Beatty

Started with the QB.

Reese panicked and gave him the type of deal Pro-Bowl tackles deserve. Now we are not only stuck with Beatty, but also will have to account for his cap hit.

So take your pick.

Is sometimes more effective looking at the persons heart instead of his stats. Reese obviously does the latter. Maybe put down the clipboard and dig deeper to see what's really inside and I'm not talking about being a yes man. I'm talking about fire. Passion. Heart. Something the giants clearly lack no matter how good they look on paper. When coughlin said he felt sorry for players with no heart, maybe that's Reese's que moving forward.

The demise of the QB started with the OL.
But that is only one man's opinion.

...

which looked reasonable at the time. He is not getting top dollar for an OLT. Beatty was also improving every year. Yep he sucked this year. But no it is not permanent suckage. I never thought he was great, but he was competent. They won two Super Bowls with DD at LT and DD was merely competent.

There is no denying Eli has been very bad in his own right. You can't blame all his problems on the line as so many want to do. Far too many bad throws and bad decisions where protection was not an issue.

Eli has demonstrated that with a good supporting cast he can win a Super Bowl.
Give Eli a consistent running game, receivers who run precise routes, and a line that protects him and he will succeed.
Beatty is not the player that he was last year and he was abused by opposing DL all year. Unless he was injured, or there are some other extenuating circumstances, there is no reason to expect him to improve.
If Beatty is the starting left tackle next year and he allows 13 sacks again the offense will not improve.

It was determined that our starting LT was the worst in the league this season and you are putting most of the blame on the QB?

Too many here see the Qb throw an INT and that's where their story ends--the QB must have made a bad throw.

And it is simple-minded thinking.

There were a lot of people in the national football media who immediately called out Reese for what they paid Beatty. Called it a way over pay and a panic move. I didn't agree. They were all correct and I was wrong again.

He has been horrible and it is not everyone else's fault except his. They pay him an obscene amount of money. He is supposed to make players around him better. He was great in 2011. Since the he has been bad.

Too many are passing the blame anywhere except the guy with the massive contract. We all know the looney was a shit show. But so was Eli His issues go well beyond bad protection whether we want to admit it or not.

May have been the biggest problem. But Eli was a bigger issue than one individule linemen -Beatty.

Hard to find a positive, and I realize Orakpo was out, but before he got hurt Sunday Beatty was having a pretty good game and was playing physical.

and gave him a terrible contract.

And it is pretty undeniable.

Who have been good in the past and suddenly fell apart.

high in this draft. They cannot go in with the thinking that Beatty will be alright coming off a broken leg the way he played even while healthy. Pugh affords them the felxibility to draft a future LT that can start at right and move Pugh inside. It will give the Giants insurance for beatty and if he continues to play poorly they will have to let him go in a year or 2 and eat the contract meanwhile already having his replacement on the roster. If Beatty plays well then the line is that much better with 3 solid lineman in place. I hope this is the plan going forward.

I do not think that any Giant fan believes that Eli played well last year. Eli was awful and has demonstrated that he requires a very good supporting cast in order to succeed.
That cast starts with an offensive line that can pass protect and run block at a high level.

There also needs to be an identity to the offense.

The line as presently comprised is made up of finesse and power players. What are the Giants? Are they to be a smash mouth physical style team or a finesse zone blocking style ?

So you are happy with Eli's play?? Seriously? I love Eli, but he has been terrible. Others have also, but you are in denial if you can't acknowledge his bad play.

at all. Going into last off-season, Beatty had the Giants by the balls. They needed an OLT, Beatty played pretty well in 2012 and there were no good F/A available at a reasonable price.

You have to live 1 more year with Beatty's contract. Suck it up, make him a backup if necessary, pray he returns to form.

It almost looks like the Giants will have to pick an OT in round one with Beatty's broken leg. You can't sign another veteran replacement and pay him OLT money.

Lots of attention will be paid to the Oline in the next few months.

Reese panicked. His contract is the 11th highest in average per year now for a LT. Coming off of his previous play I thought it was a value contract.

He played shitty this year. Hopefully he heels and gets back to where he played in 2012

Beatty signed a contract thats on par with what starting LTs around the league make. He isnt a bargain, but he certainly isnt breaking the cap.

Poor return on the first season of the deal. I think most would agree there. But its nevertheless odd that so many here see this as an albatross of a deal.

If a reasonable person were to take a dispassioned look at cost vs. production for each player, therr are about 5-6 other guys we should be looking at before we get to Beatty. Namely our 20M per year QB who's now led the league in picks twice in four years.

It's about average for an established left tackle on his second contract. He certainly underperformed his $19MM guarantee, but it's not as though he's making Joe Thomas money. Consider the 2014/2105 cap numbers for the LTs in the NFC East (Beatty becomes relatively cuttable in 2016, so cap numbers beyond 2015 don't matter much):

Trent Williams: $11.0MM / $14.2MM
Jason Peters: $10.3MM / UFA
Will Beatty: 7.4MM /8.0MM
Tyron Smith: 4.0MM / UFA

Smith is a star, and will get paid like one by 2015. Williams is a good player, but his extension was pricey and the Redskins will probably need to restructure him. Peters was the best in the business a few years ago, and would be making even more if not for his injury history.

The problem with Will Beatty isn't that he makes top dollar. The problem with Will Beatty is that he needs to play a lot better, and first he has to bounce back from a broken leg.

For those who say that we need to play Beatty and hope that he returns to 2012 production, what happens if he is the 2013 version or worse?
Beatty will be coming off a terrible season and a serious injury that will limit his off season preparation.
I have no confidence that we will see an improved version of Beatty. If he allows 13 sacks again next year how much better can the team be?

- i could see

pugh/boothe/x/x/x

being all new players, maybe 2 high picks and one big F.A.

agree that Beatty had Reese in a bad position, but we wouldn't have been in that position if Reese had a capable replacement. And that replacement could have been Cordy Glenn, who we could have taken instead of David Wilson. Glenn was in fact the highest rated player on the Giants' board IIRC, but they skipped over him because he had weight concerns.

Fine, but have somebody else in the wings so to speak, especially considering that LT is a critical position for any team with a right handed QB. Our QB is also a two time winning SB MVP, who is largely immobile. Beatty would never have been in a position to dominate Reese in those negotiations if Reese had planned ahead. But he ignored the OL in the upper rounds from 2009 (Beatty) until 2013 (Pugh).

Beatty would have either left, or gotten a smaller contract. The latter would give us more cap flexibility going forward, something which is now critically important given his terrible play and broken leg. The earliest we can get out of his contract is 2015, when we could spread his cap hit out over two years by designating him as a June 1 cut. Beatty needed a lot of offseason work that now won't get done because of his injury. I wouldn't expect much from him in 2014, except maybe as a decent substitute later in the season if someone gets hurt.

As far as what we do going forward, flip Pugh to LT, and draft a RT in the first three rounds. Or use a first round pick on a LT and keep Pugh at RT. But somewhere we are also going to have to get a FA C or G, and even then hope that Brewer, Mosley, Herman, and/or Goodin develop. Baas, Snee, Diehl, Boothe, and Reynolds should all be gone IMO.

This is where Reese has left us.

I don't blame him one bit considering the market, but I'm more concerned with the plan going forward. I want his replacement on the roster "if" his poor play continues. If not, we need to upgrade the entire Oline anyway so that will work out either way. I'm all in with drafting a LT in the first round that can both backup Beatty and start at RT.
I would hope this is the plan. There are plenty of very good tackles in the draft. Giants better hit on one of them.

thought the Beatty deal was a bit high, but losing him would have been worse, as it turns out...maybe not. I hope the guy can bounce back and become at least a solid LT, sheet, for the money he is commanding, the Giants and Reese better pray. Scary.

at 12 is about the same as sending Beatty to the bench. Anyone think he can play guard?

Tough to complete passes when laying on your back and equally difficult to make quality throws when you have a DL in your face. Eli was knocked down and sacked more than he has ever been.

That being said, Eli should, and did, accept his share of the blame. He certainly did not have a good year, by any stretch. But the blame is shared here- WRs, OL and QB, as well as OC and lack of a running game.

To say the problems START with the QB is very naïve, IMO. I completely disagree.

didn't have much of a track record when he was given a mega-contract by Reese. I don't have confidence that Beatty will ever be very good.

With the current CBA and rookie salaries, drafting an OT in the first round would not be the salary cap killer it would have been under the old system.

Beatty will be here though 2015 based on his contract structure, but we should definitely draft a top OT prospect if available.

flexibilty to play right. Smith for the Cowboys is making 4 mil in the 3rd season of his rookie deal and started at RT and slid to LT. Giants can do this as well and Pugh was drafted in part for his versatility and can slide inside for a year or 2 or permanently depending on what happens with Beatty. Either way they need to have his possible replacement on the roster and go from there.

You make a good point. I guess I over valued how much Beatty was making, but I still think Reese backed himself into a corner by allowing him to reach free agency and then having to pay more for him when there were no other options for us at LT.

In comment 11425135 Randy in CT said:

Quote:

And it is pretty undeniable.

I am agreeing with Randee

its it Eli's fault we cant run the ball? even in 2011, we couldnt run and Eli was getting smoked
wake up

drafts since 2008 in rds 2-5 have sucked hard
thats where you stock your team with solid players for cheap

we have failed, so we have to overpay for FA to fill holes and then you get into trouble when A, they get hurt, or B. they under perform

and you get into Cap hell

see Dave Baas and Beatty for examples..

Green Bay has drafted almost their whole Roster.. we have too many FA cost us money and thats due to Draft failures

In comment 11425100 nomad1986 said:

Quote:

There were a lot of people in the national football media who immediately called out Reese for what they paid Beatty. Called it a way over pay and a panic move. I didn't agree. They were all correct and I was wrong again.

Spot on. Pat Kirwan was one of them. I fully agreed then too (and obviously still do).

Nobody is saying it didn't impact Eli's performance, but it's simply not an excuse to throw that many interceptions. This isn't the first time he's thrown a lot of interceptions either while having a solid Oline. Also Eli is not the first QB in the history of the NFL to have a poor Oline and no running game either. Eli has a level of accountability for a lot of his picks this year.

As for Beatty...I learned long ago that "hope" is not an option. Giants better draft his possible replacement in April or they will deserve whatever happens.

looks all world in NE and gets a big contract out of KC and is exposed. What changed? the players around Cassel. You put shit around a great QB like Archie Manning and the results are going to be shitty. The point is lets give Eli an NFL average Oline and a NFL average TE along with 2 NFL average RB's and see what we got

I think we are going to hear how he was injured in some way most of the year and gutted this terrible season out. It will be bullshit of course but I think its coming.

I understand that Beatty is the current BBI o-line whipping boy, but this is getting ridiculous.

Zero blame for Eli whatsoever. Talk about denial.

But so was the QB. A lot of bad throws and not all due to pressure. Keep telling yourself Eli played like a $100M QB. He's not the first QB to play behind a bad line. This team is not going to be a playoff team unless the play at QB gets better. 2011 Eli was great. But this was not 2011 Eli, that's for sure.

I'm not being naïve. You pay a guy $100M you expect a lot better play than we saw the past year and a half. I'm sorry, but that's the truth.

In comment 11425653 UberAlias said:

Quote:

I'm not being naïve. You pay a guy $100M you expect a lot better play than we saw the past year and a half. I'm sorry, but that's the truth.

Then PROTECT your $100 Million franchise player, give him a decent running game etc. Read Big Blue's latest post. When Eli had the pieces, he did pretty well. Or are two Super Bowl victories AND MVPs not enough for you?

Yes, you are being naïve, because you are lumping ALL of the blame on the QB without any consideration to the other parts of the offense.

Read my previous post- carefully. I stated Eli deserves some of the blame, but a true Giant fan recognizes the pieces were not in place for Eli to be as successful as he was in previous seasons.

Okay. I never said that, but thanks for making statements up to make your point.

This is rediculous. Are we talking about this year or are we talking about his vareer? I love Eli. But his play has been bad the past year and a half. If you want to have a Rreasonable discussion, the hyperbole please.

In comment 11425653 UberAlias said:

Quote:

I'm not being naïve.

No you are not being naive, you are being obtuse.

In comment 11425795 ed90631 said:

Quote:

In comment 11425653 UberAlias said: Quote: I'm not being naïve. No you are not being naive, you are being obtuse.

Because I believe Eli played poorly? I freaking give up. And you're a jackass.

You fucking dickhead. I never said shit to you and you come in insulting me because I have an opinion that differs from yours? Fuck you.

Look at Tom Brady this year and tell me if he has a running game?

Then report back.

Beatty is not being paid nearly what an all pro one makes. Based on how he played last year he deserved the deal he got. He had a lousy year. The whole line did. Hopefully we make some changes around him, and he bounces back.

outside of Pugh so I'll reserve judgement on Beatty until after next year. People like a good whipping boy, but don't realize that it's a team game and on the oline especially, playing together is crucial.

In comment 11425814 UberAlias said:

Quote:

You fucking dickhead. I never said shit to you and you come in insulting me because I have an opinion that differs from yours? Fuck you.

grow up.

In comment 11425983 Giants11 said:

Quote:

Beatty is not being paid nearly what an all pro one makes. Based on how he played last year he deserved the deal he got. He had a lousy year. The whole line did. Hopefully we make some changes around him, and he bounces back.

You don't pay players with about a year and a half starting experience 8 million a year. Nor do you obligate having to carry them for another 3 years. Beatty go his deal because Reese fucked up the O line like he worked for one of the other NFL teams. He was looking at a paper thin line with no other options due to limited options in FA and IMO he over valued the guy. Hence we have a guy who regressed badly and after 5 years in the NFL still needs to work on his "strength".

Funny before this year he had about 20 starts. So how is it even possible to honestly assume he could bounce back,when the sample size is almost 50-50 from good to horrible.

You believe in your players or you do not. What was your solution. Who were you going to get to replace him. If you were not replacing him, how much were you going to offer him. The LT market is what is - he did not get top player money. He got top 15 money. Bushrod got the same deal and is 4 years older

The NFL is about making decisions on players based upon 1 1/2 years of solid play and even less

The facts are his contract is middle of the road for LT and will get even lower after this year

Enough with this 'stud' or blue goose LT - in almost all cases, they get picked in the top 10 - go back and look at the draft history

After the Giants picks since 2009 and OT taken after

2009 - Nicks(29) E. Britton(39) Loadholdt(54) Vollmer(58)
2010 - JPP(15) Bulaga(23) Saffold(33) Beatles(45)
Ducasse(61) Brown(64)
2011 - Prince(19) Costanzo(22) Carpenter(25) Carimi(29)
Sherrod(32) Frankin(46) Ijalana(49)

Since you will bitch about Austin, here are the OT picked after him M. Gilbert(63) J. Reid(85) Barksdale(92)

2012 - Wilson(32) Shwartz(37) Glenn(41) Martin(42) Adams(56)
Stephenson(74)

Curious on who they missed on. Most NFL people even thought Glenn was not a LT - they all had Martin as the LT. Most of them above either are not LT or tried and failed LT

So of you are not paying Beatty, and having no FA options out there that are better, you look to the draft. Above shows their are no LT

In comment 11426546 ed90631 said:

Quote:

In comment 11425814 UberAlias said: Quote: You fucking dickhead. I never said shit to you and you come in insulting me because I have an opinion that differs from yours? Fuck you. grow up.

Um, you do realize your only post on the thread was an unprovoked insult? I suggest you follow your own advice.

But so did Eli.

And so did Wilson and nicks and Myers.

I can go on.

for even a severe break to be a full recovery, keep in mind Beatty's biggest issue was lack of strength. While a leg injury certainly wouldn't preclude upper body work, his leg strength isn't going to benefit from a few months (be it two months or six months) in a cast, and his mobility likely won't improve either. So the Giants have to go into the draft and FA with the need to find a starting-quality tackle regardless, and I wonder if that will impact what they do at 12.

Beatty had awful games, and some good ones.
If healthy - he has the talent to be a good NFL LT

Btw, this entire thread relies on a quote - here's some more substance on this from PFF in November

OL Rankings - ( New Window )

contract. The mistake, he claims, was in overestimating what the market would bear for LTs that year. Reese signed Beatty early in the year and as it turned out the price flattened out as time went on.

That is likely true, but it doesn't mean it was a bad decision at the time. The Giants knew they didn't want to lose Beatty to another team and signed him to a fair contract at the time.

Of the options at the time, losing him was not one they wanted to deal with. So whether they could have signed him for a million or so less per year is nothing but hindsight.

There is no question that Beatty far under performed his contract in year one. We will see how he plays going forward.

Obviously, the extent of his injury will be a big factor in what we do in the draft. I understand the sentiment that we need to upgrade, but I did not think drafting a LT was necessarily the right move considering Beatty's lack of versatility/contract/Pugh so good at RT....

No question priority 1 is to upgrade the OL. I just hope we can do that without having to eat Beatty's contract. He can still be a very good LT