Pro-football-reference.com is an excellent reference for statistics. In recent years, they have tried to beef up their subjective content. One such enhancement has been the classification of each team's offense by "scheme". In 2013, categories were:
West Coast (Jets, Dolphins, Bengals, Colts, Jaguars, Texans, Chiefs, Raiders, Redskins, Packers, Bears, Vikings, Seahawks, 49ers)
Air Coryell (Bills, Ravens, Browns, Cowboys, Lions, Saints, Falcons, Cardinals, Rams)
Erhardt-Perkins (Pats, Steelers, Broncos, Chargers, Giants, Panthers)
Spread (Eagles)
Balanced (Titans, Bucs)
There was previously a category called "Smashmouth", typified by the Tony Sparano/Dan Henning Dolphins, but nobody appears to have fit that description this year.
I'm curious whether these categories seem valid to the X-and O experts on the board, and whether the 2013 lists look right. The topic is timely as the Giants seek a new offensive coordinator.
One casual observation: The Erhardt-Perkins teams have enjoyed a fair amount of success, but that success may simply reflect a very high level of play at quarterback by guys like Brady, Peyton and (less consistently) Roethlisberger/Rivers/Eli.
I haven't watched enough of the Panthers to even venture a guess.
Bucs and Giants belong together, but I don't see them in the same category as the Steelers at all. (I guess Bucs won't belong next year, tho)
Just don't see how Giants is in same category as Denver/NE. And I'm not talking about results. Both of those teams run a ton of plays out of bunch formations, a lot of crossing routes, and a lot of pick plays. They both also tend to throw shorter passes and rely on YAC, whereas the Giants tend to throw deeper routes.
Do those offenses maybe have the same source? Sure, I guess- but they've been changed enough that they should be in different categories.
IMO.
Tampa last 2 years did run our system which is a most certainly a hybrid power run game with run and shoot principles
possibly we needed one more wr who could do mind meld with eli
RetroJint : 12/11/2013 8:30 pm : link : Delete
Beyond doubt. Gilbride has said that many times. Gilbride ran a version of Mouse Davis's Run& Shoot offense when he was with the Oilers. They were very successful. The offense made Warren Moon a Hall-of-Fame quarterback. Moon thanked Gilbride during his induction speech at Canton. Umm-Boomer Esiason didn't mention Gilbride....except he's not in the Hall of Fame. Never had that chance did you Big Mouth? OK so the Oilers used 4 wides and Lorenzo White. They would sub in a fullback and/or TE in certain short-yardage situations. First point: Coughlin never allows Gilbride to use 4 wides. Rather, I should say, it's been years. Early on they did it a bit. The quarterback is going to get hit from that formation. Coughlin has had as a central tenet to his philosophy the need to protect Eli. Keep Eli upright as they say.
What is Coughlin's offense? In NFL passing history think of a tree trunk which represents the commanlity in the passing game. All offenses have vastly similar components to them. Routes, by and large, are the same. The divergent branches in the passing game stemmed from Bill Walsh and his development of what became known as the West Coast Offense when he was an assistant coach with the Bengals (not sure they called them coordinators then). The great neophyte quarterback Greg Cook suffered a catastrophic, career-ending shoulder injury, which caused Walsh to turn to Virgil Carter, who was the first of the modern-era BYU quarterbacks. Carter was a cast-off from the Bears. He was nimble of foot and mind but did not possess much of an arm, although he was accurate on the short routes. From necessity was born the WCO. From that school you had the Walsh acolytes: Sam Wyche, Mike Holmgren, Andy Reid, Mike Shanahan,Jon Gruden, Denny Green etc.
Coughlin's offense came from the other branch of the common passing tree trunk. That was the one of Don Coryell. This offense emphasized the downfield passing attack that is a signature component to it. And I should note that the tree trunk should be named Sid Gillman. Coryell's followers included Ray Perkins, Joe Gibbs, Ron Erhardt, Ernie Zampese and ....Tom Coughlin. What he ran at Jacksonville is somewhat different than his Giants years because his quarterback with Jags-Mark Brunnell, could run. Parcells ran this offense his entire coaching career. Deeper routes, Deep shots off play action. Control the game behind a big, offensive line and the running game. Go deep once the second and third tiers of the defense bit down hard on play-action.
Gilbride has been divorced from the Run & Shoot for years. That offense was created by Mouse Davis at Portland St when had Neil Lomax. Then he further developed it when he was in the CFL, where the wider fields and legally allowed multiple-motions provided benefical conditions for its metamorphis. Everybody thinks June Jones now when the R&S is mentioned but it's really Mouse Davis who schooled these guys. This was sort of a renegade version of the WCO.
Bullshit analysis that is presently populating the Internet by Patti T & Bleacher Shit Shots: All NFL passing routes are multiple and require "reads." That is what the West Coast offense is. It's a series of reads. In that sense the offense is "Read and React." A comment that Gillbride made to the WSJ reporter is being taken widely out of context, by people who have an agenda. The option routes are found in both great schools of the passing game. The difference is the preponderance of the long pass in Coughlin's system vs the dink and dunk aspect to the doctrinaire WCO systems. BTW: Shanahan, Jim Fassel and Sean Payton run hybrid offenses. It's tough to categorize them as WCO. They're run intensive. They'll run the whole god-damn game if you don't stop them.
So don't shit your pants about "complication" vs "simplicity" in your discussions about the Giants passing game. Do concern yourself with the team's inability to run (except vs the Bears and Cowboys in their second game) 2 consecutive successful running plays all season. Do concern yourself with the fact that people like Louis Murphy Jr and Jerrel Jernigan are sub-par NFL players. After this season concludes neither will play in NFL again.
What would the Giants offense look like if Gilbride had his way? More 4s, spread the field, more "hots," compelling Eli to throw to the open spot of the defense vacated by the blitzer. Less 2 tights. Less loads. It's not him. He doesn't want the claustrophobia. He would run, as Lorenzo White did, against the thinned out defensive box. But that's not Coughlin. And it's not ownership either with what they're paying Eli. That is another aspect to this situation that people miss entirely. Son of Squit would have had a Woody as long as the Hudson if in 2 or 3 of these seasons past Eli had missed say half the season or perhaps 15 games in one.
Lastly what happened this season? Did this offense become obsolete as has been said? Too complicated all of a sudden although a guy like Mario Manningham, who tested poorly in the Wonderlic, did pretty well in it, didn't he? What happened this year is they've reached the point where they can no longer deal an effective game plan from attrition- model strategies. There are simply too many points of weakness. They're coaching to keep the offensive line at least at a semi-proficient performance level. They can't get down the field. When they do the receivers won't fight and/or Eli is throwing some pretty bad balls. Constantly now-it has to be said. He has games when of his 30 throws maybe 12 aren't sharp. Some get completed but in a manner that forces the receiver to relinquish any possibility of gaining YAC. If they had a guy who could extend passing plays, buy time, make the first rusher miss, they could still get it downfield. But Eli can't do that.
Check out this link...
Link - ( New Window )
Anyway, back to the topic at hand - GREAT thread blogger, cool topic to debate & discuss as we search for a new OC & possibly system.
Cowboys switched to the Erhardt Perkins system last year but I'm still a bit fuzzy to what that "system" actually is, like Chris I thought it was about terminology but when I heard the Cowboys "switched systems" I figured I misinterpreted something along the way.
Which is another reason why I don't think we're a Erhardt/Perkins team, Gilbride always said we couldn't go no huddle more because it would limit our playbook.
Looking at a Coryell playbook, it doesn't appear to have a whole lot of 'reads' for the WR. They did incorporate a lot of pre-snap motion however.
Think more of '99 Rams for Air Coryell type offense.
Don Coryell Chargers playbook - ( New Window )
I can see where a West Coast passing attack and a zone-based running game would value some of the same attributes in offensive lineman.
Also, the waggle, the boot and the short flood patterns off of sprint and rollout QB action are made more effective when the OL gets the DL moving in the opposite direction that your QB is moving to.
Andy, the route tree numbering system is nothing more than a way to identify the routes while shortening the verbage.
You can call three patterns by saying something like "758" and the X, Y and Z all know their respective patterns. Much quicker than saying sluggo, short dig, post-corner.
All teams use some version of the tree numbering system.
I don't think Coryell was the first to use it.
Putting NFL offenses in categories is much tougher these days than it used to be. Most are variations with elements of each other's systems thrown in. They all run some zone scheme, some principles of WC and they all run some run and shoot principles.
You can identify the base, but the systems are almost all blended to some degree.
And because the Saints throw the ball a lot they're considered Air Coryell? Doubtful. It's interesting they chose that since Payton obviously has the same type relationship as Fox/Belichick/Coughlin with coaches who ran the Erhardt-Perkins.
To me it seems like a bogus list, they based on contextual clues of past systems and past relationships, but I'm not going to pretend to know for sure. I don't know their playbooks. But...I doubt the website has seen all their playbooks either.
Example...
Washington in 2012 mostly ran Baylor's offense to make it an easier transition for Bob. This year they mostly ran Shanahan's version of a WCO, which I think is a part of why Bob struggled this year.
Am I way off on my thinking or is this pretty accurate?
Quote:
Coughlin's Offense
RetroJint : 12/11/2013 8:30 pm : link : Delete
Beyond doubt. Gilbride has said that many times. Gilbride ran a version of Mouse Davis's Run& Shoot offense when he was with the Oilers. They were very successful. The offense made Warren Moon a Hall-of-Fame quarterback. Moon thanked Gilbride during his induction speech at Canton. Umm-Boomer Esiason didn't mention Gilbride....except he's not in the Hall of Fame. Never had that chance did you Big Mouth? OK so the Oilers used 4 wides and Lorenzo White. They would sub in a fullback and/or TE in certain short-yardage situations. First point: Coughlin never allows Gilbride to use 4 wides. Rather, I should say, it's been years. Early on they did it a bit. The quarterback is going to get hit from that formation. Coughlin has had as a central tenet to his philosophy the need to protect Eli. Keep Eli upright as they say.
What is Coughlin's offense? In NFL passing history think of a tree trunk which represents the commanlity in the passing game. All offenses have vastly similar components to them. Routes, by and large, are the same. The divergent branches in the passing game stemmed from Bill Walsh and his development of what became known as the West Coast Offense when he was an assistant coach with the Bengals (not sure they called them coordinators then). The great neophyte quarterback Greg Cook suffered a catastrophic, career-ending shoulder injury, which caused Walsh to turn to Virgil Carter, who was the first of the modern-era BYU quarterbacks. Carter was a cast-off from the Bears. He was nimble of foot and mind but did not possess much of an arm, although he was accurate on the short routes. From necessity was born the WCO. From that school you had the Walsh acolytes: Sam Wyche, Mike Holmgren, Andy Reid, Mike Shanahan,Jon Gruden, Denny Green etc.
Coughlin's offense came from the other branch of the common passing tree trunk. That was the one of Don Coryell. This offense emphasized the downfield passing attack that is a signature component to it. And I should note that the tree trunk should be named Sid Gillman. Coryell's followers included Ray Perkins, Joe Gibbs, Ron Erhardt, Ernie Zampese and ....Tom Coughlin. What he ran at Jacksonville is somewhat different than his Giants years because his quarterback with Jags-Mark Brunnell, could run. Parcells ran this offense his entire coaching career. Deeper routes, Deep shots off play action. Control the game behind a big, offensive line and the running game. Go deep once the second and third tiers of the defense bit down hard on play-action.
Gilbride has been divorced from the Run & Shoot for years. That offense was created by Mouse Davis at Portland St when had Neil Lomax. Then he further developed it when he was in the CFL, where the wider fields and legally allowed multiple-motions provided benefical conditions for its metamorphis. Everybody thinks June Jones now when the R&S is mentioned but it's really Mouse Davis who schooled these guys. This was sort of a renegade version of the WCO.
Bullshit analysis that is presently populating the Internet by Patti T & Bleacher Shit Shots: All NFL passing routes are multiple and require "reads." That is what the West Coast offense is. It's a series of reads. In that sense the offense is "Read and React." A comment that Gillbride made to the WSJ reporter is being taken widely out of context, by people who have an agenda. The option routes are found in both great schools of the passing game. The difference is the preponderance of the long pass in Coughlin's system vs the dink and dunk aspect to the doctrinaire WCO systems. BTW: Shanahan, Jim Fassel and Sean Payton run hybrid offenses. It's tough to categorize them as WCO. They're run intensive. They'll run the whole god-damn game if you don't stop them.
So don't shit your pants about "complication" vs "simplicity" in your discussions about the Giants passing game. Do concern yourself with the team's inability to run (except vs the Bears and Cowboys in their second game) 2 consecutive successful running plays all season. Do concern yourself with the fact that people like Louis Murphy Jr and Jerrel Jernigan are sub-par NFL players. After this season concludes neither will play in NFL again.
What would the Giants offense look like if Gilbride had his way? More 4s, spread the field, more "hots," compelling Eli to throw to the open spot of the defense vacated by the blitzer. Less 2 tights. Less loads. It's not him. He doesn't want the claustrophobia. He would run, as Lorenzo White did, against the thinned out defensive box. But that's not Coughlin. And it's not ownership either with what they're paying Eli. That is another aspect to this situation that people miss entirely. Son of Squit would have had a Woody as long as the Hudson if in 2 or 3 of these seasons past Eli had missed say half the season or perhaps 15 games in one.
Lastly what happened this season? Did this offense become obsolete as has been said? Too complicated all of a sudden although a guy like Mario Manningham, who tested poorly in the Wonderlic, did pretty well in it, didn't he? What happened this year is they've reached the point where they can no longer deal an effective game plan from attrition- model strategies. There are simply too many points of weakness. They're coaching to keep the offensive line at least at a semi-proficient performance level. They can't get down the field. When they do the receivers won't fight and/or Eli is throwing some pretty bad balls. Constantly now-it has to be said. He has games when of his 30 throws maybe 12 aren't sharp. Some get completed but in a manner that forces the receiver to relinquish any possibility of gaining YAC. If they had a guy who could extend passing plays, buy time, make the first rusher miss, they could still get it downfield. But Eli can't do that.
I think about the 2008 team after we won the Superbowl the previous year. That was the most dominant Giants offense I've seen in my lifetime. I think the key was our running game which made the passing game that more effective. We had Jacobs, Ward, and Bradshaw. I still remember running roughshod over good defenses that year like the Ravens and Panthers.
Giants have been the Erhardt dive and counter ground game married to a run and shoot air game (streak/read).
The Giant's brand is (has been) merging the two concepts into a play action offense on intermediate downs, to great success.
After the second championship, defenses have been attacking the stem of the routes, effectively, forcing the receiver to make the RIGHT decision into safety coverage.
By far my favorite regular season game ever. I remember looking at my father and saying "enjoy this cause this is a good as it will ever be"