and the rest of his staff next week. At least we now have a time frame for when we can expect to hear something. #fingerscrossed
Quote:
@MikeGarafolo 4m
Yes + rest of staff next wk. RT @RapSheet: Coughlin to meet with ownership & Reese on Thurs to discuss the offseason, possible staff changes
I'd love to be a fly on the wall in that meeting. Â
tends to make me think he's coming back.
Knowing TCs loyalty, it may also mean 'but if you make me fire someone, these are the things you need to do in the off-season, but I won't be the beneficiary of them'.(Sort of like the exit meeting upon termination or retirement)
RE: I'd love to be a fly on the wall in that meeting. Â
Ownership needs time to line-up replacements for Gilbride and Quinn. IMHO, Coughlin gets the chance to know who he's going to work with and decides whether he wants to come back.
some people might consider a new offense by itself to be a sweeping change. But do you really think you can retain the HC and OC, both of whom support the current system, and still end up with a new offense?
I got the impression that he absolutely intended to keep Reese, and that he wants Coughlin to stay (possibly only if he agrees to some coaching staff changes).
It seemed to be that the changes he was looking for involved:
1. Improving the O Line
2. Pushing for giving young guys a chance to play. He specifically mentioned that it shouldn't have taken 3 years for Jernigan to get a chance.
3. Possibly changing draft strategy somewhat, by drafting less high risk/high reward type guys.
and rebuilding the Oline will have huge benefits for 2014.
There's a lot of player moves that need to be made also but OC and Oline improvement will really help. I hope Coughlin is OK with a new OC. As much as he has his faults, he's a great head coach.
tends to make me think he's coming back.
Knowing TCs loyalty, it may also mean 'but if you make me fire someone, these are the things you need to do in the off-season, but I won't be the beneficiary of them'.(Sort of like the exit meeting upon termination or retirement)
I am certainly in the camp of a new OC. That said, if they make that move and TC agrees, I hope that he communicates to them... "well shit draft me some talent in the areas we are weak at drafting..."...
That piece has to come into focus because its not ALL on one piece of the org that is for sure.
"Ownership meeting with Reese and Coughlin on Thursday."
I wouldn't assume Tom Coughlin is the only two-time champion who will be forced to sacrifice loyal lieutenants this week. If Gilbride (x2), Quinn and Ryan are held accountable for crappy results, Ross seems like a good candidate to share the gallows as the pound of flesh John Mara extracts from Jerry Reese. The Accorsi proteges, Abrams and Sternfeld, are probably safe, although it might depend on the alternatives available.
Another open question is how deeply the family wants to undercut Reese (and others) by inserting Chris Mara into personnel decisions. Having lived through the 1970s with this team, I don't really want a Mara buying the groceries.
I just did a little quick research. Reese is 50 and started as a Giants' scout in 1994. John Schneider, Seahawk GM, is 42 and started as a scout in 1993. So I don't know if age and experience are that much of a factor. Some people have a better aptitude for player evaluation than others. OTOH, what I read here is that Reese was a pretty good college scout and that most of his #1 picks have done ok. So maybe the problem is Ross or Chris Mara. If we keep Reese around, I'd want to see him take over the entire draft/scouting process if that's his strength. Get rid of Ross, who may be going anyway according to rumors. And have someone else handle the business side of the FO. I'm also not that sure how good Reese is at evaluating UFAs. Maybe he's just had his hands tied by cap restrictions. But he created a lot of those restrictions himself with the contracts he's given Giants' players. So basically, restrict his job to what he's good at. But that might be considered a demotion, so I don't know if that happens.
Reese appears to be one of the better GMs in the game and he is young. Â
So when he makes his first few major mistakes you can let the young GM learn or fire his ass. A logical calm assumption would be that a young GM is more likely to learn from mistakes than be too stubborn to adapt. In general thats why companies sometimes push for youth and try to force out guys on the verge of retirement. They are much more adaptable.
some positive developments come out of the meetings, including an understanding on the needed changes to the offense and some minor issues it seems between the scouting/development areas.
does not make as many of the decisions as people on BBI seem to think. He has a huge say in the scouting/roster management areas, but he also doesn't decide how guys get developed or the issue of playing time. I also don't know where this idea that Reese is a shot-caller on coaches comes from. Ownership has and always will be the ultimate voice on that area.
Coughlin is also absolutely every bit as responsible for the crap-fest the OL became this year as Reese is.
One of the things I find most problematic is that TC doesn't recognize when coaches/schemes just aren't working. History has shown he doesn't come to these conclusions himself, he is FORCED to make a change - Hufnagel, Tim Lewis, Sheriden, and now Gilbride.
That's not the mark of a flexible mind that adapts systems to players, it's one of someone who thinks they know it all and will stick up for his buddies, hold status quo tight, and run their devised system till kingdom come, regardless of it it's broken or a proper fit. IMO that's a huge indictment of him...
That's part of my reason for advocating for a fresh coaching staff that is willing to not be egoic in this regard. The genius of Bill Belechick is that he doesn't ram the round peg in the square hole. He finds his players' strengths, and maximizes them... this changes year to year depending on personnel, as he's expertly shown this year.
That's the kind of coach I want. Someone younger. Energetic. Adaptable. Who will let the players PLAY to their natural ability, not throwing a stick in the spoke of their talents by forcing overtly complex schemes on players.
Regarding Gilbride being fired... The ENTIRE SCHEME has to change. It cannot under any circumstance just be the play caller. The issues on offense are SYSTEMIC, and do not only occur because Gilbride happens to be standing on the sidelines.
This type of change is a big one. Is TC going to want to stick through that... does he even support it?
While the time isn't "great" to send TC off, Hollywood scripts are rarely written in sports. I think now is as good a time as any to make the move.
If played GM, and we removed the emotion of the SB win a few years ago, and examined the situation as it stood today. 4/5 years no playoffs. Losing season. And your franchise QB sitting on the peak of his prime, you almost have to make a switch now, to start fresh and build something immediately for the next decade plus before our franchise QB gets older. It's the QB I'm looking to make sure gets taken care of...
If TC stays a system change MUST occur. But I would strongly consider coming up with an exit strategy for all.
Coughlin told the group he's keeping Gilbride.... Â
the offense. So, let me try to understand what is being proposed. Keep Coughlin but tell him he can't follow his coaching philosophy.
How would that work, exactly? Force Coughlin to hire an offensive coordinator who runs an system Coughlin doesn't believe in - and tell Coughlin "hands off" (i.e. to assure Coughlin doesn't turn it back into his own system)?
What is the function of keeping Coughlin at that point? He isn't even a head coach anymore. It's just nuts. Part ways with the man if you don't like his system. He's a big boy. He'll retire happily or find another job elsewhere. But it just makes ZERO SENSE to keep Coughlin as your head coach, but tell him you don't like his coaching philosophies. Frankly, that's just idiotic.
I just did a little quick research. Reese is 50 and started as a Giants' scout in 1994. John Schneider, Seahawk GM, is 42 and started as a scout in 1993. So I don't know if age and experience are that much of a factor. Some people have a better aptitude for player evaluation than others. OTOH, what I read here is that Reese was a pretty good college scout and that most of his #1 picks have done ok. So maybe the problem is Ross or Chris Mara. If we keep Reese around, I'd want to see him take over the entire draft/scouting process if that's his strength. Get rid of Ross, who may be going anyway according to rumors. And have someone else handle the business side of the FO. I'm also not that sure how good Reese is at evaluating UFAs. Maybe he's just had his hands tied by cap restrictions. But he created a lot of those restrictions himself with the contracts he's given Giants' players. So basically, restrict his job to what he's good at. But that might be considered a demotion, so I don't know if that happens.
My thinking is roughly along the same lines.
I'm starting to wonder if Ross should go, and Chris Mara and Reese swap certain duties.They can juggle titles about to handle the PR end of it.Bottom line, overall an expansion of Reeses duties, but restrictions in certain areas, business in particular that Chris might handle better.
i think tempers are a little bit short because they made a concerted effort to get rid of injury prone guys last year. It was basically the theme of the offseason. No more Bradshaw, Canty, Boley, Phillips and Osi in the trainers room all week.
But it was just more of the same this year. Worse. Down to their 3rd string OL. 5th string RB. JPP. Webster. Nicks. Hynoski. T2.
It just never stops. Injuries are a part of the game but there has to be a reason why almost annually the Giants are near the top of games missed by starters. Seems like every year the team is compromised before camp breaks and this year was no different despite the fact Coughlin clearly runs one of the lightest camps in the NFL
Replacing the offensive coordinator with anyone won't change anything ... and if it does change, then the change will presumably be against Coughlin's coaching philosophy/strategy ... and what's the point? If you don't like Coughlin's football philosophy/strategy, then part ways. But it doesn't make any sense to tell your coach, we like YOU but can't stand your strategy/approach. How does that possibly make sense?
I suspect Kevin (above 12:59) may have come the closest to figuring out what's going on. Because clearly something over and above is going on. Surely Tom wouldn't have to go and talk to his family about firing his OC. In fact I suspect the real isn't Gilbride but what comes after. And it wouldn't surprise me if the Giants are a) proposing not only to change OCs, but that they will choose the new guy AND the new guy will run the offense. It also wouldn't be a total surprise if the Giants are telling Tom that they aren't going to fire him, but that they are not going to extend him past next season.
I have suspected for awhile that the Giants might be conflicted about TC in that they really don't want to fire him per se; its just not the Giants way to fire a coach after a 7-9 season, their first losing season in a decade, and just two years out from a Super Bowl. That's what the Detroits and Clevelands of this world do (of course if they ever got close to a SB without buying a ticket). But Mara and Reese are smart guys who have been around football for a long time and if guys look you and I can see something is broken but nothing is being done to fix it then they sure can too.
(As an aside people have asked why TC wouldn't make changes to what obviously wasn't working, but go back to 2011 and for 15 plus weeks we saw pretty much the same thing we saw this year until Victor popped off that amazing run versus the Jets to get things turned around and the rest is history. I have gone so far as to say that not only did the Giants appear to be not well coached the past two years, but they didn't appear to be all that well coached in 2011 and it was almost like the team won that year despite TC. In fact about the only thing he can be given credit for what he stuck to his guns and preached stay the course!)
There are precedents for a coach changing philosophies. Â
Don Shula was probably the most dramatic example. We went from running the ball 200+ yards/game in 1972 to throwing for 300+ in 1984. On the other hand, Shula was a relative youngster: just 53 when he put the offense on Dan Marino's back. Besides, the NFL changed dramatically between 1972 and 1984. Shula changed with it.
I think Sullivan is being brought in so Coughlin can retire next year and they have their guy in place. They want the next coach already on staff without having to go through a search.
Yes they'll briefly talk to Fewell to satisfy the league rules but if Sullivan is brought in, it's not to be the OC. It's to be the next Head coach.
This is going to be a dicey situation. It clearly sounds like Mara and Reese will force TC to make changes, big changes, specifically on offense.
How will TC react? We don't know.
And the Sullivan as HC in waiting stuff: Can we please stop that? If what Colin says is accurate, they want an OC that will run his own show/system. That's not Sullivan. He's not the best person for the position when you have a potential candidate pool of: Norv Turner & Chud, and if things go south with TC, Bill O'Brien & Ken Whisenhunt.
Again, I expect TC back..But I don't think that's a lock at this point.
Not that I particularly want Fewell as head coach either. Â
It's just that Sullivan is basically a young version of Coughlin, and has almost no exposure to any pro (or even major college) offense other than Coughlin's. He did hang around for a year under Musgrave in Jacksonville as a QC assistant after Del Rio replaced Coughlin, but that hardly qualifies him as a West Coast Offense guru.
Speaking of the WCO, one QB on the roster who appears fairly well-suited to that offense is Ryan Nassib. So if a WCO guy takes over as OC, it might suggest that Nassib has a future here - though obviously not an immediate one.
RE: There are precedents for a coach changing philosophies. Â
Don Shula was probably the most dramatic example. We went from running the ball 200+ yards/game in 1972 to throwing for 300+ in 1984. On the other hand, Shula was a relative youngster: just 53 when he put the offense on Dan Marino's back. Besides, the NFL changed dramatically between 1972 and 1984. Shula changed with it.
I never said anything about coaches changing philosophies ... in fact, anyone good at what they do is always refining and adapting ... that's what makes you expert at what you do.
Totally different, however, for someone else to decide what to believe/become. The greatest coaches of all time - Lombardi, Landry, Belichick, Parcells, whomever - seriously doubt anyone dictated to them what style of football they had to play. Afterall, was there really someone so presumptuous as to believe he knew more about football strategy than Lombardi? Landry? I seriously doubt it.
Again, nothing wrong with moving in a different direction. I think it's uncalled for and would simply extend the time for a recovery, since the overhaul would simply be that more thorough. But, I would also understand it. The Coughlin era has to end sometime and perhaps now is the time. If so, do it.
But it simply makes zero sense to keep a coach but not let him coach. Its completely disfunctional and the result will be reflective of that disfunctionality.
I think Sullivan is being brought in so Coughlin can retire next year and they have their guy in place. They want the next coach already on staff without having to go through a search.
Yes they'll briefly talk to Fewell to satisfy the league rules but if Sullivan is brought in, it's not to be the OC. It's to be the next Head coach.
Cane, I sure hope you're wrong. That would just be a complete waste of a 2014 season.
Sullivan is coming in to be Coughlin's future replacement. I'm not in favor of that at all, and don't see why that's even a thought that it's on the table. What has Sullivan really done, WR coach, QB coach, then moved on to Tampa only to fail as an OC. I say let's freshen this place up with new faces and some new ideas.
Would be fired by most teams
For not getting oline and cb..
Web played 1 game..horsey 2
Snee and baas and diehl were
Injured and Pugh was only rookie.
No fa oline.?
seem to embrace the Redskin, Brown, Raider, etc. way of doing thing.
Overreact to the present moment, make change for the sake of change.
I like the Giants way better.
What way is the Giants' way exactly? This is somewhat of an unprecedented situation. A 10 year coach with two Lombardi trophies whose teams have played poorly for the past season and a half and have failed to make the playoffs 4 out of the past 5 seasons. Not sure what the Giants' way is under such circumstances?
I hope Coughlin decides to retire, i would love to see us Â
seem to embrace the Redskin, Brown, Raider, etc. way of doing thing.
Overreact to the present moment, make change for the sake of change.
I like the Giants way better.
What way is the Giants' way exactly? This is somewhat of an unprecedented situation. A 10 year coach with two Lombardi trophies whose teams have played poorly for the past season and a half and have failed to make the playoffs 4 out of the past 5 seasons. Not sure what the Giants' way is under such circumstances?
Not overreacting to the present. If they decided change needs to by made, they'll come to that conclusion collectively, and after a cool-off period. It won't just be because the fans are upset, or because they think TC lost the ability to run a team. I think they should probably move on from TC, but the Giants as a group are going to come up with a measured response, not a kneejerk one.
He's a great guy, and all of that, but I suspect he would be a "yes man" to Coughlin. I've really come to like Tom, but it may be time for him to hang up the stirrups too.
All the speculation is about Gilbride getting the ax, but i think maybe the problem is with Tom himself. Mara has expressed frustration about it taking three years to figure out that Jernigan can play; Tom sees him every day, is Gilbride going to tell Tom not to play him - no.
Tom's hand is heavy (philosophically) in all of this -it's ALWAYS been about the big play for him. This year, we didn't have the horses to implement that type of offense. Half the season was gone before there was any sign of concession to reality.
Among many other examples, the 2011 49ers, the 2012-13 Seahawks, the 2013 Chargers and even the 2013 Eagles are examples of teams that morphed into something different (and better) because they chose to adapt.
It's pretty hard to argue with success, Tom has the pelts, and he can argue that it was injuries and Reese not providing him the players that cause this year's disaster, and he's right, but ……
Sadly Tom is 68, is he up to rebuilding the team (mostly the offense), from basically scratch ? As he has proven, over-and-over his teams are unstoppable when he has the pieces and absolutely horrible, when he doesn't.
when I hear Tom will talk with his family. Almost like they are paving the way for it.
mdc,
Coughlin may retire but, if he does, it won't be because you heard he will talk with his family. Read the transcripts of the news conference. TC starts off making an initial statement. In it, he says he will address what is on everyone's mind and that I want to coach. He said it two times. Then, in answer to the very first question, he repeats it a 3rd time, I want to coach. And again a 4th time in response to another question: "Hopefully I'll be coaching the NY Giants"
Then Reese holds his news conference immediately after and, in response to a Q about TC, Reese says (my paraphrasing): "I want him back. But first I have to hear from Tom what he wants. I don't know if he wants to come back. Give the man a few days to talk it over with his family."
Coughlin never once said he wanted to talk to his family. To the contrary, he went out of his way two times in his initial statement and then at least two more times in response to questions, to say that he wants to be back coaching. So, if he winds up retiring, you can safely assume it wasn't his decision.
when I hear Tom will talk with his family. Almost like they are paving the way for it.
mdc,
Coughlin may retire but, if he does, it won't be because you heard he will talk with his family. Read the transcripts of the news conference. TC starts off making an initial statement. In it, he says he will address what is on everyone's mind and that I want to coach. He said it two times. Then, in answer to the very first question, he repeats it a 3rd time, I want to coach. And again a 4th time in response to another question: "Hopefully I'll be coaching the NY Giants"
Then Reese holds his news conference immediately after and, in response to a Q about TC, Reese says (my paraphrasing): "I want him back. But first I have to hear from Tom what he wants. I don't know if he wants to come back. Give the man a few days to talk it over with his family."
Coughlin never once said he wanted to talk to his family. To the contrary, he went out of his way two times in his initial statement and then at least two more times in response to questions, to say that he wants to be back coaching. So, if he winds up retiring, you can safely assume it wasn't his decision.
Never said TC said that. Thanks for confirming what I read too, GM (Reese) suggesting he wants to talk over with his family. Maybe Reese has bigger objectives than Tom can fulfill moving forward and wants him gone. If I were Reese and was not responsible for the oline and my job was under fire because of it I would want him gone too. Agree with some of the others about not playing, preparing, and developing young talent. I am pretty sure Reese is pretty annoyed with the fact that the owner makes that comment and reflects on him. TC's job is to coach players and to increase our chances of winning, not to protect old-in-the-tooth players and coaches.
Yea, I found Reese's comments, following what TC said, to be very telling ... and the only thing that made sense to me is that Reese wasn't ready to simply say TC is coming back on his terms ... and in my mind if Reese (or Mara) don't want TC to come back on his own terms, then it doesn't make sense to bring him back at all.
You guys are reading way too much into Reese's comments. Reese very easily could have meant that that he should talk to his family about how much longer he wants to coach before they discuss extending his contract. It may have zero to do with his coaching staff since all parties involved have said still need to be evaluated.
If TC stays a system change MUST occur. But I would strongly consider coming up with an exit strategy for all.
Good post GiantTuff1.
The owners/Reese have already said they want TC back, and TC says he still wants to coach, so I think that is going to sort itself out and he will stay.
The meeting on Thursday is clearly about the direction of the offense & Gilbride, and do the Giants need the change Mara is looking for and will TC comply with it. Fewell and the defense probably get a pass this offseason.
I for one, want TC to stay and have Reese recruit a new OC. And hopefully find a new OC that has attributes to be a HC as well so, if he succeeds, can replace TC at the end of his tenure.
and to draft David Wilson instead of Mike Adams should be the one to go. I realize Adams was subsequently stabbed during a carjack, but that was in Pittsburgh, the city that drafted him.
I am particularly impressed no one mentioned Spags.
I have a friend who is a former cop and fellow Giants fan who is staking out the Giants' facilities Thursday. Hopefully he can pass along some insight.
RE: Whoever made the decision to let Martellus Bennett walk Â
and to draft David Wilson instead of Mike Adams should be the one to go. I realize Adams was subsequently stabbed during a carjack, but that was in Pittsburgh, the city that drafted him.
Knowing TCs loyalty, it may also mean 'but if you make me fire someone, these are the things you need to do in the off-season, but I won't be the beneficiary of them'.(Sort of like the exit meeting upon termination or retirement)
In retrospect, it shouldn't be. This isn't the team to root for when you want sweeping changes. That's not how it's ever worked.
Do you really think after this season Reese has not learned his lesson on OL and LB?
I think were gonna also start to see less athletic projects drafted in early rounds
It seemed to be that the changes he was looking for involved:
1. Improving the O Line
2. Pushing for giving young guys a chance to play. He specifically mentioned that it shouldn't have taken 3 years for Jernigan to get a chance.
3. Possibly changing draft strategy somewhat, by drafting less high risk/high reward type guys.
There's a lot of player moves that need to be made also but OC and Oline improvement will really help. I hope Coughlin is OK with a new OC. As much as he has his faults, he's a great head coach.
TC during his PC said he wants to come back. Both Reese and Mara said they want him back.
But..... Reese did say "We will give Tom a few days to talk about it with his family"
This is waht makes me believe they are forcing some things on TC....
Knowing TCs loyalty, it may also mean 'but if you make me fire someone, these are the things you need to do in the off-season, but I won't be the beneficiary of them'.(Sort of like the exit meeting upon termination or retirement)
I am certainly in the camp of a new OC. That said, if they make that move and TC agrees, I hope that he communicates to them... "well shit draft me some talent in the areas we are weak at drafting..."...
That piece has to come into focus because its not ALL on one piece of the org that is for sure.
I wouldn't assume Tom Coughlin is the only two-time champion who will be forced to sacrifice loyal lieutenants this week. If Gilbride (x2), Quinn and Ryan are held accountable for crappy results, Ross seems like a good candidate to share the gallows as the pound of flesh John Mara extracts from Jerry Reese. The Accorsi proteges, Abrams and Sternfeld, are probably safe, although it might depend on the alternatives available.
Another open question is how deeply the family wants to undercut Reese (and others) by inserting Chris Mara into personnel decisions. Having lived through the 1970s with this team, I don't really want a Mara buying the groceries.
That is why Reese is safe
TC during his PC said he wants to come back. Both Reese and Mara said they want him back.
But..... Reese did say "We will give Tom a few days to talk about it with his family"
This is waht makes me believe they are forcing some things on TC....
Huh, so Coughlin is going to talk to his family about Quinn and Gilbride?
Jerry Reese is Senior Vice President and General Manager
Marc Ross is Vice President, Player Evaluation
So how does that work?
Coughlin is also absolutely every bit as responsible for the crap-fest the OL became this year as Reese is.
That's not the mark of a flexible mind that adapts systems to players, it's one of someone who thinks they know it all and will stick up for his buddies, hold status quo tight, and run their devised system till kingdom come, regardless of it it's broken or a proper fit. IMO that's a huge indictment of him...
That's part of my reason for advocating for a fresh coaching staff that is willing to not be egoic in this regard. The genius of Bill Belechick is that he doesn't ram the round peg in the square hole. He finds his players' strengths, and maximizes them... this changes year to year depending on personnel, as he's expertly shown this year.
That's the kind of coach I want. Someone younger. Energetic. Adaptable. Who will let the players PLAY to their natural ability, not throwing a stick in the spoke of their talents by forcing overtly complex schemes on players.
Regarding Gilbride being fired... The ENTIRE SCHEME has to change. It cannot under any circumstance just be the play caller. The issues on offense are SYSTEMIC, and do not only occur because Gilbride happens to be standing on the sidelines.
This type of change is a big one. Is TC going to want to stick through that... does he even support it?
While the time isn't "great" to send TC off, Hollywood scripts are rarely written in sports. I think now is as good a time as any to make the move.
If played GM, and we removed the emotion of the SB win a few years ago, and examined the situation as it stood today. 4/5 years no playoffs. Losing season. And your franchise QB sitting on the peak of his prime, you almost have to make a switch now, to start fresh and build something immediately for the next decade plus before our franchise QB gets older. It's the QB I'm looking to make sure gets taken care of...
If TC stays a system change MUST occur. But I would strongly consider coming up with an exit strategy for all.
How would that work, exactly? Force Coughlin to hire an offensive coordinator who runs an system Coughlin doesn't believe in - and tell Coughlin "hands off" (i.e. to assure Coughlin doesn't turn it back into his own system)?
What is the function of keeping Coughlin at that point? He isn't even a head coach anymore. It's just nuts. Part ways with the man if you don't like his system. He's a big boy. He'll retire happily or find another job elsewhere. But it just makes ZERO SENSE to keep Coughlin as your head coach, but tell him you don't like his coaching philosophies. Frankly, that's just idiotic.
My thinking is roughly along the same lines.
I'm starting to wonder if Ross should go, and Chris Mara and Reese swap certain duties.They can juggle titles about to handle the PR end of it.Bottom line, overall an expansion of Reeses duties, but restrictions in certain areas, business in particular that Chris might handle better.
All I meant was they re giving him few days to sit on it..
Jerry Reese is Senior Vice President and General Manager
Marc Ross is Vice President, Player Evaluation
So how does that work?
I've been asking this all year, started threads on it, and don't get any hard answers. I think that may be part of the problem.
Quote:
made me think they are forcing changes on TC.
TC during his PC said he wants to come back. Both Reese and Mara said they want him back.
But..... Reese did say "We will give Tom a few days to talk about it with his family"
This is waht makes me believe they are forcing some things on TC....
Huh, so Coughlin is going to talk to his family about Quinn and Gilbride?
Sure, his input counts for something but we all know TC is loyal to his guys. Sometimes to a fault.
FO had to fire Sheridan and they will have to do the same to Gilbride.
How thick are the ties between TC and KG? Would TC walk or retire if the FO says KG must go?
This will be an interesting week, to say the least.
But it was just more of the same this year. Worse. Down to their 3rd string OL. 5th string RB. JPP. Webster. Nicks. Hynoski. T2.
It just never stops. Injuries are a part of the game but there has to be a reason why almost annually the Giants are near the top of games missed by starters. Seems like every year the team is compromised before camp breaks and this year was no different despite the fact Coughlin clearly runs one of the lightest camps in the NFL
Replacing the offensive coordinator with anyone won't change anything ... and if it does change, then the change will presumably be against Coughlin's coaching philosophy/strategy ... and what's the point? If you don't like Coughlin's football philosophy/strategy, then part ways. But it doesn't make any sense to tell your coach, we like YOU but can't stand your strategy/approach. How does that possibly make sense?
I have suspected for awhile that the Giants might be conflicted about TC in that they really don't want to fire him per se; its just not the Giants way to fire a coach after a 7-9 season, their first losing season in a decade, and just two years out from a Super Bowl. That's what the Detroits and Clevelands of this world do (of course if they ever got close to a SB without buying a ticket). But Mara and Reese are smart guys who have been around football for a long time and if guys look you and I can see something is broken but nothing is being done to fix it then they sure can too.
(As an aside people have asked why TC wouldn't make changes to what obviously wasn't working, but go back to 2011 and for 15 plus weeks we saw pretty much the same thing we saw this year until Victor popped off that amazing run versus the Jets to get things turned around and the rest is history. I have gone so far as to say that not only did the Giants appear to be not well coached the past two years, but they didn't appear to be all that well coached in 2011 and it was almost like the team won that year despite TC. In fact about the only thing he can be given credit for what he stuck to his guns and preached stay the course!)
Yes they'll briefly talk to Fewell to satisfy the league rules but if Sullivan is brought in, it's not to be the OC. It's to be the next Head coach.
How will TC react? We don't know.
And the Sullivan as HC in waiting stuff: Can we please stop that? If what Colin says is accurate, they want an OC that will run his own show/system. That's not Sullivan. He's not the best person for the position when you have a potential candidate pool of: Norv Turner & Chud, and if things go south with TC, Bill O'Brien & Ken Whisenhunt.
Again, I expect TC back..But I don't think that's a lock at this point.
Speaking of the WCO, one QB on the roster who appears fairly well-suited to that offense is Ryan Nassib. So if a WCO guy takes over as OC, it might suggest that Nassib has a future here - though obviously not an immediate one.
I never said anything about coaches changing philosophies ... in fact, anyone good at what they do is always refining and adapting ... that's what makes you expert at what you do.
Totally different, however, for someone else to decide what to believe/become. The greatest coaches of all time - Lombardi, Landry, Belichick, Parcells, whomever - seriously doubt anyone dictated to them what style of football they had to play. Afterall, was there really someone so presumptuous as to believe he knew more about football strategy than Lombardi? Landry? I seriously doubt it.
Again, nothing wrong with moving in a different direction. I think it's uncalled for and would simply extend the time for a recovery, since the overhaul would simply be that more thorough. But, I would also understand it. The Coughlin era has to end sometime and perhaps now is the time. If so, do it.
But it simply makes zero sense to keep a coach but not let him coach. Its completely disfunctional and the result will be reflective of that disfunctionality.
Yes they'll briefly talk to Fewell to satisfy the league rules but if Sullivan is brought in, it's not to be the OC. It's to be the next Head coach.
Cane, I sure hope you're wrong. That would just be a complete waste of a 2014 season.
Overreact to the present moment, make change for the sake of change.
I like the Giants way better.
For not getting oline and cb..
Web played 1 game..horsey 2
Snee and baas and diehl were
Injured and Pugh was only rookie.
No fa oline.?
Overreact to the present moment, make change for the sake of change.
I like the Giants way better.
What way is the Giants' way exactly? This is somewhat of an unprecedented situation. A 10 year coach with two Lombardi trophies whose teams have played poorly for the past season and a half and have failed to make the playoffs 4 out of the past 5 seasons. Not sure what the Giants' way is under such circumstances?
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seem to embrace the Redskin, Brown, Raider, etc. way of doing thing.
Overreact to the present moment, make change for the sake of change.
I like the Giants way better.
What way is the Giants' way exactly? This is somewhat of an unprecedented situation. A 10 year coach with two Lombardi trophies whose teams have played poorly for the past season and a half and have failed to make the playoffs 4 out of the past 5 seasons. Not sure what the Giants' way is under such circumstances?
Not overreacting to the present. If they decided change needs to by made, they'll come to that conclusion collectively, and after a cool-off period. It won't just be because the fans are upset, or because they think TC lost the ability to run a team. I think they should probably move on from TC, but the Giants as a group are going to come up with a measured response, not a kneejerk one.
All the speculation is about Gilbride getting the ax, but i think maybe the problem is with Tom himself. Mara has expressed frustration about it taking three years to figure out that Jernigan can play; Tom sees him every day, is Gilbride going to tell Tom not to play him - no.
Tom's hand is heavy (philosophically) in all of this -it's ALWAYS been about the big play for him. This year, we didn't have the horses to implement that type of offense. Half the season was gone before there was any sign of concession to reality.
Among many other examples, the 2011 49ers, the 2012-13 Seahawks, the 2013 Chargers and even the 2013 Eagles are examples of teams that morphed into something different (and better) because they chose to adapt.
It's pretty hard to argue with success, Tom has the pelts, and he can argue that it was injuries and Reese not providing him the players that cause this year's disaster, and he's right, but ……
Sadly Tom is 68, is he up to rebuilding the team (mostly the offense), from basically scratch ? As he has proven, over-and-over his teams are unstoppable when he has the pieces and absolutely horrible, when he doesn't.
mdc,
Coughlin may retire but, if he does, it won't be because you heard he will talk with his family. Read the transcripts of the news conference. TC starts off making an initial statement. In it, he says he will address what is on everyone's mind and that I want to coach. He said it two times. Then, in answer to the very first question, he repeats it a 3rd time, I want to coach. And again a 4th time in response to another question: "Hopefully I'll be coaching the NY Giants"
Then Reese holds his news conference immediately after and, in response to a Q about TC, Reese says (my paraphrasing): "I want him back. But first I have to hear from Tom what he wants. I don't know if he wants to come back. Give the man a few days to talk it over with his family."
Coughlin never once said he wanted to talk to his family. To the contrary, he went out of his way two times in his initial statement and then at least two more times in response to questions, to say that he wants to be back coaching. So, if he winds up retiring, you can safely assume it wasn't his decision.
I just can't stand that guy.
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when I hear Tom will talk with his family. Almost like they are paving the way for it.
mdc,
Coughlin may retire but, if he does, it won't be because you heard he will talk with his family. Read the transcripts of the news conference. TC starts off making an initial statement. In it, he says he will address what is on everyone's mind and that I want to coach. He said it two times. Then, in answer to the very first question, he repeats it a 3rd time, I want to coach. And again a 4th time in response to another question: "Hopefully I'll be coaching the NY Giants"
Then Reese holds his news conference immediately after and, in response to a Q about TC, Reese says (my paraphrasing): "I want him back. But first I have to hear from Tom what he wants. I don't know if he wants to come back. Give the man a few days to talk it over with his family."
Coughlin never once said he wanted to talk to his family. To the contrary, he went out of his way two times in his initial statement and then at least two more times in response to questions, to say that he wants to be back coaching. So, if he winds up retiring, you can safely assume it wasn't his decision.
Never said TC said that. Thanks for confirming what I read too, GM (Reese) suggesting he wants to talk over with his family. Maybe Reese has bigger objectives than Tom can fulfill moving forward and wants him gone. If I were Reese and was not responsible for the oline and my job was under fire because of it I would want him gone too. Agree with some of the others about not playing, preparing, and developing young talent. I am pretty sure Reese is pretty annoyed with the fact that the owner makes that comment and reflects on him. TC's job is to coach players and to increase our chances of winning, not to protect old-in-the-tooth players and coaches.
If TC stays a system change MUST occur. But I would strongly consider coming up with an exit strategy for all.
Good post GiantTuff1.
The owners/Reese have already said they want TC back, and TC says he still wants to coach, so I think that is going to sort itself out and he will stay.
The meeting on Thursday is clearly about the direction of the offense & Gilbride, and do the Giants need the change Mara is looking for and will TC comply with it. Fewell and the defense probably get a pass this offseason.
I for one, want TC to stay and have Reese recruit a new OC. And hopefully find a new OC that has attributes to be a HC as well so, if he succeeds, can replace TC at the end of his tenure.
I have a friend who is a former cop and fellow Giants fan who is staking out the Giants' facilities Thursday. Hopefully he can pass along some insight.
It was either Bennett or Cruz. You pick one.