Saw this and I'm going to fucking lose it!!! How many years do we have to be in the bottom of every statistic on special teams, how many busted coverages do we need to see, how many Tds do we need to give up before he's fired??? When does he have to answer?? It's unbelievable. Everyone wanted Gilbride out, which I agreed with to, but Quinn needed to go more then Gilbride IMO. It's unreal that he gets to keep his job...
I wanted to see Izzo to get a shot running special teams
if you are going to have this idiot as a coach-GET A REAL RETURNER-and get a some real gunners. Those two areas killed the Gmen. Get Leon Washington/Brandon Tate/Devin Hester this offseason and also draft a WR and CB in middle rounds who some expierence on specials gunning and are good at it. If you want to draft a high upside CB in 2nd round-Bradley Roby is a tremendous athlete who kills it at gunner.
This clearly shows that Coughlin would have never gotten rid of Gilbride if he hadn't retired. How can you honestly look at Quinn's resume and say that he deserves to stay as special teams coach?
Saw this and I'm going to fucking lose it!!! How many years do we have to be in the bottom of every statistic on special teams, how many busted coverages do we need to see, how many Tds do we need to give up before he's fired??? When does he have to answer?? It's unbelievable. Everyone wanted Gilbride out, which I agreed with to, but Quinn needed to go more then Gilbride IMO. It's unreal that he gets to keep his job...
Apparently that just isn't the case and in the 2 previous years he was 10th and 15th according to the article.
He no doubt is either related to someone in the orginaization
we should sign every talented UDFA special teams player and give him a pool of players to work with, then he picks the best of 6 guys who are really good(work together well), plus 2-3 vets (not counting DeO and SW).
Maybe a PLAYER emerges from that pool...Tyree2?
Crazy idea, maybe; but every other thing he does fails, how bad can this idea be. We're gonna dump some bottom-feeder players anyway, so why not?
Saw this and I'm going to fucking lose it!!! How many years do we have to be in the bottom of every statistic on special teams, how many busted coverages do we need to see, how many Tds do we need to give up before he's fired??? When does he have to answer?? It's unbelievable. Everyone wanted Gilbride out, which I agreed with to, but Quinn needed to go more then Gilbride IMO. It's unreal that he gets to keep his job...
Apparently that just isn't the case and in the 2 previous years he was 10th and 15th according to the article.
It appears that I should have bolded parts of that quote. Though I wasn't a fan, perhaps I was wrong.
This guy does not deserve another year. He's been here 8 years about to be 9!!! Of those years, how many of then were you content and satisfied with our special teams? Our coverage has been horrible, we don't open up lanes. Wilson made him look good because the guy has track star speed. He's horrible and we need a new coach there. Everyone knows that.
I'm convinced more than ever that the type of changes this team probably needs are only going to occur when heads roll from the GM to HC.
Tom Quinn returning is indefensible.
This staff is leaning on two Superbowls in 7 years more than answering for missing the playoffs 4 times in 5 years. I can't say I can blame them but it is really alarming when things like this are taking place. I wanted TC back but I was sure we would be changing OC and ST coach. Now I am beginning to think TC is blinded by the success his staff/team has had. Too many instances of guys needing to be replaced at both team and coaching level and his unwillingness to do it.
The injuries & the turnover at the bottom of the roster doomed specials. That's a fair appraisal. Westhoff said the same thing about the Jets. Want to cover punts like the Hawks do? Sure just get yourself seemingly 12 DBs who are all so big that you can't distinguish the corners from the safeties . That's how you win in the punt game. Jammers beat the gunners. Flip side Gunners whip the hammers. Win your battle. So much of what gets pigeon-holed as a problem of scheme or motivation is simply : win your personal battle.
If they think its personnel then they are just oblivious. TC has made Quinn use multiple starters on ST's for years. It's his coaching that is killing us. He doesn't get creative enough or find ways to open up lanes consistently. And I don't want to get started on how bad our coverage is especially in big spots. I'm literally at a loss for words. I really hope Mara or someone is asked why he was retained, cause I need to know.
sucked for a large majority of his time here; it just wasn't last year or this year.
The Giants could have shown their fans that changes would be coming after a deceiving 7-9 season. Instead, we get Gilbride 'retiring' & Fewell staying.
What a joke.
Special Teams have been a joke here numerous times under his watch.
When he wasn't fired immediately at the end of the season.. I knew he would be back...The longer they take to evaluate the "problem" here the faster the bad taste in their mouth disappears.
responsible for such a poor display of football his squads showed this season. And what makes it so egregious is that the mistakes and poor play was fairly wide-spread across all of his units.
The specials were embarrassing and a huge contributor to our ridiculously bad start to this season.
1) The Duke of Medina Sidonia returns as commander of the Spanish Armada
2) Gen Custer to return as commander of the 7th cavalry at Little Big Horn
3) General Paulus returns as commander of the 6th army at Stalingrad
Has to be worse nfl owner..
He let's Tc coach out his contract
Basically. He says we need
Good players yet says reese
Does good job..He says offense
Is broken and brings in 4
No name coaches..One we
Already had..Quinn and Fewell
Back...Jerry Jones would
Have fired them all.
...but do you guys really think that a special teams coach has that large of an impact on the performance of the unit?
The Giants special teams were horrid this year and I think that has more to do with the complete lack of depth on the roster than it does with the coaching.
I also do not agree with the point freely made in the thread that the Giants specials have stunk for a majority of TC's tenure, I do not have numbers to back it up but from my eyeball test we usually have solid to good special teams. Not to mention it was our specials who made the biggest play in the '11 NFC title game to send us to the Super Bowl.
It seems that everyone wants a scapegoat and the coach to be fired but is it really so hard to believe that the Giants have evaluated the talent they had on this whole roster and realized that it was the main reasons the specials were horrid this year.
Jerry Jones would have fired them all? Like how he kept Jason Garrett despite missing the playoffs again or Monte Kiffin as DC despite having the worst ranked defense in football?
special teams winning a big playoff game against SF in the mud bowl a couple of years ago. Sometimes, Giants fans, you seem to be stampeded into the tunnel in developing your point of view.
special teams winning a big playoff game against SF in the mud bowl a couple of years ago. Sometimes, Giants fans, you seem to be stampeded into the tunnel in developing your point of view.
Yes, I'm sure Lawrence Tynes owes everything to the peerless coaching of Tom Quinn.
They were also quite good under Quinn not too long ago as well...I don't care one way or the other(that he stays) but I have to believe that leading the league by a mile in lost games to injury(91), had to have an adverse effect on performance this year. I take it that this is the Giants' thinking
Yeah, that ball bouncing off of Kevin Williams' knee makes up
This is the one guy, I thought there was no chance of him coming back. Just goes to show, there won't be any real changes until Tommy retires. Go ahead and save us the dog and pony show and just hire Sullivan
Thinks that the reason we won two superbowls or got to them was because of special teams is truly misguided. In the SF game we got lucky cause the one fumble recovery came off the returners leg and he didn't even know it hit him. The other was a good play by Williams/Thomas. It's not like we had been getting great field position all game or that we were covering like animals. He has been horrible. Tynes kicking a FG doesn't count towards him either. His job is to come up with ways to open up holes in the return game, ways to block punts, and ways to cover. We don't do any of that.
When a ST coach does a good job, you should see the team end up in the top % as far as starting field position goes. The ST coach should also make players aware of the opponents tendencies and to watch out for trick plays.
Beyond that, it seems to me to be on the players to make the plays. Am I wrong in thinking that horrific break downs that result in an occasional punt return/kick off for a TD to be the players' fault?
Maybe 1 player messed up really bad. You have to look at the years worth of ST play to grade the coach. Seems to me that the occasional blown play is player-related.
...but do you guys really think that a special teams coach has that large of an impact on the performance of the unit?
The Giants special teams were horrid this year and I think that has more to do with the complete lack of depth on the roster than it does with the coaching.
I also do not agree with the point freely made in the thread that the Giants specials have stunk for a majority of TC's tenure, I do not have numbers to back it up but from my eyeball test we usually have solid to good special teams. Not to mention it was our specials who made the biggest play in the '11 NFC title game to send us to the Super Bowl.
It seems that everyone wants a scapegoat and the coach to be fired but is it really so hard to believe that the Giants have evaluated the talent they had on this whole roster and realized that it was the main reasons the specials were horrid this year.
Good analysis ... I feel Quinn was evaluated on many other areas other than performance ... how fast the FG team gets out there ... are the teams ready to go and knowledgable ... how well players hold their lines on returns and fixes them when they screw up ... etc.
I have no idea how well he graded ... I don't even know exactly how to ... but looking at it from only a fan's perspective isn't really right ...
Now the offense - we all can point to a lot ... delays of game ... wrong packages on the field ... poor situaltional play calling ... all these errors were part of Gilbride's evaluation ... and not a function of the talent ... maybe he graded poorly ...
is always hard to evaluate from a coaching perspective.
I mean, how many different "plays" do you have? Quinn can only really draw up the play, the players have to execute.
And while that's true on offense and defense, there is so much more strategy on those sides of the ball.
I think it comes down to having specialty players (good kicker/punter, elsusive return man) and really having athletic guys who have the desire to execute and tackle.
game was a specials battle with neither offense able to prevail. It was back and fourth for a lengthy period. We won. Yes, some highlights, but backed up by a lot of solid play. You could look it up.
When a ST coach does a good job, you should see the team end up in the top % as far as starting field position goes. The ST coach should also make players aware of the opponents tendencies and to watch out for trick plays.
Beyond that, it seems to me to be on the players to make the plays. Am I wrong in thinking that horrific break downs that result in an occasional punt return/kick off for a TD to be the players' fault?
Maybe 1 player messed up really bad. You have to look at the years worth of ST play to grade the coach. Seems to me that the occasional blown play is player-related.
Agreed.
I used to be down on Quinn, especially early in the season when the unit was a disaster. But then I realized that the talent on the roster as whole was bad, which in turn made the special teams unit as terrible as it was.
According to Football Outsiders, here was how the Giants ranked the last 4 seasons:
The case could have been made to get rid of Quinn after the 2010 season. But the next two seasons the unit improved dramatically. This is why I have a difficult time making the case that after two years where they jumped from 30th to 10th, he suddenly became dumb and forgot how to coach.
I am now a Quinn supporter.
specials suck when you don't have quality depth. you don't have
Brown is a very average kicker. Surely Quinn isn't going to make a 38 yr old kicker better.
Weatherford - whatever his issues were, he needs to figure it out. Can Quinn recommend something in his technique? Surely, but you either figure it out or you're placed as a punter.
Return men - underwhelming.
Backup players on roster - again underwhelming, and these are the guys who make up the majority of your unit. I don't see any Renee Thompson's playing gunner.
The special teams is more an idictment on those choosing player personnel rather than Quinn IMO.
jumped to conclusions in wanting Quinn's head on a platter. We really have to do better in the later rounds of the draft to look for good ST players. Even UFA's that are good on ST's should be brought to camp.
out there playing special teams this season. And don't just blame depth because we often played Starters on many of the squads as well. There were far too many mental errors, poor judgments, and recklessly executed plays to believe that meaningful coaching exists on the Giants ST.
I will even give Quinn a pass on our own punt and KO returns since he doesn't not have anybody elusive to rely upon.
But our coverage teams are a complete mess; Weatherford regressed on him; gunners continually going out of bounds or running out of control passed their returners; snaps flying over our punter; players jumping offside on opposing field goal attempts; no awareness of the ball on short punts from the opposition; lack of judgment on fair catches near our own goal line; poor awareness of trick plays made by opposition....
Seriously though, I think management is giving Coughlin one more year to get back to the playoffs and they don't want to sign contracts for new guys that may be gone if/when a new regime comes in.
the only reason we were 10th in 2012 was because David Wilson had a decent year returning kickoffs - if you take that away the rest of the ST units stunk .
when was the last time the giants returned a punt of TD ( dominick hixon
in 2009)
meanwhile this year we gave up 2 punt returns for tds this year
lack of depth is not an excuse . every team fields the same number of players
the Vikings were 5 -10 but had the 6 th best unit according to Football outsiders
it is about coaching and this coach has been a failure almost his entire time here
Unfortunately things won't really change much as long as Coughlin is around.. Main reason I really wanted him gone as well. Good coach but to stubborn and loyal in his ways. Oh well 1 more year..
special teams lack talent. Paysinger, DeOssie, Herzlich, Bradford, Hill, Moore, and Mundy are good special teamers and Brown and Weatherford are both solid.
Tom Coughlin, a future Hall of Fame coach thinks enough of the guy to bring him back.
I don't know, maybe I just don't get it, but isn't it possible Coughlin knows circumstances surrounding the poor special teams play that you don't?
On the one hand you guys kill Reese for his lousy drafts, especially the middle picks. And on the other hand you kill the coaches because their units don't perform will with the limited talent.
His units give up too many big plays and don't make enough big plays for their own team. And sometimes they get caught with their pants down (not ready for fakes or on-sides kicks) which should never happen to a pro team. This crap has been going on for several years now.
His players do not appear to be well coached as evidenced by their lack of proper procedures like breaking down and getting into position to tackle on kick coverage. And they certainly aren't very effective in blocking for kick and punt returns. Even Wilson's TD return should have been called back.
Granted Quinn hasn't had the best players to work with, but neither do most of the other special teams coaches around the league. At most they are going to get a very few guys beyond the kickers and LS who are special teams specialists.
This is another lost opportunity to make a significant change in what is becoming one of the least competitive teams in the entire NFL.
can you imagine the mind of someone who sights Jerry Jones
the only reason we were 10th in 2012 was because David Wilson had a decent year returning kickoffs - if you take that away the rest of the ST units stunk .
when was the last time the giants returned a punt of TD ( dominick hixon
in 2009)
meanwhile this year we gave up 2 punt returns for tds this year
lack of depth is not an excuse . every team fields the same number of players
the Vikings were 5 -10 but had the 6 th best unit according to Football outsiders
it is about coaching and this coach has been a failure almost his entire time here
still on his rookie contract. Wait until they have to pay up for him.
It would be nice to have some cap space when Seattle has to pay Wilson and SF has to pay Kaepernik. There is going to be some serious talent leaving those teams.
It really is amazing they are bringing Quinn back.
Anybody who thinks special teams don't make a difference in this league is just crazy. Crucial for field position, momentum and big plays.
And for a team that seems to hover around .500 every year with minimal contributions from special teams, my advice would be to invest more time & energy into this facet of the game as it may make the difference in getting to the playoffs more often than just once in the past 5 years.
Punt Returner that lasted more than a season? Our best Kickoff Returner was what's his name again, you know the guy the League wouldn't kick it to. Exactly what is it that Quinn does or doesn't do that gets your panties so wadded up?
don't forget the fact that his special teams unit lined up 7 guys on one side of the formation (the call that should have been made in the chargers chiefs finale game), a new rule added to the NFL last year
That was fucking bullshit. Quinn should have learned. It would have been 20-7 Kansas city with 9 minutes left in the game.
I can give Quinn a break for damontre moore's offside penalties I guess
Really, special teams is important? You don't say. It's also important to have some level of balance in your life to avoid over-dramatizing the retention of a coach who has been strapped w/ shitty depth.
This whole we have bad backups excuse is crap. At some point you have to look at coaching. These are professional football players out there through the 53. There is absolutely no reason our ST should be this bad all the time.
But on this, really blame should be set right at the feet of TC. Yet another reason why I think not making the head coaching change is foolish.
Unfortunately things won't really change much as long as Coughlin is around.. Main reason I really wanted him gone as well. Good coach but to stubborn and loyal in his ways. Oh well 1 more year..
Exactly micky. Glibride retired this year rather than being fired next year. They're all gone once TC is done.
of FG's blocked. I don't see the punt team all running left as the punt returner runs right. I don't see a punt returner that is a threat and since Wilson went down a KO returner that scares anyone. I do a lot of guys getting blocked on returns, I see missed tackles. I Do Not Care if Quinn is fired after I hit the send button, but some of can't admit that we have mediocre players on Specials and no one who is special
I don't disagree that we do not have a Tyree (early days) or a Myron Gyton out there but after five years, you have to figure you find something that works pretty reliably. We can't find 11 guys, seriously? C'mon now, we are not Rutgers being asked to the the NFL every year.
I happen to be of the mind that you could give Quinn his choice of the ENTIRE roster, the ENTIRE roster, any starter he wants and if you made me bet, I don't think we would see a material difference.
I don't care if he goes, but there are some drama queens here that shift their attention from Killdrive to Quinn as their whipping boy. If the Giants think he is getting the job done then they have to live with that if it blows up in their faces. I think the problems aren't with coaches or schemes, I think the bottom of the roster is filled with mediocrity and a couple of injuries exposes that weakness
Giants are a combined 3 games over .500 for the past 5 years
so our entire roster has been fairly mediocre for a while.
That being said, outside of having David Wilson go off on KO returns last season, the Special Teams performance has been much less than mediocre over that same time period.
A change in ST coordinators to see if things improve would not have been the worst thing the Giants could try in order to get better.
game sucks. We must lead the league in fair catches on punts.It seems when Randall catches one for a return he hesitates then steps into a tackler. There is no elusiveness or speed on our return game. And Cox is the best we can do for KO's? Seriously? A 7th round pick who shouldn't and wouldn't be on any teams NFL roster but the Giants. Wilson's injury was a setback. And if he returns IMO returns should be his first priority.He may never be the RB we wanted but he should be a very potent return man.
the one point for me which stands out is that we didn't have the horses to win in the other two phases of the team, so why should we believe he had them for specials?
I still wanted him gone...I just hope the above proves to be true.
RE: Don't know if Quinn should stay or not but seriously our return
game sucks. We must lead the league in fair catches on punts.It seems when Randall catches one for a return he hesitates then steps into a tackler. There is no elusiveness or speed on our return game. And Cox is the best we can do for KO's? Seriously? A 7th round pick who shouldn't and wouldn't be on any teams NFL roster but the Giants. Wilson's injury was a setback. And if he returns IMO returns should be his first priority.He may never be the RB we wanted but he should be a very potent return man.
Let have a discussion about this.
Are you saying that the ST coach is the reason the Giants do not have a reasonable (I would sign up for league average myself) punt return game?
The way it has been discussed from the coach (Coughlin) in stories over the years in addition to his own words, Coughlin would rather have "ball security" over a guy that can take a punt and return it 20 or 30 yards, who may make the occasional fumble or be reckless, try to make something out of nothing and wind up losing yardage.
Now, this can work if you had the offense the Giants had over the last few years prior to this season. The theory being that as long as the returned doesn't screw up, let's just give to the offense and let them do their thing.
Punt and kick returning is a very unique skill. You can't "coach it up." There is a reason only certain guys have been able to do it. Remember Willie Ponder?
For whatever reason, Coughlin has not stressed attempting to get points out of that specific position even before the kickoffs were moved up and touchbacks became the norm.
The coach has to believe in it before serious change is made.
RE: Giants are a combined 3 games over .500 for the past 5 years
so our entire roster has been fairly mediocre for a while.
That being said, outside of having David Wilson go off on KO returns last season, the Special Teams performance has been much less than mediocre over that same time period.
A change in ST coordinators to see if things improve would not have been the worst thing the Giants could try in order to get better.
If the roster has been mediocre as a whole as suggested, why should the special teams have been good?
of I like ball security over big play is more of default position because the Giants never really had/got/developed anybody that could get the big play. In fact, you could argue we have pain-stakenly struggled in just finding somebody who can do the ball security stuff each season, so even the idea of getting meaningful yards out of them was almost unfathomable.
This is like the Giant mantra that they don't value Linebackers enough to invest heavily in them. When it is more like they don't have anybody good at that position so they deflate it in discussing their defensive strategy.
RE: RE: Giants are a combined 3 games over .500 for the past 5 years
so our entire roster has been fairly mediocre for a while.
That being said, outside of having David Wilson go off on KO returns last season, the Special Teams performance has been much less than mediocre over that same time period.
A change in ST coordinators to see if things improve would not have been the worst thing the Giants could try in order to get better.
If the roster has been mediocre as a whole as suggested, why should the special teams have been good?
The point is that the ST have not even been consistently mediocre. Good is way out in the distance.
time to revisit the correlation vs attribution discussion:
Really, special teams is important? You don't say. It's also important to have some level of balance in your life to avoid over-dramatizing the retention of a coach who has been strapped w/ shitty depth.
Dude, having an opinion on a team I root for many years does not equate to you accusing anyone of over dramatizing the retention of a coach. Thank you Tony Robbins!
I don't care if he goes, but there are some drama queens here that shift their attention from Killdrive to Quinn as their whipping boy. If the Giants think he is getting the job done then they have to live with that if it blows up in their faces. I think the problems aren't with coaches or schemes, I think the bottom of the roster is filled with mediocrity and a couple of injuries exposes that weakness
Headhunter, agree we have a lack of personnel on specials, but there are many times in games where we are just out of place, not maintaining lanes and that's on coaching.
Really.
I'm at a loss.
His unit if a joke. More of a joke than our offense was this year.
Maybe a PLAYER emerges from that pool...Tyree2?
Crazy idea, maybe; but every other thing he does fails, how bad can this idea be. We're gonna dump some bottom-feeder players anyway, so why not?
Quote:
Saw this and I'm going to fucking lose it!!! How many years do we have to be in the bottom of every statistic on special teams, how many busted coverages do we need to see, how many Tds do we need to give up before he's fired??? When does he have to answer?? It's unbelievable. Everyone wanted Gilbride out, which I agreed with to, but Quinn needed to go more then Gilbride IMO. It's unreal that he gets to keep his job...
Apparently that just isn't the case and in the 2 previous years he was 10th and 15th according to the article.
That sounds about right
Unfortunately the subject quickly turned the offensive coordinator so I am not sure its going to stick in Francessa's head.
Tom Quinn returning is indefensible.
Tom Quinn returning is indefensible.
This staff is leaning on two Superbowls in 7 years more than answering for missing the playoffs 4 times in 5 years. I can't say I can blame them but it is really alarming when things like this are taking place. I wanted TC back but I was sure we would be changing OC and ST coach. Now I am beginning to think TC is blinded by the success his staff/team has had. Too many instances of guys needing to be replaced at both team and coaching level and his unwillingness to do it.
Yeah I know, Voldemort was beyond reproach but he was dumped. Quinn can't get any worse and will never be let go. That's worse to me.
The Giants could have shown their fans that changes would be coming after a deceiving 7-9 season. Instead, we get Gilbride 'retiring' & Fewell staying.
What a joke.
The specials were embarrassing and a huge contributor to our ridiculously bad start to this season.
2) Gen Custer to return as commander of the 7th cavalry at Little Big Horn
3) General Paulus returns as commander of the 6th army at Stalingrad
He let's Tc coach out his contract
Basically. He says we need
Good players yet says reese
Does good job..He says offense
Is broken and brings in 4
No name coaches..One we
Already had..Quinn and Fewell
Back...Jerry Jones would
Have fired them all.
The Giants special teams were horrid this year and I think that has more to do with the complete lack of depth on the roster than it does with the coaching.
I also do not agree with the point freely made in the thread that the Giants specials have stunk for a majority of TC's tenure, I do not have numbers to back it up but from my eyeball test we usually have solid to good special teams. Not to mention it was our specials who made the biggest play in the '11 NFC title game to send us to the Super Bowl.
It seems that everyone wants a scapegoat and the coach to be fired but is it really so hard to believe that the Giants have evaluated the talent they had on this whole roster and realized that it was the main reasons the specials were horrid this year.
My goodness I just don't know anymore.....
Having photos goes a long way.
Yes, I'm sure Lawrence Tynes owes everything to the peerless coaching of Tom Quinn.
2013 28th
2012 10th
2011 15th
2010 30th
2009 26th
2008 11th
Agree. That's the one thing he's good at.
Rocco - 8 years with Quinn not having a large impact. We couldn't try to see if somebody else could possibly have an impact?
Beyond that, it seems to me to be on the players to make the plays. Am I wrong in thinking that horrific break downs that result in an occasional punt return/kick off for a TD to be the players' fault?
Maybe 1 player messed up really bad. You have to look at the years worth of ST play to grade the coach. Seems to me that the occasional blown play is player-related.
Can't touch this! Da Da Da Da...Da Da...Da Da. Can't touch this!
The Giants special teams were horrid this year and I think that has more to do with the complete lack of depth on the roster than it does with the coaching.
I also do not agree with the point freely made in the thread that the Giants specials have stunk for a majority of TC's tenure, I do not have numbers to back it up but from my eyeball test we usually have solid to good special teams. Not to mention it was our specials who made the biggest play in the '11 NFC title game to send us to the Super Bowl.
It seems that everyone wants a scapegoat and the coach to be fired but is it really so hard to believe that the Giants have evaluated the talent they had on this whole roster and realized that it was the main reasons the specials were horrid this year.
Good analysis ... I feel Quinn was evaluated on many other areas other than performance ... how fast the FG team gets out there ... are the teams ready to go and knowledgable ... how well players hold their lines on returns and fixes them when they screw up ... etc.
I have no idea how well he graded ... I don't even know exactly how to ... but looking at it from only a fan's perspective isn't really right ...
Now the offense - we all can point to a lot ... delays of game ... wrong packages on the field ... poor situaltional play calling ... all these errors were part of Gilbride's evaluation ... and not a function of the talent ... maybe he graded poorly ...
Williams forcing that fumble has as much to do with coaching as the David Tyree play.
I mean, how many different "plays" do you have? Quinn can only really draw up the play, the players have to execute.
And while that's true on offense and defense, there is so much more strategy on those sides of the ball.
I think it comes down to having specialty players (good kicker/punter, elsusive return man) and really having athletic guys who have the desire to execute and tackle.
I don't think that's really on Quinn.
2013 28th
2012 10th
2011 15th
2010 30th
2009 26th
2008 11th
In two of those years the results were supported by the play of an individual - Weatherford in 2011 and Wilson in 2012.
Beyond that, it seems to me to be on the players to make the plays. Am I wrong in thinking that horrific break downs that result in an occasional punt return/kick off for a TD to be the players' fault?
Maybe 1 player messed up really bad. You have to look at the years worth of ST play to grade the coach. Seems to me that the occasional blown play is player-related.
Agreed.
I used to be down on Quinn, especially early in the season when the unit was a disaster. But then I realized that the talent on the roster as whole was bad, which in turn made the special teams unit as terrible as it was.
According to Football Outsiders, here was how the Giants ranked the last 4 seasons:
2010: 30th
2011: 15th (Super Bowl win)
2012: 10th
2013: 28th
The case could have been made to get rid of Quinn after the 2010 season. But the next two seasons the unit improved dramatically. This is why I have a difficult time making the case that after two years where they jumped from 30th to 10th, he suddenly became dumb and forgot how to coach.
I am now a Quinn supporter.
Weatherford - whatever his issues were, he needs to figure it out. Can Quinn recommend something in his technique? Surely, but you either figure it out or you're placed as a punter.
Return men - underwhelming.
Backup players on roster - again underwhelming, and these are the guys who make up the majority of your unit. I don't see any Renee Thompson's playing gunner.
The special teams is more an idictment on those choosing player personnel rather than Quinn IMO.
Maybe the guy who decides which guys can play Special teams?
I will even give Quinn a pass on our own punt and KO returns since he doesn't not have anybody elusive to rely upon.
But our coverage teams are a complete mess; Weatherford regressed on him; gunners continually going out of bounds or running out of control passed their returners; snaps flying over our punter; players jumping offside on opposing field goal attempts; no awareness of the ball on short punts from the opposition; lack of judgment on fair catches near our own goal line; poor awareness of trick plays made by opposition....
did I miss anything?
Seriously though, I think management is giving Coughlin one more year to get back to the playoffs and they don't want to sign contracts for new guys that may be gone if/when a new regime comes in.
when was the last time the giants returned a punt of TD ( dominick hixon
in 2009)
meanwhile this year we gave up 2 punt returns for tds this year
lack of depth is not an excuse . every team fields the same number of players
the Vikings were 5 -10 but had the 6 th best unit according to Football outsiders
it is about coaching and this coach has been a failure almost his entire time here
Tom Coughlin, a future Hall of Fame coach thinks enough of the guy to bring him back.
I don't know, maybe I just don't get it, but isn't it possible Coughlin knows circumstances surrounding the poor special teams play that you don't?
On the one hand you guys kill Reese for his lousy drafts, especially the middle picks. And on the other hand you kill the coaches because their units don't perform will with the limited talent.
Go Figure
His units give up too many big plays and don't make enough big plays for their own team. And sometimes they get caught with their pants down (not ready for fakes or on-sides kicks) which should never happen to a pro team. This crap has been going on for several years now.
His players do not appear to be well coached as evidenced by their lack of proper procedures like breaking down and getting into position to tackle on kick coverage. And they certainly aren't very effective in blocking for kick and punt returns. Even Wilson's TD return should have been called back.
Granted Quinn hasn't had the best players to work with, but neither do most of the other special teams coaches around the league. At most they are going to get a very few guys beyond the kickers and LS who are special teams specialists.
This is another lost opportunity to make a significant change in what is becoming one of the least competitive teams in the entire NFL.
This year, arguably, Quinn could get a pass because the bottom of the roster was just awful.
If you dont have the players then how do you expect to be successful.
I trust this team understands its short-comings this year and will make the best decisions to dramatically improve for next season.
Or we can be the Redskins and just fire everyone every 2 years?
Giants apparently have the same attitude.
Welcome to the cellar of the NFL.
The Seahawks have allowed only 82 yards in punt returns THE ENTIRE SEASON. That is amazing.
when was the last time the giants returned a punt of TD ( dominick hixon
in 2009)
meanwhile this year we gave up 2 punt returns for tds this year
lack of depth is not an excuse . every team fields the same number of players
the Vikings were 5 -10 but had the 6 th best unit according to Football outsiders
it is about coaching and this coach has been a failure almost his entire time here
PREACH brutha! PREACH!
The Seahawks have allowed only 82 yards in punt returns THE ENTIRE SEASON. That is amazing.
Yes, you can have a very deep roster when your qb counts for under $1,000,000 against the cap.
Yes I care about the other 1/3 facet of the game that wins football games?
It would be nice to have some cap space when Seattle has to pay Wilson and SF has to pay Kaepernik. There is going to be some serious talent leaving those teams.
on a sidenote, actually shocked no one posted the michael scott "no no no nooooooooooo" gif yet
Quinn didn't coach guys to not stay in their lanes or coach them to block in the back all the time.
Randal was a horrible PR but what else did they have.?
KR is becoming less and less with all the strong legs ...
We'Ve had good specials in the past under him... It's NOT the coach
Anybody who thinks special teams don't make a difference in this league is just crazy. Crucial for field position, momentum and big plays.
And for a team that seems to hover around .500 every year with minimal contributions from special teams, my advice would be to invest more time & energy into this facet of the game as it may make the difference in getting to the playoffs more often than just once in the past 5 years.
This one?
My favorite one from this season came after the punt return TD by McCluster in Kansas City to break the game open.
That was fucking bullshit. Quinn should have learned. It would have been 20-7 Kansas city with 9 minutes left in the game.
I can give Quinn a break for damontre moore's offside penalties I guess
is this sarcasm or are you for real? you win and lose games due to special teams play!
You'd be wise to watch your ethnic slurs.
I was wrong. This guy is not a good coach. And I think the lack of accountability on the coaching staff and front office is a bad sign.
But on this, really blame should be set right at the feet of TC. Yet another reason why I think not making the head coaching change is foolish.
Exactly micky. Glibride retired this year rather than being fired next year. They're all gone once TC is done.
I happen to be of the mind that you could give Quinn his choice of the ENTIRE roster, the ENTIRE roster, any starter he wants and if you made me bet, I don't think we would see a material difference.
to be honest
after Gilbride leaving, I doubt any other major coaches go, too much change in one season
also Reese busting on so many draft picks has left the cupboard bare for ST's
That being said, outside of having David Wilson go off on KO returns last season, the Special Teams performance has been much less than mediocre over that same time period.
A change in ST coordinators to see if things improve would not have been the worst thing the Giants could try in order to get better.
I still wanted him gone...I just hope the above proves to be true.
Let have a discussion about this.
Are you saying that the ST coach is the reason the Giants do not have a reasonable (I would sign up for league average myself) punt return game?
The way it has been discussed from the coach (Coughlin) in stories over the years in addition to his own words, Coughlin would rather have "ball security" over a guy that can take a punt and return it 20 or 30 yards, who may make the occasional fumble or be reckless, try to make something out of nothing and wind up losing yardage.
Now, this can work if you had the offense the Giants had over the last few years prior to this season. The theory being that as long as the returned doesn't screw up, let's just give to the offense and let them do their thing.
Punt and kick returning is a very unique skill. You can't "coach it up." There is a reason only certain guys have been able to do it. Remember Willie Ponder?
For whatever reason, Coughlin has not stressed attempting to get points out of that specific position even before the kickoffs were moved up and touchbacks became the norm.
The coach has to believe in it before serious change is made.
That being said, outside of having David Wilson go off on KO returns last season, the Special Teams performance has been much less than mediocre over that same time period.
A change in ST coordinators to see if things improve would not have been the worst thing the Giants could try in order to get better.
If the roster has been mediocre as a whole as suggested, why should the special teams have been good?
This is like the Giant mantra that they don't value Linebackers enough to invest heavily in them. When it is more like they don't have anybody good at that position so they deflate it in discussing their defensive strategy.
Quote:
so our entire roster has been fairly mediocre for a while.
That being said, outside of having David Wilson go off on KO returns last season, the Special Teams performance has been much less than mediocre over that same time period.
A change in ST coordinators to see if things improve would not have been the worst thing the Giants could try in order to get better.
If the roster has been mediocre as a whole as suggested, why should the special teams have been good?
The point is that the ST have not even been consistently mediocre. Good is way out in the distance.
(factored over)
crappy coaches who keep jobs
as opposed to
Baldies, shorties, and guys who wear hoodies
(factored over)
X
this organisation could use an influx of freaks, geeks, short people, fatties, anti-socialites, and so forth.
'social cohesion' and 'our type of people' can only take a task so far, and we have a major task ahead of us.
But they went from 30th in 2010 to 15th in 2011 to 10th in 2012.
Wilson wasn't on the team in 2011. So what can explain the drastic improvement from the previous year?
Quote:
The point is that the ST have not even been consistently mediocre. Good is way out in the distance.
But they went from 30th in 2010 to 15th in 2011 to 10th in 2012.
Wilson wasn't on the team in 2011. So what can explain the drastic improvement from the previous year?
Getting rid of Matt Dodge for Weatherford. Dodge was a trainwreck in 2010.
Why do you all have man-crushes for Tom Quinn? :)
Dude, having an opinion on a team I root for many years does not equate to you accusing anyone of over dramatizing the retention of a coach. Thank you Tony Robbins!
Headhunter, agree we have a lack of personnel on specials, but there are many times in games where we are just out of place, not maintaining lanes and that's on coaching.