12/30/2013 6:41 pm : link
In comment 11423616 Mason said:
Quote:
As Ross explained the war room about two years ago and in a video if I recall. He is at the board, Abrams and Gettlemen were at the phones, Reese in the big chair and on both of his sides are Chris Mara and Tom Coughlin. John Mara is standing. Reese is very vocal 1st and 2nd rounds. Coughlin and C. Mara mid rounds and C. Mara mostly later rounds. Everyone has their notes, including scouting and coaching notes. There is lively discussion mid rounds.

If anyone believes Coughlin is sitting quietly in those mid rounds and the FO is telling him this is the guy we're taking deal with it. Then I don't know what to say.


Thank you, that answers some questions I've had about Chris Mara's role.Has me thinking.....
Lets not get all misty eyed  
540NYFAN : 12/30/2013 6:44 pm : link
over Jernigan. He had a good game against a really bad 3-13 team that gave up before the game even started and just fired their head coach, at home. We can all stop acting like he just man handled Sherman at Seattle.
I'm sold on him  
Great White Ghost : 12/30/2013 6:46 pm : link
And am inclined to think a decent staff could develop him into a useful weapon.
RE: RE: RE: I think Mr Mara means we need better players.  
Greg from LI : 12/30/2013 6:47 pm : link
In comment 11423818 Great White Ghost said:
Quote:
In comment 11423323 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


In comment 11423316 chops said:


Quote:


But changing coaches ignores the lack of talent on the O line. I mean the coaching is not at fault 100%.



Who was evaluating those linemen? Who kept Diehl and Snee as starters, even though Snee was a physical wreck and Diehl's been terrible for years?



The issue with that greg, is there seems an unspoken posit with you statement, that there were better behind them on the roster, when there really weren't.


The problems with Diehl and Snee didn't just sprout up overnight this season. The problems with the OL have been brewing for three years..
RE: Reese versus Ross  
Ira : 12/30/2013 6:47 pm : link
In comment 11423185 Greg from LI said:
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Jerry's got the ultimate responsibility, but the plain fact of the matter is that the Giants' drafts were excellent when he ran the draft board under Accorsi. Since taking over as GM, the only round that belongs mostly to him is the first, where he's again been very successful. Later rounds have been a problem.....which points to Marc Ross, who now holds the position Reese filled so ably from 2003-06.

Given Reese's overall performance, I'm willing to believe that Ross is the main culprit for the underperforming drafts of recent years.


I think that sums it up.
RE: Sullivan really wouldn't make much sense.  
GiantTuff1 : 12/30/2013 7:03 pm : link
In comment 11423167 arcarsenal said:
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That would indicate that they feel it is almost entirely a playcalling issue and not a systemic issue... which, I don't really understand.

As a QB coach, OTOH.. I'd be perfectly fine with that.


This is spot on...

Why are we shuffling chairs on the Titanic... One guy of the same cloth but with younger energy is still running the SAME OFFENSE.

It's the offensive system that is broken, the play calling isn't the issue. We're not Dallas here.
Can we sign up for two-a-days and pads?  
glowrider : 12/30/2013 7:19 pm : link
.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I think Mr Mara means we need better players.  
Great White Ghost : 12/30/2013 9:48 pm : link
In comment 11423913 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 11423818 Great White Ghost said:


Quote:


In comment 11423323 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


In comment 11423316 chops said:


Quote:


But changing coaches ignores the lack of talent on the O line. I mean the coaching is not at fault 100%.



Who was evaluating those linemen? Who kept Diehl and Snee as starters, even though Snee was a physical wreck and Diehl's been terrible for years?



The issue with that greg, is there seems an unspoken posit with you statement, that there were better behind them on the roster, when there really weren't.



The problems with Diehl and Snee didn't just sprout up overnight this season. The problems with the OL have been brewing for three years..


I agree with you to an extent actually.Should have been adressed better than it was, but if the players to replace them aren't on the roster, then what the fuck is the coach supposed to do?He plays what he has. I'm of the opinion management has more to do with what players are available as opposed to the coaches.
Riggies is correct  
JonC : 12/30/2013 9:50 pm : link
There won't be big offensive scheme changes unless TC steps down.

Now that Sullivan has shaken loose as expected, the chatter will figure to really pick up steam, as I'd heard two weeks ago.
Yeah, it's hard to see how they can patch up this offense  
Reese's Pieces : 12/30/2013 11:19 pm : link
in the offseason with a few new players and get dramatically different results. There are just so many mediocre players on the offense.

And Eli is still at the center of things. Give him some new protection people and a halfway decent two way tight end and he'll get over this one year bump in the road.

But what if he doesn't?
RE: RE: Reese versus Ross  
Jim in Fairfax : 12/30/2013 11:40 pm : link
In comment 11423491 AcidTest said:
Quote:

This. Agreed. Jerry needs to take back control of the entire draft. Ross's drafts weren't any good when he was with the Eagles. They seem to have improved in that regard since he left.


That's not the least bit realistic. No General Manager has the time to scout the entire draft and build a draft board. Ross simply needs replacing with someone better.
But what if he doesn't?  
Bill in UT : 12/30/2013 11:43 pm : link
Then the Giants' new GM will draft a QB in round 1 of the 2015 draft. Hopefully the Giants' current GM won't have given Eli an extension before then
Seriously, it's hard to imagine  
Bill in UT : 12/30/2013 11:52 pm : link
that Eli will have another year as bad as this one. He's pretty certain to bounce back, the question is how high the bounce will be.
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