was the lone bright spot on our line this year. I don't understand why everyone is so inclined to move him in the future. Is it really just bc of the length (or lack thereof) of his arms!?
Has more to do with Beatty. We need a new LT and are stuck with Beatty due to his contract. If Pugh can play guard (and maybe he would be a great guard too) than we can at least get some use out of Beatty since we are paying him a fortune. It has nothing to do with Pugh and his ability to play RT.
The only other OL that had a positive rating for the season was Stephen Goodin and that's basically just Sunday's game. Highest rated offensive player this year? Jerrell Jernigan (8.6) who narrowly beat out John Connor (8.5). Only 8 players were in the green for the season. Top 5 Defensive players were Will Hill (15.7), Justin Tuck (15.5), Linval Joseph (10.5), Jonathan Hankins (8.0) and Antrel Rolle (7.4)
Or was it that we had capable TE and RBs that could help? Coming off a major injury I think the odds are less that he reverts back than he continues his below ave play.
hopes that Beatty will come back from the injury - eventually - stronger than before, and determined to prove himself. The uncertainty, though, will force JR to draft an OT high, which is not a bad thing.
people will remember this when 1) making points that Reese's drafts are terrible and 2) completely hating on picks on draft day
1) It seems like people basically take for granted that we get good players in the 1st round. Teams, pretty much all teams, draft busts from time to time in the 1st round. Good teams like the 49ers do - their #1 pick from 2 years ago is currently something like the #5 WR on the Chiefs. Teams with much higher picks with the Giants draft busts. 1st round picks are not automatic good players
2) Pugh was one of the most frequently cited "throw the remote" players from last year's draft discussion. Ogletree was another one, and he's done pretty well this year.
was very good a year ago. He has a terrible season (along with most of our oline) but why does nobody think he could revert to his former self?
No he wasn't. The bar for very good here at BBI is so low its astounding. He was rated by one service the 10th best tackle. Is that very good? was he light years ahead of the guys from 11-15? He was all over the place this year and down right embarrassed as recently as the Detroit game. How 1 year of even supposed very good assume he will bounce back to being average? He;s getting a high paycheck and coming of a broken leg I assume he will mbe worse until he fully heals sometime next summer.
The OL is a disaster still with basically only Pugh back for sure at the start of next season.
out of 60 tackles in the NFL seems very good to me. Even if he rebounds to only be the 20th best tackle next season, the Giants OL would seem to be in good shape on the ends with two above average tackles.
He was an above average pass blocker and a below average run blocker. Plus, he got more TE help than any LT I can recall. Reese signed him more on potential than on past production (only one year as starter too).
He was nowhere near this poor last season no matter what you Â
could possibly think about him as a player. Just because a player has a bad year doesn't mean the sky is falling.
This is why I thought maybe he was playing this year with an undisclosed injury. Seems every year we find out right after the season that guys like Snee get surgeries after playing with injuries all year.
people will remember this when 1) making points that Reese's drafts are terrible and 2) completely hating on picks on draft day
1) It seems like people basically take for granted that we get good players in the 1st round. Teams, pretty much all teams, draft busts from time to time in the 1st round. Good teams like the 49ers do - their #1 pick from 2 years ago is currently something like the #5 WR on the Chiefs. Teams with much higher picks with the Giants draft busts. 1st round picks are not automatic good players
2) Pugh was one of the most frequently cited "throw the remote" players from last year's draft discussion. Ogletree was another one, and he's done pretty well this year.
I think most people here give JR well deserved credit for his 1st Rounders. The issue is that they have gotten very little from rounds 2 through 7 over the past 5 years. from 2008 to 2012 only 7 of the 28 picks are in the NFL, and of the 7 only Joseph and Thomas were impact players. 2 of 28 is pretty poor drafting and is why they have no depth, no young OL pushing out fading vets and shitty special teams.
and realized it was a mistake. If that is true and he goes back to what he was an above average pass blocker and an average to below average run blocker, I'd sign up for that in a NY minute and concentrate on the interior of the Oline
I could see us drafting an OT in the 1st and then moving Beatty either to the right side or to OG. Beatty could use the help he'd get on the right side or on the interior line, where a C could help him out in some circumstances.
and realized it was a mistake. If that is true and he goes back to what he was an above average pass blocker and an average to below average run blocker, I'd sign up for that in a NY minute and concentrate on the interior of the Oline
I hope he gets better too, but there is no way his problems relate to trying to be a copy-cat. That was just a lame excuse Beatty provided the media to either get them off his back or he talked himself into believing this was what was wrong.
I mean we actually have O-line coaches and if they all of sudden saw Beatty changing his 'style and technique' I would have liked to think this would have been sorted during the summer or immediately after the first game.
I was a little surprised at his selection because he wasn't projected to the first round. Once Reese explained Pugh I was on board and really hoped he play well.
Since Pugh was a OLT for his entire college career, it wouldn't surprise me to see him resume that position. When anyone suggests he becomes a guard or center I just don't agree at all.
Get a freegin' guard or center elsewhere and leave Pugh at tackle for the next 10 years.
Josh...nobody is saying Beatty cannot bounce back. Â
I'm sure the Giants are hoping he does. However "WHAT IF" he doesn't? What is your backup plan?
Are you willing to throw away 2014 on "hoping" he bounces back?
That's not smart if you are, and I would hope that's not Reese's thinking.
Draft a Tackle that projects to LT but can start at RT. Teams do this all the time that have been in similar circumstances. Pugh is flexible and that was one of the attributes stated about him coming out. I'm pretty sure he could be just as good playing at Guard as Tackle for a couple of years until we get further info on Beatty whether he ends up being a solid starter or a guy we have to let go in a year or two.
Moving Pugh isn't a knock on his, if anything it's a credit to him. Deihl was able to give the same flexibility to the Giants Oline for years.
Pugh = deihl 2.0
the Giants will probably feel compelled to draft a OT in round 1 with Beatty breaking his leg and his lousy 2013 season.
The Giants cannot afford a good veteran tackle and that leaves only 1 way to get one. Could they risk drafting a tackle in round #2? That's something to consider between now and May.
Imagine how much more badly Eli would have been hit if he wasnt very good. Every game would have been like Carolina and Seattle.Uggghhh.
I don't know how the organization is evaluating Beatty both before, and after the injury Sunday(the extent and its affect on his play), but I have to think a veteran LT will be signed, and a bruiser LG will be acquired(draft a day 1 or FA), especially since no one of the OL projects has stepped up.
Are we doomed for Pugh's entire tenure as a Giant Â
You build around him not move him around. If we could get a quality LT I would try to move Beatty to guard. He has upside, and how much worse could he do than the others we have in the guard spot now.
keep restocking the trenches. Not just for Eli but for Andre Brown, who can definitely be a reliable 800-1000 yard back.
That assumes he makes an entire season injury free for the first time in his life. Big if. I like Brown, but they can't go into the season relying on him to be healthy. RB has o be addressed either in the draft or FA.
(1) I think Reese absolutely drafts the best OLT available in Round 1.
(2) We then ask Beatty to take a major salary cut and move him to RT.
(3) I'd like to see if Pugh can handle C for us, if not then he's our RG.
(4) We draft the best available OL, regardless of position in Round 2.
(1) I think Reese absolutely drafts the best OLT available in Round 1.
(2) We then ask Beatty to take a major salary cut and move him to RT.
(3) I'd like to see if Pugh can handle C for us, if not then he's our RG.
(4) We draft the best available OL, regardless of position in Round 2.
don, if we draft a Tackle, I could see them wanting to break him in at RT while having Pugh slide over to LT, or if Beatty comes back, letting the guy we draft either play RT or an inside psotion for a year, like we did with Pettitgout.
He just had a putrid season... And finished with a terrible injury. It's basically a disaster. If he heals up... It's going to be difficult to imagine him regaining his 2013 form... let alone the 2012 performance that got him paid in the first place. He's likely going to to PUP his way to 2015 and become a cap casualty... With dead money lingering...
Can someone who is more knowledgable than I tell me Â
how it is a bad thing for Pugh to at least develop some skills playing Guard.
Do we really think that will screw up his overall development as a lineman? Besides, isn't versatility amongst lineman a real good thing to have on the team?
Pugh doesn't appear to be overwhelmed in year one and we have been told he is very intelligent as well, so I would promote it...even if we ultimately keep him at Tackle.
You want guys with a mean streak playing inside. Aside from that... He's blossomed at Tackle. You stick him at Tackle and let him continue to be a stud for 10 years. You don't worry about him.
fought his way into the lineup at Guard... moved to Tackle out of need... honed his craft and did a nice job for a number of years... Pugh is a 1st round pick.. who so far has played like a first round pick.
If some blue goose LT lands in your lap and Beatty comes back healthy... and wins a tackle spot from Pugh... But I don't think Beatty is going to beat anyone out... And I don't see Pugh losing a Tackle job in a camp competition either.
I wouldn't be surprised if Pugh ends up being the Left Tackle of this team for the next 6 years or so.
My comparison relates to there value to the team along the Oline. That's what Pugh possibly represents to the Gianst right now. Giants will leverage his flexibility ala Deihl...ala Boothe...ala Seubert.
out of 60 tackles in the NFL seems very good to me. Even if he rebounds to only be the 20th best tackle next season, the Giants OL would seem to be in good shape on the ends with two above average tackles.
I would suggest out of 30 starters 10th is on the average side. I would also suggest that this year when they needed him to actually be very good he shit the bed. Are you going to rate him better than a FA rookie or some 5th round pick sure but I would suggest out of 32 starting left tackless Beatty at best will never be amongst the top 10 again. He's also in his prime. He should be better than rookies and long time guys who are nearing the latter part of his career.
Lastly since when is one year a sure fire predicator of long term success in anything. Never mind football.
I know he has flexibility becuase that was part of his scouting report Â
That was also what the Giants stated about him after he was drafted. Looking at his skillsets he looks like he can transition. Do you think he's less talented than Deihl???
LMAO...The guy is more talented and smart enough with great feet to play Guard or tackle.
is that 10ths out of all starting tackles or 10th out of the 32 starting left tackles. Either way, it's above average. If you are trying to convince us that 10th out of 32 is only average then can you explain to us why the similarly ranked Eli, Nicks, and Cruz weren't considered "average" at their positions last off-season?
A young left tackle ended the season as the 10th ranked player according to PFF, received a contract that made him the 12th highest paid by average annual value according to OvertheCap.com, a contract which ended up being was on the low end of left tackle contracts last off-season, and people here are pretending the Giants panicked and overpaid.
and I wouldn't mind considering moving him over to the LT spot if Beatty doesn't improve.
However. I don't know if Beatty can play RT all that well, and hes not suited to be guard. He gets another year to play there. The problem this year was more so on the interior of this OL. Eli had no pocket at all to step up into. This is the #1 priority in correcting. Maybe you can find a OT/G in the 2nd round, someone who can anchor the middle but also fill in at the OT position if needed. Grab 2 more FA OL, bring back Boothe on the cheap and we have a functional OL again.
I think the OL can be fixed in the 2nd round and later given the major concerns are on the interior of this OL. Beatty and Pugh are our Tackles for the future, you can't write off Beatty because of one bad season, in which the entirety of the OL looked like shit, and we had no real TE to come in a lay chips down.
every week when I watch other games, I see guys playing oline at the same level as the Giants. Our favorite whipping boys/turnstiles Guy Whimper and Justice Wiston are still in the league. Considering what's out there and watching Robert Mathis still beating guys with spin moves after 11 years in the league, I wonder if you guys have a clear view on what's an "average at best" left tackle is worth?
PFF had Beatty rated as the 8th best LT in the NFL, the 11th best tackle overall and the NFC's 2nd best LT.
They "credited" Beatty with allowing just 3 sacks and no QB hits all year. Conversely, the #1 LT in the NFL, Joe Staley, was credited with 8 sacks (and much of the year was protecting a mobile QB).
Even more encouraging (if you trust PFF at all) is that Beatty was nearly equally competent in pass and run blocking.
He HAS to be fixable. And if it's having a blocking TE, a RB who can chip, a more familiar center making the line calls, or just his head who knows, but he has to be fixed - that is the path of least resistance toward fixing the OL.
He looks weak and seems to be hanging on even when he's making his blocks. He's average at best no matter what the stats suggest and if you looked a little deeper then just stats you'd realize that sacks are also impacted by scheme and the QB's. Browns haven't had good QBs or very good skill players, so yeah they'll probably have more sacks.
tons of factors in sacks allowed, I'm not putting that (the lack of sacks) all on Beatty and PFF tries to be intelligent about it.
If you read their "how we grade" section on their site it explains it, if they see Eli has 6 or 7 seconds then takes off and moves into a sack by the guy Beatty is covering they might not give Beatty a negative grade or even a sack allowed on the play - necessarily.
Last year when I watched Beatty I thought he looked competent in all facets. Not a star per se, but definitely didn't think the Giants would need to worry about LT for a while.
I watched Kerrigan bullrush this guy 3 times in the first half,twice leading to rushed throws.I didn't watch the 2nd.Than I come on here and read how well he played according to PFF.
I would take it slow with Pugh,he's done ok.
PJAC...now that's an accurate desciption...he was Â
"competent" in 2012...So what's the upside if he took such a big step backwards this year?....Return to competency?
I would think the Giants are aiming higher than that and everything on offense rides on this Oline. They will make this the #1 priority this offseason just like the run D last year.
And that excuse that Beatty used was one of the weakest excuses I've ever heard of in my life.
He spends year blocking one way that got him a contract then he switched up after signing the contract?
I'm not buying that one at akk, he better rehab and get in the weight room and earn his PT. Giants should still draft his possible replacement in the first.
who suggest moving Pugh to any position other than left or right tackle are foolish.
Tackle, especially LOT, is the hardest of the positions to play well on an Oline. When you have a guy that is very good at tackle, you leave him there! You do not move him!
If you have a hole to fill at guard or center, you either draft or sign the guard or center. Period.
I'd seriously consider drafting a tackle in round one or two now that Beatty has a broken leg. It would be another blunder to hope Beatty makes it back and plays well in 2014. You take your drafted tackle and try like hell to get him up to speed at right tackle. Move Pugh back to his natural position, left tackle.
Whatever happens after that with Beatty....happens. Change his position, use him as a backup, whatever. If he magically returns to his 2012 form, have him compete for a starting job.
Nice that people hijack a positive thread and turn this into a Beatty thread. Dont move Pugh unless you need to. As someone above said, build around him. And as another said, says a lot about losing to move up in the draft. This type of reward should shut those people up but it wont. We got an excellent player and how many expected to be awesome OLs were picked ahead of him.
Congrats on him being the lone bright spot on the OL and possibly the whole offense.
1) It seems like people basically take for granted that we get good players in the 1st round. Teams, pretty much all teams, draft busts from time to time in the 1st round. Good teams like the 49ers do - their #1 pick from 2 years ago is currently something like the #5 WR on the Chiefs. Teams with much higher picks with the Giants draft busts. 1st round picks are not automatic good players
2) Pugh was one of the most frequently cited "throw the remote" players from last year's draft discussion. Ogletree was another one, and he's done pretty well this year.
No he wasn't. The bar for very good here at BBI is so low its astounding. He was rated by one service the 10th best tackle. Is that very good? was he light years ahead of the guys from 11-15? He was all over the place this year and down right embarrassed as recently as the Detroit game. How 1 year of even supposed very good assume he will bounce back to being average? He;s getting a high paycheck and coming of a broken leg I assume he will mbe worse until he fully heals sometime next summer.
The OL is a disaster still with basically only Pugh back for sure at the start of next season.
1) It seems like people basically take for granted that we get good players in the 1st round. Teams, pretty much all teams, draft busts from time to time in the 1st round. Good teams like the 49ers do - their #1 pick from 2 years ago is currently something like the #5 WR on the Chiefs. Teams with much higher picks with the Giants draft busts. 1st round picks are not automatic good players
2) Pugh was one of the most frequently cited "throw the remote" players from last year's draft discussion. Ogletree was another one, and he's done pretty well this year.
I think most people here give JR well deserved credit for his 1st Rounders. The issue is that they have gotten very little from rounds 2 through 7 over the past 5 years. from 2008 to 2012 only 7 of the 28 picks are in the NFL, and of the 7 only Joseph and Thomas were impact players. 2 of 28 is pretty poor drafting and is why they have no depth, no young OL pushing out fading vets and shitty special teams.
I hope he gets better too, but there is no way his problems relate to trying to be a copy-cat. That was just a lame excuse Beatty provided the media to either get them off his back or he talked himself into believing this was what was wrong.
I mean we actually have O-line coaches and if they all of sudden saw Beatty changing his 'style and technique' I would have liked to think this would have been sorted during the summer or immediately after the first game.
Since Pugh was a OLT for his entire college career, it wouldn't surprise me to see him resume that position. When anyone suggests he becomes a guard or center I just don't agree at all.
Get a freegin' guard or center elsewhere and leave Pugh at tackle for the next 10 years.
Are you willing to throw away 2014 on "hoping" he bounces back?
That's not smart if you are, and I would hope that's not Reese's thinking.
Draft a Tackle that projects to LT but can start at RT. Teams do this all the time that have been in similar circumstances. Pugh is flexible and that was one of the attributes stated about him coming out. I'm pretty sure he could be just as good playing at Guard as Tackle for a couple of years until we get further info on Beatty whether he ends up being a solid starter or a guy we have to let go in a year or two.
Moving Pugh isn't a knock on his, if anything it's a credit to him. Deihl was able to give the same flexibility to the Giants Oline for years.
Pugh = deihl 2.0
The Giants cannot afford a good veteran tackle and that leaves only 1 way to get one. Could they risk drafting a tackle in round #2? That's something to consider between now and May.
I don't know how the organization is evaluating Beatty both before, and after the injury Sunday(the extent and its affect on his play), but I have to think a veteran LT will be signed, and a bruiser LG will be acquired(draft a day 1 or FA), especially since no one of the OL projects has stepped up.
That assumes he makes an entire season injury free for the first time in his life. Big if. I like Brown, but they can't go into the season relying on him to be healthy. RB has o be addressed either in the draft or FA.
(2) We then ask Beatty to take a major salary cut and move him to RT.
(3) I'd like to see if Pugh can handle C for us, if not then he's our RG.
(4) We draft the best available OL, regardless of position in Round 2.
I'm think Pughe learns fast and will be even better next year no matter where we put him.
(2) We then ask Beatty to take a major salary cut and move him to RT.
(3) I'd like to see if Pugh can handle C for us, if not then he's our RG.
(4) We draft the best available OL, regardless of position in Round 2.
don, if we draft a Tackle, I could see them wanting to break him in at RT while having Pugh slide over to LT, or if Beatty comes back, letting the guy we draft either play RT or an inside psotion for a year, like we did with Pettitgout.
Do we really think that will screw up his overall development as a lineman? Besides, isn't versatility amongst lineman a real good thing to have on the team?
Pugh doesn't appear to be overwhelmed in year one and we have been told he is very intelligent as well, so I would promote it...even if we ultimately keep him at Tackle.
The guy has quick feet, smooth motion and is a natural tackle and you move him to guard to for what reason?
If some blue goose LT lands in your lap and Beatty comes back healthy... and wins a tackle spot from Pugh... But I don't think Beatty is going to beat anyone out... And I don't see Pugh losing a Tackle job in a camp competition either.
I wouldn't be surprised if Pugh ends up being the Left Tackle of this team for the next 6 years or so.
I would suggest out of 30 starters 10th is on the average side. I would also suggest that this year when they needed him to actually be very good he shit the bed. Are you going to rate him better than a FA rookie or some 5th round pick sure but I would suggest out of 32 starting left tackless Beatty at best will never be amongst the top 10 again. He's also in his prime. He should be better than rookies and long time guys who are nearing the latter part of his career.
Lastly since when is one year a sure fire predicator of long term success in anything. Never mind football.
LMAO...The guy is more talented and smart enough with great feet to play Guard or tackle.
Andre Brown reliable?… For getting injured, absolutely.
A young left tackle ended the season as the 10th ranked player according to PFF, received a contract that made him the 12th highest paid by average annual value according to OvertheCap.com, a contract which ended up being was on the low end of left tackle contracts last off-season, and people here are pretending the Giants panicked and overpaid.
However. I don't know if Beatty can play RT all that well, and hes not suited to be guard. He gets another year to play there. The problem this year was more so on the interior of this OL. Eli had no pocket at all to step up into. This is the #1 priority in correcting. Maybe you can find a OT/G in the 2nd round, someone who can anchor the middle but also fill in at the OT position if needed. Grab 2 more FA OL, bring back Boothe on the cheap and we have a functional OL again.
I think the OL can be fixed in the 2nd round and later given the major concerns are on the interior of this OL. Beatty and Pugh are our Tackles for the future, you can't write off Beatty because of one bad season, in which the entirety of the OL looked like shit, and we had no real TE to come in a lay chips down.
They "credited" Beatty with allowing just 3 sacks and no QB hits all year. Conversely, the #1 LT in the NFL, Joe Staley, was credited with 8 sacks (and much of the year was protecting a mobile QB).
Even more encouraging (if you trust PFF at all) is that Beatty was nearly equally competent in pass and run blocking.
He HAS to be fixable. And if it's having a blocking TE, a RB who can chip, a more familiar center making the line calls, or just his head who knows, but he has to be fixed - that is the path of least resistance toward fixing the OL.
This assumes he's healed from the broken leg.
If you read their "how we grade" section on their site it explains it, if they see Eli has 6 or 7 seconds then takes off and moves into a sack by the guy Beatty is covering they might not give Beatty a negative grade or even a sack allowed on the play - necessarily.
Last year when I watched Beatty I thought he looked competent in all facets. Not a star per se, but definitely didn't think the Giants would need to worry about LT for a while.
They "credited" Beatty with allowing just 3 sacks and no QB hits all year.
I would take it slow with Pugh,he's done ok.
I would think the Giants are aiming higher than that and everything on offense rides on this Oline. They will make this the #1 priority this offseason just like the run D last year.
And that excuse that Beatty used was one of the weakest excuses I've ever heard of in my life.
He spends year blocking one way that got him a contract then he switched up after signing the contract?
I'm not buying that one at akk, he better rehab and get in the weight room and earn his PT. Giants should still draft his possible replacement in the first.
Tackle, especially LOT, is the hardest of the positions to play well on an Oline. When you have a guy that is very good at tackle, you leave him there! You do not move him!
If you have a hole to fill at guard or center, you either draft or sign the guard or center. Period.
I'd seriously consider drafting a tackle in round one or two now that Beatty has a broken leg. It would be another blunder to hope Beatty makes it back and plays well in 2014. You take your drafted tackle and try like hell to get him up to speed at right tackle. Move Pugh back to his natural position, left tackle.
Whatever happens after that with Beatty....happens. Change his position, use him as a backup, whatever. If he magically returns to his 2012 form, have him compete for a starting job.
Congrats on him being the lone bright spot on the OL and possibly the whole offense.