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Linval Joseph or Jon Beason - who is more valuable?

jbeintherockies : 2/22/2014 12:05 pm
In the Reese free agent thread posted on the forum, it was said that maybe Reese is letting Beason test the FA waters because the organization has targeted LJ as the #1 Giants' FA to re-sign. I believe strongly, as do many on BBI, that you need to control the LOS first and foremost.

However, we had LJ and no Beason, and the defense wasn't that good. Then we added Beason and there was a noticeable improvement in the defense's attitude and performance. Maybe it was the combination of the two that made the defense better? I don't know.

So which player should really be the #1 priority to re-sign in the off-season - LJ or Beason?
Beason is an impact player and team leader  
Bill in UT : 2/22/2014 12:11 pm : link
Joseph is not, IMO. Easy choice for me. Of course, you have to hope Beason stays healthy and you have a contract with some protection
It's impossible to answer this question  
kmed : 2/22/2014 12:12 pm : link
without knowing how much money/years it would take to sign these players.
Beason  
Larry in Pencilvania : 2/22/2014 12:15 pm : link
Reese can't draft a linebacker to save his ass
The question isn't who should be signed at any cost  
Bill in UT : 2/22/2014 12:17 pm : link
The question is just who is more important to the team
I put a similar thread out there a few weeks ago on this  
Jimmy Googs : 2/22/2014 12:23 pm : link
same topic, asking who should be #1 priority (Joseph, Beason, Tuck, other).

Obviously, financial impact weighs in, but putting it aside and looking at just the defensive impact. I think most on BBI came back with Joseph first, with Beason coming in second.





Jimmy, I'm hoping then that most of BBI  
Bill in UT : 2/22/2014 12:25 pm : link
has come to their senses since then :)
dont forget age factor  
alligatorpie : 2/22/2014 12:25 pm : link
linval is 3 years younger. possibly that translates into additional stability in the unit...less pressure on future drafts.

however, beason is a player as well.


keep em both.
Beason  
bubba0825 : 2/22/2014 12:25 pm : link
Only because we have nothing at linebacker. At DT we have a few guys who can play plus a propect in Hankins and a Kuhn who looked decent for a 7th round pick in his rookie year before he got hurt
Joseph  
MookGiants : 2/22/2014 12:27 pm : link
not even close.
Ask yourself who is more easily replaced?  
Klaatu : 2/22/2014 12:28 pm : link
To me, the answer is Joseph. There are better DT options in free agency and the draft then there are MIKE options.
The defense performance  
MookGiants : 2/22/2014 12:29 pm : link
under Beason had more to do with facing one backup QB after another.

Will Hill also helped defense tremendously
Agree with Mook  
GmanND : 2/22/2014 12:31 pm : link
both times. Give me Lin Jo. Get younger.
Joseph  
illmatic : 2/22/2014 12:31 pm : link
I've said this in another topic too. Younger, not an injury risk and a very good player at a very important position. Beason is becoming so overrated on here, it's incredible. Yes, Beason is good. Yes, we would all like to have him back. No, he wouldn't be one of the elite players on a great Giants defense. A leader, sure. But he wouldn't be leading that defense to a championship with his play. Guys like JPP and Amukamara would hopefully be doing that.
RE: The defense performance  
kmed : 2/22/2014 12:31 pm : link
In comment 11521396 MookGiants said:
Quote:
under Beason had more to do with facing one backup QB after another.

Will Hill also helped defense tremendously


My opinion as well. I do think Beason is important to this team. He brings a toughness and leadership to go along with his ability to tackle and make plays. I think Beason is important if we want a smashmouth, tough defense. I think Joseph is a guy that has a long successful career ahead of him. Tough to say who is more important to the 2014 team. If you twisted my arm, I'd say Joseph, but it's very close.
If money isn't a factor in this question,  
kmed : 2/22/2014 12:32 pm : link
then neither is age. If I'm understanding the question here, it's who is more important to the 2014 team.
RE: Jimmy, I'm hoping then that most of BBI  
Jimmy Googs : 2/22/2014 12:34 pm : link
In comment 11521389 Bill in UT said:
Quote:
has come to their senses since then :)


I actually go with Linval. And, trust me, I am a huge supporter of Beason and often ridicule the recent NY Giant theory that LBs are less important. But I just think LJ's age and durability give him the nod.

I do cringe at the thought of losing Beason though, so hopefully we can keep both.
Joseph  
MookGiants : 2/22/2014 12:35 pm : link
is massively underrated on BBI. Hes 25, so you would be paying for his prime years. People think because he was a 2nd rounder and basically redshirted his first year that Hankins will be the exact same. Thats foolish imo. Giants hit it big with Joseph, who knows what Hankins will be. If hes like Joseph then great we have two very good DTs.

Take Joseph off of the team and the DT position is a huge weakness.
Take Beason off this team  
kmed : 2/22/2014 12:38 pm : link
and we have a huge hole at MLB. Luckily we have time to find replacements for either or both. I think we need both back though, just can't pay them whatever it is they want. Make an offer that you think is fair and let the market shake out how it would.
But we have Kuhn...  
Jimmy Googs : 2/22/2014 12:38 pm : link



(sarcasm)
There's no doubt....it's BEASON  
Geeman : 2/22/2014 12:41 pm : link
He makes other players better, as was clearly seen how quickly everyone on the defense rallied around his play and leadership. He became the QB of the defense, so that in itself is invaluable. Add that with the Giants are terrible at drafting LBers over the last 10 years. He's an impact player.
Finally, the Giants have DTs that can hold down the middle in Hankins, Jenkins, Kuhn and Patterson.
I'd love both back but if it's a matter of priority? That's a no brainer for me...Beason.
RE: Beason  
OC : 2/22/2014 12:45 pm : link
In comment 11521370 Larry in Pencilvania said:
Quote:
Reese can't draft a linebacker to save his ass


If need be he couldn't help himself but to pick somebody good at 12. Mosely?
Thinking  
OC : 2/22/2014 12:51 pm : link
LJ will be harder to sign than Beason simply because he'll be getting more play, imo
TBH  
Modus Operandi : 2/22/2014 12:55 pm : link
And I know this will be an unpopular sentiment, but I don't think either player is a must sign. While Beason was certainly a steadying force in the back 7, he's way up there in age and not someone I'd want to tie up significant money in. If this we a team on the brink of a championship, I'd feel differently, I'm sure. With respect to LJ, he just isn't an impact player.

This is a team with a lot of holes and age. It's time we begin to use the draft and FA to get out of our current cap situation.
Let's re-sign  
Defenderdawg : 2/22/2014 1:18 pm : link
31 YOA Justin Tuck and pair him with 33 YOA Cullen Jenkins and pass up the opportunity to pair a couple of young DT's in Joseph and Hankins...even if it means a lesser DE on the left side.

Of course we then we will be drafting another DT in the second round in 2015...Joseph, Austin, Hankins,...., after all the Giants are so strong they can keep drafting DT's...

We aren't that close...and there not many areas of stength in this roster, DT could be one.
Should say areas of  
Defenderdawg : 2/22/2014 1:19 pm : link
On this roster
Joseph  
TMS : 2/22/2014 1:31 pm : link
is the more important signing. No contest. A solid, uninjured, young DT whos best days are still ahead of him.
TMS I couldn't disagree more  
moaltch : 2/22/2014 1:42 pm : link
While Linval is a solid player, he's not a game changer like Suh. He's more like a Cofield, where you'd love to keep him but only at the right price. He can be replaced by Big Hank, Jenkins, or another "big fat guy." If you lose Beason you cant replace him easily. You saw our run defense with him and without him. If Herzlich steps on that field as a linebacker next year, good luck to all of us.
That's easy  
Gman11 : 2/22/2014 1:48 pm : link
The defense sucked donkey balls until the Beason trade. That right there tells you who is more valuable.
RE: That's easy  
kmed : 2/22/2014 1:53 pm : link
In comment 11521543 Gman11 said:
Quote:
The defense sucked donkey balls until the Beason trade. That right there tells you who is more valuable.


Good pt, it probably had nothing to do with facing a plethora of dogshit qbs the rest of the season.
Beason was a big help but he has his limits  
Defenderdawg : 2/22/2014 1:54 pm : link
Pro Football Focus

Pete Damilatisū@PFF_Pete
I know most Giant fans will disagree, but Jon Beason is not a "must" sign.

Pete Damilatisū@PFF_Peteˇ
Leadership aside, Jon Beason's -16.0 coverage grade this season was the worst of any NFL LB. Giants should tread lightly.


Pete Damilatisū@PFF_Pete
Given his injury history and coverage issues, I'm not comfortable with the Giants offering Beason anything more than 2 yrs, $5M.

Pete Damilatisū@PFF_Peteˇ
Considering that the Vikings signed Erin Henderson last year for 2 yrs/$4M, hard to justify giving Beason much more
Joseph  
Giants2012 : 2/22/2014 2:10 pm : link
and it's not close IMO.
Beason  
Glover : 2/22/2014 2:11 pm : link
is better at his position, I think Joseph is the overrated player on BBI. I dont think Joseph is an impact player, he is good, but not great, and with the many holes the Giants have, I dont think they can or should outbid other teams for him. Breason at most a 3 year/10 mill contract. That is max what I see him worth, if he takes less years or $ to stay a Giant, I like it. The Giants have sucked at drafting LBs, they finally have a guy who made a difference as soon as he took the fiels last season, I think they have to consider him a priority.
Reese playing it smart? I guess, let him go and see what the market brings, and then hopefully he is willing to come back and see if the Giants will match it, the downside to that is that when a team really wants a player they dont want him to leave the building without signing a deal. Like someone else said, Beason IS looking to get back to his previous pay-grade, he may like the Giants and appreciate his spot in their defense, and he may feel gratitude for their belief in him, but that only goes so far.
Without Beason the Giants don't have a single LB  
Bill in UT : 2/22/2014 2:13 pm : link
who should be starting for an NFL team. If he goes, I don't know what Plan B is, but it isn't on the current roster. I'd hate to have to use #12 for Mosley and after that it's a crapshoot for who's available and whether we could get anyone. I haven't looked at the FAs available. Is there someone who can do the job cheaper than Beason?
Joseph/Beason  
stretch234 : 2/22/2014 2:35 pm : link
The NFL has drafted 42 DT in the 1st 2 rounds the last 6 years. That same time they have drafted 18 MLB/ILB. That tells you what is more important.

It is harder to replace young, healthy, productive DT.

Good MLB/ILB still need DT up front to occupy blockers.
stretch  
Bill in UT : 2/22/2014 2:42 pm : link
maybe that also tells you that there are a lot more good DTs around to be drafted every year
Joseph  
AcidTest : 2/22/2014 3:12 pm : link
and it isn't even close. But price dictates everything, and I think Joseph is gone.
RE: Joseph/Beason  
Glover : 2/22/2014 3:13 pm : link
In comment 11521613 stretch234 said:
Quote:
The NFL has drafted 42 DT in the 1st 2 rounds the last 6 years. That same time they have drafted 18 MLB/ILB. That tells you what is more important.

It is harder to replace young, healthy, productive DT.

Good MLB/ILB still need DT up front to occupy blockers.

I agree, but look at all of the great MLBs the Giants have passed on in the third to later rounds in the past few years (Lee, Bowman, Washington) and who the Giants have taken-Phillip Dillard?
I think the Giants can take a 2nd round DT, especially at #12 who has a very high chance of being better than LJ within 2 years. LJ is a good player, but I dont see him being so good that the Giants need to stress their already tight cap situation by giving him a contract that would be better than what he is likely to see on the market.
RE: RE: That's easy  
Gman11 : 2/22/2014 3:35 pm : link
In comment 11521552 kmed said:
Quote:
In comment 11521543 Gman11 said:


Quote:


The defense sucked donkey balls until the Beason trade. That right there tells you who is more valuable.



Good pt, it probably had nothing to do with facing a plethora of dogshit qbs the rest of the season.


Is that why the running backs suddenly couldn't run against this defense?
it's a lot easier  
MookGiants : 2/22/2014 3:42 pm : link
to defend the run when you're playing backup QBs who cant throw week in and week out
when the giants were 0-6  
Neverend : 2/22/2014 3:51 pm : link
they were top 10 in the nfl in terms of yards given per play and top 5 in yards per carry defense. I remember looking it up at the time and posting it on bbi. The only reason why they were towards the bottom in run defense as far as total yardage goes was because they defended more plays than any other defense in the league thru the first 6 weeks. The numbers over the last 10 games speak for themselves as do the stat line for some of the top runners they faced. Forget the stats, just look at the eye ball test compared to other teams in the league. The Giants are just so coordinated with their gap fits.

Lets not act like the giants wouldn't have stopped, for instance, Adrian Peterson if matt cassel or Christian ponder were starting in that minny game. That's just a silly way of thinking.
RE: The question isn't who should be signed at any cost  
Great White Ghost : 2/22/2014 4:44 pm : link
In comment 11521377 Bill in UT said:
Quote:
The question is just who is more important to the team
Bill I see that you think that is whatb the question is, but is it?Is that the question to the team? I think in the end the approach the must take is that tyhey simply CANNOT fix all their problems through draft anf FA. Many answers are going to HAVE to come form what's already on the roster. Finances dictate that.In the end I think they want both Joseph and Beason. I think they will make offers to both, probably already did to beason, who didn't bite. In the end they will see what their free agents draw as ofefrs from other teams, and if they feel they can match it( by that I mean can match it while getting value for what they spend on said player) then they will make a final counter offer. they FA in question, be it beason or Joseph, will either take the offer or not. I think this year, much more so than in past years, they will look to get value, spend wisely, and not swing for the fences. I think even on the players they DO spend big bucks on, they will do it because it represents fair market value, not desperation.

The fact they will not extend manning is telling. It says they are waiting to see if he can picj up his game or if he is indeed on the inevitable downside of his casreer. they are not hamstringing themselves for the future.

As far as TC goes the one year extension means nothing , nothing at all.If they bomb, they may replace him, if he does well, and still wants to coach, they may let him, with another one year extension.mayeb they season Mcadoo for a coupel of years. Maybe eli takes a shit, they let his conbtract run out,m then in 2 years, not one, TC retires and they hire a new head coach. The fact is I do not believe the Giants saw anyone out there as an improvement over TC. Next offseason may be different. Or not.I think they would like to leave the team in a position in a year or two to be able to hire a new long term coach, with out having all their cap money tied up, and an option for said new coach to go with a new QB if the current one doesnt improve.The giants looking to create this option doesnt mean TC is done, , like I said if he and manning pick it up then maybe they stick around.

I'd sday the gianst don't like change just for the sake of it, but I am hesitant to do so after listening to TC say, pointedly, that performance had nothing to do with Ope and ingram getting canned.Maybe they wanted change, maybe they didn't see eye to eye with what TC wants to do moving forward with Mcadoo.,maybe it wasn't performance as much as a sense of stagnation and a need for change and growth.

TC is very stubborn, but also very astute, and has shown the ability to adapt, albeit slowly, when his , or the teams survival depends on it.I see a pattern with him, he tries to force his way on the team, and when the collectively rebel, and present sound reasoning for said rebellion, he relents and changes his approach.This, more than anythign else is why he endures, that and his fundamentally sound regimen for preparation.He depends on that regimen, and doesn't change it lightly, but will change it once he sees it bears little or no fruit. Loyalty or not, he does shed ineffective coaches and has done so over the years. reluctantly, but still he does it.I think he knows their needs to be change. I think he also knows his QB is fundamentally a gunslinger who makes his money of the long ball. I expect them to pay greater attention to developing an effective short yardage game, moreso than in the past, but the home run strikes will still be deep balls down the field, because that's what they have at QB.I don't care what anyone says, I have never thought Eli is among the leagues best in a short yardage attack.lots osf short passes he flubs other W+QBs make. I expect that will get cleaned up, along with more passes to the RBs and TEs next year, and wouldnt suprise me to see him hit the FBs as well.I think we will go back to seeing manning hit 8-9 receivers a game like he did in the middle of his carreer. those numbers have dropped the last 2 years. as teasm have to cover more possible outlets it will open the long ball for Manning, I think that's what Mcadoo will do for us, Gilbride was committed to swinging for the fences. I think MCAdoo will look to take what is given, then expoloit when it is timely, which is what Manning is good at, once he gets into a game and starts detecting defensive tendencies.

The running game will be incorporated to the extent it is succesful.If it works they will lean on it, if it doesn't, McAdoo will find a way to nickel and dime the ball forward with a short passing game that accomplishes the same basic goal of keeping the chains moving while they try and develop the opportunities for the deep strikes. I thin
k that's why they hired him, 1)to be adaptive to the available means,and make best use of them and 2)to keep the chains moving.They expect him to be inventive in doing so. I thijk he is a good hire, and a few season s under TC, if he works out, then who knows where he goes from there.

Back to beason and Joseph, they will make fair market offers, and they will either take them or they won't. If they don't then the Giants will move on from there, but I don't sense the loss of any single player is going to cause them to panic.

This year, more than any other, is where we truly find out just how good a GM Reese really is.he has the opportunity to wreck the franchise, or right the ship.Obviously I'm rooting for him, But I have my reservations. Very interesting to see what we do this year.

P.S. don't be suprised to see Baas or Snee Back, if nothing more than depth.I say draft a LT, put Beatty at LG, Pugh stays at right, Boothe cordle at baas fight it out for center, and the pick up a FA for right guard, snee as backup at RG.they pick up a second FA as a backup, and draft another guy in later round, and keep brewer as the 10th man. I don't see them going with more than 4 new faces.

Snee thinks he can play.If he's right they'll let him come to camp.Beatty we are married to for now, and somewhere during the year he will work his way back into the lineup somwhere.They wont cut Basas tuill after june 1st, and by that time they will have seen what he looks like in OTAs. If he looks good he may stay with restructure . if not he goes after june 1st, but either way, they are going to get a look at him first and see where he is at.same thing goes for Snee I think, unless he is bullshitting about his recovery.

Bottom line is I think decisaions on Snee, Baas and Beatyy come later in the spring rather than earlier, and it's too early to tell. They may all be gone. They may all stay, if they can play.I thijmk the Giants are going to play this very smart and not cut off their noses to spite their face.

It's one thing to cut ties with a guy like Nicks who dogged it. It's another thing for guys who played hard till they got limited by injuries. Tye will assess where they are medically before making final decisions, it's just the smart thing to do.
sorry for my awful typing.  
Great White Ghost : 2/22/2014 4:51 pm : link
my bad
The problem with making a decision, especially on Snee, later  
Bill in UT : 2/22/2014 6:00 pm : link
rather than sooner is that you go into free agency with $7 less to spend.
jimmy googs - all  
jbeintherockies : 2/23/2014 10:56 am : link
looks like LJ wins again. It was difficult to count everyone's opinions, since some people refuse to directly answer the question. But, my tally is:
Beason = 6 votes
LJ = 9 votes


Some really good points presented on the thread. Regarding injury history of LJ, remember Canty had no injuries prior to signing with the Giants and then he started to get banged-up a little bit. So I don't take LJ's injury history into account too much; it's nice that he hasn't been injured though. If he had been injured, then I would use that against him.

I agree, I think Beason is the more impact player over LJ. I think LJ is a good DT, but he isn't on the level of Suh, like was already pointed out.

Over the last few years, we have experimented with average MLB play. I think the last year we kept the MLB's 'clean' and they still didn't produce. We certainly kept the MLB 'clean' early-on this year and it didn't matter. I stand by my opinion that, in a 4-3 defense, the MLB is just as important as the DE's. I've said this before on BBI, the 4-3 defense was designed by Tom Landry to allow (keep clean) Sam Huff to make plays (ie, tackle Jim Brown). You don't need say ... Patrick Willis to play MLB; but you need someone very capable.
JB - definitely a tough choice as I would say most posters  
Jimmy Googs : 2/23/2014 11:33 am : link
don't want either guy to walk.

One post above that I thought was very interesting was how many more DTs go earlier in the draft versus LBs. The large differential was fairly surprising and telling as to where the NFL puts value between the two spots.

I would think the saving grace if LJ walked would be that Hankins would have a great opportunity to step up which is why he is here.

On the hand, if Beason walked then we have to start again at MLB because no one we have can do an adequate job.

Who is more valuable?  
Doomster : 2/23/2014 11:40 am : link
Who is easier to replace?
Joseph  
chris r : 2/23/2014 11:49 am : link
younger, healthier.
Even if you have to pay Joseph more than Beason  
djm : 2/23/2014 11:50 am : link
And you undoubtably will, Joseph is the more important valuable player.
RE: Who is more valuable?  
Jimmy Googs : 2/23/2014 11:51 am : link
In comment 11522574 Doomster said:
Quote:
Who is easier to replace?


I typically would say MLB is easier to replace; however the Giants have shown to be inept at drafting/developing this talent.

LJ can be replaced, but really only for one year as jenkins/patterson would be basically done and we would only have Hankins (with only 1.5 years under his belt)
NFL drafting DT's  
jbeintherockies : 2/24/2014 11:19 am : link
Quote:
The NFL has drafted 42 DT in the 1st 2 rounds the last 6 years. That same time they have drafted 18 MLB/ILB. That tells you what is more important.

It is harder to replace young, healthy, productive DT.

I don't think the statistic of drafting 42 DT's in the 1st two rounds over the last 6 years necessarily tells us the position is more important. Playing in the trenches puts a lot of stress on the defensive linemen's bodies. So you have to replenish that position more often than LB. You also need a good rotation, which is not an issue at LB.
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