I believe the current state of the offensive line has improved but is still very much in need of at minimum one more plug and play starter. Reese would be foolish to play with fire and not continue to allocate high resources to this position.
FROM a FA standpoint we signed 2 guys who were.payed starter money and in all likelihood will start right away in Schwartz and Walton.Surely.we.did our due.diligence on Walton . Though he hasnt played in a while.he was awfully good when healthy and.the type of injury he had usually heals up well. It looks.like Reese is trying to build some depth by the signing of John Jerry who I think may improve under the tutelage of Flaherty.
AS this relates to the draft: This draft is one of the deepest in years both in premium skill position players as well as OL. I think the chances of landing a highly rated plug and play starter is almost a definite in rounds 1 and 2. THE chances drop quite a.bit in round 3 but with the depth here and our usual thorough evaluation of draft prospects, I could see us land a decent one round 3 as well.
With that said, I see round 2 as the most likely round we go G/T as the greatest value will be there relative to pick. At 12 unless we still really love Lewan there will be too much value else where at a more premium playmaking position. Martin is really good but he wont be near BPA at 12 in a draft as loaded as this one. As far as another OC , I see us hedging our bet a bit with Walton since they are optimistic but cant be entirely sure on him as well as his shorter 2 year deal. The good news are there are some very interesting later round guys round 3-5 that could be eventual quality starters in the NFL.
Bottomline I see 2 OL picks in the top 5 rounds. G/T in round 1-3 (likely 2) and then OC in rounds 3-5.
But i do agree We need another tackle.....that is for sure.
I suspect Reese wants all the needs covered ....so draft can be bpa.
A top end WR and TE is needed...we are thin on DL.
Reese has done a great job so far.....by still has plenty to do
To answer your question: How much more work does O-Line need?
Quite a lot IMO.
At the tackle position we have Pugh and Beatty. Pugh is fine, while Beatty didn't come near to performing to his new contract and then finished a bad season with a leg injury. If either one of our Tackles go down, what is our current answer coming off the bench?
At Center, I just see questions, but no definitive answers.
I'm with you that the Giants take at least 2 offensive linemen but I'm of the opinion that happens in the some combination of Rounds 1, 2 and 3.
I'm hoping 1 and 2.
I agree with Ira.
The question to me is does Brewer make the roster? Yes he has experience, but to me Goodin and Mosley are better. I have factored him off the roster in the scenario snee and Beatty are healthy.
I see one pick on OL and hope it is no later then day 2, I can see a later pick as well, pending how the draft unfolds.
...I'm with you on Moseley, and I think he may well turn out to be a very fine player.
And, if he were a Tackle or a Center, I would be a little less worried about the O-line unit.
But I'm also of the mind that Mosely and Goodin are essentially unproven players, which would be OK if we had a plus-talent O-line...
...but when we're dealing with the NFL's worst O-line in 2013, it is very difficult to hang one's optimism on two young players who still need to do it over an entire season!
I don't like Reynolds very much either, and he doesn't really "fit" the roster make up and mentality (being he's already 31). This is why I say they need at least 1 Young solid OL.
They need someone to join Pugh in the next wave of younger guys.
He obviously had great ability. But Denver, after retaining his rights, finally released him without bothering to wait for the beginning of 2014 to see what he could do. And then the Redskins picked him up days after he was released and apparently they decided they weren't interested either.
As I've been saying, I believe C, when it is finally filled with a dominant starter, will fix the OL for years to come. Walden apparently had that ability coming out of college in 2010. But at this point, he has to be considered a prayer and a hope. But if he can't do it? Where does that leave the Giants in 2014?
In the end, we have Schwartz and Pugh so YES, in my opinion the O-line needs absolutely more work.
And for all those on BBI that believe the Draft is not for fixing immediate needs and can't help but want to draft Donald, Barr or Evans...we will be wasting money paying Eli, Jennings and Cruz in 2014 (and maybe 2015) because they won't be able to do their jobs.
What the OL needs currently is a veteran swing tackle and another guard/center type.... also a TE who can block...
Then you will have the pieces in place.. getting them to work together well is a different issue..
good plan...
The question to me is does Brewer make the roster? Yes he has experience, but to me Goodin and Mosley are better. I have factored him off the roster in the scenario snee and Beatty are healthy.
I see one pick on OL and hope it is no later then day 2, I can see a later pick as well, pending how the draft unfolds.
This. One day two pick. Probably a tackle because of Beatty's status.
What the OL needs currently is a veteran swing tackle and another guard/center type.... also a TE who can block...
Then you will have the pieces in place.. getting them to work together well is a different issue..
Well said BB.
Mosely has some talent but it helps to stop getting hurt.
For the love of me I have no idea how Brewer could have gotten in front of him in the pecking order based on how he played last season. Brewer can't possibly continue with this team unless he stole the "pics" out of Tom Quinn's office.
Goodin - i don't know.
But i do agree We need another tackle.....that is for sure.
I suspect Reese wants all the needs covered ....so draft can be bpa.
A top end WR and TE is needed...we are thin on DL.
Reese has done a great job so far.....by still has plenty to do
Which OL still available in FA are decent or better starter quality?
For an OL, it's called talent and the ability to play together as a unit....you can be an individual talent, and if everything was one on one, you would fare better....but it doesn't work that way....an OL has to work as a unit...it has to recognize the defense thrown at it and react to it....you can have 5 great individual guys, but if they can't play as a unit and adjust to whatever the defense throws at them, it fails....and when you change a majority of the pieces, it doesn't happen overnight.....
With the new players, you can only hope that the play of the line progresses as the season starts.....they may gel, they may not....last year, opposing defenses knew that a key weakness of this line was center, left of center, and right of center....they continually ran stunts in that area, because we had a hard time picking it up....
Pugh had his growing pains at the start of the year, but got better....hopefully, this line, which needs one more piece(plus a good blocking TE), will do the same....
He obviously had great ability. But Denver, after retaining his rights, finally released him without bothering to wait for the beginning of 2014 to see what he could do. And then the Redskins picked him up days after he was released and apparently they decided they weren't interested either.
As I've been saying, I believe C, when it is finally filled with a dominant starter, will fix the OL for years to come. Walden apparently had that ability coming out of college in 2010. But at this point, he has to be considered a prayer and a hope. But if he can't do it? Where does that leave the Giants in 2014?
Bill we payed him starter money and are usually quite thorough with medical.evaluation.
Ankles usually arent career enders either. In any event I did say I believe we still go for a.Center in this draft too.
if we want martin we will just take him.
i think evans will be long gone. still cant shake the feeling matthews will slip. he is not a dominant player but its assumed he will work himself into a very good one for a long time..his name is helping him
For an OL, it's called talent and the ability to play together as a unit....you can be an individual talent, and if everything was one on one, you would fare better....but it doesn't work that way....an OL has to work as a unit...it has to recognize the defense thrown at it and react to it....you can have 5 great individual guys, but if they can't play as a unit and adjust to whatever the defense throws at them, it fails....and when you change a majority of the pieces, it doesn't happen overnight.....
With the new players, you can only hope that the play of the line progresses as the season starts.....they may gel, they may not....last year, opposing defenses knew that a key weakness of this line was center, left of center, and right of center....they continually ran stunts in that area, because we had a hard time picking it up....
Pugh had his growing pains at the start of the year, but got better....hopefully, this line, which needs one more piece(plus a good blocking TE), will do the same....
Good.post. Which is why I think Reese will try to get his future core starters all this year for this OL in one fell swoop. I also think they give Beatty another chance. He was awfully good in 2012 and parts of 2011. Giants dont give up on players easily unless of severe character issues or they give up on the team.
do not hold ur breath waiting for them to draft a C
if we want martin we will just take him.
i think evans will be long gone. still cant shake the feeling matthews will slip. he is not a dominant player but its assumed he will work himself into a very good one for a long time..his name is helping him
I wouldn't be entirely upset if we took him either. I see him as a very solid versatile and sound player who starts day 1 but a couple guys wed pass up at 12 could be dominant playmakers.
I think we still get a plug play high quality OL guy at 43 (maybe not Martin level but still high quality starters material) AND then a dominant day 1 playmaker.at 12 in Donald Evans Ebron or Marqise Lee. Thats best value IMO
What I don't understand is whey there is any confidence he's anything more than a question mark. He hasn't played in two full seasons because of medical complications with the healing of the injury. Throughout, Denver held onto his rights and then, just 3-4 months ago, they decided he wasn't worth holding onto and simply released him. Then Washington grabbed him - but they apparently decided he was too risky too.
He obviously was a great talent coming out of the draft in 2010 and Denver hit a home run since he started every game for them in 2010 and 2011. In 2010, he was clearly the type of Center I think the Giants need - someone who is going to anchor the OL for a decade. But with Denver letting him go, followed by Washington, it seems pretty apparent to me that it isn't a can't lose proposition here - if there were no question marks - if he was clearly the player he was in 2010 without any doubts - Denver would NEVER have let him go.
It is pretty clear Giants are taking a flyer on a guy who in the past had all the talent in the world - the exact talent the team desperately needs right now - but to think for a moment that he's a can't miss answer for Center means Denver, who drafted him, who saw him start for two years - he kept him for two more years while he rehabbed - don't have a clue what their doing.
So, all I'm saying is that the best anyone can say about him is that he is a huge question mark. It would be wonderful - incredibly wonderful - if he is the same guy he was in 2010. My question is - with such a huge ? about what he can do - is what are the Giants' plans IF he is a bust?
Need an OT.
What I don't understand is whey there is any confidence he's anything more than a question mark. He hasn't played in two full seasons because of medical complications with the healing of the injury. Throughout, Denver held onto his rights and then, just 3-4 months ago, they decided he wasn't worth holding onto and simply released him. Then Washington grabbed him - but they apparently decided he was too risky too.
He obviously was a great talent coming out of the draft in 2010 and Denver hit a home run since he started every game for them in 2010 and 2011. In 2010, he was clearly the type of Center I think the Giants need - someone who is going to anchor the OL for a decade. But with Denver letting him go, followed by Washington, it seems pretty apparent to me that it isn't a can't lose proposition here - if there were no question marks - if he was clearly the player he was in 2010 without any doubts - Denver would NEVER have let him go.
It is pretty clear Giants are taking a flyer on a guy who in the past had all the talent in the world - the exact talent the team desperately needs right now - but to think for a moment that he's a can't miss answer for Center means Denver, who drafted him, who saw him start for two years - he kept him for two more years while he rehabbed - don't have a clue what their doing.
So, all I'm saying is that the best anyone can say about him is that he is a huge question mark. It would be wonderful - incredibly wonderful - if he is the same guy he was in 2010. My question is - with such a huge ? about what he can do - is what are the Giants' plans IF he is a bust?
Good rebttal. Heres my take. Teams shuffling 54 man rosters can get impatient real quick especially if there back up center plays ok. I think they got tired of waiting and holding up that spot. Washington is like their owner always wants instant gratification. Walton couldnt play quick enough they moved on.
With all that said I still think they draft a C in rounds 3 to 5 as there is still some risk involved here
So 3/5s of our OL is manned by question marks (not literally).
WR in round 2
TE in round 3
C in round 4
DT in round 5
To me that's where the value should be when we are drafting. After that BPA.
Quote:
Battle-tested, experienced four-year starter in the SEC. Outstanding personal and football character. Very smart, mature and highly respected.
That's the kind of kid I want on my team.
With how loaded this draft is he is exactly the type of talent at Ol that can make it to 43. Boylhart also give him a glowing review and first round grade.
I think we need at the very least one more solid starter.
I think we need at the very least one more solid starter.
Agreed. But at this point that guy is likely coming from.the draft. And unless we still love Lewan or Matthews drops, Round 2 will have best value there.
If you're looking at OGs only (after the first two rounds, where the usual suspects will be in play, and who might be able to make a switch to Center) Penn State's Jack Urschel, ND's Chris Watt, and Furman's Dakota Dozier should be at the top of your list.
I think 2 lineman within the first 3 rounds is a must. There is no depth.
Giants need to hit OL twice in the first couple of rounds
Evans/Ebron @ #12 and a starting RT @ #43 may be the way to go.
This offense needs more playmakers as well as OL.
If you buy what PFF is selling, Walton was one of the worst - if not the worst - rated Centers in 2010 and 2011, although Denver did have much success running the ball when he was in the pivot. And it should be noted that his PFF grade went from ridiculously negative to mostly positive for the four games he started in 2012 (when Peyton Manning took over). Still - and this was partly due to Denver's regime change - the Broncos drafted another Center in 2012 (Phillip Blake, 4th round), and brought in a couple of UFAs - Dan Koppen and Rich Hochstein from New England. They also had Manny Ramirez in the fold, and whether by necessity or design, they transitioned him from Guard to Center.
Now, Walton hasn't played a game in two years, and while the Giants gave him enough of a contract to make him their presumptive starter, his numbers pale in comparison to what former-flavor-of-the-month Evan Dietrich-Smith got from the Bucs, so it's possible that the Giants were willing to roll the dice with Walton because he came at a substantial discount.
Do they have a Plan B? Right now it's Dallas Reynolds. I'd say that's more like a Plan B-minus. Will they draft a Center this year? As much as I'd like them to, they haven't drafted a Center since 2003, and then it was late 7th round pick Wayne Lucier. Since then the Giants have been content to find their Centers in free agency, first with Shaun O'Hara, then David Baas. They also had Kevin Boothe as a capable backup. Now they have Walton.
If I'm Jerry Reese (and I'm not), I would hedge my Walton bet by drafting a good Center prospect, preferably one who could also play Guard. I like Weston Richburg relatively early, others may like Martin or Swanson, but if they go the Lucier route again, I'd figure guys like Jonotthan Harrison, Gabe Ikard, or Tyler Larsen could be in play.
Well...that was a bit more than a few words.
Schwartz and hopefully Walton is healed and ready to go. And, again hopefully - Jerry can give the something.
Re: the starters - just too much uncertainty. And who can they depend on for depth?
Evans/Ebron @ #12 and a starting RT @ #43 may be the way to go.
This offense needs more playmakers as well as OL.
That could very well be the type of path they take
...thank you!
You hit the nail on the head.
Bart Oates - from the USFL (and a solid to great center)
Shaun O'Hara - undrafted started with Cleveland
Those are the ones that immediately come to mind ... I'm probably missing lots of them ... BUT these are the kinds of guys the Giants need at Center - especially a guy like Clack (I didn't look, but I bet he's in the HOF) ... guys that are all-pros and dominate their position for 12-15 years
LT may have been the genesis of the reality behind the movie "The Blindside" and the importance of the LOT, but I still say that if I owned a NFL team, it would be the Center position that I filled first with the likes of a Jim Clack.
Quote:
? Looks like that may be possible.
Evans/Ebron @ #12 and a starting RT @ #43 may be the way to go.
This offense needs more playmakers as well as OL.
That could very well be the type of path they take
I'm thinking it has to be some combination of a Playmaker on Offense (WR/TE), OL, OL. I think we have to be thinking 2 OL (at least one starter) in the first 3 picks.
OC is weak in this draft though in R6 i still think tyler larsen from utah state may be available (plus he can play OG as well). serviceable, strong and pulls well.
although forecasting anything after R2 is a complete crap shoot, my preference this year (which i know isn't routinely the giants' strategy) would be to go for need. so:
R3 bruce ellington WR from s. carolina
R4 james gayle DL from va tech
R5 jerome smth RB from syracuse
but what the hell do i know? its anybody's guess, right?
I'd love us to come out of the draft with either Martin or Su'a-Filo and Mewhort.
I'd love us to come out of the draft with either Martin or Su'a-Filo and Mewhort.
Agree, as far as I am concerned, they signed "bodies" and there is no proof these guys will get the job done. Signing that one guy for 4 years was pretty dumb. We should be drafting on oline and dline and rebuilding with youth. This reminds me some of signing like Canty, etc that did not pan out.
You need veterans on your O-Line. Did you think the Giants were going to draft three or four new starters this year? Besides, they're still hoping to get something out of Mosley (26), maybe even Goodin (26) and Herman (25). Even J.D. Walton is on the sunny side of 30 (27).
And what, exactly, reminds you of the Canty signing?
...none of us want mediocrity chasing Eli into his retirement.
We need to draft QUALITY along the offensive line. This year and next.
...none of us want mediocrity chasing Eli into his retirement.
We need to draft QUALITY along the offensive line. This year and next.
So? Who's to say we won't? But it's going to be one, maybe two players this year, with no guarantee that any of them start from the get-go. Where do you or mdc1 think we'll get our other O-Linemen from?
2. with this team that has meant the OL, which is to do with the style of ball and emphasis (for one example the type of qbs we use, the play calling, the ball control idea etc etc)
3. Eli will be retiring at some point, the very best recipe for that transition would be a dominant OL, (for reasons too obvious to state) which means we have to start now with young players...who will become those great vets.
4. we are not nearly there yet.
My mock
1-Donald or Evans
2-Troy Niklas-TE
3-Ja Wuan James- OT Great feet for a left tackle
4-Gabe Ikard C-our future center
5-John Brown WR-4.34 speed and hands
...the Giants will be devoting premium picks to the offensive line over the next TWO Drafts.
With 6 picks in the first three rounds, I could see the 2014/2015 Drafts shaping up like this:
One O-linemen in Round 1;
Two O-linemen in Round 2;
One O-linemen in Round 3.
That's two-thirds of our premium picks over the next two drafts devoted to the offensive line.
We'll need everyone of them!
Then, I like the idea of packaging that third rounder and moving up to get another dominant lineman in the second. Maybe we could get Yankey or Su'a Filo.
Rebuilding with stud linemen isn't the sexy moves and means passing on playmakers, but from time to time it has to be done. I think this could be the year we do that, and if we get 2-3 really good linemen out of this draft I'll be very happy.
Let's see how our recent free agent acquisitions - Schwartz, Walton, Jerry - perform (not to mention any that might be signed after the draft), as well as some guys already on the roster - Beatty, Mosley, Goodin, Herman - before we decide to devote the bulk of this draft's premium picks (and the next one's) to the offensive line.
We do have other needs besides upgrading the O-Line. We're dangerously thin at both DE and DT, with enough age and uncertainty to warrant devoting premium picks to both positions.
We have one proven WR and a lot of question marks.
We have next to nothing at TE.
We look okay at CB now, but we could look a lot different next year if we don't re-sign Thurmond, or Prince (assuming we don't exercise his option), or if Hosley fails to develop.
Four of our five Safeties are free agents next year.
And while we rarely use premium picks on linebackers, there's always hope.
...I agree with pretty much with everything you say, but IMO this team makes no appreciable stride forward without plus-talent on the O-line. Right now, there is no plus talent unless you want to count Pugh, who if he continues in the right direction would be our only plus player.
What I don't want is to be pigeon-holed into thinking that we must draft an OT in round one! Which is usually followed by then we can get the best OG in round two! If the value isn't there, I say go where the value is, regardless of position. As I wrote earlier, we do have other needs.
I agree that Giants shouldn't just chase the positions of Tackle & Guard without considering value as well. But within a reasonable range, Reese might have to stretch his board at both positions to shorten the turnaround time for this team.
LT - Beatty
LG - Schwartz
C - Walton
RG - Snee
RT - Pugh
BY GAME 6:
LT - Pugh
LG - Schwartz
C - Reynolds
RG - Jerry
RT - Brewer or 2nd Rd Pick
Good luck with this...
And always with those negative waves...
Hopefully, somebody helps him out this season...