I am fascinated with Donald but he is the opposite body type

Big Hank is a prototypical 4-3 NT type player so you can put a 3 tech guy like Donald next to him and have it work.

But his speed and strength are off the charts, and he wins with those skills against bigger guys routinely.

What's more, I think that he could also play LDE at times for us, and would be incredibly hard to run against from that position.

as he demands double teams and the thought of him with JPP (assuming he can get back to form), Jenkins, Moore and Hankins really solidifies the pass rush up front. The theme of the off season so far on D has been speed and he fits that to a T.
A Football Story - Aaron Donald - ( New Window )

we pick Donald over Ebron or Evans

For all the potential position changes mentioned - Pugh from RT to LT / RG, Kiwi from DE to LB to DE, if drafted Barr from LB to DE - we've always moved our DLs around the line.

So if Donald is off the charts in everything but size at DT, wouldn't he project to DE from there? That seems a much easier transition if necessary.

.

it's absolutely an important part of DL play, JPP's 2011 is a great example of how important length can be.

Donald is smaller and lacks the classic Giants DL body type. But I think he makes up for it with his freakish inside quickness and explosiveness.

Interior pressure is just so important in today's NFL with the quicker drops, Donald looks like he can be a truly elite interior pass rusher. He might get swallowed up at times especially on doubles, but stick him in between JPP/Hank and he should see 1v1 matchups a lot. The lack of size is an issue and a potential downfall for him as an NFL player but his ceiling is just so high. Top 10 ceiling in this draft easy.

can fill the role that The Hammer used to fill.

Pro (DraftNasty):

Quote:

Time to get NASTY (Our Summary)... It's hard to find many negatives in Donald's game other than size and positional fit. As a defensive tackle he can be schemed versus the run, and teams which two-gap may not have him on their boards. There aren't as many 40-front, one-gap schemes in the NFL as there were 10 years ago. Pittsburgh aligned him as an end in 30-fronts and as both a DE and three-technique in their 4-3 looks. From a positional flexibility standpoint, some NFL team may even [see him as] a Melvin Ingram-type (Chargers) facet on third downs. This is the type of athleticism and versatility Donald brings to the table. Aaron is a powerful, disruptive mix of Ingram and Buffalo Bills defensive tackle Kyle Williams. We think he has first round value.

Con (NFl.com):

Quote:

Draft Projection Rounds 4-5 Weaknesses: Marginal height and frame is nearly maxed out. Hands are more active than strong -- could play with more pop and power. Overpowered in the run game and ground up by double teams. Gets snared and controlled by bigger, longer blockers. Not a two-gap player. Has some tweener traits -- lacks ideal length and bend to play outside. Bottom Line: Short, scrappy, instinctive, highly productive defensive lineman who does not look the part, but inspires confidence he can be an exception to the rule. Is the type you root for and has the quickness, athleticism and motor to earn a spot as a rotational three-technique in a fast-flowing 4-3 scheme.

DTs. At every level of football you see them succeed. They are a step faster then most Olinemen. They have a back for getting tackles in that backfield and sacks and always have a chip on their shoulder.

I don't see why a guy like Donald can't succeed in the NFL. He wouldn't be asked to start right away rather come in as a pass rushing DT on obvious passing downs.

that's a great thing.

are too short for success at the NFL level. And dynamo is the same word I came up with to describe AD.

1. How effective can a dominant DT be?

Assume Donald is lights out in the NFL, how does that affect our defense? It seems to me that a DT has a much lower ceiling than a DE, thus I wonder if it's wise to invest a high pick in that position. The difference between a pro-bowl DT and an average DT, in terms of their effects on the game, is smaller than the difference between a pro-bowl DE or LB and their average counterparts.

2. Will a DT who's undersized yet effective against college O-line still be able to pull that off against pro O-line who are stronger, faster and smarter?


I'm not for or against Donald, these are just some thoughts that occurred to me as I was reading this thread.

;prototypical NT type'.

Hank may be more of a 'some downs nose type' with elements of a canty/cofield. that is, more athletic than a NT when it comes to jumping and short/medium movement in space for a tackle than a 'prototypical' nose, yet perhaps not having as much low power on a play to play basis as a wilfork or prototype nose.

A very useful player, but not let's not just shove him into nose due to weight alone.

I think part of the attribution for lack of pass rush was a very vanilla assignment list for the DTs....and that, in turn, partly due to lack of faith in the left DE side to hold up, and partly due to coaches being wedded to classic 4/3 linebacker centric scheming.

Bottom line- excellent left DE play (might/would/could) allow the DC the faith to loosen up the interior responsibilities and may help the interior rush with jenk and hank.

one he looked meh, pushing down the line, average power.

the other, light out...BUT...he was hardly touched on many plays,

I just wonder if that situation would continue in the NFL, where guards and centers have much better technique and higher average skill, power.

not saying that I know the answer here...I dont.

one the other hand, ANY member of our DL garnering double teams would be fun.

Yes, Hankins is a bit more versatile and doesn't have to be pegged as a NT only.. I just think those two would mesh well on the interior.

but he has long arms for his height at 32 5/8. This is within an inch of Anthony Barr who is almost 6'5 (and also longer than our own Justin Pugh by an inch). For him to put up 35 reps on the bench with long arms for his height is incredible.

I think people would just run right over moore and kiwi at this point, including QBs scrambling to pass and run.

conversely, if we had a real dynamic run/pass DE on that side, hank/jenk/jpp could really thrive (and maybe donald also...but how to get early round 2 dls in this draft is a mystery)

also- I am leery of college tapes in interior DL...too many weak or inexperienced guards at that level.

its one position where size and speed and athletics/attitude count a lot.

but...i really dont know the player so...

In comment 11582146 Jerz44 said:

Quote:

1. How effective can a dominant DT be? Assume Donald is lights out in the NFL, how does that affect our defense?

If Donald succeeds in the NFL (which I believe he will) whatever teams has him, the fans will love the guy. On each play he will do his best to get into the backfield and ruin the play. It's going to happen. How often? It depends if the offense is willing to double/triple Donald. Any play they decide not to, well, Donald will take the handoff from the QB himself.

Every snap is going to be a big concern for the offense. When the offense is determined to stop him, another guy like Moore, JPP, Hankins will have a great chance to make a play themselves.

not primarily a NT type DT like Joseph, why did we let Joseph leave? Joseph was affordable and our defense was working last year ? We will see the results.

I'm not confident in the personnel we have right now against the run in that spot.

is an interesting way to put with regard to his possible place in the NFL.

We've seen the Geno Atkins comparison (granted he was a 4th rounder). That guy won games for the Bengals before he got injured.

A penetrative DT + a healthy JPP would be a nightmare for opposing teams.

of the top DTs, can any play the left DE?

Tuit maybe? Hageman?

Also, what about the larger DEs this year, such as chrichton, martin, ealy, urban?

Giants never draft a DT in round one. Twice they drafted a DT in round two-- Joseph and Austin. Both those guys had the prototypical size and Austin was considered a good pass rusher.

Trying to remember if the giants passed on that smallish but highly productive pass rushing DT in prior first round drafts?

I think the giants board looks something like this, taking into account who's likely to be available at 12---in no particular order:

Evans (we know they love big physical Wrs and Evans has it all)

Barr (we know Reese has been trying to find that pass rushing LB, is this his white whale? Couldn't get the Seattle LB, Simtim busted could Barr be his guy?)

Zack martin (see Pugh and Reese's love for versatile guys along the OL)

Aaron Donald (I have to believe the giants love this kid because he can get to the QB-- he's a disruptive player from the DT spot. Based on how this regime operates I think he's a distinct possibility even if he is a bit on the small side, which is kind of crazy because he's really not undersized at all-- maybe I'm out on a limb but I think NYG could take Donald)

Kony Ealy (the usual.. Giants always draft DEs early and often and from most accounts this guy is the best of a weak lot) I don't think NYG take him but I had to include one de here)

I have flip flopped all month long but as of now I think they take zack Martin. He fits so many needs as a versatile player and as a tackle represents good value.

I wonder if he drops to round 3 or 4:

reliable CBS says:

''
COMPARES TO: Lamarr Houston: Quick, strong and tenacious, Quarles projects equally well inside as a 4-3 defensive tackle or outside as a five-technique defensive end.''

They drafted Austin high and signed Jenkins who is no behemoth

Those 2 look like they'll be drafted between our 1st and 2nd picks anyway.

Ealy looks like a guy you'd have to put at RDE in a 4-3

Crichton could be a fit.. that's a guy who seems to be pegged as a 4-3 end from what I've read on him.

destroys the read option

The Giants do not deviate from normal height with FIRST ROUND picks because of their value. When you look at the tape and see the rush ability of the player it is hard to not want him on your team. The hard part is to see that a player like this would find it hard to stand up to 340 pound guards in the run game. He's is the kind of player fans have wanted the Giants to draft for years.....and they never do. First year players are with us for five years (not 4, as you have an option for 5), they make your stars cost efficient) and it's hard to negate the risk factor. I will say this though, if there was a player to deviate from the norm on it would be him. If our offense is ok, this guy could bring you a championship, with a dominating front. We have a limited window now with Eli to get that 3rd ring, if the team believes enough, we may roll the bones here. He is definitely has the most impact upside of anyone else left where we pick.

that the thing a QB hates the most is an inside rush?

Austin had horrific football instincts and always played high while regularly getting pushed around at north Carolina, but as far as the athleticism + undersized 3T combination.. marvin Austin had a somewhat similar skill set as aaron Donald. Reese and ross loved the guy, going as far as to call him a first round talent. They drafted Jay Alford round 3 in 2007.

They have a record of drafting undersized defensive tackles, and aaron Donald is the best of his kind to come out of the draft in a long, long time

So the bulk of Reese's recent DT pickups have been shortish.

strange opinions and ideas in this thread, starting with the title. I think JR would be flexible enough to take a DT who is not tall if he thought he could be a disruptive force.
This idea of Donald playing DE is a bad one if you ask me.The guy will be best at the position he already played in college, Its not like he is more the body type for DE, he's short quick and thick, leave him where he is. And run defense at the DE spot? That is all well and good, but what about the 60+% of the time that opposing teams will be passing?
And for the guy who wondered about the value of DT in this defense, Im not saying that Dnald will be in his league, but, you heard of Warren Sapp? A penetrating DT who can tackle RBs on the way to the QB is worth his weight in gold.
And the only position I hope Kiwi switches to is bench.

but a good portion...

Donald is right there with Clowney when you compare his combine numbers? Add on top of that the numbers he put up and all of the awards he won this year.

The tape doesn't lie and he isn't a fluke, he's the real deal.

Clowney - 6'5, 266, 4.53 - 40, 1.56 - 10 yard, 7.27 - 3 cone

Donald - 6'.06, 285, 4.68 - 40, 1.59 -10 yard, 7.11 - 3 cone

in part because I don't love the other guys at 12 but also because I see his floor as being prime Justin Tuck inside pass rusher on passing downs specialty player.

Prime Justin Tuck playing on the inside on passing downs was the Giants most important defensive player in two Superbowls. Its really hard to overrate how impactful a great inside pass rusher can be.

330 lbs fast and more athletic guards on a consistent basis during their time. Gino Atkins is 18 lbs heavier than Donald. Do you want to take a chance spending a #12 pick on player who that may not produce against the running game. How often will he be able to penetrate past guards to stop the run? We don't know.

15 pounds heavier. Donald has better production then Jernigan, but because he doesn't meet the prototypical size we should just discount everything he's done and his other attributes? Strength and quickness must also be accounted for and Donald also has the work ethic and attitude to boot. Those are traits that can't be taught. He is a player and I think it would be a mistake if he wasn't in the conversation at #12. Someone is going to get a 10year starter and terrific player. Is he a risk at #12? Perhaps, and maybe this is the year that the Giants won't want to make that risk due to comments that Mara has made, but most draft picks are a crap shoot. Very few are can't miss players. Will be quite a dilemma in the first round.

Arms are too short. 40's too slow. Weight is too low. etc

In comment 11582391 DonnieD89 said:

Quote:

330 lbs fast and more athletic guards on a consistent basis during their time. Gino Atkins is 18 lbs heavier than Donald. Do you want to take a chance spending a #12 pick on player who that may not produce against the running game. How often will he be able to penetrate past guards to stop the run? We don't know.

do you know how easy it is for a 22 year old pro football player to gain 20 pounds?

people place wayyyyy too much emphasis on measureables. if the guy can play, he can play.

depends on the frame. I think Donald is near his max playing weight

In comment 11582058 arcarsenal said:

Quote:

Big Hank is a prototypical 4-3 NT type player so you can put a 3 tech guy like Donald next to him and have it work.

Agreed but do the Giants feel the same way?

Do you realize that Donald's official 40 time of 4.68 is the fastest time ever for a DT?

To answer your question about how would he handle athletic 330lb lineman? The answer is simple....typical NFL lineman run 5.2-5.4 forty times....Donald despite his size....creates a huge mismatch from a strength and speed standpoint...those kind of measurables have not been seen by NFL lineman and Donald will put a tremendous amount of stress on these big elephants...

It's simple....guys on this board are reacting to what they see with their eyes...that's why we are getting huge interest on this board for Donald...it's the tape...people are seeing a smallish DT consistently being too fast and too quick for 330lb OL...combined that with freakish strength....in most instances Donald is much stronger then the guys he is going against...you create a huge mismatch which will translate at the next level....check out the practice reports from the senior bowl...were he routinely beat like a drum...projected 1st and 2nd round talent....Zack Martin, Cyril Richardson, and Gabe Jackson...

For those that continue to say Donald is too small compare Donald at the combine to Gino Atkins:

Gino Atkins - 2010 NFL Combine
Pre-draft measurables
Ht Wt 40-yd dash 10-yd split 20-yd split 20-ss 3-cone Vert Broad BP
6 ft 2 in 293 lb 4.75 s 1.68 s 1.64 s 4.43 s 7.33 s 33 in 9 ft 9 in 34 reps

Aaron Donald - 2014 NFL Combine
Pre-draft measurables
Ht Wt Arm length Hand size 40-yd dash 10-yd split 20-yd split 20-ss 3-cone Vert Broad BP
6 ft 0 3⁄4 in 285 lb 32 5⁄8 in 9 7⁄8 in 4.68 s 1.59 s 7.11 s 32 in 9 ft 8 in 35 reps

In comment 11582503 Bill in UT said:

Quote:

depends on the frame. I think Donald is near his max playing weight

Agree. I think he may have maxed out. Measurable's do matter. The laws of physics are for him and against him at DT at the pro level. He maybe an anomaly and he may prove me wrong, but I am not sure I would want to use my #12 pick on based on my uncertainty. I would rather invest in in a player like Lewan or Evans. This is just my opinion.

Donald creates a mismatch from a quickness and speed standpoint...

In comment 11582557 geelabee said:

Quote:

Do you realize that Donald's official 40 time of 4.68 is the fastest time ever for a DT? To answer your question about how would he handle athletic 330lb lineman? The answer is simple....typical NFL lineman run 5.2-5.4 forty times....Donald despite his size....creates a huge mismatch from a strength and speed standpoint...those kind of measurables have not been seen by NFL lineman and Donald will put a tremendous amount of stress on these big elephants... It's simple....guys on this board are reacting to what they see with their eyes...that's why we are getting huge interest on this board for Donald...it's the tape...people are seeing a smallish DT consistently being too fast and too quick for 330lb OL...combined that with freakish strength....in most instances Donald is much stronger then the guys he is going against...you create a huge mismatch which will translate at the next level....check out the practice reports from the senior bowl...were he routinely beat like a drum...projected 1st and 2nd round talent....Zack Martin, Cyril Richardson, and Gabe Jackson... For those that continue to say Donald is too small compare Donald at the combine to Gino Atkins: Gino Atkins - 2010 NFL Combine Pre-draft measurables Ht Wt 40-yd dash 10-yd split 20-yd split 20-ss 3-cone Vert Broad BP 6 ft 2 in 293 lb 4.75 s 1.68 s 1.64 s 4.43 s 7.33 s 33 in 9 ft 9 in 34 reps Aaron Donald - 2014 NFL Combine Pre-draft measurables Ht Wt Arm length Hand size 40-yd dash 10-yd split 20-yd split 20-ss 3-cone Vert Broad BP 6 ft 0 3⁄4 in 285 lb 32 5⁄8 in 9 7⁄8 in 4.68 s 1.59 s 7.11 s 32 in 9 ft 8 in 35 reps

Rembert Gino Atkins was a 4th round pick. Less of a risk. Don't you think?

Clowney did 21 bench reps and Donald did 35 reps.

The most important thing is how does he look on film. Numbers, combine wise are great, but the reality is how did he play is what's important. Donald's stats and awards speak for themselves.

I see BPA as "best play maker available" and Aaron Donald is that guy. I believe he will make the most good plays per snap than any other guy on the board. Based upon work ethic and consistency alone, I like him better than Clowney.

Most posters would think I'm nuts but I really pick Donald over Clowney. I've seen quite a bit of tape on both.

involved in awards. I'd just go by the stats and the tape. Same thing with Borland, some bad measurables, he just makes all the plays

is people thinking that 20lbs makes him better.. really ?? 20lbs spread across his ENTIRE frame makes him better and harder to move.. HOW.. Im not an NFL football player but if you added 20lbs to ANY large object it would NOT make it that much harder for me to move or control..

I mean really.. its just stupid..

however, drafting one as you say might not make as much sense as we think right here:

if we have a stick-thin demontre moore at defensive end.

a player like donald, you kind of need a very comprehensive DL all around,not just for subbing, but also for a cohesive line while he is in there.

possibly as a situational player, and assuming you also draft a massive left DE, which is a lot to ask for in a year that basics such as O line are probably a priority.

I leave the nuances of 'varied levels of 1st round greatness' to you guys.

It is about the #12 pick and taking the risk of the investment. Yes, he Donald makes plays, so did Poz and he ended up in the 2nd round. Is Donald going up against pros right now. No. We don't know. This is not stupid. It is common sense to question how Donald projects at the pro level. It is stupid to not question this and how he will handle the run. If the Giants are certain he is worth the #12 pick then I am for it.

however, an interesting thread.

some of the tape on donald is not that great from a power standpoint, not bad, but not all what people are saying....

and some...he does not get touched at all by guards. not sure that would continue in the NFL...the not being touched at all.

so it's the same crapshoot for all of them. I'd take the Pitt schedule against my alma mata, the U of Buffalo, where Mack has made his reputation. As to size, I see an awful lot of huge college guards. They may not be as talented as the guys will be at the next level, but I'm sure Donald has gone up against guys just as big as he will on Sundays

get a grab plus some leverage, faster smaller DTs get the double team from a center and a guard and get pushed out

not predicting that, but we have seen this in the past

possibly we invest in the OL early and a big DE a bit later. hank and jenk are not shlubs.

In comment 11582248 Dry Lightning said:

Quote:

The Giants do not deviate from normal height with FIRST ROUND picks because of their value. When you look at the tape and see the rush ability of the player it is hard to not want him on your team. The hard part is to see that a player like this would find it hard to stand up to 340 pound guards in the run game. He's is the kind of player fans have wanted the Giants to draft for years.....and they never do. First year players are with us for five years (not 4, as you have an option for 5), they make your stars cost efficient) and it's hard to negate the risk factor. I will say this though, if there was a player to deviate from the norm on it would be him. If our offense is ok, this guy could bring you a championship, with a dominating front. We have a limited window now with Eli to get that 3rd ring, if the team believes enough, we may roll the bones here. He is definitely has the most impact upside of anyone else left where we pick.

If we feel he has DE versatility on run downs I could see us pulling the trigger.

Doing intense homework on Donald. Like I said, I question him at #12, but if the Giant staff takes him, I am fine with it.

on DL you have hank, young...good...

on OL, you have Snee, a warrior, but barely out of a wheelchair...and Mosely, who might be ok.

if you target greatest % margin of improvement year over year...you might not target DTs in this draft

If he is the next Warren Sapp.....it will be a no brainer. But under sized DTs have a high bust rate.

if you look at Reese's draft history and how they like to use CAP space, they usually deemphasis linebackers and DT's, especially DT's who seem to come in and perform one rookie contract and leave -- griffin, cofield, joseph, with hardly a pursuant effort to re-sign them...

Plus Giants have had decent history finding those DT's in the middle rounds.

I would be a little surprised if they went DT with the first pick, but if Donald blows them away you know they think he can be elite.

I still see them going with a skill player though, or O-line.

when you watch the videos where EVERY opposing coach mentions him by name.. saying we have to game plan to stop this ONE guy on the defense.. and there isnt anyone else on that Pitt DL that you see anyone talking about.. now put him on the Giants DL.. he double him.. go head.. but that means someone else isnt getting doubled..
Donald - ( New Window )

In comment 11582822 George from PA said:

Quote:

If he is the next Warren Sapp.....it will be a no brainer. But under sized DTs have a high bust rate.

How many undersized DTs had this kids strength and amazing production in college? Geno Atkins had half his production in college and no where near the number of tackles.

but I have to custom order my pants with an extra large crotch region.

Spackler has a dicklap....lol

wait, whaaaaat????