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What happens if we draft a LT?

jlukes : 2/20/2014 11:39 am
I see a lot of talk about drafting a top Left Tackle at number 12, but what does that mean for our current roster?

Beatty is too soft to play RT and his contract is too big for us to cut him.

Do we keep him at LT, slide Pugh inside to Guard or Center and let the rookie play RT for a year or two?
I have no idea but  
robbieballs2003 : 2/20/2014 11:41 am : link
The situations usually work themselves out. I think you have to leave Pugh where he was and maybe the rookie plays G for a year before they make a decision on Beatty long term.

If anything, I think Pugh is our LT of the future.
This is why I'm not sold we would look for one.  
chrispisano66 : 2/20/2014 11:50 am : link
Beatty had a bad year, yes. But who on this roster outside of Rolle didn't?

Coughlin pretty much already told you Pugh will be on the outside left or right, but not on the interior. You can't cut, trade or bench Beatty realistically. Maybe you can move him to the right but I doubt that even happens.

I think Beatty is given another chance at LT where he has had some success and maybe they bring in a vet for some insurance/competition. The interior of the line needs to be solidified, I think it will be, and I think you'll see it will make a big difference for the tackles.
RE: This is why I'm not sold we would look for one.  
arcarsenal : 2/20/2014 11:53 am : link
In comment 11517463 chrispisano66 said:
Quote:
Beatty had a bad year, yes. But who on this roster outside of Rolle didn't?


Joseph, Hill, Beason, Amukamara, Pugh, McBride, Tuck, Jenkins... ?

As for the LT spot.. it'll work itself out. If the Giants really like Lewan they won't skip on him because of Beatty. If last year was an aberration for Beatty and he gets back to playing solid ball, maybe someone slides inside. If he keeps struggling, maybe he gets cut in 2015.. maybe someone gets hurt. A bunch of different things could happen.
I said it on the other thread  
UConn4523 : 2/20/2014 11:54 am : link
but who wouldn't want this problem? I'm willing to bet we can find a home for the over abundance of OLineman, its a great problem that I'd love to have.
I was  
dorgan : 2/20/2014 11:54 am : link
never sold on Beatty. He's got talent, but appears to be lackadaisical at times.

It's a tough situation to be in with that big contract they gave him.

If they can't light a fire under his ass, there's no choice but to replace him.

arc..  
chrispisano66 : 2/20/2014 11:57 am : link
Obviously a couple other guys did, that wasn't my main point and was also more of a rhetorical question but good for you for cleaning up the mess. Gold button for you.
If it's possible  
pjcas18 : 2/20/2014 11:57 am : link
the best solution for the Giants is to fix Beatty and Baas (at least for one more year) and fill other holes this year.

If it's not possible the tackle and center positions have to be addressed this year. In FA or the draft. Obvious?

Reese has his work cut out for him this offseason.
It's tough bc Beatty's not guard material  
mfsd : 2/20/2014 12:01 pm : link
his strength is his athleticism, not his power. A guard needs to stand his ground against some of the monster DTs we face coming hard straight ahead (we also need a center not named Baas for that task)

If there's a stud LT available, the whole BPA vs need question really gets put to the test

That's a reason why I don't want Lewan.  
yatqb : 2/20/2014 12:04 pm : link
He can't move inside for a year. Beatty's got to be one of our starting tackles given his contract, and it would be a waste of talent to move Pugh inside (although I think he'd make a dynamite OG).
I think Beatty gets another chance...  
rptl530 : 2/20/2014 12:04 pm : link
the Giants don't really have a lot of choice given the contract. They can still go out a sign a vet OT (a la Locklear) if Beatty doesn't pick it up or as insurance against that, but I think the main focus of the OL will be the interior in both FA and the draft.

Round one will be used on a CB or a WR, imo.
Beatty gets to compete for LT.  
Damon : 2/20/2014 12:08 pm : link
This guy is starting the season on PUP... 14 is probably a flush it year. Then he becomes an expensive 3rd T. Probably a cap casualty in 15.
Simple  
mrvax : 2/20/2014 12:11 pm : link
You have all your tackles compete for the LT slot in camp and pre-season. (Pugh was a LT all his college years.)

Then you select your RT. Then see who can play guard. If Beatty has to become an expensive backup, so be it. You play your best guys.
what dorgan said  
JonC : 2/20/2014 12:11 pm : link
and I believe they can look at cutting Beatty in '15 if it comes to that, as his contract becomes workable to do so. Make no mistake though, it's on Beatty to earn his keep.

If we draft on OT, let the three battle it out, the loser also gets a crack at OG. It's not a bad problem to have.
What is Beatty's prognosis on the broken leg?  
TruBlue56 : 2/20/2014 12:14 pm : link
Will he be ready for Training Camp?
I'm not a Beaty fan. I never was.  
Optimus-NY : 2/20/2014 12:14 pm : link
The guy is soft. Fuck him. Draft a Left Tackle and move on. Let Beatty compete/sing for his supper. The earliest they can get rid of him is next off-season as a post June 1st cut.
I'm not ready to give up on Beatty  
BeerFridge : 2/20/2014 12:15 pm : link
and the Giants pretty much can't. If the Giants draft an LT, they'll prob play whichever is better suited to RT there and move Pugh inside, or if that new guy can move in at Guard, then that might even be better if the Giants are planning on ditching Beatty when the cap hit allows.
It is bad when you look at the  
chrispisano66 : 2/20/2014 12:22 pm : link
overall allocation of resources.

Pugh was a premium pick and looks to be a keeper. Beatty was a premium pick, not a late round guy. He was then given big dollars. He hasn't exactly been a bust. He had a bad year in a season where the entire offense sucked and there were how many different o-line combinations?

The point is, this team has already invested ALOT in Beatty and Pugh and I think the Giants would like to see them as the starters in 14. That said, I do think they look for a veteran to push Beatty and put him on notice that 2013 can't happen again.

I would be looking at Dennard, Ebron, Evans or Mosley who could all start from day 1.

Not at #12. Do not see  
TMS : 2/20/2014 12:24 pm : link
us drafting a LT, after the big contract we gave Beatty, unless we have completely given up on him, which I doubt. The 12th pick is too high to be taking a position player who is not considered a starter. There will be other skill players available there (DB, WR, LB) . Unless the LT available is clearly the BPA .
If you draft a LT this year  
pjcas18 : 2/20/2014 12:26 pm : link
is it almost like saying this is a rebuilding year?

It will be hard to fill all the holes competitively on the team with Beatty as your backup tackle IMO.
Posted this on another thread...  
Reb8thVA : 2/20/2014 12:33 pm : link
If the Giants like an LT like Lewan or whoever, Beatty's contract is not an obstacle. First,whoever the pick is its a rookie contract so its not as expensive of a cap hit as many think. Second, you can cut Beatty in 2015or 2016 without a severe cap hit with the way his contract is structured. So say you draft Lewan, you have Beatty as a starter until you feel Lewan is ready. If Lewan is better than expected, he's your starter and you keep Beatty as your back up LT until its more prudent to release him.
The thing with Beatty is his skill set does not project  
jlukes : 2/20/2014 12:36 pm : link
to any other position along the OL.

Only saving grace is that McAdoo implements more a zone-concept running game like they had in Green Bay. That type of scheme is much more predicated on lineman that are more fleet of foot.
reb, agree in principle, but  
pjcas18 : 2/20/2014 12:37 pm : link
it's not just the cap hit, but it is also the resources expended plus the potential of a 1st round pick.

Instead of using a 1st round pick at CB or DE or WR, the team would be forced to use them back to back on tackles (which in an of itself isn't an issue, but having one on the roster for this year is a problem).

So sure, Beatty's contract on its own isn't a huge obstacle (though for 2014 it is), but it's bigger than that IMO.
Just like with Pugh  
Giants : 2/20/2014 12:40 pm : link
Giants draft a top LT for the long term.Pugh will remain at RT and the Giants have their bookends. I believe they get a good guard in FA. Beatty has always been lacking in upper body strength.That has been the knock on him.Now he will be coming back from a broken leg. Yes broken legs don't take that long to heal.I just see the Giants keeping him as a backup for this year. His contract is to big to cut. Next year meaning 2015 he takes a huge reduction in pay or he is gone.
ENOUGH ALREADY  
OC : 2/20/2014 12:42 pm : link
With this "Pugh inside" BS! Please.
Beatty played very well at RT during his brief stint there.  
old timer : 2/20/2014 12:46 pm : link
Move WB to RT and kick Pugh inside to OG.
Exactly!  
ZogZerg : 2/20/2014 12:49 pm : link
This is why the Giants aren't going to draft a LT.

Pugh and Beatty need to stay tackles.
there has been talk about Beatty sliding inside  
bc4life : 2/20/2014 12:52 pm : link
which I think is nothing more than talk - but, I wonder if the draft a blue chip OT where Beatty might fit on the interior?
Beatty inside would be a disaster  
jlukes : 2/20/2014 12:54 pm : link
.
A 'stand your ground'  
old man : 2/20/2014 12:57 pm : link
OG, athletic OC and blocking RB can cover WB weaknesses long enough for Eli to dump off quick passes or roll-right a little and stay in pocket to release quickly.
If the Giants are concerned about WB, then a ZMartin gives them more flexibility with dumpimg WB in '15 and pushing Martin out to LT, or moving JP to LT and getting a pure RT. The left side would then have youth on left side, but if not and WB corrects himself, them they still have 2 young OLs.
based on my comments, that is further support for fixing at least 2 parts of OL INTERIOR with FAs then gives the Giants some draft flexibilty.
That extra reported 6M of cap will help a lot as well.
Beatty didn't forget how to play  
Jupiter : 2/20/2014 1:15 pm : link
Giants may have overpaid but he still ranked at least as adequate. Something else occurred last year, and the Giants probably know what that is. I wouldn't fret about who will play what spot until FA and the draft are over.
Beatty is a sunk cost  
Phil from WNY : 2/20/2014 1:22 pm : link
If there is value at LT when the 12th pick is up, I could see them going LT. Putting a roster together is about looking forward, not behind. If Beatty isn't the guy, then I'd expect them to cut bait at some point in the future. He didn't look like the guy in 2013.

The best case scenario would be to grab a talented tackle at 12 and let Beatty be your swing tackle for a season or two.
You can absolutely bench Beatty,  
barens : 2/20/2014 1:26 pm : link
I would think that with how rookies are paid, it's not out of the realm of possibility to draft a tackle. Then let them compete for the job.
Again, it's not just money..  
chrispisano66 : 2/20/2014 1:31 pm : link
Drafting another tackle at 12 means drafting a tackle in the top 20 2 years in a row while having another tackle on the roster making big/starter money. It's not at all an ideal way to shape a roster.

If Beatty played poorly enough to be considered a bust the discussion might be different, but there is a reason the Giants paid him after 2012. He's had his ups and downs but he has proven he can play well.
The Giants  
jtgiants : 2/20/2014 1:38 pm : link
are NOT benching Beatty. They believed in him last yr and called him an "ascending player". He was awful last yr but guys have bad yrs. They are not giving up on him. I think he will bounce back and be fine. I think the Giants believe that too. The bottom line is you dont make a big commitment to a guy like they did last year and give up on him the next season. Its not reality. To me, this is a relevant question, and a good one. If you see a guy at #12 along the o-line you like at tackle. How do you handle it? Fascinating question. It will be interesting to see what the Giants do. My guess is the tackle they drafted would slide to guard but I wouldnt be shocked if they moved Pugh to Center. Not likely but not inconceivable imo.
This is why Zack Martin makes more sense.  
section125 : 2/20/2014 1:40 pm : link
He can play LT, RT, OG. If Beatty is healthy, he plays guard. If Beatty is not he plays either RT or LT depending on Justin Pugh.If it is decided the value is not there on Martin at #12 CB or TE.
But If you can get a quality starting OLine at 12 I think you do it, especially one that can start in multiple positions
Section  
jtgiants : 2/20/2014 1:42 pm : link
I do agree w you that in the Giants situation. Zach Martin versatility makes more sense.
You don't move Pugh!  
Damon : 2/20/2014 1:42 pm : link
Let him continue to develop into a stud on the outside. As this league continues to emphasize getting to the QB on the edge, you need stud tackles. Yeah our weakness up the middle got Eli killed this year... But you don't move a guy that is on the rise... Let him lock down the right side... (or the left side) for the next 10 years. He's a technician. He's got great feet... You want him on the outside... He's a rookie who was our best lineman... Why tinker with the only thing we got right on the line???
This is why I think Zach Martin makes the most sense.....  
Simms11 : 2/20/2014 1:43 pm : link
he's a bonafide performer and most think he will be a pro-bowler at Guard. Leave the Tackles as they are, for now, put Martin at LG, and if Beatty falters or can't play, move Martin outside where he's played well.
RE: This is why Zack Martin makes more sense.  
Simms11 : 2/20/2014 1:44 pm : link
In comment 11517848 section125 said:
Quote:
He can play LT, RT, OG. If Beatty is healthy, he plays guard. If Beatty is not he plays either RT or LT depending on Justin Pugh.If it is decided the value is not there on Martin at #12 CB or TE.
But If you can get a quality starting OLine at 12 I think you do it, especially one that can start in multiple positions


Sorry dude. Just saw your post and agree. I posted this on the other thread before, as well.
I think Beatty's a lost cause  
TD : 2/20/2014 1:47 pm : link
If mgmt agrees, they should just consider his contract a sunk cost and look for the LT of this line now. When/if he returns to the field he can be insurance at LT until we can cut him with savings.
TD  
jtgiants : 2/20/2014 1:52 pm : link
The Giants gave him a huge contract a year ago. I highly doubt they consider him a "lost cause". He had a bad year it happens but if healthy he will be the starting LT and I think he will bounce back. Remember last offseason Reese and Mara called him an "ascending player" coming off an excellent yr. You dont make a guy a swing tackle who you gave a huge deal to a yr ago. You have to at least give him this season to bounce back. It is the reality.
I'd rather the Giants draft a monster OG  
Go Terps : 2/20/2014 1:55 pm : link
(the kid from Baylor comes to mind), and put him next to Beatty at left tackle. See how Beatty performs then.

Offensive guard is consistently one of the most underrated and underdrafted position. If the Giants like the kid from Baylor, do a slight trade down and draft him. Shit or draft him at 12.

I am hugely against moving Pugh from right tackle. Echoes of the mistake we made with Petitgout, who may have been an All-Pro if we hadn't moved him.

If the kid from Baylor doesn't have any skeletons we don't know about, I say draft him.
jt  
Phil from WNY : 2/20/2014 1:57 pm : link
The reality is that the Giants don't win if they can't protect Eli. If Beatty can't do it, they'll find someone else.
phil  
jtgiants : 2/20/2014 2:01 pm : link
They will not replace Beatty at LT this year. Again he played well 2 yrs ago and they gave him a huge deal LAST OFFSEASON. You dont give up on a guy after a bad year. It happens. Im telling you right now if healthy the Giants bank on him bouncing back and he is the starting LT. Like it or not.
Phil  
jtgiants : 2/20/2014 2:03 pm : link
Only mismanaged franchises and perrenial losers give a guy a huge commitment one year and cut him the next. Thats not the way the Giants operate. They may draft a lineman but if Beatty is healthy hes in the starting lineup
RE: This is why Zack Martin makes more sense.  
yatqb : 2/20/2014 2:03 pm : link
In comment 11517848 section125 said:
Quote:
He can play LT, RT, OG. If Beatty is healthy, he plays guard. If Beatty is not he plays either RT or LT depending on Justin Pugh.If it is decided the value is not there on Martin at #12 CB or TE.
But If you can get a quality starting OLine at 12 I think you do it, especially one that can start in multiple positions


I agree.

And Go Terps, I'm totally unimpressed with Richardson. He's just big. On our line, and next to Beatty, the two would get killed imho.
You would know better than me  
Go Terps : 2/20/2014 2:06 pm : link
I've watched very little college football recently. Only going by what I read and who knows how accurate that is.

The line needs a mauler. Has needed one for years.
jt  
Phil from WNY : 2/20/2014 2:12 pm : link
Unlike you, I tend not speak in absolutes unless I know something others don't know. Beatty has the potential to be a good LT but he played badly last year. The Giants have no reason to have faith in him at this point and a smart management doesn't bet the franchise QB on questionable players. They bet heavily on Snee and Baas last year and that made them look dumb.

If the Giants take a tackle in the first round, it doesn't mean that Beatty loses his job or gets cut. It only means that Beatty now has to compete for his job. That's what smart managers do.
Petitgout  
kmed : 2/20/2014 2:15 pm : link
was hurt all the time, that was his problem, not where he played, IMO.
For crying out loud, Beatty can be a Guard if we needed him to move.  
Jimmy Googs : 2/20/2014 2:18 pm : link
Is it ideal....no. But ideal would be that he plays better at LT and we don't have to move him at all.

He still has offensive line abilities, NFL experience, and its not like we have a whole bunch of better Guards sitting on the bench anyway.



PHIL  
jtgiants : 2/20/2014 2:19 pm : link
Im not the one who said Beatty would be a "swing tackle" that was you speaking in absolutes. Not me. Ofcourse Beatty would have to compete for the job but the reality is he would be a prohibitive favorite. Again, if hes healthy, it would be a real long shot imo to envision a scenario where he wasnt the starting LT. You simply cant have a 7 million dollar player on your team as a backup. I just dont think its feasible and I truly believe it wont happen. Im shocked so many people actually believe it might.
Phil  
jtgiants : 2/20/2014 2:24 pm : link
also remember the Giants made a huge commitment to this guy a year ago. Please give me one other example where the Giants made a huge commitment to a guy and then exiled him the next yr. In a slary cap era its not something that can be done. I really believe they like beatty and will give him at least another yr to show last season was a fluke. I believe the kid is a good player and believe he will bounce back for what its worth.
jt  
Phil from WNY : 2/20/2014 2:25 pm : link
You're too hung up on the money aspect. Expensive players get benched when they play poorly. Eli is a hell of a lot more valuable than Beatty and it's better to sit Beatty than get Eli killed. At the end of the day, it's about winning.

I called playing Beatty at swing tackle as the best case scenario assuming they go tackle in round one. It would mean that they have a superior player to Beatty on the roster. Nowhere did I write in absolutes.
jt  
Phil from WNY : 2/20/2014 2:27 pm : link
Your beliefs can't be imparted on the Giants. Neither of us know if they consider Beatty's contract a mistake or not.
Phil  
jtgiants : 2/20/2014 2:31 pm : link
Im sorry but in a salary cap era the money does play into it. If you are paying a guy 7 plus million and in the second yr of the contract you have given up on him. Thats unacceptable. People do have bad years. I think you are underestimating the faith the Giants have in there convictions. They gave him that deal for a reason. They believe in him and Im confident in saying one bad yr hasnt changed that belief. If it has we have a big problem. If they draft a tackle in round 1 my guess is he will start at guard and we will go from there. Again, Beatty played well enough 2 yrs ago, to earn that contract last year. I personally will be shocked if hes anything other than a starter on our line this yr weather we draft a tackle or not.
Phil  
jtgiants : 2/20/2014 2:32 pm : link
I never said my beliefs were imparted on the Giants. That would be a pretty dumb thing to say.
Phil  
jtgiants : 2/20/2014 2:34 pm : link
also you said the Giants have no reason to believe in beatty at this point. How do you know that. Maybe the huge contract they gave him a year ago is the faith they have in him. Again you dont give up on guys you made a major commitment too after one bad yr
RE: jt  
Klaatu : 2/20/2014 2:35 pm : link
In comment 11518015 Phil from WNY said:
Quote:
Your beliefs can't be imparted on the Giants. Neither of us know if they consider Beatty's contract a mistake or not.


Well, if they do, they'll never admit it.

Anyway...I don't expect the Giants to draft an OT at 12. CB, WR, or DE seem more likely to me.
jt  
Phil from WNY : 2/20/2014 2:36 pm : link
If you're convinced of your reasoning, then that's good enough for you. I made my case and nothing you wrote convinces me that I'm wrong.
Hell  
mrvax : 2/20/2014 2:37 pm : link
The Giants may very well buy a veteran LT backup to push Beatty (if he's healthy.) If they do, it's almost certain the Giants will not pick another tackle in the first round.

It's about the $. If they can get a decent free agent tackle they will. Think Locklear type.
phil  
jtgiants : 2/20/2014 2:38 pm : link
fair enough. Nothing you wrote has changed my mind either. So I guess well agree to disagree.
RE: You would know better than me  
yatqb : 2/20/2014 3:01 pm : link
In comment 11517940 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I've watched very little college football recently. Only going by what I read and who knows how accurate that is.

The line needs a mauler. Has needed one for years.


Now THAT I agree with. I have a feeling that we're gonna invest heavily in the OL this year both in FA and the draft. We'll have a young and high upside line by next year, if I'm right.
If you can play LT  
CALLAHANfrmCT : 2/20/2014 3:03 pm : link
What would keep you from playing RT? Pugh would be a better Guard than Tackle before the end of his career and as early as year two.
RE: If you can play LT  
Jay on the Island : 2/20/2014 3:17 pm : link
In comment 11518165 CALLAHANfrmCT said:
Quote:
What would keep you from playing RT? Pugh would be a better Guard than Tackle before the end of his career and as early as year two.


Callahan what are you basing this assessment on? Pugh has little to no experience at guard and you are saying he is a better guard than tackle based on what? He was our best OL last year and you want to move him to another position.
Just because a player is a good OT  
Jay on the Island : 2/20/2014 3:18 pm : link
does not mean they will be a good guard example David Diehl.
Well, Pugh has the mobility to be a dynamite OG, and if his strength  
yatqb : 2/20/2014 3:28 pm : link
increased (TC wanted him to put on 10-12 pounds this offseason) he's be at around 320 and likely have the strength to be excellent as a drive blocker, puller and pass protector. But do we want to "waste" him at an OG spot when he could be a top LT? I'd say no.

Beatty played RT for us in the past and could do that again this year if Pugh proves the better LT. He wouldn't be a world beater there, but he also wouldn't be as awful as he was last year at LT. He'd also be helped by the WCO and Eli's quicker, shorter drops next year.

So land someone who can play both OG or OT and also sign a C, or do the reverse, and go from there.
another LT would be a miracle!  
Victor in CT : 2/20/2014 3:30 pm : link
:-)

sadly he was a once in a lifetime player.
RE: another LT would be a miracle!  
yatqb : 2/20/2014 3:34 pm : link
In comment 11518256 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
:-)

sadly he was a once in a lifetime player.


Ah, don't make me sad, Victor. Memories, from the corner of my mind, wistful....blah, blah, blah! Argh!
RE: RE: another LT would be a miracle!  
Victor in CT : 2/20/2014 3:49 pm : link
In comment 11518263 yatqb said:
Quote:
In comment 11518256 Victor in CT said:


Quote:


:-)

sadly he was a once in a lifetime player.



Ah, don't make me sad, Victor. Memories, from the corner of my mind, wistful....blah, blah, blah! Argh!


I know. Those were the days
I believe Beatty can resurrect his career if...  
PeterS : 2/20/2014 3:49 pm : link
his leg mends. I was under the impression it was a pretty bad break and less than 2 months ago. Will he be able to play in 2014 is a big question. Eli's health is dependent on solid blind-side protection.
If we do, throw the remote  
HomerJones45 : 2/20/2014 4:13 pm : link
we need an interior lineman and not a tackle.

Beatty is currently the BBI whipping boy and so nothing he does can be right by definition.

The left tackle almost always faces the other team's best pass rusher. Well, if you are the LT and you can't take the defender outside because the qb can't step up and you can't take him inside and get the defender tangled up in traffic because the interior is the softest spot, and you can't get any help because there are 4 other spots along the line that need help, wtf are you supposed to do.
Gene, I'll save the remote,  
Big Blue '56 : 2/20/2014 5:19 pm : link
but agree..
Yeah the Giants (mainly Reese)  
LauderdaleMatty : 2/20/2014 5:25 pm : link
will stick by Beatty but he's easily the most over rated player on this site.

He played one full year and was slightly above average. No pro bowl and not to be confused with a franchise LT by any stretch. Reese had to sign him because he's misused or fucked up on too many linemen he's brought in.

People love Pugh and he may become a great player but his over achieving one year doesn't make him a sure bet. I certainly hope he's the real deal because the line is paper thin right now.

As for Beatty he's had the same issues as a fifth year pro as he had has a rookie. SOFT. The reach around sack is a classic. Not as bad as the butt fumble but an embarrassment for a fifth year pro. Can't handle the bull rush and not a a very good run blocker. Not very physical. Geez maybe they should restructure him now ala Baas.


Reese has done a total shit job with the OL over the last few years from restructures to draft picks(or lack of). Sorry if I don't trust him all that much if he has a conviction on Beatty.


Re: Zach Martin  
drkenneth : 2/20/2014 5:33 pm : link
Martin sounds like he will be a very nice player and versatile.

I'm not sure you pick a guy at #12 because he's versatile. You are looking for a best at position type of player. If you tell me Martin is a Pro-Bowl guard, great- I'm all for the pick.

But I'll be damned if I draft a guy just because he can play mutliple positions. This is a premium pick.
RE: Re: Zach Martin  
section125 : 2/20/2014 6:57 pm : link
In comment 11518568 drkenneth said:
Quote:
Martin sounds like he will be a very nice player and versatile.

I'm not sure you pick a guy at #12 because he's versatile. You are looking for a best at position type of player. If you tell me Martin is a Pro-Bowl guard, great- I'm all for the pick.

But I'll be damned if I draft a guy just because he can play mutliple positions. This is a premium pick.


No you draft a guy projected as a 10 year starter at OT or OG with All-Pro/ Pro Bowl potential. If Eli isn't standing doesn't matter who is WR (see 2013) or TE.
I'm no scout or anywhere close to it, but of all the tackles I saw in Bowl Season, he was the most steady and competent. My caveat was Martin played against Rutgers. But ND plays big time opponents all year long and he stood out.
section....  
drkenneth : 2/20/2014 6:59 pm : link
Isn't that what I just said?

If he's a Pro Bowler, fine. But you don't draft someone who's best attribute is versatility at #12.
LT  
stretch234 : 2/20/2014 7:26 pm : link
Are you really convinced that any T that is chosen at 12 is going to put in the starting lineup and be better than Beatty.

I don't think there is any one there outside of the top 2 who may be able to do that.

Lewan has questions, Martin has questions and Kouandjo has questions. IF that is the case, pass on all of them at 12
RE: section....  
section125 : 2/20/2014 7:31 pm : link
In comment 11518669 drkenneth said:
Quote:
Isn't that what I just said?

If he's a Pro Bowler, fine. But you don't draft someone who's best attribute is versatility at #12.


Dr K - how do you know who will be a Pro Bowler? So you can't say somebody isn't in the cards at #12 unless they will make the Pro Bowl. Last year the #5 OT picked, Justin Pugh, played better than every OT taken ahead of him. Two were taken top 5. Mayock says this guy is better than Pugh and can likely play OG and OT. I'd take a guy better than Pugh at 12 if he helps keep Eli on his feet.
Martin started at #45 projected as guard he is now ranked #19 as a tackle. He is moving up the charts. He seems to the one guy without holes except Matthews.
section....  
drkenneth : 2/20/2014 7:40 pm : link
Agreed. My point is people say we should take Martin based on the fact he can play multiple positions. That's all I am saying.
Martin is at 12 on CBS.  
yatqb : 2/20/2014 7:44 pm : link
That's one hugh climb.

I do like Kouandjio. I think he'd be a fine RT...not so sure about LT or OG.
RE: LT  
drkenneth : 2/20/2014 7:44 pm : link
In comment 11518704 stretch234 said:
Quote:
Are you really convinced that any T that is chosen at 12 is going to put in the starting lineup and be better than Beatty.

I don't think there is any one there outside of the top 2 who may be able to do that.

Lewan has questions, Martin has questions and Kouandjo has questions. IF that is the case, pass on all of them at 12


It wouldn't be hard to play better than Beatty did last year. I think Pugh is the future LT.
You lose my attention when you cite 'no pro bowls'  
Ten Ton Hammer : 2/20/2014 7:57 pm : link
As a measure of offensive lineman talent.

It's remarkably like clockwork how whenever player x has a bad year, he's irredeemable garbage as per this board's opinion.
RE: The Giants  
buljos : 2/20/2014 8:35 pm : link
In comment 11517842 jtgiants said:
Quote:
are NOT benching Beatty. They believed in him last yr and called him an "ascending player". He was awful last yr but guys have bad yrs. They are not giving up on him. I think he will bounce back and be fine. I think the Giants believe that too. The bottom line is you dont make a big commitment to a guy like they did last year and give up on him the next season. Its not reality. To me, this is a relevant question, and a good one. If you see a guy at #12 along the o-line you like at tackle. How do you handle it? Fascinating question. It will be interesting to see what the Giants do. My guess is the tackle they drafted would slide to guard but I wouldnt be shocked if they moved Pugh to Center. Not likely but not inconceivable imo.


Agreed. Trick question. You don't bench or move Beatty, and you keep Pugh where he is because he's performing RT at a level above anyone else on the roster, and getting better. There isn't a LT worth taking at 12th, because he'll be gone by 12th. The others are a reach at 12th. Trade down to get another day 1 pick, and grab Yankey, put him next to Beatty. He'll make Beatty better, and both will play lights out. With the other two first day picks grab either Su'a-Filo or Zack Martin, and either Weston Richburg or Marcus Martin. Done... put a bow on day 1. That's the Giants O-line for the next 10 years... Beatty-Yankey-Richburg-Su'aFilo-Pugh. Very good, and very CAP friendly.
Even on his best day  
djm : 2/20/2014 10:01 pm : link
Beatty can be improved upon. If a beast LT is there at 12 that the Giants love they would have to take him. Beatty isn't exactly Anthony Munoz back there, even on his best day. I do think Beatty has a better year in him coming in 2014 but he was hot garbage in 2013 and now he's hurt.

LT is a position that is in a state of crisis right now...at least somewhat. And as others have mentioned things have a tendency to iron themselves out even if there's a glut of talent at one position.

I'd rather have too many tackles than not enough.
DJM  
stretch234 : 2/20/2014 10:27 pm : link
There is no Anthony Munoz available at 12 either. The best of the best are almost always top picks inside of top 10. That is the whole point. All of these guys have major questions about being able to play LT in the NFL. Beatty had a bad year but had 2 good years before that
RE: DJM  
buljos : 2/20/2014 10:49 pm : link
In comment 11518907 stretch234 said:
Quote:
There is no Anthony Munoz available at 12 either. The best of the best are almost always top picks inside of top 10. That is the whole point. All of these guys have major questions about being able to play LT in the NFL. Beatty had a bad year but had 2 good years before that


Absolutely agree. Beatty's not going anywhere, and he's not being benched, and they're not moving him to RT where he'd be even worse. The tackles are set. There is no interior lineman of value at #12, so JR's either going CB like Justin Gilbert, or he's trading down. Nobody else is worth the #12 pick and the Giants have way too many other needs to waste a #12 when that #12 could generate an additional day 1 pick that'll still get him the interior linemen he needs. What Beatty needs is protection from one of the draft day 1 Guards like Yankey, Xu'a-Filo or Zack Martin, along with a world class pass protection RB like Carlos Hyde, and a bone crushing blocking TE like Troy Niklas. Beatty wasn't Beatty in 2013 because he was exposed when the Giants decided they could let a good blocking RB go and insert one who couldn't block, and let a really good blocking TE go and bring in one who couldn't block, and then the injury bug hit and Beatty's Guard was shuffled. Recipe for disaster. Forget drafting a LT... Beatty's our guy. Fix Blocking.
RE: Yeah the Giants (mainly Reese)  
Optimus-NY : 2/20/2014 10:56 pm : link
In comment 11518556 LauderdaleMatty said:
Quote:
will stick by Beatty but he's easily the most over rated player on this site.

He played one full year and was slightly above average. No pro bowl and not to be confused with a franchise LT by any stretch. Reese had to sign him because he's misused or fucked up on too many linemen he's brought in.

People love Pugh and he may become a great player but his over achieving one year doesn't make him a sure bet. I certainly hope he's the real deal because the line is paper thin right now.

As for Beatty he's had the same issues as a fifth year pro as he had has a rookie. SOFT. The reach around sack is a classic. Not as bad as the butt fumble but an embarrassment for a fifth year pro. Can't handle the bull rush and not a a very good run blocker. Not very physical. Geez maybe they should restructure him now ala Baas.


Reese has done a total shit job with the OL over the last few years from restructures to draft picks(or lack of). Sorry if I don't trust him all that much if he has a conviction on Beatty.




Fully agree. Beatty was a miss plain and simple. The fact that people want to perpetuate that mistake is even dumber. Some people here are clueless regarding Beatty. The guy is simply not that good. Take off your blue colored glasses.
RE: RE: Yeah the Giants (mainly Reese)  
Victor in CT : 2/21/2014 8:23 am : link
In comment 11518952 Optimus-NY said:
Quote:
In comment 11518556 LauderdaleMatty said:


Quote:


will stick by Beatty but he's easily the most over rated player on this site.

He played one full year and was slightly above average. No pro bowl and not to be confused with a franchise LT by any stretch. Reese had to sign him because he's misused or fucked up on too many linemen he's brought in.

People love Pugh and he may become a great player but his over achieving one year doesn't make him a sure bet. I certainly hope he's the real deal because the line is paper thin right now.

As for Beatty he's had the same issues as a fifth year pro as he had has a rookie. SOFT. The reach around sack is a classic. Not as bad as the butt fumble but an embarrassment for a fifth year pro. Can't handle the bull rush and not a a very good run blocker. Not very physical. Geez maybe they should restructure him now ala Baas.


Reese has done a total shit job with the OL over the last few years from restructures to draft picks(or lack of). Sorry if I don't trust him all that much if he has a conviction on Beatty.






Fully agree. Beatty was a miss plain and simple. The fact that people want to perpetuate that mistake is even dumber. Some people here are clueless regarding Beatty. The guy is simply not that good. Take off your blue colored glasses.


You guys are right
Giants  
fkap : 2/21/2014 8:55 am : link
have, for the past decade or so, liked versatility on the OL. they want T who can play G.

What we really need at this point is 2 G's and a C. Replacing Beatty is a luxury. We don't need a T who can fill in at G until Beatty washes out. We need a kickass G (2 of them would be nice).

You can roll the dice IF you can draft a T who can solidly fill out the G position, do. You'll be set at LT if Beatty pans out, have a backup plan if he doesn't. Do not, under any circumstances, make your first plan finding a replacement for Beatty without considering the G positions.

Priority one at this point, though, is to find 2 G's and a C. Worrying about Beatty, while it should be kept in mind, is secondary.

RE: Giants  
Blue Blood : 2/21/2014 8:57 am : link
In comment 11519151 fkap said:
Quote:
have, for the past decade or so, liked versatility on the OL. they want T who can play G.

What we really need at this point is 2 G's and a C. Replacing Beatty is a luxury. We don't need a T who can fill in at G until Beatty washes out. We need a kickass G (2 of them would be nice).

You can roll the dice IF you can draft a T who can solidly fill out the G position, do. You'll be set at LT if Beatty pans out, have a backup plan if he doesn't. Do not, under any circumstances, make your first plan finding a replacement for Beatty without considering the G positions.

Priority one at this point, though, is to find 2 G's and a C. Worrying about Beatty, while it should be kept in mind, is secondary.



Most accurate post on this thread..
so if a LT is sitting there at 12  
djm : 2/21/2014 3:46 pm : link
and the Giants feel this LT is a potential Blue Goose type, something Beatty will never be, the Giants shouldn't draft him?

Ill say it again. Beatty is an ok player when he's going well. He's a starter. HE's also replaceable and definitely a guy that can be improved upon AND he's HURT! AND he's coming off a terrible season.

If the LT is there and the Giants like him, they take him because it's logical. Beatty very well does bounce back...so what. He's never going to be a great LT but the guy at 12 very well will be.

If you signed 2 interior linemen in FA and then drafted a LT that can push Beatty and Pugh...shit...that's would be an overhaul. That's a good thing. Let the best men win the job and worry the roster fillers later.

I don't think some of you realize how good some of these tackle prospects really are. A guy that slips to 12 this season would very well be the 3rd overall pick last season. This draft is loaded with tackle talent. One of these guys could in fact be Anthony Munoz...or close to it. These are blue chip prospects. Beatty was never that and never will be that. He's solid when he wants to be. And he hasn't wanted it his entire career.

Draft players not positions.
Beatty equals Sean Locklear  
Phil from WNY : 2/21/2014 3:51 pm : link
The more time goes by the more Beatty is looking like a Sean Locklear level talent particularly his time in Seattle. He can play but he's nowhere near a blue goose
LT  
stretch234 : 2/21/2014 3:57 pm : link
There are no Blue Goose LT being picked at 12 this year and in actuality most draft years
Stretch  
Phil from WNY : 2/21/2014 4:21 pm : link
Doesn't matter what you think. It only matters how the Giants view the tackles.
What is very possible  
JonC : 2/21/2014 4:25 pm : link
is if an OL is their choice at #12, it figures to be a player they believe can be plugged in at OG, and then let the chips fall where they may.

Beatty, if healthy, will have his chance to secure his LT gig, Pugh the same at RT. NYG is going to work hard to secure at least one OG via UFA.

So, OT isn't out of the question at #12. But I do think Ealy or one of the CBs is more likely, should the value be there.
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