This is from a Tony Pauline interview. Says teammates don't like him. No doubting his talent. Jerry Reese likes him, but not a Tom Coughlin type personality.
I'd pass on him as well. I live in the Mid Atlantic area, and have seen a lot of UNC games. Great talent as a receiver, but I question his blocking. And now a prima donna personality. He isn't a throw the remote type of pick, but I'd really like a "clean" player. That's why I'd pass on Lewan as well.
Anybody say he is a prima donna. These seems like one of the rumors that a team leaks hoping a play falls to them.
Most receiving TEs coming out of college aren't good blockers. Everything that I read has said he is a decent blocker that is willing to work at it. Shockey wasn't a good blocker coming out of college either and he turned into an absolute beast.
If Vernon Davis was worth the #6 pick and he was then Ebron is definitely worth the 12th pick. Vernon was more athletic coming out of college, but I don't think he had the hands, route running or football IQ that Ebron has.
Anybody say he is a prima donna. These seems like one of the rumors that a team leaks hoping a play falls to them.
Most receiving TEs coming out of college aren't good blockers. Everything that I read has said he is a decent blocker that is willing to work at it. Shockey wasn't a good blocker coming out of college either and he turned into an absolute beast.
If Vernon Davis was worth the #6 pick and he was then Ebron is definitely worth the 12th pick. Vernon was more athletic coming out of college, but I don't think he had the hands, route running or football IQ that Ebron has.
I hope you're right. As I said, he's not a throw the remote type pick. And he is only 21. There are no character flags. About six weeks to go.
given the need, the lack on interest in FA TEs and Ebron's talent. I'm not sure how much I like it, but if I had to bet on a guy at 12, it would be Ebron.
I can't see him going in the top 10. I think top 15 is pushing it for a guy who has questionable blocking and a questionable attitude according to reports. But maybe that's why the Giants haven't really gone after a TE in free agency. Maybe they really do love him and they know he'll be sitting there at 12.
Or maybe they like a handful of the TEs and don't mind grabbing one a round or two later.
He's not close to as fast as Davis IMO. Davis is a 4.4 guy - he's legit fast WR fast. Ebron is probably more like possession WR fast. Ebron is probably more fluid though.
They both bring a lot of weapons to the table-I personally think that both those options as well as some of the defensive possibilities are all excellent picks.
If all this ebron talk is in an attempt throw teams off their love for evans to prevent teams from leapfrogging the giants (philly?). It just doesnt make sense that they would choose a big target at TE with less measurables than a big target WR when there are more complete TEs later in the draft.
I mean thino about it: would you have drafted Plax or Shockey (prior to learning how to block) if u had to pick one? Plax dominated his side of the field and opened up Toomer's game. Shockey teams could scheme for.
we really don't know is what Eli prefers. Does he want a big WR outside like Evans...or the athletic TE like Ebron. What would help HIM out the most?
Is that type of personnel decision making left to a player?
Uhhhh, I think we DO. Plax had a far greater impact on the offense when both he and Shockey were here. Eli loves throwing the fade, outs, deep balls down the sidelines and skinny posts. Shockey was not seeing the ball nearly as much once plax got here. Look at the winning tds at the game in Philly and the super bowl... both little gestures to plax changing the route. He never had that with shockey.
Why would we compare two Giants to make a point about Â
What about Jimmy Graham vs Vincent Jackson? I think Graham clearly has more impact.
Check both their stats this past year and check their respective QBs. It's not as clear as you're trying to make it out to be. VJax is a friggin stud and more people would realize that if he had Drew Brees slinging it to him.
This really adds nothing to the Ebron discussion, I just think you saying Graham has more impact was off base.
So because many years ago in a different offense Eli Plax may have had more impact than Shockey means that Eli is more comfortable with a big time WR than a big time TE? I'm not sure that's a convincing argument.
I also think you have to factor in the fact that Randle is much better player and will likely in the future be a much better player than any TE on the Giants roster right now.
Nevertheless, I'm not sold on Evans or Ebron at 12.
he looks like one of those "go up and get it" kind of Tight ends. Wouldn't this benefit Eli more? Who does tend to throw inaccurate balls (more in the high range) to have a big bodied tight end in the middle of the field? For those that say you don't want Ebron, then who? Evans? linebacker? I understand you can draft a TE in the middle rounds but LOL isn't that supposed to be where Adrien Robinson is at right now? He did graduate from Cincinnati late or something and I remember correctly, had trouble adapting the Coughlin-Gilbride system right away. Even when he does see the field, he's off it right away. This whole TE project is annoying. What the hell do I know?
Plaxico was a thing of beauty. Sometimes he ran the wrong route and Eli took a few sacks but man that guy could just "go up and get it", just chuck it up there. Eli to Burress, just looked like two guys just playing ball in the backyard.
I have blinders, all I can see is OL,OL, OL. I think Lewan is the man,and he is the serendipity juxtaposition where BPA meets position of extreme need.
but I think he doesn't get by Detroit and/or Buffalo. Don't want Evans so if Lewan is gone , for me , it's Ebron or Donald but the fall off seems enormous.
. J.R. reportedly considered trading up to get Revis years ago. I hope he talks to Buffalo, but heck maybe the big tackle slips by and Gilbert AND Ebron go before him. Would be nice.
And a WR in the 2nd or 3rd. Ebron is considered the top TE by a wide margin. Meanwhile you can go and get a WR in the 2nd that would be a first rounder in most other years. The draft is stacked at WR this year and not so much at TE.
I think going and getting Ebron and Jordan Matthews, Davante Adams or Donte Moncrief is much better then getting Mike Evans & Jace Amaro or Austin Seferian-Jenkins.
We have absolutely nothing at TE. If you pass on Ebron there is no way to know if any of the next 2 or 3 TEs will be available when we pick. A lot better chance of a highly rated WR being there IMO.
There is a lot larger gap between Ebron & Amaro/ASJ then there is between Evans and the 3 WRs I named. I would be much more comfortable going into the season with Randle, Cruz & Jernigan as the top 3 WRs then I would be going into the season with Donnell and Robinson at TE.
Tackle after drafting Pugh and giving Beatty a pretty large contract. Yes he might miss the first couple games of the season, but you don't draft a guy for that reason. Just can't see the Giants giving up on Beatty so soon. When have we ever given up on a player 1 year after giving them a big contract? I can't think of any.
He might not be as fast at Davis, but his playing style is very similar. He is plenty fast enough to create mismatches against LBers and Safeties. Who wouldn't want a TE who could break off 40/50+ yard receptions? 71 yard catch and run TD - ( New Window )
Can develop to the guy we hope he can be? He has done absolutely nothing to show that. You can't go into the season on hopes. We know Cruz is great. Randle has shown a ton of potential and Jernigan started showing why we drafted him in the 3rd round. Robinson has shown absolutely nothing at all.
I like Evans also. I would not be mad if we drafted him at all. I just think TE is a far far bigger need then a WR. We have no idea what kind of TE our new OC wants. We could draft Ebron and go into the season with him as a pass catching TE who gets better at his blocking (Everything I read has said he is a decent blocker with the willingness to get better) and Donnell as the blocker. Similar to 2002 when we went into the season with Shockey and Dan Campbell or 2008 when we went into the season with Kevin Boss and Michael Matthews.
thinks Coughlin can mold and handle a Shockey type talent better then Fassel?
Doubt it... Shockey insults a legendary Giants coach, refuses rookie pranks and threatened teammate over it, gets stone faced drunk with Tara Reid, mouths off about coaching and drills and this is all during his first two seasons. Hell I would anticipate a scene like Hartman and Pyle. There was no saving Shockey. Lol the nut tried to attack his GM.
Seems like the Giants are flirting with both types of TE's these days...It started with Beckum and last year with Meyers...looking for that 'tweener TE/Pope getting canned...
Take Ebron. Beckum and Myers were both strictly receivers who were terrible at blocking. Ebron is a far better receiver then both of them who is a decent blocker with the size and strength to get much much better. We could finally get our receiving threat in the middle of the field that could become a good blocker. A lot of people on here want that very good receiver and blocker at TE. It is a hard thing to find and nowadays the NFL is moving away from that. Written and Gronkowski are the exceptions, but the upper echelon TEs are mostly receivers. Graham, Vernon Davis, Gates, Julius Thomas, Jordan Cameron.
His 40 time at the combine was 4.60. Anthony Barr's was 4.65. Clinton Dix, a safety was timed at 4.58. Ebron will have a successful career, but won't be a top nfl tight end. Even Aaron Donald a defensive tackle ran a 4.68. Ebron's receiving ability is good, but not great, especially considering that he doesn't like to block. I think Amaro will be a better te.
With the twelfth pick we want a gamebreaker. Ebron isn't that player.
He looks like a cocky arrogant dude, a little bit of a smart ass as well when it came to the answers he gave there. Personally I like guys like that but I can see why some guys will be turned off by things like that. I'm rooting for him to be the pick, after the idea of trading up for Watkins which is a personal fantasy of mine.
to build a strong foundation for an OL for 10 years in this draft. We need to make that happen. TE/WR can come later once your OL is established. Eli cannot complete passes from his back.
Big Rick in Fl, I agree with you that the choice comes down to the fact that this draft is deep at WR and similar players to Evans can be had in round 2. However, TE is not as deep and while I think Ebron is talented, I don't know that he is truly worth the 12th pick. But the inactivity in bringing in a TE for a visit let alone not signing anybody means either they like Ebron at 12 or they like Donnell, Robinson and/or Fells. I would guess they like Ebron.
His playing weight was 245lbs - he was 10 pounds lighter than Myers, who was also a 'willing' blocker that was not good at it. Ebron can't block
Go back and find Beckum's scouting reports even after hurting his knee as a senior - looks similar as Ebron. Lots of deep speed to stretch defense, great YAC player, great body control, etc..
Beckum had 2 tremendous years in college before getting hurt
Who had a pretty good 40, but has done absolutely nothing in the NFL. It just fit your argument so you used it and he is still slower. Here are the 40 times for some of the better LBs in the league. Even though the 40 doesn't really mean much. You can watch the guy and clearly see he has plenty of speed to be a mismatch with a LB.
Sean Lee - 4.71
Navarro Bowman 4.70
Kuechly 4.58
David Harris 4.59
Curtis Lofton 4.79
Paul Posluszny 4.70
Kiko Alonso 4.74
Vontaze Burfict 5.0
Chad Greenway 4.76
James Laurinaitis 4.76
for a one dimensional TE who is a suspect blocker, He is more of a WR, and this is a deep draft for those. Several of them are as better than him. But think McAdoo will have input on this pick if it is made. Might work out fine.
I have the feeling it will be OL or DL in first round Â
I have no dount he is a prima donna and has personal issu=es, but I dont think he is a slimebag so that's really not my issue with the guy.
As we get closer to the draft, I think more and more he is who we pick at 12. My issue isn't that we couldn't use him, or that we don't need him, it's that he isn't worth a #12 pick.20 maybe, at 12 we arent getting BPA.And we really could use him.I think he is who we wind up with, and he isn't a good blocker.He will probably be of use in NY but i doubt he stays past rookie contract, and I don't think he will be a game changer as much as an important cog in the bigger machine.I'm pretty sure we wind up with him, but I'd like to think we could do better at 12, but I don't think we will.
Eli tends to throw the ball high when going to the TE and Ebron will go and get it. Not many TE's can run after the catch like him. Most talking about speed forget that he will be coming at the defenders who then have to turn and run with him. He will open up the seam pass that Eli used to throw so well. Many TE's coming out of college are not great blockers anyway.
Ebron or Evans would give Eli the big target he likes.
TE's that are dynamic in the passing game and are a focal point of their team's offense aren't asked to block much in college.
It's really rare that at TE prospect that's a good recieving option is also known for his blocking.
As long as there is will and they have the physical tools, blocking can be taught. Shockey wasn't known as a blocker, but his blocking improved pretty quickly- he became one of the better blocking TE's in the league, paving the way for Tiki's best seasons as a rusher. Gonzales is another guy that worked on his blocking and after a few years became one of the best in the league.
I don't know 40 times, but this guy from the limited highlights I've seen reminds me a little of Gonzales.
That said, it's easy to look good on 5min highlight reels, and if what folks are saying about his hands (or lack of), I'd be worried about taking him at 12. Luckily it isn't my decision.
If they don't take him, I'd be very disappointed if they took a WR, tho. I don't think they're targeting a WR at all other than 'covering all the bases' in case someone slips. Randle will be opposite Cruz in most base sets and I'm confident he will be more than adequate. Judging by what the Giants have done via FA, I think they're comfortable with grabbing a WR later in what most consider a deep WR draft.
The glaring needs IMO are OL, DL, TE, and LB. I don't see them using two 1st rd picks in a row on OL, especially T; and they can get a very good starting G/C in rounds 2 or 3.
Unless someone slips, from what I understand there isn't a LB worthy of 12. Plus with bringing back Beason and their other FA signings, LB isn't as big of a need as DL and OL.
That pretty much leaves DL and TE at 12. My hunch is that they go for the 3 tech DT if he's there. If not, it'll be Ebron. I just don't see them taking another WR this early.
But I can't shake the feeling that there should be a more impactful player available at 12. So I guess I'd be happy if we took him but I doubt he'd be my top choice when we're on the clock.
I see your reasoning, I just don't like Evans a whole lot. He seems stiff and I wonder if he'll struggle to separate in the NFL. I also think the guys that look like they''ll be available in round 2 are as good as Evans.
but I also see him not engaging on his blocks, not competing full speed, not doing so until the whistle is blown, etc. A lot of partial efforts and that's something that tends to not change as a player hits the NFL and begins making millions.
Saw a lot of same things from Marvin Austin, and it seems a frequent gotcha from recent UNC talents for some reason.
me, it's everything put together that makes me want to pass on him at #12. I agree that his blocking isn't a major concern because as someone said, he wasn't really asked to do a lot of that in college. He is also only 21, and looks like he could add more mass. But I still think it should be better for a #12 pick.
His speed is good but not great. I don't see the Vernon Davis comparisons frankly. And he had too many drops as others have noted.
He also appears to be a bit of a prima donna. That doesn't make him a bad person necessarily, and again, he is only 21. It could just be immaturity that comes with being that young. But there are others in the draft that young about whom this is not being said.
I also don't want to draft a TE simply because we obviously have a "need." Draft the BPA. There are also plenty of other TEs later on, like Niklas, who is a much better blocker.
Right now, I'd draft Donald, but I don't think the Giants will. Absent that, probably Evans. But the Giants will probably draft Ebron, thinking it an example of need meeting value.
when they talk about Vernon Davis.. and thats speed.. the reality is that Davis has speed that is extremely RARE..
What people are ignoring with Ebron his the fact that you have to game plan for him which opens up the rest of the offense. Thats what people are talking about when they talk about Vernon Davis.. You have to account for an impact player on offense on EVERY play.. He is not an after thought of a TE..
Ebron also has a huge catching radius. He stands @ 6'4" but his wingspan would be someone around 6'6".. He has plenty enough speed to beat most LB's and is a size mismatch for DB's..
That being said.. Id rather have someone like Niklas or Friedorciwz
If they don't get Eli right, nothing else matters.
It's why they fired half of the coaches and hired three guys with QB coaching experience.
Eli isn't going to pick a draft pick but you had better believe what they think will help him the most will be a big factor on who they select.
Then our FO better go balls out to surround Eli with talent. If Eli has a bad year, I am not sure we extend him. If its really bad I can see us not bringing back TC and the staff since they are all on basically 1 year deal.
So they have to go all out in getting talent for Eli .
He's not close to as fast as Davis IMO. Davis is a 4.4 guy - he's legit fast WR fast. Ebron is probably more like possession WR fast. Ebron is probably more fluid though.
that's what you pay the offensive line for. Do I want Jason Witten blocking for me or catching my balls? I want him catching my balls.
We brought Shockey in and spent half of his time here trying to get him to block. Waste of time. Let the pass catching TE go catch TD's or play decoy and leave the blocking to the blocking TE you drafted in sixth.
Shockey and Witten both were above average blockers Â
but I also see him not engaging on his blocks, not competing full speed, not doing so until the whistle is blown, etc. A lot of partial efforts and that's something that tends to not change as a player hits the NFL and begins making millions.
Saw a lot of same things from Marvin Austin, and it seems a frequent gotcha from recent UNC talents for some reason.
I want players who desperately "want to".
Perhaps this is part of the reason BOTH Reese and Ross went to speak with him personally. The interest is potentially very high but to need to gauge his character/motivation level.
Guys with little question marks sometimes dont need the extra meet and greet as you likely already have the information needed for a proper eval
I think the guy the Giants want is Evans. I think the brass is using Ebron and Lewan as a smoke screen. Reese has always given Eli a go get it wideout and he will do it again with Evans.
I have blinders, all I can see is OL,OL, OL. I think Lewan is the man,and he is the serendipity juxtaposition where BPA meets position of extreme need.
but I think he doesn't get by Detroit and/or Buffalo. Don't want Evans so if Lewan is gone , for me , it's Ebron or Donald but the fall off seems enormous.
. J.R. reportedly considered trading up to get Revis years ago. I hope he talks to Buffalo, but heck maybe the big tackle slips by and Gilbert AND Ebron go before him. Would be nice.
I used to feel the same way but then we signed Schwartz and I realized we may have some starters already on the roster like Mosley.
I think for some of these college atheletes blocking Â
is after thought due to the fact that they are not getting paid in college. When you are handed certain responsibility's and getting paid to execute them that can change your mindset.
His playing weight was 245lbs - he was 10 pounds lighter than Myers, who was also a 'willing' blocker that was not good at it. Ebron can't block
Go back and find Beckum's scouting reports even after hurting his knee as a senior - looks similar as Ebron. Lots of deep speed to stretch defense, great YAC player, great body control, etc..
Beckum had 2 tremendous years in college before getting hurt
Comparing Ebron and Beckum? - I don't think so - they are two different animals. Beckum always folded up on contact - Ebron is a large bull and has much more athletic talent than Beckum could ever demonstrate
Ebron is a tremendous athlete - the issues with him are can he translate that into the NFL and can he become a more well rounded TE - some of his catches and his shear physicality are amazing
And a WR in the 2nd or 3rd. Ebron is considered the top TE by a wide margin. Meanwhile you can go and get a WR in the 2nd that would be a first rounder in most other years. The draft is stacked at WR this year and not so much at TE.
I think going and getting Ebron and Jordan Matthews, Davante Adams or Donte Moncrief is much better then getting Mike Evans & Jace Amaro or Austin Seferian-Jenkins.
We have absolutely nothing at TE. If you pass on Ebron there is no way to know if any of the next 2 or 3 TEs will be available when we pick. A lot better chance of a highly rated WR being there IMO.
There is a lot larger gap between Ebron & Amaro/ASJ then there is between Evans and the 3 WRs I named. I would be much more comfortable going into the season with Randle, Cruz & Jernigan as the top 3 WRs then I would be going into the season with Donnell and Robinson at TE.
you sir are a crazy man... dont you realize that unless we pick an offensive lineman in round one that they entire season will be lost.. Eli will perish !!!!!!!!!!
/sarcasm off..
I would have no issue if the Giants chose to surround Eli with real weapons in rounds 1 and 2 and got OL in round 3 and 4.. we have so many areas.. we just need to hit on them and not miss..
His 40 time at the combine was 4.60. Anthony Barr's was 4.65. Clinton Dix, a safety was timed at 4.58. Ebron will have a successful career, but won't be a top nfl tight end. Even Aaron Donald a defensive tackle ran a 4.68. Ebron's receiving ability is good, but not great, especially considering that he doesn't like to block. I think Amaro will be a better te.
With the twelfth pick we want a gamebreaker. Ebron isn't that player.
And he would easily outrun most LB's in the league.. that 4.65 isnt the same when a LB has to run backwards turn and run and the TE just runs straight ahead.. and he doesnt have to outrun a safety.. his size creates a mismatch for most safeties.. AND if you have to commit a safety to him.. OH WELL there goes your double coverage on Cruz or Randle...
Ebron is a tremendous athlete - the issues with him are can he translate that into the NFL and can he become a more well rounded TE - some of his catches and his shear physicality are amazing
Ebron is a "tremendous athlete?" His measurables pale in comparison to Jared Cook's (a 3rd round pick).
Sure, he makes some amazing catches. But he also makes a lot of stupefying drops. Is he really a guy you want to depend on when the money's on the line?
Last year, even whey Eli had a little time in the pocket, he made throws to receivers who weren't really open. We need a TE who is a receiving threat and a #1 WR otherwise Cruz will be dbl teamed again
Not so with Cook and Ebron, where the speed and the explosion, the BJ and VJ, is weighted heavily towards Cook.
I never said that would make Cook the better pro, because, for one thing, Ebron is a much better route-runner than Cook was when he got drafted. However, if you're simply talking about who's the better athlete, the answer clearly is Cook.
or people who watch a lot of tape say regarding that? I could careless about the numbers, but what does the eye in the sky say when analyzed by scouts, GMs and draft experts?
I'll tell you this, though...at the Combine, Mayock & Co. seemed very surprised by Ebron's numbers. Said he looked faster on tape (said the same thing about Amaro, too, by the way). Mayock also said that he thought Ebron was a better athlete (although not nearly as fast) than Vernon Davis.
It was jersey joe who really wanted stephen hill to be Â
I'll tell you this, though...at the Combine, Mayock & Co. seemed very surprised by Ebron's numbers. Said he looked faster on tape (said the same thing about Amaro, too, by the way). Mayock also said that he thought Ebron was a better athlete (although not nearly as fast) than Vernon Davis.
That's what the stuff I am reading or seeing. Even the Russ Lande Jr. article says he is a poor mans Vernon Davis. So I am guessing they are going by film and not numbers. They all could be saying poor mans Jared Cook, lol. Cook has been productive, and if the opinion all round is that Ebron has good athletic ability based on the game film, then so be it. He does obviously flash a lot.
Obviously, he has something that got both Reese and Ross to go down to personally scout him. So that's saying a lot because normally you get your regional scouts opinion and watch film together to get a grade. The fact both guys wanted to get a better look tells me a lot.
I think Ebron could be very productive for us. Lewan would have been my first choice but now I doubt that happens.
RE: It was jersey joe who really wanted stephen hill to be Â
The only reason Ebron is even rated the best TE in this draft is because he has a talent that most TEs don't have. Acceleration and elusivness in the open field = YAC. This is what has everyone going crazy about him.
The problem is that he's only about average all the other "normal" TE attributes:
1. He's a below average blocker; if he ever gets caught up with a DE, that guy is making a bee-line straight to Eli.
2. Everyone wants to act like he's this spectacular receiver; well he has has great speed and quickness, but he's actually only an average pass-catcher. He lacks focus and drops more passes than any of the top 4 TEs in this draft.
3. The guy is definitely a prima donna, which is bad for a TE. From what I've seen he's not always invested in a game unless the ball is coming to him on a regular basis.
My overall assessment is that he's a fantasic open field weapon, but at only 6',4" 250 lbs with inconsistent focus and hands, he's not really a better endzone threat than most TEs. He's actually shorter and narrower than you would like a TE to be when you're trying to throw that short yardage TD into the endzone.
Honestly, I'd rather have Niklas only because he is a better endzone target; he's got better hands, is 2 inches bigger, has an extra 20 lbs, and a wider base he can use to box defenders out. Bye the way, Niklas is a much better blocker can get way more "yards after contact", and more importantly will play the same way whether he's getting the ball thrown to or not. Not saying that Niklas is a better player, just a better fit and value in Rd 2.
Also, Mike Evans is a better prospect overall. He's faster, taller, jumps higher, and has better hands, making him a much better endzone threat. He really has no cons as a WR, while Ebron has a few. There's only 3 WRs in this draft with Evans' type of size (Benjamin & Coleman) but neither is close to being as good.
I have no doubt that Ebron could be very productive for us, too. But so could Amaro, or Fiedorowicz, or Niklas, or even Marcel Jensen.
Is Ebron that good that he's worth the 12th pick in the draft, when those other kids aren't even worth 1st round consideration? Is he that much better than they are? That's where I have my doubts.
And, of course, much will depend on whomever else is still on the board when we pick. If Reese & Co feel that Ebron's their man, then so be it. But if he doesn't live up to his billing, then Epic Fail won't begin to describe it.
Tight ends aren't worth that high a pick unless you think Â
seems like he has tremendous speed after the catch and does a great job running with a low pad level instead of tall and upright like most tall receivers/TEs, which also allows him to break tackles.
Another concern I have with him that many people don't criticize him for is his vertical. Hes gone up and made some terrific catches but with some targets he couldn't came down with, I kinda noticed a glaring lack of elite vertical skills. Its not a flaw in his game by any means but its not elite either. IMO Tyler Eifert was better high pointing the football than he does, and hes certainly not Jimmy Graham in that department. I think Troy Nikklas does a better job extending his arms and plucking the ball out of the air than Ebron. Ebron kinda just cradles the ball into his body half the time, although hes obviously capable of the one handed stabs.
I'd pass on him as well. I live in the Mid Atlantic area, and have seen a lot of UNC games. Great talent as a receiver, but I question his blocking. And now a prima donna personality. He isn't a throw the remote type of pick, but I'd really like a "clean" player. That's why I'd pass on Lewan as well.
Sounds like another Shockey type...
Most receiving TEs coming out of college aren't good blockers. Everything that I read has said he is a decent blocker that is willing to work at it. Shockey wasn't a good blocker coming out of college either and he turned into an absolute beast.
If Vernon Davis was worth the #6 pick and he was then Ebron is definitely worth the 12th pick. Vernon was more athletic coming out of college, but I don't think he had the hands, route running or football IQ that Ebron has.
Most receiving TEs coming out of college aren't good blockers. Everything that I read has said he is a decent blocker that is willing to work at it. Shockey wasn't a good blocker coming out of college either and he turned into an absolute beast.
If Vernon Davis was worth the #6 pick and he was then Ebron is definitely worth the 12th pick. Vernon was more athletic coming out of college, but I don't think he had the hands, route running or football IQ that Ebron has.
I hope you're right. As I said, he's not a throw the remote type pick. And he is only 21. There are no character flags. About six weeks to go.
As for TC, he doesn't have a long time left as our HC. Reese and Ross should worry about hitting more in this draft since the last few have sucked.
F*ck Buffalo
As for TC, he doesn't have a long time left as our HC. Reese and Ross should worry about hitting more in this draft since the last few have sucked.
Take an 07 approach?
Or maybe they like a handful of the TEs and don't mind grabbing one a round or two later.
I mean thino about it: would you have drafted Plax or Shockey (prior to learning how to block) if u had to pick one? Plax dominated his side of the field and opened up Toomer's game. Shockey teams could scheme for.
Is that type of personnel decision making left to a player?
Quote:
we really don't know is what Eli prefers. Does he want a big WR outside like Evans...or the athletic TE like Ebron. What would help HIM out the most?
Is that type of personnel decision making left to a player?
Uhhhh, I think we DO. Plax had a far greater impact on the offense when both he and Shockey were here. Eli loves throwing the fade, outs, deep balls down the sidelines and skinny posts. Shockey was not seeing the ball nearly as much once plax got here. Look at the winning tds at the game in Philly and the super bowl... both little gestures to plax changing the route. He never had that with shockey.
What about Jimmy Graham vs Vincent Jackson? I think Graham clearly has more impact.
Are you really this much of a contrarian in real life or just fucking stupid?
Try arguing using reason instead of insults, if you're capable.
Please try and keep up... if youre capable.
I trust Reese and Co to find a TE later in the draft...
What about Jimmy Graham vs Vincent Jackson? I think Graham clearly has more impact.
Check both their stats this past year and check their respective QBs. It's not as clear as you're trying to make it out to be. VJax is a friggin stud and more people would realize that if he had Drew Brees slinging it to him.
This really adds nothing to the Ebron discussion, I just think you saying Graham has more impact was off base.
Thanks for the thread, though.
Gotta take extreme measures to get some players
THEN, you draft a traditional tight end.
Please try and keep up... if youre capable.
So because many years ago in a different offense Eli Plax may have had more impact than Shockey means that Eli is more comfortable with a big time WR than a big time TE? I'm not sure that's a convincing argument.
I also think you have to factor in the fact that Randle is much better player and will likely in the future be a much better player than any TE on the Giants roster right now.
Nevertheless, I'm not sold on Evans or Ebron at 12.
link - ( New Window )
Plaxico was a thing of beauty. Sometimes he ran the wrong route and Eli took a few sacks but man that guy could just "go up and get it", just chuck it up there. Eli to Burress, just looked like two guys just playing ball in the backyard.
If they don't get Eli right, nothing else matters.
It's why they fired half of the coaches and hired three guys with QB coaching experience.
Eli isn't going to pick a draft pick but you had better believe what they think will help him the most will be a big factor on who they select.
but I think he doesn't get by Detroit and/or Buffalo. Don't want Evans so if Lewan is gone , for me , it's Ebron or Donald but the fall off seems enormous.
. J.R. reportedly considered trading up to get Revis years ago. I hope he talks to Buffalo, but heck maybe the big tackle slips by and Gilbert AND Ebron go before him. Would be nice.
I think going and getting Ebron and Jordan Matthews, Davante Adams or Donte Moncrief is much better then getting Mike Evans & Jace Amaro or Austin Seferian-Jenkins.
We have absolutely nothing at TE. If you pass on Ebron there is no way to know if any of the next 2 or 3 TEs will be available when we pick. A lot better chance of a highly rated WR being there IMO.
There is a lot larger gap between Ebron & Amaro/ASJ then there is between Evans and the 3 WRs I named. I would be much more comfortable going into the season with Randle, Cruz & Jernigan as the top 3 WRs then I would be going into the season with Donnell and Robinson at TE.
But if you are drafting Ebron at 1 you are drafting him for his AA and hands...
The same thing could be said for taking an Evans at 1...
The Giants want blocking TE's...
Maybe we see AR mature to be the player we all hope he can be...
71 yard catch and run TD - ( New Window )
I like Evans also. I would not be mad if we drafted him at all. I just think TE is a far far bigger need then a WR. We have no idea what kind of TE our new OC wants. We could draft Ebron and go into the season with him as a pass catching TE who gets better at his blocking (Everything I read has said he is a decent blocker with the willingness to get better) and Donnell as the blocker. Similar to 2002 when we went into the season with Shockey and Dan Campbell or 2008 when we went into the season with Kevin Boss and Michael Matthews.
Doubt it... Shockey insults a legendary Giants coach, refuses rookie pranks and threatened teammate over it, gets stone faced drunk with Tara Reid, mouths off about coaching and drills and this is all during his first two seasons. Hell I would anticipate a scene like Hartman and Pyle. There was no saving Shockey. Lol the nut tried to attack his GM.
Seems like the Giants are flirting with both types of TE's these days...It started with Beckum and last year with Meyers...looking for that 'tweener TE/Pope getting canned...
Cant seem to make up their mind...
He will catch the back shoulder throws, the fades, the posts, and the jump balls.
Niklas or C.J. Fiedo.. in the 3rd/4th rounds provide much better value for the Giants who like the big TEs who can block.
Something like...
Evans
DT
G/C
C.J. Fiedo..
DE
RB
With the twelfth pick we want a gamebreaker. Ebron isn't that player.
Ebron is not part of that equation.
Taylor Lewan is.
ND picks to Giants 1 and 2, could be
BJ: Cook, 10'3". Ebron, 10'.
VJ: Cook, 41". Ebron, 32".
This is the "great athlete" that the Giants are going to spend the 12th pick of the draft on, and whose hands are suspect, too?
I just don't see it, but then, I didn't see David Wilson, either.
Evans. Hands, catching radius, winning jump balls.
Go back and find Beckum's scouting reports even after hurting his knee as a senior - looks similar as Ebron. Lots of deep speed to stretch defense, great YAC player, great body control, etc..
Beckum had 2 tremendous years in college before getting hurt
Sean Lee - 4.71
Navarro Bowman 4.70
Kuechly 4.58
David Harris 4.59
Curtis Lofton 4.79
Paul Posluszny 4.70
Kiko Alonso 4.74
Vontaze Burfict 5.0
Chad Greenway 4.76
James Laurinaitis 4.76
As we get closer to the draft, I think more and more he is who we pick at 12. My issue isn't that we couldn't use him, or that we don't need him, it's that he isn't worth a #12 pick.20 maybe, at 12 we arent getting BPA.And we really could use him.I think he is who we wind up with, and he isn't a good blocker.He will probably be of use in NY but i doubt he stays past rookie contract, and I don't think he will be a game changer as much as an important cog in the bigger machine.I'm pretty sure we wind up with him, but I'd like to think we could do better at 12, but I don't think we will.
If they don't get Eli right, nothing else matters.
It's why they fired half of the coaches and hired three guys with QB coaching experience.
Eli isn't going to pick a draft pick but you had better believe what they think will help him the most will be a big factor on who they select.
That said, do you think Eli wants Ebron?
Ebron or Evans would give Eli the big target he likes.
It's really rare that at TE prospect that's a good recieving option is also known for his blocking.
As long as there is will and they have the physical tools, blocking can be taught. Shockey wasn't known as a blocker, but his blocking improved pretty quickly- he became one of the better blocking TE's in the league, paving the way for Tiki's best seasons as a rusher. Gonzales is another guy that worked on his blocking and after a few years became one of the best in the league.
I don't know 40 times, but this guy from the limited highlights I've seen reminds me a little of Gonzales.
That said, it's easy to look good on 5min highlight reels, and if what folks are saying about his hands (or lack of), I'd be worried about taking him at 12. Luckily it isn't my decision.
If they don't take him, I'd be very disappointed if they took a WR, tho. I don't think they're targeting a WR at all other than 'covering all the bases' in case someone slips. Randle will be opposite Cruz in most base sets and I'm confident he will be more than adequate. Judging by what the Giants have done via FA, I think they're comfortable with grabbing a WR later in what most consider a deep WR draft.
The glaring needs IMO are OL, DL, TE, and LB. I don't see them using two 1st rd picks in a row on OL, especially T; and they can get a very good starting G/C in rounds 2 or 3.
Unless someone slips, from what I understand there isn't a LB worthy of 12. Plus with bringing back Beason and their other FA signings, LB isn't as big of a need as DL and OL.
That pretty much leaves DL and TE at 12. My hunch is that they go for the 3 tech DT if he's there. If not, it'll be Ebron. I just don't see them taking another WR this early.
IMO, of course.
Saw a lot of same things from Marvin Austin, and it seems a frequent gotcha from recent UNC talents for some reason.
I want players who desperately "want to".
His speed is good but not great. I don't see the Vernon Davis comparisons frankly. And he had too many drops as others have noted.
He also appears to be a bit of a prima donna. That doesn't make him a bad person necessarily, and again, he is only 21. It could just be immaturity that comes with being that young. But there are others in the draft that young about whom this is not being said.
I also don't want to draft a TE simply because we obviously have a "need." Draft the BPA. There are also plenty of other TEs later on, like Niklas, who is a much better blocker.
Right now, I'd draft Donald, but I don't think the Giants will. Absent that, probably Evans. But the Giants will probably draft Ebron, thinking it an example of need meeting value.
What people are ignoring with Ebron his the fact that you have to game plan for him which opens up the rest of the offense. Thats what people are talking about when they talk about Vernon Davis.. You have to account for an impact player on offense on EVERY play.. He is not an after thought of a TE..
Ebron also has a huge catching radius. He stands @ 6'4" but his wingspan would be someone around 6'6".. He has plenty enough speed to beat most LB's and is a size mismatch for DB's..
That being said.. Id rather have someone like Niklas or Friedorciwz
If they don't get Eli right, nothing else matters.
It's why they fired half of the coaches and hired three guys with QB coaching experience.
Eli isn't going to pick a draft pick but you had better believe what they think will help him the most will be a big factor on who they select.
Then our FO better go balls out to surround Eli with talent. If Eli has a bad year, I am not sure we extend him. If its really bad I can see us not bringing back TC and the staff since they are all on basically 1 year deal.
So they have to go all out in getting talent for Eli .
Ebron ran a 4.5 didn't he?
We brought Shockey in and spent half of his time here trying to get him to block. Waste of time. Let the pass catching TE go catch TD's or play decoy and leave the blocking to the blocking TE you drafted in sixth.
If not, why not just go 3 and 4 wides every snap?
Saw a lot of same things from Marvin Austin, and it seems a frequent gotcha from recent UNC talents for some reason.
I want players who desperately "want to".
Perhaps this is part of the reason BOTH Reese and Ross went to speak with him personally. The interest is potentially very high but to need to gauge his character/motivation level.
Guys with little question marks sometimes dont need the extra meet and greet as you likely already have the information needed for a proper eval
but I think he doesn't get by Detroit and/or Buffalo. Don't want Evans so if Lewan is gone , for me , it's Ebron or Donald but the fall off seems enormous.
. J.R. reportedly considered trading up to get Revis years ago. I hope he talks to Buffalo, but heck maybe the big tackle slips by and Gilbert AND Ebron go before him. Would be nice.
I used to feel the same way but then we signed Schwartz and I realized we may have some starters already on the roster like Mosley.
Go back and find Beckum's scouting reports even after hurting his knee as a senior - looks similar as Ebron. Lots of deep speed to stretch defense, great YAC player, great body control, etc..
Beckum had 2 tremendous years in college before getting hurt
Comparing Ebron and Beckum? - I don't think so - they are two different animals. Beckum always folded up on contact - Ebron is a large bull and has much more athletic talent than Beckum could ever demonstrate
Ebron is a tremendous athlete - the issues with him are can he translate that into the NFL and can he become a more well rounded TE - some of his catches and his shear physicality are amazing
If they don't get Eli right, nothing else matters.
It's why they fired half of the coaches and hired three guys with QB coaching experience.
Eli isn't going to pick a draft pick but you had better believe what they think will help him the most will be a big factor on who they select.
This is a big statement if you feel the way Eric does - the Giants will draft receiver or big receiving TE
I think going and getting Ebron and Jordan Matthews, Davante Adams or Donte Moncrief is much better then getting Mike Evans & Jace Amaro or Austin Seferian-Jenkins.
We have absolutely nothing at TE. If you pass on Ebron there is no way to know if any of the next 2 or 3 TEs will be available when we pick. A lot better chance of a highly rated WR being there IMO.
There is a lot larger gap between Ebron & Amaro/ASJ then there is between Evans and the 3 WRs I named. I would be much more comfortable going into the season with Randle, Cruz & Jernigan as the top 3 WRs then I would be going into the season with Donnell and Robinson at TE.
you sir are a crazy man... dont you realize that unless we pick an offensive lineman in round one that they entire season will be lost.. Eli will perish !!!!!!!!!!
/sarcasm off..
I would have no issue if the Giants chose to surround Eli with real weapons in rounds 1 and 2 and got OL in round 3 and 4.. we have so many areas.. we just need to hit on them and not miss..
With the twelfth pick we want a gamebreaker. Ebron isn't that player.
And he would easily outrun most LB's in the league.. that 4.65 isnt the same when a LB has to run backwards turn and run and the TE just runs straight ahead.. and he doesnt have to outrun a safety.. his size creates a mismatch for most safeties.. AND if you have to commit a safety to him.. OH WELL there goes your double coverage on Cruz or Randle...
Ebron is a "tremendous athlete?" His measurables pale in comparison to Jared Cook's (a 3rd round pick).
Sure, he makes some amazing catches. But he also makes a lot of stupefying drops. Is he really a guy you want to depend on when the money's on the line?
Is AJ Green not a tremendous athlete because Stephan Hill tested better than him at the combine?
I like this for a draft to build for the future, and there will still be camp cuts that will be cost effective and talented for a year or two.
12 WR MIKE EVANS TEXAS A&M
43 TE AUSTIN SEFERIAN-JENKINS WASHINGTON
74 OLB CHRISTIAN KIRKSEY IOWA
109 C MARCUS MARTIN USC
140 DE WILL CLARKE WVU
171 G MICHAEL SCHOFIELD MICHIGAN
Is AJ Green not a tremendous athlete because Stephan Hill tested better than him at the combine?
according to Klaatu's logic, Stephan Hill should have been the top pick in the draft.
I never said that would make Cook the better pro, because, for one thing, Ebron is a much better route-runner than Cook was when he got drafted. However, if you're simply talking about who's the better athlete, the answer clearly is Cook.
That's what the stuff I am reading or seeing. Even the Russ Lande Jr. article says he is a poor mans Vernon Davis. So I am guessing they are going by film and not numbers. They all could be saying poor mans Jared Cook, lol. Cook has been productive, and if the opinion all round is that Ebron has good athletic ability based on the game film, then so be it. He does obviously flash a lot.
Obviously, he has something that got both Reese and Ross to go down to personally scout him. So that's saying a lot because normally you get your regional scouts opinion and watch film together to get a grade. The fact both guys wanted to get a better look tells me a lot.
I think Ebron could be very productive for us. Lewan would have been my first choice but now I doubt that happens.
Uh not close on that one
The problem is that he's only about average all the other "normal" TE attributes:
1. He's a below average blocker; if he ever gets caught up with a DE, that guy is making a bee-line straight to Eli.
2. Everyone wants to act like he's this spectacular receiver; well he has has great speed and quickness, but he's actually only an average pass-catcher. He lacks focus and drops more passes than any of the top 4 TEs in this draft.
3. The guy is definitely a prima donna, which is bad for a TE. From what I've seen he's not always invested in a game unless the ball is coming to him on a regular basis.
My overall assessment is that he's a fantasic open field weapon, but at only 6',4" 250 lbs with inconsistent focus and hands, he's not really a better endzone threat than most TEs. He's actually shorter and narrower than you would like a TE to be when you're trying to throw that short yardage TD into the endzone.
Honestly, I'd rather have Niklas only because he is a better endzone target; he's got better hands, is 2 inches bigger, has an extra 20 lbs, and a wider base he can use to box defenders out. Bye the way, Niklas is a much better blocker can get way more "yards after contact", and more importantly will play the same way whether he's getting the ball thrown to or not. Not saying that Niklas is a better player, just a better fit and value in Rd 2.
Also, Mike Evans is a better prospect overall. He's faster, taller, jumps higher, and has better hands, making him a much better endzone threat. He really has no cons as a WR, while Ebron has a few. There's only 3 WRs in this draft with Evans' type of size (Benjamin & Coleman) but neither is close to being as good.
Is Ebron that good that he's worth the 12th pick in the draft, when those other kids aren't even worth 1st round consideration? Is he that much better than they are? That's where I have my doubts.
And, of course, much will depend on whomever else is still on the board when we pick. If Reese & Co feel that Ebron's their man, then so be it. But if he doesn't live up to his billing, then Epic Fail won't begin to describe it.
Pass.
Another concern I have with him that many people don't criticize him for is his vertical. Hes gone up and made some terrific catches but with some targets he couldn't came down with, I kinda noticed a glaring lack of elite vertical skills. Its not a flaw in his game by any means but its not elite either. IMO Tyler Eifert was better high pointing the football than he does, and hes certainly not Jimmy Graham in that department. I think Troy Nikklas does a better job extending his arms and plucking the ball out of the air than Ebron. Ebron kinda just cradles the ball into his body half the time, although hes obviously capable of the one handed stabs.