I thought this had to do with a sexual assault case. From what I've been told, the bar fight thing wasn't a big deal. College kid gets in a fight at a bar...does that mean all of us are character risks?
isn't so much the fight but that there hasn't been a legal resolution yet. While I would think the possibility of jail time in this is remote, it's not a zero chance either. You have a couple players rated about the same, maybe you take the other guy.
I don't watch college football. I have a feeling though Lewan is going to be a problem for whatever team takes him. This, the sexual assault accusation of his "involvement", and his demeanor on the field when I watched him. He gets over aggressive and seems to come off like a problem maker. With that said it's just a guy feeling I have and I would use the pick elsewhere.
thought we could do better at #12. As others have said, this is a deep draft for OL.
As far as the character concerns, I never thought they were minor, but regardless, NFL teams are showing much less tolerance for character flaws, especially anything to do with violence. And a player who aspires to be a top ten pick better be squeaky clean in that regard.
I think with pending sexual assault charges it's an issue. In isolation this is a "boys will be boys" scenario think all agree.
Sexual assault charges? huh?
Quote:
Lewan, who used to live with Gibbons and is close to him, had been linked to the case through an online report claiming he made contact with the alleged victim while the case was being investigated. He maintains, though, he did not intimidate her.
He isn't accused of sexual assault, but intimidating in that case.
It's about not investing a premium pick in a question mark or gut with legal issues.
Sure the Giants employed Christian Peters, but they picked him as a FA at the minimum. This is about being smart with your resources.
Agreed. And Christian Peter was a long time ago. The league is much more image conscious now. This isn't just one incident, a "boys will be boys" bar fight. He's been accused of intimidation, and was flagged for deliberately grabbing the face mask of an MSU player IIRC. It's too much for him to be the #12. As to how far he falls, nobody knows. I don't think he'll fall out of the first round, but we shouldn't select him.
But you...as am I....are clueless of the stories concerning Lewan and his "mean streak" off the field. Until proven guilty or having something more than a gossip column talking about it...I would just study his game tape.
for the Giants to pick Ebron at 12, can you imagine Lewan coming off the bench this year as 3rd tackle/eligible receiver in goal line offense? Hillis & Connor in the backfield with TE (Donnell) & Cruz in bunch formation?
We should have no trouble scoring from 5-yards out.
Can anyone locate the original news report or source
for the story about Lewan threatening the alleged victim of the Wolverines kickers' sexual assault? The incident and response took place in 2009. I can only find secondhand reports and not the original material.
If you can find it, please link to it. Much appreciated.
Does anyone else find the twitter links totally redundant and serve only to identify a sourcealmost totally useless. OPs should just annotate via XYZS twitter. The 3rd link was most informative.
for the Giants to pick Ebron at 12, can you imagine Lewan coming off the bench this year as 3rd tackle/eligible receiver in goal line offense? Hillis & Connor in the backfield with TE (Donnell) & Cruz in bunch formation?
We should have no trouble scoring from 5-yards out.
I can't remember the Giants near the goal line so give me a minute.
has been known for awhile now. Without a prior record, i doubt he'll get much more than a fine & maybe short-term probation, if found guilty. He claims he was trying to break it up.
A fight doesn't bother me so much. The allegations that he threatened to rape a rape victim if she didn't recant her statement that his roommate did in fact rape her is far more worrisome to me.
His penalty might be a $500 fine, and thats IF found guilty. If that is worthy of knocking his draft grade....then I should be fired from my job for a speeding ticket.
If the Giants were deciding between Lewan and another player at #12, this might make their decision a bit easier. Personally, I don't think it's that much of a big deal. The NFL is definitely not made up of Boy Scouts.
After seeing Donald's game tape I am on his bandwagon anyway.
these are the issues surrounding the player. The league's teams spend a great deal of time at the combine trying to sort out the character of the squeaky clean players. These things matter.
I know they are separate issues, they are still issues.
"Shortly after the woman reported the rape, she began to receive threats from Gibbons roommate and fellow football player, Taylor Lewan (now an All-American), that he would rape her again if she pressed charges against Gibbons.
The threats were reported by two other football players to the Office of Student Affairs who reported them to the University police. The University police did a wellness check on the young woman[9] and met with Taylor Lewan. They warned Taylor Lewan not to threaten the woman again and that he might face criminal charges[10]. No criminal charges were ever filed by the campus police. "
I mention and a arraignment (fight) AND an ongoing investigation (witness intimidation). Separate issues, but both are going to raise questions about the player.
The whole intimidation story is not even in the clear. That is not what this story is about...
This is about a bar fight.
It doesn't matter. There are now too many "incidents." At some point, their cumulative weight becomes more important than any one "incident." And that's especially true for somebody aspiring to be a top ten pick. Some teams might conclude that a pattern for violence has been established.
Somebody will take him in the first round in all likelihood. Too much talent. But all of this isn't irrelevant.
I wouldn't have drafted him anyway at #12. The OT class is very deep, and I'd prefer Donald or Evans.
I think the front offices have already investigated him and this is not new news unless there is an expectation that he'll miss part of training camp or have to serve time which is probably unlikely. I think they all know he's not a choir boy.
If the Giants were to draft him I'd be fine with it. I don't know the man, it's not my place to judge him. But, it's not a non issue and it's certainly not "gossip".
I don't think it's a character issue as much as a temperment isssue.
Offensive linemen can't start fights just because somebody pulls their face mask and calls him a pussy. They have to control themselves until nobody's looking.
UM is getting raked over the coals about the alleged perp's expulsion. There was a student protest over the delay in the expulsion and the US Dept of Education is reviewing the expulsion. I agree that the timing of the expulsion is fishy.
about an ongoing investigation? Other than guys behind a computer writing about it on their blog?
And again...the bar fight is not even an incident to me. It's equivalent to a speeding ticket in my eyes. A big football player that is going to be paid millions to beat people up was fed up with a couple of drunk Ohio State fans that I would bet my bottom dollar were being on the disrespectful side and got in to a fight. Non issue. Come on.
If anything were to ever come of the rape case...you have to give it a second look. But until someone legit (nobody here) has information that can throw him in jail, it can't be a part of the grade. Plain and simple.
believe the rape case has been closed as the victim ended up dropping charges (someone correct me if I'm wrong).
That doesn't mean it's not an issue to look at when taking a guy at #12. It also doesn't mean you don't take him there at all, it's just something you look into and talk to him about in order to determine the type of person you think he is.
Sexual assault is a third rail, (rightly) one of the few offenses from which teams don't walk but run. He didn't do it and hasn't been accused of doing it, but his connection to it is such that it could cause a media blow-up that nobody wants. It will impact his draft stock, perhaps to a greater extent than will these charges (except if teams see a pattern of an inability to stay out of trouble).
NFL front offices are surely investigating Lewan's background very thoroughly right now, especially the rape intimidation part of his backstory. They will have far more information than us but they will also be somewhat uncertain about what really happened, and also about whether additional incidents exist which raise more concerns about Lewan's background.
The perception that Lewan may cause off-the-field probelms isn't dependent on him being "innocent before proven guilty". (It isn't the opposite "guilty before proven innocent" situation either.) It's a question of risk.
That will make him fall, even if there are questions about the seriousness or veracity of the charges against him.
But what has come of this in recent years? If I recall correctly...this story is 3-4 years old. Even if it were recent....NOTHING has come of it. Not even close.
The fact that the sexual assault chargers against the
that include the possibility of jail time. That is not a non issue, it's not a speeding ticket, and it's not gossip.
He's linked to witness intimidation, rightly or wrongly. There is a police report. That isn't gossip, it may be a false charge, but it isn't gossip either.
you're looking at this in the wrong way. There are many uncertainties in Lewan's future NFL performance. His pattern of behavior is raising the likelihood of future off-the-field problems which may decrease his performance. Ergo, his draft value falls. Again, it's not an "innocent until proven quilty" situation. The NFL draft isn't a court of law. It's more like the stock market.
I will likely have 2-4 guys graded higher than him available at 12. It's the principal that BBI often overreacts on initial thought. You see it every time something good or bad happens...every win or loss. Every signing or loss of a player. Why not be patient and try to acquire more information before making a concrete statement.
you might not. Is he such a can't miss prospect in the first round that there won't be other players graded near him on team's boards? That's all it takes to drop.
I was never arguing that this was a death sentence for the player. But it's not nothing. It's clearly not nothing.
I will likely have 2-4 guys graded higher than him available at 12. It's the principal that BBI often overreacts on initial thought. You see it every time something good or bad happens...every win or loss. Every signing or loss of a player. Why not be patient and try to acquire more information before making a concrete statement.
Yup.
RE: I don't think it's a character issue as much as a temperment isssue.
Offensive linemen can't start fights just because somebody pulls their face mask and calls him a pussy. They have to control themselves until nobody's looking.
Temperament might be the problem indeed.
Quote:
ESPNs cameras captured Lewan grabbing and twisting opposing defenders facemasks a few times during the game, leading to plenty of tough questions for the Wolverines captain on Monday.
Heres what Lewan had to say about everything on Monday, via ESPNs Chantel Jennings:
Its tough at times, definitely when youre in a huge rivalry game like Michigan-Michigan State, Lewan said. A couple of those face-mask deals were on accident. A couple of those were very blatant and I apologize for that.
Lewan plays dirty in the trenches. Oh man....Cross him off! NYG would be lucky to have some mean guys in there. Alan Faneca...Andrew Whitorth....Jake Long...some dirty guys. Would hate to have guys like that on this line.
Lewan plays dirty in the trenches. Oh man....Cross him off! NYG would be lucky to have some mean guys in there. Alan Faneca...Andrew Whitorth....Jake Long...some dirty guys. Would hate to have guys like that on this line.
Yeah wouldn't that be terrible?!! :-) THe Giants are in desperate need of some snarl up front. Schwartz is a start but it's not enough.
player evaluations.
What's your opinion of Zach Martin as our 1st pick?
You also said you had 2-4 players rated ahead of Lewan.
Is Martin one of those players?
How would you compare Martin to Lewan or to the other
most highly rated players?
I'm intrigued by Martin and the potential versatility he offers.
Thank you Sir!
player evaluations.
What's your opinion of Zach Martin as our 1st pick?
You also said you had 2-4 players rated ahead of Lewan.
Is Martin one of those players?
How would you compare Martin to Lewan or to the other
most highly rated players?
I'm intrigued by Martin and the potential versatility he offers.
Thank you Sir!
you're looking at this in the wrong way. There are many uncertainties in Lewan's future NFL performance. His pattern of behavior is raising the likelihood of future off-the-field problems which may decrease his performance. Ergo, his draft value falls. Again, it's not an "innocent until proven quilty" situation. The NFL draft isn't a court of law. It's more like the stock market.
I actually have more than that rated ahead of Lewan. But what I was saying...I expect when NYG is on the clock at 12, I'll have 2-3 guys still available that grade out higher.
My position by position analysis will be coming in April. And Martin I like...he is an 81 and Lewan is an 83 as of right now.
Two New York Jets players and a former teammate were arrested early yesterday after a brawl in a Long Island bar in which a man and a woman were punched and two police officers were injured by flying glass from the shattered window of their patrol car.
According to the police in Long Beach, most of the damage was done by John (Jumbo) Elliott, a left tackle who was once a contender for football's Hall of Fame
.
My fear is that some team ahead of us will now take Martin
Do you mean like Ray Lewis, the guy who got away with muder? 1st, Lewan is high profile and I am not giving him a free pass but, an emotionally charged situation and he adamantly denies the allegation. I am older and not a pussified youngster. Nobody needs to allow themselves to be insulted, assaulted or degraded! Screw any wuss who might disagree. I hope Lewan falls to the Gmen!!!
you're looking at this in the wrong way. There are many uncertainties in Lewan's future NFL performance. His pattern of behavior is raising the likelihood of future off-the-field problems which may decrease his performance. Ergo, his draft value falls. Again, it's not an "innocent until proven quilty" situation. The NFL draft isn't a court of law. It's more like the stock market.
Are you delirious, the charges filed are misdemeanors! And 3 months after the incident the attorneys smell money and publicity. Money and politics is all this is about, not guilt, innocense or right versus wrong. I am disgusted with the government and authorities. JMHO.
the teams aren't giving this serious thought are living in a fantasy world. This is a first round pick we're talking about here. You look at everything.
Is it that a 1st round pick might possibly do some time in jail over misdemeanor charges? It's possible, but how likely is it?
Or is it the culmination of "character" concerns including the witness intimidation accusation 4 years ago (for which no charges were filed), dirty play, bar fights etc. ?
I'm not too worried either way. Sure there's calculated risk involved - that's true with any player. I'd draft him. (Or I'd draft Donald)
as well as separate charges of assault and battery. Though it happened outside of a bar, it was not a bar fight. Also, he lied about it at the combine when he said the guy recanted his accusation. He wouldn't be being charged if that was the case, so the teams also have to look at the fact that he lied.
that he was answering questions about this situation AT THE COMBINE. And telling teams that he was "trying to break up a fight" and never hit anyone.
Whether that's true or not, and whether the kid has problems or not isn't what matters here.
What matters here is that every team that interviewed him at the combine already knew about this stuff and have probably already made their decisions about whether or not they think it's an issue, and whether to downgrade or remove him from their draft boards.
I'm guessing most teams will not do either. At least not before seeing how this plays out.
I would put Lewan's chances of doing 90 days in jail at LESS than 1%. I'm not gonna draft him because of that?
I don't think the jail time is the issue.If he got 90 days for illegal dumping, i don't think anyone would give a shit. he has red flags as far as character issues go. I'm sorry, but he does, it's simply as fcat. Right or wrong, guilty or innocent don't enter into it much. ASt this point it is perceived as a PATTERN OF BEHAVIOR on his part, and that is enough to make a lot of organizations shy away, or at least factor into their consideration. If they don't factor it in, frankly then they aren't doing their due dilligence. This isn't his first rodeo either as far as the law goes. The guy has issues.They will be considered by any team that looks ta him. Myself I think we should stay away.
RE: My fear is that some team ahead of us will now take Martin
In this uber deep draft I would be amazed if Martin goes in the top.11. Martin is tough versatile and a great technician, but he isnt the potential dominant force that Robinson or Matthews likely will be.
Thats not to say he wont be a very good player but with the talent in the top 10 that wont be near BPA.
Link - ( New Window )
Link - ( New Window )
I thought this had to do with a sexual assault case. From what I've been told, the bar fight thing wasn't a big deal. College kid gets in a fight at a bar...does that mean all of us are character risks?
Taylor Lewan was thought to be high on the Giants draft board, but I cant see how they risk touching him now.
Never wanted Lewan, I think you can get a good OT in RD2. Especially if you don't care if you get a RT or a LT, given Pugh's flexibility.
Giants have employed guys with problems before and they will again
As far as the character concerns, I never thought they were minor, but regardless, NFL teams are showing much less tolerance for character flaws, especially anything to do with violence. And a player who aspires to be a top ten pick better be squeaky clean in that regard.
Sexual assault charges? huh?
It's all coming together.
Quote:
I think with pending sexual assault charges it's an issue. In isolation this is a "boys will be boys" scenario think all agree.
Sexual assault charges? huh?
He isn't accused of sexual assault, but intimidating in that case.
link - ( New Window )
link - ( New Window )
Or we get him in the 3rd or 4th; then on May 12 he is cleared of all charges.
WooHoo!
Sure the Giants employed Christian Peters, but they picked him as a FA at the minimum. This is about being smart with your resources.
2nd round. He may fall further.
Sure the Giants employed Christian Peters, but they picked him as a FA at the minimum. This is about being smart with your resources.
Agreed. And Christian Peter was a long time ago. The league is much more image conscious now. This isn't just one incident, a "boys will be boys" bar fight. He's been accused of intimidation, and was flagged for deliberately grabbing the face mask of an MSU player IIRC. It's too much for him to be the #12. As to how far he falls, nobody knows. I don't think he'll fall out of the first round, but we shouldn't select him.
We should have no trouble scoring from 5-yards out.
If you can find it, please link to it. Much appreciated.
Giants have employed guys with problems before and they will again
Minor problems. Not..really something like this.
We should have no trouble scoring from 5-yards out.
I can't remember the Giants near the goal line so give me a minute.
A fight doesn't bother me so much. The allegations that he threatened to rape a rape victim if she didn't recant her statement that his roommate did in fact rape her is far more worrisome to me.
After seeing Donald's game tape I am on his bandwagon anyway.
This is about a bar fight.
I know they are separate issues, they are still issues.
The threats were reported by two other football players to the Office of Student Affairs who reported them to the University police. The University police did a wellness check on the young woman[9] and met with Taylor Lewan. They warned Taylor Lewan not to threaten the woman again and that he might face criminal charges[10]. No criminal charges were ever filed by the campus police. "
It's never just about game tape, ever.
I agree that the witness intimidation is a much bigger deal than a bar fight, so getting more information about that incident is important.
They actually kicked the alleged rapist out of school two years after the alleged incident, shortly after his athletic eligibility ran out.
This is about a bar fight.
It doesn't matter. There are now too many "incidents." At some point, their cumulative weight becomes more important than any one "incident." And that's especially true for somebody aspiring to be a top ten pick. Some teams might conclude that a pattern for violence has been established.
Somebody will take him in the first round in all likelihood. Too much talent. But all of this isn't irrelevant.
I wouldn't have drafted him anyway at #12. The OT class is very deep, and I'd prefer Donald or Evans.
^Occupation: The Ohio State Football^
And again...the bar fight is not even an incident to me. It's equivalent to a speeding ticket in my eyes. A big football player that is going to be paid millions to beat people up was fed up with a couple of drunk Ohio State fans that I would bet my bottom dollar were being on the disrespectful side and got in to a fight. Non issue. Come on.
If anything were to ever come of the rape case...you have to give it a second look. But until someone legit (nobody here) has information that can throw him in jail, it can't be a part of the grade. Plain and simple.
That doesn't mean it's not an issue to look at when taking a guy at #12. It also doesn't mean you don't take him there at all, it's just something you look into and talk to him about in order to determine the type of person you think he is.
The perception that Lewan may cause off-the-field probelms isn't dependent on him being "innocent before proven guilty". (It isn't the opposite "guilty before proven innocent" situation either.) It's a question of risk.
That will make him fall, even if there are questions about the seriousness or veracity of the charges against him.
And the sexual assault thing was ongoing last I heard, and Gibbons was kicked out of school.
And it's also possible that there will be time consuming civil suits against Lewan once he gets paid.
He's linked to witness intimidation, rightly or wrongly. There is a police report. That isn't gossip, it may be a false charge, but it isn't gossip either.
This kid had had trouble written all over him. That's why I never wanted him.
Agree to disagree.
I was never arguing that this was a death sentence for the player. But it's not nothing. It's clearly not nothing.
As well said as is possible (IMHO.
Yup.
Temperament might be the problem indeed.
Heres what Lewan had to say about everything on Monday, via ESPNs Chantel Jennings:
Its tough at times, definitely when youre in a huge rivalry game like Michigan-Michigan State, Lewan said. A couple of those face-mask deals were on accident. A couple of those were very blatant and I apologize for that.
Link - ( New Window )
You're confusing tough guys and hard nosed players with cheap shot tossers and instigators.
Yeah wouldn't that be terrible?!! :-) THe Giants are in desperate need of some snarl up front. Schwartz is a start but it's not enough.
What's your opinion of Zach Martin as our 1st pick?
You also said you had 2-4 players rated ahead of Lewan.
Is Martin one of those players?
How would you compare Martin to Lewan or to the other
most highly rated players?
I'm intrigued by Martin and the potential versatility he offers.
Thank you Sir!
What's your opinion of Zach Martin as our 1st pick?
You also said you had 2-4 players rated ahead of Lewan.
Is Martin one of those players?
How would you compare Martin to Lewan or to the other
most highly rated players?
I'm intrigued by Martin and the potential versatility he offers.
Thank you Sir!
This.
My position by position analysis will be coming in April. And Martin I like...he is an 81 and Lewan is an 83 as of right now.
According to the police in Long Beach, most of the damage was done by John (Jumbo) Elliott, a left tackle who was once a contender for football's Hall of Fame
.
I don't think anyone before the Giants will take Martin.
Show some pride.
In comment 11577298 cosmicj said:
In comment 11577243 Sneakers O'toole said:
Is it that a 1st round pick might possibly do some time in jail over misdemeanor charges? It's possible, but how likely is it?
Or is it the culmination of "character" concerns including the witness intimidation accusation 4 years ago (for which no charges were filed), dirty play, bar fights etc. ?
I'm not too worried either way. Sure there's calculated risk involved - that's true with any player. I'd draft him. (Or I'd draft Donald)
Whether that's true or not, and whether the kid has problems or not isn't what matters here.
What matters here is that every team that interviewed him at the combine already knew about this stuff and have probably already made their decisions about whether or not they think it's an issue, and whether to downgrade or remove him from their draft boards.
I'm guessing most teams will not do either. At least not before seeing how this plays out.
Sounds that way. (No disrespect Phil!)
In this uber deep draft I would be amazed if Martin goes in the top.11. Martin is tough versatile and a great technician, but he isnt the potential dominant force that Robinson or Matthews likely will be.
Thats not to say he wont be a very good player but with the talent in the top 10 that wont be near BPA.