The case for TE in rd 1 for NYG

it's a premium pick and you don't shoehorn a need based on what may or may not be there in Round 2. It's where the tiered approach makes a lot of sense. You look at guys with similar grades and go with the one who is the best fit. Now if Ebron or Amaro are in the top 10-15 players in the draft in the Giants' estimation sure, but they have enough needs on both sides of the ball, needs at positions with a lot of talent such as OL, that there is no need to reach.

really have to like TE like Ebron to grab him in the 1st round. I'm thinking right now the pick will be a tackle. I'll guess again after free agency.

And I'd take him at #12 without any hesitation, I don't think the Giants would (ditto for Ebron). However, I do hope that they'll draft a good prospect relatively early, one whose skillset can make an immediate impact on the offense...not another "athlete" like Robinson.

I agree with you and we are both Amaro fans. The only way I see the Giants drafting Ebron or Amaro is if McAdoo stresses how important a TE is to his offense. Yes, we know that people are going to bitch about the OL and rightfully so but that doesn't mean the only way to fix the OL is with our first round pick. I fully expect us to sign two veteran FA and address OL at some point during the first three rounds if not first two. We still have to address CB as well which seems to be getting overlooked for the most part.

A factor that may discourage them going after Ebron or Amaro is that there are some intriguing TE prospects that could be had in the second round or later. I think Niklas is one of those guys but even he could sneak into the 1st round.

I wanted a Te in round one a couple years ago. We should have grabbed aan O-lineman than. Have to pay for past mistakes this year unless free agency give Giants a quick fix. Even if it does I would still like an O-lineman in round one who is good enough to fight his way into the starting line-up. Good blocking TE helps to but good blocking TE's for the Giants are always beat up and missing time. Giants need to start winning up front at the line on both sides of the ball.

Same with guards, fullbacks and safeties. I like us trading up for another 2nd round pick and take Notre Dame's Troy Niklas.

I agree. Obviously OL is a huge need. However, part of me wants a new weapon at the TE spot. Not just a 2 way TE, but someone who can really be an impact player at TE.

Tony Gonzalez, 13th; Jeremy Shockey, 14th. It does happen when the talent warrants it.

get criticized for not being a good inline blocker. From my eyes, he was a good inline blocker. People are saying he is not a good inline blocker because he was split out wide most of the time. Not doing something does not equal not being able to do something. And for those that have watched him block when he was split out realize he is just a nasty dude out there. He would just maul DBs.

then Interior OL round 2

Well, I think that in today's game the line between WR and TE is getting pretty blurry. A guy like Amaro, a pass-catching machine, would do just as much for our offense as any WR in the draft, in my opinion.

everyone is saying OL.. and rightfully so... but the problem is that our MAJOR issue at OL is not the OT spot.. Its the Interior of the OL and those are usually drafted in rounds 2 and 3..

The Giants could use a real game changer at the TE position. Our new OC was a TE coach for years and the Packers utilize multiple TE formations. McAdoo will want to have a quality TE in his offense.

Eli is a better QB when he has a quality TE as an outlet and challenging the seams. A quality TE also opens up the passing lanes for others because he will draw defenders.

A real TE is very important to this offsnse. We need to stop the revolving door at this position.

UNSTOPPABLE !!!!!

but, is there a chance with a change of scheme that Myers reverts back to how productive he was in Oakland?

Can put a stamp on what the Giants will or won't do. I think with the way most good teams in the league today have great tight ends, never say never.

I agree with most of everything in your last post but this one fact. The one thing this offense is desperately missing besides a TE and OL is speed. I wouldn't look at any of our offensive players except for Cruz and say that teams have to worry about somebody getting deep or has the ability to separate in man coverage. Watkins would provide an element that this offense is lacking which is one of many elements at this moment in time. I also think Watkins is a pipe dream because of where we sit in the draft. Even if four QBs go in the top 11 picks. That still leaves 7 picks. 1 will be Clowney. Which is now down to 6. I'm guessing another is Matthews which brings the number down to five. I don't see 5 other draft picks jumping ahead of him although some will.

I was thinking about that too. If I am Myers, all of a sudden, I am happy because now I am used to similar passing concepts that allowed me to be productive with the Raiders. However, I still want a more athletic and faster TE that would be used a viable weapon.

are you implying that we resign him? Myers was signed to a multi year deal but it was set up to basically be a one year prove it deal.

Is signed. It was a two year deal, with the second year voidable (based on what I have read).

We really do need 1 OG and possibly a C. I wish I saved the work I did reguarding G's and C's in the draft, because it proved that excellent C's and G's can be had in the 2nd round. The G's and C's are lunchbox positions.

If you follow this link you will see that this is true.

Link - ( New Window )

That's where I expect the Giants will use their first pick. Expect some smoke though.

Myers is making over $4 million this year but we can save over $3 by cutting him. I think this is a no-brainer that he will be released.
Link - ( New Window )

Sort by career avg, games started and season started and you will see the truth.

Then do your own search for different positions and you will see that, it is much more difficult to find good players in the later rounds.

If you sort TE's in rounds 1-4 you will see that 1st round TE's have the best chance of succeeding.
Link - ( New Window )

In comment 11462170 robbieballs2003 said:

Quote:

I agree with most of everything in your last post but this one fact. The one thing this offense is desperately missing besides a TE and OL is speed. I wouldn't look at any of our offensive players except for Cruz and say that teams have to worry about somebody getting deep or has the ability to separate in man coverage. Watkins would provide an element that this offense is lacking which is one of many elements at this moment in time. I also think Watkins is a pipe dream because of where we sit in the draft. Even if four QBs go in the top 11 picks. That still leaves 7 picks. 1 will be Clowney. Which is now down to 6. I'm guessing another is Matthews which brings the number down to five. I don't see 5 other draft picks jumping ahead of him although some will.

Robbie I dont see Watkins lasting to the Giants. I dont see him getting past Detroit @ #10... But if by some miracle he made it to the Giants.. I dont think there is anyone on the Giants that could run to the podium fast enough to draft Watkins.. I think Evans will move up if he can run in 4.45-4.55 range which would be excellent for someone his size..

UNSTOPPABLE?

Robbie, I hear you. The need for speed is something that AnishPatel has stressed, too.

that link was for 2015. Here is the link for 2014 which is basically the same.
Link - ( New Window )

It's because we have no speed on offense. Outside of Cruz, who is the explosive home run threat? We have no TE, no RB, no X, our Z isn't that.. Who? Slow ass offense. We need speed. That's why I would hate drafting Evans.

Two of his former Packer TE's are free agents, Jermichael Finley and Andrew Quarless. Finley had a career threatening injury in October so alot depends on the medical. Quarless, his replacement finished strong with 15 catches, 182 yards and 2 TDs in December. I could see either (or quite frankly both) coming to the Giants to help implement the offense. The thing is, Finley and Quarless were 3rd and 5th round picks respectively. He knows how to get production out of TE's and like it or not, that's probably why Mike Pope is no longer the coach. Not that Pope was incapable but I think McAdoo is confident in his abilities without having to spend a 1st rd pick on it.

Besides, we have more pressing needs I believe, even after free agency and no one from this TE class should go as high as 12 in my opinion, including Amaro and Ebron.

I'm not sure that's there in Ebron. He'd more likely be split out. He creates mismatches, but it's not a versatile role. If Amaro is the blocker that his size suggests he can be (and that those who watched him regularly say he flashed when asked) you get that. You get a guy who can play 3-downs, who can chip DEs and rushing LBs on the way out, run block, and allow for a convincing play action game. With Myers it didn't matter because he couldn't run block for shit and he wasn't a mismatch in the passing game. Pascoe wasn't an effective blocker or a pass-catcher. Bennett was an excellent blocker and while not the best receiver was big enough to be a physical mismatch for most DBs.

trade up in the 2nd or back into the late first to take a TE than to take one with the 12th pick. What would it cost to move up to one of the first 3 picks in the 2nd round? Our 2nd(11 in rd 2) and our 4th(14 in rd 4) to get one of the early picks in the 2nd round? If there's someone we love, we can trade our 2 and 3 to get into the late first easy.

I like Evans. He reminds me of Jordy Nelson. I have two issues. One, at 12 I do think there is a lot of risk because I do have concerns about him separating at the next level. Two, this is a very deep WR class and possibly the deepest in some time. If you take Evans at 12 you have to be 100% convinced that what he has shown in college will be the same player you get in the pros. There is a lot to like about him. I said I have liked him on many occasions but I also understand the concerns that some people have. Amaro seems like a rarer breed. That is why I like him more at 12 than Evans.

If Watkins was available I would be doing backflips up to the podium.

unable to run the ball effectively and Eli gets intercepted because he doesn't have enough time to throw the ball. You can have the best TE in the history of the game, Eli won't be able to get him the ball from his back. Why does it make sense to move a guy with all pro credentials to another position? Leave Pugh where he is and draft a true LT if Beatty is a liability.

as a pass blocker and a run blocker will make that line look a lot better. Brandon Pettigrew might be a decent signing if he doesn't re-up with the Lions. Yes we still need to improve the personnel, especially on the interior of the OL, but it's not just about that.

to go that way.

To me there are bigger needs on the team, and the talent likely to be there at 12 favors picking OL, WR, CB (if DD drops) or perhaps LB (if they like Mosley enough) as opposed to a TE.

about separation on the next level..

a lot of WCO passing concepts, or switching systems, then we are going to need a TE. So that is a need, though not high vs other needs, but right now we have no one. That position is bare.

If I had to take a guess today without know anything else I would say we would draft Dennard or a corner they like more than him. The reason I say that is Reese really wanted Revis but wound up with Ross. He drafted Prince when he fell in their lap. Right now Prince is really all we have at the position. I also say this because it is easier to sign OGs in FA than corners when it comes to top FAs available. CBs just demand more money. We need another starter at CB let alone probably 4-5 total depending on what other DBs are used (Rolle, Hill, Mundy, Taylor, Brown, etc). I think just in terms of position without taking value into the equation I think we go CB in round one and OL in round two. Obviously this is just my opinion, value in the draft changes that opinion drastically and so does FA.

I'd hope the blue chip guy would be on the offensive side of the ball. We have no one after Prince at CB. So obviously that is a huge need too. That's the beauty of picking 12th. Someone we get will be top talent. Just a matter of who and what position.

In comment 11462222 AnishPatel said:

Quote:

a lot of WCO passing concepts, or switching systems, then we are going to need a TE. So that is a need, though not high vs other needs, but right now we have no one. That position is bare.

I agree, Anish. But there's a chance we could land Niklas in Rd 2 or Fiedorowicz in Rd. 3, which seems a better use of assets than Amaro at 12 in Rd. 1

But one thing to see if those TEs fit the skill set for the system, or to the lesser extent the passing concepts we are now going to run? If our TE is going to be more of a pass catching TE, then how are these guys athletically? Can they create mismatches or are they the Boss and Ballard mold? If that's the case, that model for TE may not apply, thus warranting us to pick Ebron or Amaro, who would be a lot more athletic.

It all depends on how we create the board, and how much say the OC has in getting the personnel needed to run his system or like I said to a lesser extent his passing concepts that are different than what we ran in the past.

In comment 11462206 redraider12 said:

Quote:

unable to run the ball effectively and Eli gets intercepted because he doesn't have enough time to throw the ball. You can have the best TE in the history of the game, Eli won't be able to get him the ball from his back. Why does it make sense to move a guy with all pro credentials to another position? Leave Pugh where he is and draft a true LT if Beatty is a liability.

Here is your problem with that statement.. The Giants have committed a lot of money to Beatty.. and once again the MAIN problem with the Giants is not Beatty.. its the INTERIOR of the OL.. Centers and Guards.. This is the chief weakness of the Giants OL.. There isnt a Chance Warmack in this draft. The Giants will be able to get a quality guard or center in the draft.. and in honesty I expect them to address at least one of those positions in FA long before the draft. I believe they will go after Green Bay's center which makes sense...

The main issue as I see it is that Eli never had a pocket top step up into. wasnt able to step forward into his throws which obviously causes some passes to sail which leads to INT's and severely affects the running game.. Inconsistency in the interior also affects your LT.. One week its Boothe next to Beatty.. then its Brewer next to Beatty.. an OL is about continuity more than anything.. an real OL is an organism... not just the individual pieces...

spinal fusion surgery. No thanks.

I could easily see us going Amaro in round 2 if he's there.

In comment 11462224 robbieballs2003 said:

Quote:

If I had to take a guess today without know anything else I would say we would draft Dennard or a corner they like more than him. The reason I say that is Reese really wanted Revis but wound up with Ross. He drafted Prince when he fell in their lap. Right now Prince is really all we have at the position. I also say this because it is easier to sign OGs in FA than corners when it comes to top FAs available. CBs just demand more money. We need another starter at CB let alone probably 4-5 total depending on what other DBs are used (Rolle, Hill, Mundy, Taylor, Brown, etc). I think just in terms of position without taking value into the equation I think we go CB in round one and OL in round two. Obviously this is just my opinion, value in the draft changes that opinion drastically and so does FA.

robbie, that's why I said CB if DD falls. I could definitely see them taking him if he's there at 12. I guess Justin Gilbert might be a target there as well. We sure do need a CB. I'm hoping that we land a starter in FA, but if not a #1 for a CB seems a good use of assets to me.

With that high of a pick you want to take the best player available increasing the odds that he will end up a future star regardless of the position. It really should be less about needs and more about maximizing the selection.

The TE coming out the last few years are not 2 way TE. Amaro spends almost every snap off the line. Ebron doesn't block and is light. They are offensive, downfield threat, pass catching TE - something almost every team in the NFL has, sans the Giants

If you could trade into the 20's and get either of them that is great, but not at 12.

If you can get a FA TE cheap they may go that route. There are a few out there that could be had

how much the TE is used by McAddo. If a TE is a big part of his system or added passing concepts, then cheap FA TE may not cut it. I actually want us to invest in a TE that will be here more than 1 year. We better be smart about it too, because we fired the best TE coach in the league. So no more grab any TE and have Pope coach him up mentality.

If Watkins is on the board you take him.
If Khalid Mack is on the board he is my 2nd choice.
If Dennard is still on the board he's my third choice.

If OL is the way the Giants go I think Lewan is the best guy probably left on the board when the Giants pick.

QB, LT, DE and CB

not likely to change anytime soon

a starting CB opposite Prince carries huge value in that

*it's in top tier of positional importance

*it's a huge need, currently nobody opposite Prince

*it carries high value, as the only way you get top shelf CB's is by drafting them high or spending big $$ in free agency

as much as Ebron (for example) makes sense i think it's a CB or the best blocker available !

so while we have nothing at TE - we can't afford to use a top 12 pick on one

But has to be OL (Either G or OT). Like Banks has stated: There needs to be a parade of elephants coming in through there.

In fact I have a hard time believing the Giants go TE in the first round with the issues on the front line - and we have a better WR corps than anyone is giving us credit for -

No this is the order of priority for the first found - OL, CB, DE

and that is it

The Giants clearly need a new TE. But there are too many other needs to dedicate a first rounder. The position is more a luxury and when you have gaping holes elsewhere, I hope the giants look elsewhere in the 1st and 2nd rds.

In comment 11462303 gidiefor said:

Quote:

In fact I have a hard time believing the Giants go TE in the first round with the issues on the front line - and we have a better WR corps than anyone is giving us credit for - No this is the order of priority for the first found - OL, CB, DE and that is it

what WR corps ???

Cruz.. ok..
Nicks.. and i love the guy.. subpar the last two years and a FA
Randle.. has proven zero...
Jernigan.. just got to ok level but isnt keeping anyone awake at night...

One injury.. ONE and this corps is in the toilet....

And invest a high pick on someone who's going to move the chains, stretch the seams, create mismatches, and score touchdowns in the red zone, i.e., make our offense dramatically more efficient and quite possibly more explosive. A legitimate threat who would also create opportunities for the WRs and RBs, and who would be joined at the hip with Eli for the next four years.

You can do that with a TE like Amaro, and you can still use the remainder of your picks to upgrade the OL and CBs (in addition to what you can do in free agency).

instead of by need when they drafted LT. When he was drafted their LB's were arguably their strongest position and they had tremendous needs elsewhere, but you don't pass up better talent for lesser talent just to fill a spot.

I agree and you and I wanted Eifert. I was so many when he was on the clock. Then we went Pugh and now I am happy with the pick. We obviously need OL but we need to get Eli a lot more weapons and speed on the offense.

Fix the o-line first.

we already picked up some new interior lineman in Free Agency. If we have not, then forget about it.

The knee-jerk reaction is to select a playmaker with our Rd 1 pick. But if you have any self-respect as a Giant fan and watched even one game last season, you can't possibly defend doing anything else but invest in the O-line.

In comment 11462393 Ten Ton Hammer said:

Quote:

Fix the o-line first.

Who said it would have? Why are people choosing to live in a vacuum? Our first round pick isn't the only way we can improve the team. I am pretty sure that others along with myself have said that the OL needs to be improved and IF WE WENT WITH A TE IN THE FIRST THAT WOULD BE BECAUSE WE ADDRESSED OL IN FA. Why is this such a hard concept to understand?

On top of all that, another excellent point that was brought up was that we need interior OL help not necessarily OT help. What guard is worth our first round pick? Like it or not we are stuck with Beatty probably for at least two more years. He has shown to be a solid OT and he has shown to not be a solid OT. We need to have him return to form. That is the best we can do with the money tied up in him.

Nobody is saying that we should draft a TE at the expense of our OL, nobody. Also, nobody said a TE is going to fix our OL. What was said and really cannot be argued is that a TE can HELP our OL out. That is something we didn't get this year and what we have gotten in the past. The player doesn't have to just help out as an inline blocker. If we go with a TE on the field and split him out then one of two things is going to happen. One, a LB is going to have to walk outside of the box. Two, a secondary player is going to have to walk outside the box. In either case it is one less player in the box that is a potential threat to our OL. It is possible that an OL would be responsible for a player coming off the edge but that also gives the OL/QB more time to see that player coming but would more than likely be picked up by a back.

for about any position on the team

but the organizational premium posts are most likely to be correct, that is, look at the value at #12 at CB and OL, given DE and WR appear light this year.

Justin Gilbert would look great in blue.

Personally I think I'd be good with Gilbert or Dennard, but I'm not sure that Sy or WA/P rate them a 12 pick. I don't think that they think there's a real shutdown corner in this class. Outside of Matthews, who should be gone, there's some question whether anyone else at OT is worth a 12 pick. So I see the pick as pretty wide open. The few "sure things" will be gone by the time we pick.

a few OL should be plenty of value at #12, but there's a ton of time between now and May to get it sorted.

Gilbert may or may not be a "shutdown" corner, but that term is overrated by fans. If he's the BPA at #12, we're good pairing him up with Prince.

In comment 11462224 robbieballs2003 said:

Quote:

If I had to take a guess today without know anything else I would say we would draft Dennard or a corner they like more than him. The reason I say that is Reese really wanted Revis but wound up with Ross. He drafted Prince when he fell in their lap. Right now Prince is really all we have at the position. I also say this because it is easier to sign OGs in FA than corners when it comes to top FAs available. CBs just demand more money. We need another starter at CB let alone probably 4-5 total depending on what other DBs are used (Rolle, Hill, Mundy, Taylor, Brown, etc). I think just in terms of position without taking value into the equation I think we go CB in round one and OL in round two. Obviously this is just my opinion, value in the draft changes that opinion drastically and so does FA.

I agree. If Dennard is a possible shut down corner, we need to take him. Our Def will keep us in the games. With so many holes on Off and Def, we should take pick 12 with highest rated player

I think Pugh is the future LT....Pugh and Lewan would make a hell of a bookend OT duo.

If you think you are getting a Vernon Davis-type player at #12, you have to make the TE pick. That's if you spend some coin on a C & G in free agency.

they should definitely consider them. Our new OC has a strong background coaching TE's. In recent years Green Bay has had a significant role for their TE's and we'll be adapting that system to fit our personnel and needs.

As things stand today our weakest positions are OL, CB, MIKE and TE. If Beason can be inked that concern will be removed.

Could be the guy, much as I like Amaro.

...cut Myers, sign FA Jimmy Graham away from the Saints. Ok, so he'll never see FA. True. But a guy can dream... I wanna hear Eli to Graham next season. Ok... McAdoo knows Andrew Quarless as well as anybody. Maybe he's a reasonable acquisition in McAdoo's mind. But no round 1 TA in draft... please. Fix that line. If the OT picked at 12th plays as well as Pugh played his rookie year, then he was value at 12th and will cost a quarter in CAP what it would cost to bring in a good FA.

Is one of the players I think rh NYG will be considering, however I have heard he is being compared to Incognito in tempermant and if his off the field behavior cam not be controlled he could slide. That being said a nasty sob on the OL would greatly help in there overall toughness. I am hoping the pick is either lewan, robinson or one of the TE.

-Sign 2 $$$ interior OL in free agency.

-Draft Ebron @ # 12.

-Draft best OL on board @ # 43. Preferably a big, mauling OG/RT type. Not sure this is realistic at #43, but you never know.


I think Lewan & Ebron will certainly be in the discussion. I think Reese may see Lewan as another Nate Solder, who we supposedly liked alot. Big, tall (6'7), athletic, former DL, nasty, which is what this line needs to offset guys like Brewer & Beatty.

the Giants are not going to pay Beatty that kind of money to play at guard or to sit on the bench... period.. the PROBLEM is much greater on the interior of the OL... period...

The Giants have had a revolving door at TE. They arent signing Jimmy Graham.. forget about that.. This is one of the better TE classes in a few years and the Giants need one badly... There is definitely a case for drafting a TE in round one.. You can get a good one.. you can get him on the cheap for 5 years...

He looks like a guy you can build an offense around. That's of course if we sign 2 interior OL, and we feel we can get a RT/Mauling G in the 2nd, who can start day 1.

Pugh is the future at LT. Find a stud RT, and that's a great start to a 10 year OL.

The question is whether we get that RT @ #12 (Lewan?) or @ #43 someone like Tiny Richardson (# 47 overall on Rang's board) or like Cyril Richardson (#42 on Rang's board and play him at RT).

I understand that situation is unlikely, and I doubt either Richardson would bet there are @ #43 but you never know.

Depending which of the OT's are taken. What if Lewan, Matthews and Robinson are all gone for example and Amaro and Ebron are both on the board?

I think it will be fluid.

gives me some hope for Robinson. Thomas did nothing his first two years in the League and became a beast in year three. Robinson's combine numbers were better than Thomas'.