Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

Why do the Giants keep trying to make LBs of DEs?

Greg from LI : 3/12/2014 9:08 am
I made this comment in one of the Schofield threads, but I thought it was worth its own thread. Given the mixed at best track record they've had with these conversion projects, why are the Giants doing it again with Schofield? Why not just try to find better true linebackers?
because its fun  
Rjanyg : 3/12/2014 9:10 am : link
and some day it might work.
I know! I know!  
Big Blue '56 : 3/12/2014 9:10 am : link
They figure sooner or later they have to get it right?
The search for the next  
Beer Man : 3/12/2014 9:11 am : link
LT....
according to profootballreference  
GIANTSr01 : 3/12/2014 9:11 am : link
it's Arizona and Seattle who made a LB out of a DE. The Giants are just keeping him at the position.

And it's more a question of, why do the Giants keep trying to convert 3-4 OLB to 4-3 OLB?
Is it for sure that we're playing him at LB?  
Giantology : 3/12/2014 9:11 am : link
Or could we convert him to a DE?
good question  
Fish : 3/12/2014 9:11 am : link
Going to a well too many times. A well that does not work.
that too  
Greg from LI : 3/12/2014 9:12 am : link
Why do they prefer converting DEs and 3-4 LBs rather than finding better 4-3 LBs?
I think they're trying to keep an extra potential pass rusher on  
JonC : 3/12/2014 9:15 am : link
the edge. Not all traditional OLBs have the pass rush gene, and we've seen our recent OLBs do zero on the blitz to the point where PF rarely calls their number. Gives the opponent less to gameplan for, there's no pressure from that edge, etc.

If they have a DE with the rush gene and enough athleticism and not the size/strength to hold up full-time at DE, they move him back to the second level and try to limit his role. "Easier" when you've got a MIKE like Beason at that level, and very physical active safeties as they can cover up some deficiencies sideline to sideline.
and younger, bigger, tougher  
alligatorpie : 3/12/2014 9:17 am : link
4-3 DE's. 270+ lbs ones. that's the shiznit for this team.

so far, blitzing under Fewell, - not so much success -
Jon,  
Big Blue '56 : 3/12/2014 9:17 am : link
excellent post
but the Giants didnt convert him  
Blue Blood : 3/12/2014 9:18 am : link
and its not like college DE havent become LB's in the NFL before.. i mean really they arent re-inventing the wheel here...
They have NEVER been able to have success with these DE/OLB tweeners  
NYGmen58 : 3/12/2014 9:19 am : link
Cedric Scott, Reggie Torbor, Bryan Kehl, Clint Sintim, Adrian Tracy, etc.

The list goes on and on...
He's already a LB  
BillT : 3/12/2014 9:19 am : link
WTF!
Isn't it more about getting the edge rusher  
Mason : 3/12/2014 9:19 am : link
On the field with the best players. I recall Coughlin reasoning for the Kiwi move. So it is gameplanning. If your desire is constant pressure on the QB it makes sense.
Jon  
Greg from LI : 3/12/2014 9:19 am : link
That sounds ideal in theory, but repeated attempts at this have proven less than successful.
Scholfield  
stretch234 : 3/12/2014 9:19 am : link
I would not classify him as a project, since when he did receive playing time in AZ, he showed ability to get to the QB. With Sea he was not getting time behind Avril, Clemmons, Bennet and Irvin
I was under the impression  
kmed : 3/12/2014 9:21 am : link
that they are making a LB/DE a full time DE, no? Am I wrong?
I agree Greg. Makes no sense. Haven't they learned from  
Victor in CT : 3/12/2014 9:22 am : link
the Kiwi experiment and the Sintim draft?
here is a late round DE for y'all  
alligatorpie : 3/12/2014 9:25 am : link
Brent Urban 6'7" 295

(cbs.draftscout short exerpt)

STRENGTHS: Versatile. Signed with UVA to play end in former coach Al Groh's 3-4 scheme, but starred the past two seasons as a tackle in Mike London's preferred 4-3 alignment.
Good initial quickness off the snap, taking would-be blockers by surprise with his ability to extend his arms and rock opponents back onto their heels. Good core and lower body power for the bull rush to collapse the interior.

Uses his exceptionally long arms to keep would-be blockers off his chest and to bat down passes when he can't get to the quarterback. Good hustle to the sideline in pursuit, showing improved footwork and balance in 2013.

Good strength for the drag-down tackle. Can make the eye-popping one-armed tackle just by reaching out and grabbing ahold of ballcarriers as they attempt to slip by him.

WEAKNESSES: Not yet the sum of his parts. Comes off the ball high and can get knocked off-balance and to the ground. Inconsistent hand placement. Too often allows his hands to ride high on blockers (negating his own strength, exposing his middle and drawing occasional hands to the face flags), as well as ballcarriers (leading to some slipped tackles, face mask penalties).

Doesn't recognize cut blocks well enough yet and due to his length is especially susceptible to them. Struggles to locate the ball and get back involved once knocked to the turf. A bit stiff, struggling to change directions quickly.

COMPARES TO: Tony McDaniel, Seattle Seahawks -- With his frame and athletic upside, Urban is likely to earn comparisons to anyone from J.J. Watt to last year's wunderkind Margus Hunt. However, he's neither as dynamic as the 2012 Defensive MVP nor as raw as Cincinnati's rookie. Like McDaniel, Urban has good quickness, but it is his length and power that will earn him a starting projection from 3-4 and 4-3 teams, alike.

(obvously slower than any 'tweener, and pure on the line DLer, not in any way any kind of LB, as in this discussion, but as part of this particular DL group, help free up Hank, Jenk and JPP)
i don't understand it either  
GiantsFan84 : 3/12/2014 9:25 am : link
perhaps it was a signing strictly as a 3rd down pass rush specialist and the contract is not as bad as it seems?

but they need guys with range who have LINEBACKER instincts. that is the issue. those are developed after years and years. making a DE a 4-3 OLB just does not work.
kmed  
BillT : 3/12/2014 9:25 am : link
Where did you hear that? He was identified as a LB.
Because  
AcidTest : 3/12/2014 9:26 am : link
sometimes the hardest thing to do is admit you're wrong. Admitting a mistake is the first step in correcting a problem, but that step is insurmountable for many.

Jerry wants to prove that the definition of insanity really is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. He's not quite convinced yet that's true.
Victor,  
Big Blue '56 : 3/12/2014 9:27 am : link
this isn't a sudden conversion, is it? He's already been a LB for several years..He's got experience there unlike Sintim and Kiwi. Many players are converted from their original positions to play another..Wasn't Urlacher, for example, a safety when he came into the NFL? This guy already has years of LB experience, correct?
Harry Carson  
BigBlueBuff : 3/12/2014 9:29 am : link
for the win.
RE: They have NEVER been able to have success with these DE/OLB tweeners  
Giants2012 : 3/12/2014 9:31 am : link
In comment 11553248 NYGmen58 said:
Quote:
Cedric Scott, Reggie Torbor, Bryan Kehl, Clint Sintim, Adrian Tracy, etc.

The list goes on and on...


They won a Super Bowl with Torbor at LB and another with Kiwi at LB. It's not prolonged success but how many Chad Greenway's are in the NFL? Finding a guy who is stout against the run, will rush the QB and cover is almost impossible to find.
Love Brent Urban, but he'd be a DT on the Giants  
Greg from LI : 3/12/2014 9:32 am : link
He's a similar player to Chris Canty.
Let's consider 3 things that IMO make a world of difference  
Cam in MO : 3/12/2014 9:32 am : link
between this signing and failed 'tweeners' of the past:

Rolle, Hill, and Brown.

The 3 safety set (that has been used increasingly over the past few years when guys have been healthy) completely changes the LB role. I look for OB Wan to be rushing off the hip of an end in those sets this year and occasionally covering the flat. Supposedly although he doesn't have the experience, he's got the tools and hips to cover.

Surely he will also have his hand in the dirt on third and long.

Time will tell. I'm optimistic.

Cam  
Giants2012 : 3/12/2014 9:35 am : link
+1

The Giants love to drop a safety down in the box. It works real well if they're all healthy.
This whole conversation is a bit strange  
BillT : 3/12/2014 9:36 am : link
They signed Schofield, who has been a LB since he came into the league for two different teams. Now, all of a sudden he's a tweener, he's a DE, he's a 3-4 LB even though he last played in a 4-3, he's everything except what he's been since he began in the NFL. ???
RE: here is a late round DE for y'all  
AcidTest : 3/12/2014 9:36 am : link
In comment 11553279 alligatorpie said:
Quote:
Brent Urban 6'7" 295

(cbs.draftscout short exerpt)

STRENGTHS: Versatile. Signed with UVA to play end in former coach Al Groh's 3-4 scheme, but starred the past two seasons as a tackle in Mike London's preferred 4-3 alignment.
Good initial quickness off the snap, taking would-be blockers by surprise with his ability to extend his arms and rock opponents back onto their heels. Good core and lower body power for the bull rush to collapse the interior.

Uses his exceptionally long arms to keep would-be blockers off his chest and to bat down passes when he can't get to the quarterback. Good hustle to the sideline in pursuit, showing improved footwork and balance in 2013.

Good strength for the drag-down tackle. Can make the eye-popping one-armed tackle just by reaching out and grabbing ahold of ballcarriers as they attempt to slip by him.

WEAKNESSES: Not yet the sum of his parts. Comes off the ball high and can get knocked off-balance and to the ground. Inconsistent hand placement. Too often allows his hands to ride high on blockers (negating his own strength, exposing his middle and drawing occasional hands to the face flags), as well as ballcarriers (leading to some slipped tackles, face mask penalties).

Doesn't recognize cut blocks well enough yet and due to his length is especially susceptible to them. Struggles to locate the ball and get back involved once knocked to the turf. A bit stiff, struggling to change directions quickly.

COMPARES TO: Tony McDaniel, Seattle Seahawks -- With his frame and athletic upside, Urban is likely to earn comparisons to anyone from J.J. Watt to last year's wunderkind Margus Hunt. However, he's neither as dynamic as the 2012 Defensive MVP nor as raw as Cincinnati's rookie. Like McDaniel, Urban has good quickness, but it is his length and power that will earn him a starting projection from 3-4 and 4-3 teams, alike.

(obvously slower than any 'tweener, and pure on the line DLer, not in any way any kind of LB, as in this discussion, but as part of this particular DL group, help free up Hank, Jenk and JPP)


Good catch. Like Urban a lot from the fifth round on, and not just because I am a UVA alum. Seen him a lot. He has some real upside IMO.
I'd like to see his contract first,  
barens : 3/12/2014 9:37 am : link
and see how much they are paying him this year, and how much $ is guaranteed. Otherwise, I would tend to agree with you in regards to the type of linebackers they've gotten over the years.
Versatility  
ImaGiant86 : 3/12/2014 9:39 am : link
We like to run different front and having another player who can line up and rush from any spot and put his hand in the dirt as well is a nice thing to have. He looks to be way more athletic than Kiwanuka who saw success in that role.

Bruce Irvin in Seattle for an example of a DE/OLB tweener having success in a 43. Everyone thought Seattle was crazy for taking him where they did but they knew what they wanted to do on defense. Ill reserve judgement on this move,
greg and acid  
alligatorpie : 3/12/2014 9:45 am : link
at left DE- someone, not sure who, round 4 at the very earliest who can play the left DE spot with real overwhelming power:

as a balancing factor for the little speed rushers (moore and obrien shoefield) and as way to free up Hank and Jenk who would be wasted in pure plugger roles, not being as powerful as Joseph, and yet being more capable of play making behind the line - if we can get gaps open.

possibly a 3-4 DE
Once Hill  
pjcas18 : 3/12/2014 9:48 am : link
returned the Giants had three safeties healthy, and decided to leave Mundy on the bench.

I think a big part of that was Beason, but I don't think based on last year at least the Giants were running those 3-safety looks intentionally, I think they had Grant or a 3rd safety out there for lack of LB's.

Look it up Mundy barely played (other than week 17) once Beason and Hill were acclimated.
RE: because its fun  
dguy901 : 3/12/2014 9:54 am : link
In comment 11553216 Rjanyg said:
Quote:
and some day it might work.

How do you get "fun" out of signing a 2010 4th rd pick who played in 15 and only started 2 games with a total of 78 tackles and 1 sack last year? Price=$4M/yr.! He is too small for DE and it would be ludicrous to even consider it.
another possible sleeper - pure DE - UDFA  
alligatorpie : 3/12/2014 9:55 am : link
target might be Ben Gardner, out of Stanford. Stuck behind 2 known DE prospects, made plays during short time on field, 270+lbs.

possibly some scout sees an actual late draft round for the player.
RE: because its fun  
dguy901 : 3/12/2014 9:55 am : link
In comment 11553216 Rjanyg said:
Quote:
and some day it might work.

How do you get "fun" out of signing a 2010 4th rd pick who played in 15 and only started 2 games with a total of 78 tackles and 1 sack last year? Price=$4M/yr.! He is too small for DE and it would be ludicrous to even consider it.
RE: kmed  
kmed : 3/12/2014 9:57 am : link
In comment 11553282 BillT said:
Quote:
Where did you hear that? He was identified as a LB.


Bill, right after he was signed, I read that he's going to be playing as a DE with us. This isn't like the past when we tried making guys LB's. This is the other way around. He's an OLB who is best rushing the QB in a 3-4 or a 4-3 End.
redux  
JonC : 3/12/2014 10:01 am : link
Beason and the safeties contribute to protecting edge players, as all have the instincts and wheels to range the entire field.
RE: RE: because its fun  
Klaatu : 3/12/2014 10:04 am : link
In comment 11553372 dguy901 said:
Quote:
In comment 11553216 Rjanyg said:


Quote:


and some day it might work.


How do you get "fun" out of signing a 2010 4th rd pick who played in 15 and only started 2 games with a total of 78 tackles and 1 sack last year? Price=$4M/yr.! He is too small for DE and it would be ludicrous to even consider it.


He was a 4th round pick because he tore his ACL at the Senior Bowl. Obviously, he couldn't work out at the Combine or his Pro Day. Prior to that he was considered a late 1st, early 2nd round pick.

Also, you don't know what his actual price tag is because the terms of his contract haven't been released. You might want to check jlukes' thread on that very subject.

Finally, he's not a DE, never was since he entered the NFL at 6-3, 221 pounds (now 242), and I doubt the Giants are planning to move him there.
either way  
alligatorpie : 3/12/2014 10:08 am : link
you are looking at 'package sets and blitzes' for 3rd and long, vs 'line em up and beat them' unless we get a decent two way left DE.

and I'd like to think we can get a rush on 1st and ten as well, otherwise.....
Look...  
Dan in the Springs : 3/12/2014 10:13 am : link
This guy is not as big as you think. He's listed on NFL.com as being 6'3" 242 lbs. I know looking at him I don't see a DE body type, or even a tweener. I see a bigger OLB. The kind of guy who can be a force on the end. Clearly the Giants like having bigger OLB to win the battle near the line of scrimmage. This guy is a little smaller than Kiwi, but looks significantly quicker to me on tape. They probably know they need an OLB who can help set the edge and pursue in the run game, and see in Schofield exactly those traits.
it really never occurred to me until right now  
alligatorpie : 3/12/2014 10:17 am : link
-me being totally OL crazed this year-, that maybe kony ealy or someone...could change this team, a true DE to equal JPP.

not had a rush in a while, and the writing is there, reese likes players early..
As for his numbers...  
Klaatu : 3/12/2014 10:17 am : link
On Seattle he was behind Bruce Irvin and Malcolm Smith on their depth chart. On the Giants, where a marginal talent like Spencer Paysinger can rack up 74 tackles in a season, he won't be.
First of all, I like the signing,  
Simms11 : 3/12/2014 10:18 am : link
but not for what we gave him?! Makes no sense unless most of the money is backloaded with minimal guaranteed money. Secondly, I think he will be used to blitz as a LB and not a DE in the NASCAR. I still think he's too light to be a DE, even in the NASCAR package.
it also begs the question  
alligatorpie : 3/12/2014 10:23 am : link
on 3rd and long, 'how many -and which- LBs would you leave on the field, the SAM who can blitz, but not cover an extra WR, or the Will who does neither'...

Here's the comment that I was referring to about him at DE...  
kmed : 3/12/2014 10:26 am : link
Giants agreed to terms with DE/OLB O'Brien Schofield, formerly of the Seahawks, on a two-year, $8 million contract.
Schofield played outside linebacker in Arizona and Seattle during his first four seasons, but will likely play with his hand in the dirt in New York. He has 11.5 career sacks across 40 games. Schofield will also contribute on special teams.
Related: Seahawks
Source: Adam Schefter on Twitter
so, if in classic nickle the  
alligatorpie : 3/12/2014 10:28 am : link
(football.about.com quote)

''A nickel defense is when one of the three linebackers, usually the SAM linebacker, comes out of the game, and the defense employs a 5thdefensive back. The name nickel comes from the fact that you have 5 defensive backs in the game (2 safeties, 2 corners and the nickel back), instead of the standard 4. Boosting your pass defense is needed at particular times, and sometimes entire games.'' -

Which is sort of the same moment that you need the edge rushing specialist SAM (obrien schoefield)...and maybe why tight ends kill us, since who is left for that cover?
last year we defeated the run  
alligatorpie : 3/12/2014 10:31 am : link
and did not generate a rush with 4 DL. and had a crappy season.
It makes sense  
JoefromPa : 3/12/2014 10:43 am : link
for their 3-4 package
i am incorrect  
alligatorpie : 3/12/2014 10:46 am : link
actually, the defending the pass looks a bit weak and the run defense was not as great as i thought here is the pass #s:

Opponents

receptions 361 out of targets 601

yards 3787

av10.5 td21 long56 20 yards '+' 41

y/game 236.7 yacs1512

1stdns198
Didn't PF  
old man : 3/12/2014 10:54 am : link
use a modified 3-4 on occasion last year?
Maybe they are bulking Hank for a NT/DT role, Jenkins to DE, and OS as DE in a DWare role on 3-4; then will, to the pleasure of some BBIers, draft ADonald @ 12 for the other DT role in a 4-3 set for a run stop/pass rush DT combo.
Given the re-signings of Herz and Paysinger, and along w/JWilliams and Beason?/Porter? in a 4 LB set, the 4 LBs will have less territory to cover in a 3-4 re: pass coverage and more likely to stick closer to their man, especially if Trel can cheat down low.
hope not  
alligatorpie : 3/12/2014 12:23 pm : link
more likely a classic 4-3 with 4 / nickle or 4 / 3-safeties or 5/1 and 5/2 options but with a bit more flexibility on gaps and an addition at DE.

one problem last year was (IMO) jenk and hank could not be set free often enough from run duties inside (due to weak left DE and weak LB's or just as a matter of coach emphasis) to really flush the pocket.

(IMHO) hank and jenk are not nose types at all, but we could use to start breaking OLs down again.
We aren't giving a guy that much money  
kmed : 3/12/2014 12:25 pm : link
to be a situational guy that barely plays. At least that's not how I'm seeing it.
Greg  
Matt M. : 3/12/2014 12:27 pm : link
I agree. He may be listed as a LB, but he is essentially a stand up pass rusher only. He is not even a real DE as he is undersized there. I don't like this signing because he isn't really adding depth or insurance at DE and he isn't a true LB, nor does he have a lot of game snaps as a LB. That is the one questionable move from yesterday.
Schofield  
KWALL : 3/12/2014 12:33 pm : link
is all about adding an explosive edge rusher. There is a big need on the team for it.
Back to the Corner