Like Pat Kirwan says repeatedly this time of year, the initial contract numbers that come out when a player first signs are almost always leaked by the agent.
These numbers usually are the full value of the contract if the the player plays out the entire length of the contract and hits all incentives.
All that really matters is signing bonus and first year salary, and those numbers usually don't come out until the ink is dry (and the full details are released by the time).
So, in summary, stop overreacting to the initial contract numbers that are released when a player signs. Just like the Brandon Myers contract last year, most of 2 year contracts will have an escalated 2nd year salary and/or roster bonus due this time next year that will force the team to release the player or restructure/extend the player
I just checked in after being off-line most of the day and holy crap this place has gone f'ing bananas. And I didn't even read the Linval thread yet.
I understand that reasonable people can disagree about the performance of a GM, but Jerry Reese has a long track record of not being an insane moron. Maybe he'll overpay sometimes like any GM, maybe he won't account for injury risk, maybe he'll miss on a few draft picks (again like any GM). But he's never gone full batshit crazy like the old-school Snyderskins. Take the moves in context of what we know about the guy.
Everyone reacted as if was insane that Stevie was getting 4 million for one year. Then it turns out it's only 3 million and the other million is in incentives
Again, you and many others are making definitive statements without knowing squat about how the contract has been or will be structured..None of us do
BB56 - you don't know the contract either and I haven't said anything about any of them. Is the deal good? Maybe. Is it still somewhat shocking to give an unknown guy that much money? Seems to me that it is. Why aren't you surprised? Oh right - b/c it's the Giants.
But let's grant that the masses come to vent. Does that preclude the masses to also coming to learn and read more reasoned and measured threads?
I didn't realize venting and learning were mutually exclusive concepts.
Apparently not most aka you... That contract of 2 year 8 mil could be if he meets all incentives or back loaded and could be he only gets like 2.5 mil this year or less. You don't know and yet you want to freak out because you don't understand how it works. Have fun with that, but don't be shocked when your 4.4 mil per year comments get slaughter with reality.
Yes the salary cap and contracts aren't complicated at all... please keep it going.
4M sounded worse.
How does the cap hit work? Is it 3 or 4M?
I work in IT for one of the biggest companies you can work for. Big deal unless you are a lawyer a NFL contract is extremely complicated. You don't think he showed up with a post-it note with 2 years for 8 mil on it do you?... Yes please sign here Jerry Reese and you should probably date it.
I don't think the Giants will pay you 10 million bucks, but couldn't hurt to ask
Just a thought.
The David Baas signing was nearly universally loved around here. It worked out to be kind of a mediocre deal. The Lavar Arrington signing was widely praised here, except by those of us who live in the DC area. That was a huge bust. You just don't know. I'm not going to the mat for Schofield, although I do have a good feeling about him for some reason.
All I'm saying is that given what I know about Schofield - which is not much - and given what I know about Reese - that he usually has a plan and rarely does anything crazy - I think that it's really misguided to immediately conclude that this is some kind of horrible deal.
More details actually tell you what he will be paid. Would you bitch if he only gets 1-2 mil when its all said and done?
Based on your reaction you were going to flip out no matter what just because you have never heard of him
...then you really have no one to blame but yourself. To lambaste jlukes for your lack of will power regarding these threads is a douche move, dude.
Condescension is a tonal quality. Tone is not transmitted through text. Any tone added to text is done so by the reader -- in this case, that would be you.
As I've also read the OP, I can assure you that, like it or not, I inferred no condescension in it.
It's a reach but teams take chances like this all the time. Some bold moves for young ascending talent work out. See Robert Harris and Ron stone from way back when while some don't. The giants feel that this pass rusher can play at a high level and the contract he signed would be a bargain if he reaches his potential. It he fails he fails. It's a risk but you act like teams don't do this. They do quite often. And sometimes it pays off significantly.
The majority of people here seem to like the Schwartz signing and really I doubt there's more than a handful of people who really know anything about the guy.
There are some things I know (or think I know) and I'll offer opinions on those. There are some things I don't know (and both those guys fall into that category) which I'll generally be cautiously optimistic about unless it seems like there's something crazy about them (perhaps Schofield falls into this category, but I'd bet the money isn't as bad as it sounds). Of course if all of BBI adopted that attitude it would be a much less interesting place.
I for one found the OP sensible, not condescending. Especially considering the tone of BBI around this time of year.
If he was guaranteed the full amount we've seen, I'd not only be surprised, I'd be really pissed about that allocation of our rather limited resources..
But he might only have 1-2 million of the 8+ guaranteed. If that be the case, would you still be surprised? Or, did you simply take the 8+ at face value and that's where your surprise emanated from?
I know very little about the contract construct in the NFL, what I have learned the last bunch of years, is to immediately reserve my "knee-jerk" until I see how the contract is formulated. If I had ANY reaction to this signing at first blush, it was, "no way he's getting or guaranteed the full 8."
What can I say? I've never heard of him and he has a limited NFL resume. Anything above vet minimum is a surprise to me. Make is 2 year for 8 million (that's Osi money) and now I"m really surprised.
Sorry if I came off harsh.
As for jlukes post, it was a good reminder with regards to this and upcoming signings.
Fyi, that isn't breaking news. As micko said... this player appears to be a vet minimum level player that got what's being reported as 8 mil over 2 yrs. That's very surprising bordering on shocking... simply what's being said.
Appreciate your efforts jlukes...
As always w/NFL contracts, pay no attention to total value. Guarantee usually contained in first two years. After that, we'll see.
https://twitter.com/adbrandt/status/443727949356072960 - ( New Window )
I do agree with the sentiment behind the OP, but Micko didn't "swing and miss." Too many people were being unjustly lumped in with the assholes on this thread. We have a right to have opinions as long as we acknowledge they might be subject to change.
You mean like this first post of yours?
Mike in Long Beach : 3/11/2014 4:58 pm : link : reply
There goes most of the newfound Snee capspace..
For this guy? wtf?
Again, he may have just 1-2 mil guaranteed and the other 6-7 not so. We don't know YET. Thus, it is not shocking or surprising until and when we see what the REAL story is..
There are more important things than hoarding cap space. At some point, you want your players to play well. And if they play well, they get paid. If your cheap players remain cheap, it usually means they suck.
Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion... And if you watched Schofield play and think he sucks or isn't a great fit for our defense, then voice your opinion and defend it... But most people criticizing this move have never seen the guy play a down, yet based on the very limited details surrounding the contract, somehow manage to opine this to be a terrible signing...
How is this not a knee-jerk reaction again?
Lukes, here is my only post on this thread:
Mike in Long Beach : 8:42 am : link : reply
There is a difference between a knee-jerk reaction and making an initial judgment. If one feels that Schofield (sp?) only deserved a max salary of 4 million over 2 years, even with incentives, then why can't they be upset at a contract worth twice that?
I do agree with the sentiment behind the OP, but Micko didn't "swing and miss." Too many people were being unjustly lumped in with the assholes on this thread. We have a right to have opinions as long as we acknowledge they might be subject to change.
If you want to talk about serious issues, how about the issues of somebody that would blatantly fabricate something for no reason whatsoever. Where in my post did I say anything you said is condescending. I actually agreed with the sentiment of your post. That is literally an insane interpretation. You made it up.
What type of contract is likely to have more guaranteed money. One that is reported as 4 million or one that is reported as 8 million. Now let's not play stupid here and say "WE DON'T KNOW!" Of course we don't. But simple (very simple) logic would tell you that, chances are, the larger contract is more likely (though not definitely going) to have more guaranteed money. So when Giants fans hear that an unknown player as a chance to make 8 million dollars over the next tw seasons, it's going to be a head-scratcher. Because this also means that there's a decent chance he'll count against the cap in a higher capacity than we'd like.
We'll find out exactly what the numbers are, and then of course we can reassess. But this is a football message board. People are going to react to contract reports that puzzle them. Now if you want to tell others not reaction, I suppose you can, but it's just not going to happen.
jlukes, I'd love to hear a response to what I said regarding your condescension comment when you get a chance.
The best thing I can come up with is that I agreed with Micko (who actually posted many posts on this thread), and since he happened to mention the word condescending, I must feel that you are as well.
Now I praised your initial post in my comment, so one would think you're smart enough to know I'm agreeing with Micko about his specific reaction and the fans' general right to react to Schofield signing and that I'm not making any comment about you (pretty easy deduction there). So again, I'm curious as to where on Earth you got me calling you condescending in a post where I never said the word and I even agreed with the sentiment behind your OP.
If we, in fact, don't know, as you rightly state, then it is not stupid to acknowledge that fact. It would actually be stupid to do otherwise until such time that we do know.
It's time to stop playing stupid and take off the blue-shaded glasses.
Now please tell me... does it not appear that we have given him a disproportionate contract compared to his previous earnings and, much more important, his previous production? If you don't think so, you're just being purposely dense.
If we gave C.C. Brown 4 years, 8 million and it was incentive-laden, would that be OK? You guys are trying to sound smarter than you are and it's not working out. Schofield could go ahead and pick up 100 tackles and 6 sacks next year and I'll of course be wrong, but that would only be with the benefit of hindsight. Given the current information we have, this is a puzzling contract. I, and anyone else who feels this way, is allowed to say so.
Of Peyton Hillis' 2-year, $1.8 million deal, the #giants only guaranteed him $100K. Obviously will have to earn his spot on roster.
My apologies for the mix up
Every contract is different. That Player X signed one deal has very little bearing on the details of Player Y's deal.
Which is why we wait and see what the details are until we make a judgement about whether or not we think they've overpaid.
If, for example, the contract includes a $5M roster bonus for March 1, 2015, then that $8M contract doesn't look so bad. If the contract has $6M guaranteed, then it does look bad.
Since we don't know which way it leans, it's stupid to get upset about it until we do know.
Saying "we don't know" isn't a position of waffling -- it's prudence and honest. Why? Because, at this point, we don't know.
...it could be, yes.
Because to earn that $8M he would have to hit production numbers he's unlikely to achieve so the money would probably not be at risk.
But, if he does hit those numbers, that means he would have overachieved as a player, meaning the Giants got more out of him than they expected -- which is what the fuck incentives are for in the first place -- to have some inflated measurement for a player to strive to in anticipation of extra compensation.
But Micko merely suggested he was surprised and it's a poor starting point considering what this player has done in the past. Considering how mediocre his NFL production has been, I don't think Schofield is going to need 100 tackles and 6 sacks to hit his incentive numbers. I think it's OK if a fan has fears about what is going to become of this contract considering the initial figures we've been presented.
He wasn't throwing a fit, he expressed concern.. and people jumped on him. That's why I chimed in.
Neither of these things are accurate.
That's why people were jumping on him.
Keep in mind that the Giants have a TON of experience in creatively structuring contracts after several years of being right at the cap, so they know how to do all the cap accounting tricks.
If the AGENT for Schofield is reporting 4 years $8M, I am almost certain that it is structured in a way that the cap hit for this is minimum salary for a vet this year, with team options to be exercised each year, much in the same way Myers' contract was structured.
Fyi, that isn't breaking news. As micko said... this player appears to be a vet minimum level player that got what's being reported as 8 mil over 2 yrs. That's very surprising bordering on shocking... simply what's being said.
No no no... I see where you are messing up. I think the few resides on your side of the simpletons that can't get the concept that that 2 years for 8 mil reported by the agent is going to be the maxed out dollars which is rarely achieved. Not to mention if he does earn the 8 mil it means he will be worth it. The actual contract is not known yet and could be substantially less, but with the chance to make a ton more due to his potential despite you and others not knowing him. Take for example the few that freaked over Brown's contract of 1 year 4 mil. What were people saying... It is for 1 year you can't prorate that out so it is 4 mil that is a huge over pay... Turns out it isn't even half that at 1.75 unless he plays up to the ability to earn the total 4 mil. That is a great contract for us.
As for a player that appears to be a vet minimum... Why because you have never heard of him? In limited time at OLB he had 4 sacks and then 4.5 sacks before last year. He hardly played last year behind a stacked line. He has shone pass rushing ability and I am sure this contract is probably incentive latent, but we don't know. Thus any judgement on your part or the part of others like you is just stupid and thus you are a... Hmmm your word... Simpleton.
Good day sir
that 2.75 number impacts who they can or can't sign, so 1.75 is almost as irrelevant as 4M