In fact, I was watching NLFN last night and they were discussing his occasional drops and saying it wasn't "bad hands" but just lapses in concentration because he makes a lot of difficult catches look easy.
I don't know how Ebron had a lapse of concentration on his Pro Day though.
Great, hope he drops all the way to our 2nd round pick...
Ebron had a slight case of the dropsies during the Pro Day, apparently dropping three balls and "double-catching" another. That led to some analysts noting the high percentage of balls Ebron dropped in 2013.
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Had an 11.43% drop rate in 2013 RT @jjones9: Here at UNC Pro Day where TE Eric Ebron has registered three drops so far
So this isn't a case of him looking great in pads, but not so great in gym shorts. It's a case of a guy who dropped a lot of catchable balls in college and then dropped a lot of catchable balls on his Pro Day.
As for JaMarcus Russell, he wasn't drafted #1 overall because of his Pro Day, he was drafted #1 overall based on his senior season and the Sugar Bowl.
And the fact that it's been documented that he had a problem with drops during the season, and again during his pro day doesn't make some of you hesitate?
I was watching NLFN last night and they were discussing his occasional drops and saying it wasn't "bad hands" but just lapses in concentration because he makes a lot of difficult catches look easy.
If he drops a pass that keeps his team out of the playoffs, will it really matter whether he dropped it because he had bad hands or because it was a concentration lapse? I don't think the shitload of money that comes with being the 12th pick in the draft is going to improve his concentration.
I don't think the Giants should spend the 12th pick in the draft on a low-character athlete when there will be some equally talented prospects who have high character available with the same pick.
David Hamilton @DavidHamiltonTV 1h
Ebron jokes with #Giants scout that he's in the groove now. "Don't turn your back now. Don't want to miss this"...then drops 3rd pass of day
As someone who has followed the draft a long time, writing off a player because of a performance in one game, an all-star game, or a pro day is just downright silly.
Doesn't exactly scream 1st rounder. I don't get all the hype surrounding Ebron. I really don't. I think a lot of people just watch some YouTube highlights and form a self educated opinion and no longer really watch football.
I agree Milton. I was just saying the NFLN was trying to
He knew he had to go out and have a good performance to solidify his draft status. For a top receiving TE, especially one that has been known to drop a few balls and has some questions about his blocking ability, holding onto the ball was paramount. The fact that he dropped a few could knock him down a notch from mid-first to late-first round.
that's not really fair. I think Russ Lande watches a whole lot of football right?
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He is the best tight-end prospect I have evaluated since Kellen Winslow Jr. Although many are projecting that teams like the Ravens and Jets will be interested in him, a number of NFL people I've spoken with recently believe he will be selected in the top 12, because he is a rare talent who could be better than Jimmy Graham.
I'm not even advocating taking him but some pretty respected people sure like him.
I'm all for adding a playmaker if he's legit. I just don't know if I trust the board sentiment. We seem to have a bias towards TEs around here. The Fleenermania was off-putting.
Those holes might not be as big as the hole at TE, but all three units could use some help.
I wouldn't be upset to have Ebron on the Giants, but I'd rather take a crack at a Offensive or Defensive Tackle, have that guy on a rookie deal for a few season before that 2nd contract money comes into play.
I wonder this with the combine too. Why bother do it in under armor gear when you play football in pads? That's like someone wanting to drive Mac trucks, and practicing driving with a fucking hybrid. All you need is to see the tape of all players. Running around without a shirt like some players do or in shorts makes no sense because you play in pads and a uniform.
However, it's all part of the draft process I guess. That's why I hold more value to the eye in the sky, because it doesn't lie. That's why I don't buy the hype of players stock going up or down because they ran well in their under wear.
relevant, especially when you're talking about a potential top ten pick.
What he did in pads in games is more relevant, but the combine and pro days certainly count. Otherwise why hold them, as someone said, at least for top players.
It's also relevant because it reinforced one of his weaknesses, namely drops. And if those drops are caused by a lack of concentration, then maybe that brings his commitment to his profession into question.
I've said before I'd pass on Ebron. The drops and the lack of blocking are too much for #12. I've also said that I think the Giants will take him if he's there, but this raises a few doubts. Reese absolutely has to nail this draft, starting of course with round one.
Doesn't exactly scream 1st rounder. I don't get all the hype surrounding Ebron. I really don't. I think a lot of people just watch some YouTube highlights and form a self educated opinion and no longer really watch football.
There's probably 10 people on BBI that watched more than 1 UNC game this year. I watch a lot of college ball, but I'll admit to not being one of those 10. People become experts in their own mind pretty quickly around draft time.
Disclaimer: As I have watched very little UNC and I recognize that predicting the draft is really hard, I have no opinion one way or the other on this player.
In college you are going against guys who likely will never sniff the NFL so even without an NFL skillset you can put up big numbers (see Dayne, Ron)
See Mike Mamula or Vernon Gholston....Workout warriors who didn't equate to jack Sh!t
Except in this case the film showing him dropping passes is supported by his Pro Day. You watch film of Mamula or Gholston and you could see the flaws. In this case you have a mediocre Pro Day backing up mediocre film. If film and Pro Day does not match I am going to reevaluate the player, but to totally ignore one is setting yourself up for failure
God dammit. This incident will make BBI even more annoying if
I don't care what Lande thinks really because he's turned into another Boylhart anymore and btw Kellen Winslow turned out to be a one year wonder and bust after that. I know what I've watched. Ebron is a lot of hype and a beneficiary of the Jimmy Graham afterglow effect now that everybody wants a pass catching TE. He's full of confidence and backs that up with inconsistency. His measurables don't fully match the extreme hype either as shown at the combine.
Ebron is a very very risky pick. And I don't think the Jimmy Graham reward comparison outweighs that. We can find a terrific TE who can be productive for us in the draft in other rounds and address more premium value positions earlier.
because picking Tight Ends with your first pick while you have holes at premium money positions is lame.
Which premium money positions do you think we have holes at?
DE, WR, DT, OT.
I don't consider any of those "holes" -- we have bodies at each position and some questions about some of the players. Could we use better depth and better talent? Absolutely.
There have been reports that he has some character issues (more related to ego/personality than violence, drugs, or alcohol) and I think there is some degree of correlation between concentration lapses and character. It's not a direct correlation, but you can see how a lack of character would play into poor concentration.
1st I like like to say He's going to be a good Pro
A pheonominal combine where he ran the fastest 40 time ever for a DT...demonstrated beast type strenght...pheonominal senior bowl...and outrageous production that was demonstrated on film despite the fact he was the only DL on the Pittsburg team and consistently faced double and triple teaming...I hope the Giants draft Donald
A pheonominal combine where he ran the fastest 40 time ever for a DT...demonstrated beast type strenght...pheonominal senior bowl...and outrageous production that was demonstrated on film despite the fact he was the only DL on the Pittsburg team and consistently faced double and triple teaming...I hope the Giants draft Donald
I think you could get him at 12 and still find a very good fit at TE in rounds 2-3.
A pheonominal combine where he ran the fastest 40 time ever for a DT...demonstrated beast type strenght...pheonominal senior bowl...and outrageous production that was demonstrated on film despite the fact he was the only DL on the Pittsburg team and consistently faced double and triple teaming...I hope the Giants draft Donald
I think you could get him at 12 and still find a very good fit at TE in rounds 2-3.
Screw that! I don't want a damn DT in round 1. God no. We will see what happens with Lewan, but I hope it clears because I like what Lewan brings to the table. I also like Martin too and his versatility. And of course Ebron,Gilbert, and last Evans.
Somebody please explain to me why Ebron is considered a 1st round pick
He doesn't show special athleticism. His play on the field is mediocre. He drops passes. Is reported to have a diva like attitude. Doesn't block. Isn't particularly big or strong. What exactly does he bring to the table?
We have three DEs: Kiwi, who's 31, and coming off a horrible year. JPP, who's already had back surgery and is nursing a bad shoulder, and Moore, who suffered through a shoulder injury all year long (which no doubt affected his development), and had surgery to correct it in January. There's a hole at DE big enough to drive a truck through.
We have three DTs: Hankins, who's replacing Joseph, is a young kid with a lot promise. But Jenkins is 33, and hardly a long-term solution. Kuhn is already 28, and what we get out of him is anybody's guess. "Hole" lotta questions there.
We have one proven WR - Victor Cruz - and a "hole" shitload of question marks.
OT...two words: Will Beatty.
TE: Fells, Robinson, and Donnell. Arguably the worst TE corps in the league. Still no reason to spend a first-round pick on one. So Ebron is the best TE in the draft. Big deal. Is he that much better than Amaro, Fiedorowicz, ASF, or Jensen, so much so that he's worth the 12th pick in the draft, and at the cost of sacrificing a premium pick at those other positions? I don't think so, but, admittedly, that's just me.
Klaatu I think the point being made is while the positions you are
talking about have questions marks and depth issues they all have guys you can peg as day one starters. The giants must find out fast what they have with a lot of these guys so there is no sense in burying a DT or DE on the depth chart when the Giants have zero starting TEs.
A TE can add major day 1 value to an offense desperately in need of more physicality and weapons. I don't know if EBron is the guy but if the Giants take him I think he is the guy.
Ebron vs 2nd/3rd rd TE, Evans vs 2nd/3rd WR, Lewan/Martin vs 2nd/3rd rd OL or Donald vs 2nd/3rd rd DT/pass rusher.....for me, the answer is Donald all day long as he fills just as big of a need and he actually fills two needs with one pick.
We have three DEs: Kiwi, who's 31, and coming off a horrible year. JPP, who's already had back surgery and is nursing a bad shoulder, and Moore, who suffered through a shoulder injury all year long (which no doubt affected his development), and had surgery to correct it in January. There's a hole at DE big enough to drive a truck through.
JPP and Kiwi are starters. A rookie isn't going to come in and unseat either of them. Could we use an upgrade of talent? Certainly.
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We have three DTs: Hankins, who's replacing Joseph, is a young kid with a lot promise. But Jenkins is 33, and hardly a long-term solution. Kuhn is already 28, and what we get out of him is anybody's guess. "Hole" lotta questions there.
Hankins and Jenkins are seen as starters. I agree we need another guy in the rotation.
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We have one proven WR - Victor Cruz - and a "hole" shitload of question marks.
Agreed, although I'd argue that if healthy, Manningham has proven to be a pretty formidable player for us in the past. Jernigan finally flashed. Randle is inconsistent but also also flashed. We have enough to work with, but I'm sure we'll draft a WR as the pool is very large in this draft.
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OT...two words: Will Beatty.
Yeah, the guy who was arguably our most consistent/best performing OL for the 2 seasons prior to last? I'm not giving up on him. Absolutely we need a swing tackle and if the value is there in the draft, I have no problems with us drafting somebody as insurance against Beatty.
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TE: Fells, Robinson, and Donnell. Arguably the worst TE corps in the league. Still no reason to spend a first-round pick on one. So Ebron is the best TE in the draft. Big deal. Is he that much better than Amaro, Fiedorowicz, ASF, or Jensen, so much so that he's worth the 12th pick in the draft, and at the cost of sacrificing a premium pick at those other positions? I don't think so, but, admittedly, that's just me.
It's a great question. I don't know that he is worth the 12th pick in the draft, but like you mentioned, he is considered the best TE in this draft. TE is absolutely our biggest hole at this point. And while people love to say it's not a premium position, a killer TE can change a lot about your offense. Is Ebron that killer TE? I don't know. But I won't be upset either way.
We didn't have a starting TE in the Spring of 2011, either..
Until a kid from the PS made the most of an opportunity that came his way and helped us win a championship.
Also, and it's a clich, I know, but the draft isn't only about this year, although I wouldn't put it past Jerry Reese to see TE as our biggest immediate need and draft accordingly in the 1st round. That's been his M.O. for the past seven years.
I just don't see what Ebron brings to the table that other TE prospects don't, outside of a marginal increase in straight-line speed? For the life of me, I just don't see why he's worth the 12th pick in this draft? But, as I said, that's just me.
To tell me which of Ebron's games (3 years!) he's actually sat down and analyzed. Then he can tell me why a dominant force such as Eric Ebron managed only a meager 8 TDs total in those 3 years.
The pro days arent the end all be all. Neither is the combine. They're both tools used by teams to project a player's success at the next level. There were already questions about his size, hands and abiity to block. Nothing he's done at either event have put those questions to rest. That's why I don't think we should select him at 12 and that's why I think he's going to go somewhere in the 15-25 range.
Drops to us and we take Amaro or Niklas in the 2nd. I think Ebron will be a good NFL TE but maddeningly inconsistent very much like Vernon Davis who is a very good player but has had up and down years
We have no one but unproven guys there. It's not like we have average talent there. Anyone on offense would be considered a great thing from OL, to TE, to WR to even RB. We have Jennings who we signed, but Wilson is a question mark. Are we going to put Cox in the mix?
Why go TE or WR in the 1st round and Eli is still being chased around in the pocket??..
Protect the franchise first, then let him play with toys after..
Why does the draft end in round 1? For the record, I do agree. I went Lewan or Martin in round 1. Again though, we can go OL in round 2 with Gabe Jackson or the UCLA guard. It's not like the draft ends.
If the guy isn't that good, drafting him at 12 because of a "need' is a bad business decision..
The guy is good. It's not like we are debating over an undrafted FA. And people think he is a first round guy VS others who think he won't be drafted. The guy is a first round talent and the question is he worth it at 12? That's the question.
I do think he can be a highly productive TE for us. I am sure people who think otherwise. If it's up to me I want Lewan or Martin and grab Gabe Jackson or the UCLA guard. Two OL round 1 and 2 would make me very, very happy.
However having said that, if we don't go OL, then I want Ebron to be the guy. I think he would be another Shockey or better for us.
My bad then..You have been very outspoken about Ebron and i don't think he's gong in the 2nd round..
Or are you saying get Ebron in the first and then go OL in the 2nd?..
If so, what is the dropoff between Martin/Lewan then this guy Jackson?..I ask that because i'm don't watch colelge football so i don't know who these guys are, but i would i think, trying to target a specific guy in the 2nd round would be pretty risky, considering you have no idea what can happen in the next 32 picks..
My bad then..You have been very outspoken about Ebron and i don't think he's gong in the 2nd round..
Or are you saying get Ebron in the first and then go OL in the 2nd?..
If so, what is the dropoff between Martin/Lewan then this guy Jackson?..I ask that because i'm don't watch colelge football so i don't know who these guys are, but i would i think, trying to target a specific guy in the 2nd round would be pretty risky, considering you have no idea what can happen in the next 32 picks..
No worries. Yes, I very much have been outspoken for him. The difference is not as my first option. My first option has always been Lewan or Martin. It will be always Lewan or Martin until draft day. If by chance both guys are gone, then it's Ebron, Gilbert and then Evans. That's what I like so far. Like I said though, Lewan and Martin are the options for the 12 overall pick.
I do like Ebron and driving the wagon for him. However, the difference is not before Lewan or Martin. If both are gone, then Ebron all the way for me AND then we can go Gabe Jackson or ULCA guard in round 2.
I think Gabe Jackson would be a hell of a guard for us. Basically our OL stinks that any solid prospect would just add to our OL strength as a unit.
on the same level as OL, then WR, TE...in that order. If you think back to JPP's monster year, he had Tuck, Osi and a better Kiwi....as it stands now, there's Moore (unknown with injury ??), Jenkins (very good but older), and a diminished Kiwi PLUS a surgically repaired back. I don't care how many DB's are back there, they need to address this or they're playing russian roulette with the heart of the Defense.
What do you like about him exactly that would make him a 1st round pick?
He's a good athlete, not great.
His performance on the field is good, not great. If you factor in his blocking, it is average to below average.
I understand taking a flyer on a great athlete, but he isn't. I understand taking a guy because he is too productive to ignore, Ebron doesn't qualify there either. He seems more like a guy that you would think about taking in the 4th based on potential, how did he ever get elevated to first round status?
Hope Evans drops to the Giants. If the whole reason people want Ebron is to get a better weapon out on the field, than why not draft Evans instead? He's faster, taller, jumps higher and just has better hands. It's not like they don't need a WR too and Evans will provide a bigger mismatch against CBs than Ebron will be against LBs and Safeties.
Just because the Giants have a bigger hole a TE, it doesn't mean they have to take the best TE when he obviously has inconsistent hands and isn't a better prospect a player of another position of need. The Combination of Cruz, Randle, and Evans is better than Cruz, Randle, and Ebron.
To me there's a bigger gap between the 3rd best WR in this draft and the 2nd TE. Evans will become the Giants #1 WR. There are only 2 other WRs in this draft whith that type of height, and Evans is much better than both (Benjamin, Coleman). Give me Evans in the 1st and Niklas in the 2nd (6',5" & 6',7'). Ebron might be better than Niklas in between the 20 yrd lines, but once you get inside the redzone, I'd much rather have that 6',7" frame.
Did Ebron participate in the athletic testing...or stand on his Combine numbers which frankly were less impressive than I expected...did he run a 40? or other drills? Any info out there on this?
However having said that, if we don't go OL, then I want Ebron to be the guy. I think he would be another Shockey or better for us.
I doubt it. He hasn't learned to block. He'd be sort of like a WR with the Giants. They need a TE that also block.
You can coach that. Also, I want a pass catching TE in our system. In an era where these TEs are getting used like WRs, I hope we get a pass catching TE that can be utilized more AND differently than before.
Intransigency....
We have graphic incontrovertible in your face proof : you can win with ordinary at TE; you can win with ordinary at LB; you can not win with ordinary lines.
We draft either Lewan or Donald, anything else is incompetent , Reese is anything buy incompetent.
Intransigency....
We have graphic incontrovertible in your face proof : you can win with ordinary at TE; you can win with ordinary at LB; you can not win with ordinary lines.
We draft either Lewan or Donald, anything else is incompetent , Reese is anything buy incompetent.
...he has shown to have below average hands both on the field and in drills. That doesn't really qualify as a "pass catching" TE.
He makes big plays. Shockey dropped balls too, one big one which was unforgivable was the niners playoff game in the endzone. He had drops, but he still was a play maker. We have Victor Cruz, who in 2012, was 2nd in the league in drops. So let's not act like our players don't drop balls. They have and have in key spots. The thing we have to ask is if these things can be fixed?
Our new OC was a TE coach. He and our TE coach will get together and deem, is Ebron's flaws fixable? Where within this scheme do they see Ebron? Same can be asked about Reese and Ross. How do they see Ebron? If they deem him to have flaws that can't be fixed, then I am fine with them passing. Why draft a player who can't be fixed?
A remote thrower at 12. Would rather take highest rated WR still on board then a TE. I think somebody the Giants love will drop to 12 and it won't be Mr. Softee.
there's better value for a Giants type TE in the 2nd or 3rd round. Ebron's got outstanding skills for a TE, but he doesn't profess to take pride in his blocking and pass pro skills. Troy NIklas is a Giants TE. Does he have Ebron's receiving skills? Heck no... well, maybe he'll drop less passes. But what Niklas has all over Ebron is pass protection / blocking proficiency. Niklas has been referred to by pro scouts as the best blocking TE in college today. A real Giants TE in that regard is similar to a Giants RB... you can't block / pass pro? You don't see the field. What killed the Giants' offense the most in 2013 wasn't a lack of receiving weapons, but an across the board drop off in blocking and pass pro. From the O-line to the RB to the TE... putrid. Niklas over Ebron. Block, pass protect, and move the chains underneath. Ebron's a WR in TE clothing... who isn't a proficient blocker, and drops passes.
Ebron's fluidity and smoothness are getting overlooked
when people say that he isn't even an overly impressive athlete because of his combine numbers.
Fluidity goes beyond simple size/speed numbers. Take a look at JPP's combine numbers, they are extremely average. But he is just so fluid and agile with his movement that I'd consider him a freak athlete when healthy.
Now I'm not comparing Ebron as an athlete to JPP (JPP's relative strength is on another level) but I feel like both Ebron and JPP are supremely athletic in ways that the combine doesn't measure.
Ebron is one of the smoothest route runners I've ever seen play the TE position in college at his size. He isn't the dynamic run/jump freak a guy like Jimmy Graham is but there is absolutely something unique and impressive about his fluidity.
Donald is my #1 option at 12 and Evans is my #2 option. At this moment I feel pretty comfortable about that. But after those 2 it becomes a little tougher to separate the prospects but right now I have Ebron as my #3 option and I'd take him if Donald/Evans weren't on the board.
RE: Ebron's fluidity and smoothness are getting overlooked
when people say that he isn't even an overly impressive athlete because of his combine numbers.
Fluidity goes beyond simple size/speed numbers. Take a look at JPP's combine numbers, they are extremely average. But he is just so fluid and agile with his movement that I'd consider him a freak athlete when healthy.
Now I'm not comparing Ebron as an athlete to JPP (JPP's relative strength is on another level) but I feel like both Ebron and JPP are supremely athletic in ways that the combine doesn't measure.
Ebron is one of the smoothest route runners I've ever seen play the TE position in college at his size. He isn't the dynamic run/jump freak a guy like Jimmy Graham is but there is absolutely something unique and impressive about his fluidity.
Donald is my #1 option at 12 and Evans is my #2 option. At this moment I feel pretty comfortable about that. But after those 2 it becomes a little tougher to separate the prospects but right now I have Ebron as my #3 option and I'd take him if Donald/Evans weren't on the board.
If Ebron is the JPP of tight ends, what is Adrian Robinson?
the comparison for that exact reason. But I think Ebron's athleticism is underrated if all you're going to look at is his combine numbers. Same thing can be said for JPP.
RE: Ebron's fluidity and smoothness are getting overlooked
when people say that he isn't even an overly impressive athlete because of his combine numbers.
Fluidity goes beyond simple size/speed numbers. Take a look at JPP's combine numbers, they are extremely average. But he is just so fluid and agile with his movement that I'd consider him a freak athlete when healthy.
Now I'm not comparing Ebron as an athlete to JPP (JPP's relative strength is on another level) but I feel like both Ebron and JPP are supremely athletic in ways that the combine doesn't measure.
Ebron is one of the smoothest route runners I've ever seen play the TE position in college at his size. He isn't the dynamic run/jump freak a guy like Jimmy Graham is but there is absolutely something unique and impressive about his fluidity.
Donald is my #1 option at 12 and Evans is my #2 option. At this moment I feel pretty comfortable about that. But after those 2 it becomes a little tougher to separate the prospects but right now I have Ebron as my #3 option and I'd take him if Donald/Evans weren't on the board.
...he has shown to have below average hands both on the field and in drills. That doesn't really qualify as a "pass catching" TE.
He makes big plays. Shockey dropped balls too, one big one which was unforgivable was the niners playoff game in the endzone. He had drops, but he still was a play maker. We have Victor Cruz, who in 2012, was 2nd in the league in drops. So let's not act like our players don't drop balls. They have and have in key spots. The thing we have to ask is if these things can be fixed?
Our new OC was a TE coach. He and our TE coach will get together and deem, is Ebron's flaws fixable? Where within this scheme do they see Ebron? Same can be asked about Reese and Ross. How do they see Ebron? If they deem him to have flaws that can't be fixed, then I am fine with them passing. Why draft a player who can't be fixed?
People forget Shockeys numbers in college wrrent amazing and not even close to Ebrons. What they saw was his desire toughness and his great fluidity in his route running.
Ebron is going to be a real good one and one of the few TEs over the last 5-6 years Id have no problem with in the first round
...I just don't see anything in Ebron. I doubt he gets a 2nd NFL contract. I'll admidt I am no expert on these things and I was wrong about both Dayne and Wheatley whe same thing about them. They both got new contracts after their first ones. So maybe he'll prove me wrong too and reach their level in the NFL.
A pheonominal combine where he ran the fastest 40 time ever for a DT...demonstrated beast type strenght...pheonominal senior bowl...and outrageous production that was demonstrated on film despite the fact he was the only DL on the Pittsburg team and consistently faced double and triple teaming...I hope the Giants draft Donald
Donald is my #1 guy too but Ebron Evans and Lee are nice consolation prizes. Dont hate Lewan either. This draft is LOADED.
Ebron: says he needs to continue working on the easy catches, but thinks he did well on the fundamentals #uncproday
12:12pm - 25 Mar 14
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The current administration has enough fumble/drop/tipped ball-INT issues to deal with. Why draft a potential problem when this organization has found very serviceable players to man the te position. He's a reach at 12 and a potential headache.
Mayock however said he looked very fluid running all routes.. WR routes.. TE routes.. and said he shows that he is a natural hands catcher.. also apparently he did a LOT of work blocking today.. one of the coaches basically had him playing as an OT..
so looks like a lot more went on than what was first reported.. I dont think him dropping two passes at his pro day makes him move up or down at all..
In his sophomore year ('01) in which Miami won the national championship, the Canes had Clinton Portis, Willis McGahee and Frank Gore in the backfield. Think about that for a second. They combined for over 2k rushing yards that year. Shockey led the team the team in receptions was second to Andre Johnson in TDs. He had almost as many TDs in '01 as Ebron had in three years. Shockey owned the red zone.
The Tarheels' gimmicky spread offense net 1k yards on the ground, half of which came from the QB. And despite that, Ebron managed only 8 career TDs. Shockey was the much better player at this stage of their respective careers. Not even close.
But I have to disagree with you about Ebron. He may be the equal of Shockey in physical ability, but no-way does he mix it up the way Jeremy did.
Short of Conrad Dobler (a lineman), have I never seen a man more hated by defenses. How many times did you see his helmet ripped off his head - plenty. Jeremy used to elbow tacklers in the earhole, and worse.
he certainly looks like he can make all the tough catches. If the coaches decide his drops are no concern than I won't second guess them.
I don't like the arguments being made for him though - which focus primarily on our need for a TE. I don't want the #12 pick overall to be a need pick. It HAS to be a value pick, and in this draft, we should be walking away with the biggest mismatch on the board. I don't personally think that is Ebron, but it might be.
What really sucks is passing on truly exceptional talent to get steady talent in a position of need, and I hope we don't do it. If we get steady talent then let us move back to get it so we can get plenty of it.
Usually the closer the draft gets, the more I get sold on players I wasnt considering previously. With Ebron, the more I read about him, the less I want him. Better than Jimmy Graham? Isnt Graham lke 6'6", runs 4.4 and has like a 40" vert? Ebron is not that. Lewan, Evans, Martin, Donald (in no particular order although I really think Evans benefits from Evans the most) or trade down.
he runs in the 4.5's.. Ebron is 6'4 but has very long arms.. his wingspan is about the same as someone 6'6 so he has a huge catching radius.. would I draft him @ 12.. probably not..
he seems to me from his interviews that he could be a prima donna in the making..
is the best comparison either. Shockey was definitely more physical, one of my concerns with Ebron is that he a little too finesse. Shockey was far from finesse. But at the same time I don't think Shockey was nearly as fluid as Ebron. Shockey was a guy who struggled to catch the ball and stay on his feet. It was fucking pathetic and a big reason why I never thought he was the best TE in the game like some fans. Ebron is a shit ton more coordinated and actually stays on his feet when he makes catches downfield.
And why are people pointing to Shockey's TD edge in college like that is the make or break stat for TEs? Shockey was apart of one of the great college teams of all-time, of course he was going to get more scoring chances than a guy like Ebron at UNC.
College
Shockey final yr: 40 catches -- 519 yards -- 13.0 YPC -- 7 TDs
Ebron final yr: 62 catches -- 973 yards -- 15.7 YPC -- 3 TDs
Why would you only look at TDs when Shockey played for the far more loaded offense? In terms of production Ebron was clearly ahead of Shockey in college. Now obviously because of that loaded offense Shockey had to do less work which is why there is such a big disparity between his production and Ebron's. But the claim that Shockey was a far better college player seems unfair.
Shockey was definitely tougher but Ebron definitely has his advantages over Shockey at the same point. He's a much smoother route runner for one.
I personally haves some qualms over Ebrons ability to consistently high point the ball and his hands but theres no doubt the talent is there. this is guy who should easily separate vs nfl lbs and has the athletic traits to easily smoke linebackers off the line. im not sure if his fineese is elite enough to make plays against nfl dbs alone, but as a TE, his movement skills are definitely special.
The giants have needs all over the place. They always mix need with BPA, especially in round 1 but they are likely to factor in 2nd and 3rd round depth at all the positions when determining who to draft. Maybe they have a "92" rated Tackle, a 91 rated WR and a 89 rated DT sitting there at 12 but there is more offensive tackle and WR depth in round 2-3-- they'd probably consider taking the DT there at 12.
What's the deepest position in this draft? Offensive guard? WR? What about offensive tackle? Is it top heavy or is there good 2nd round depth? That may tell us where NYG is headed in round 1. I'm back to thinking they take a DT or DE in round 1. Guard or tackle and WR in 2-3..
Who was good at catching balls but was absolutely helpless blocker in Myers.
I'm very sure Ebron is a lot more talented, but does his down-field exploits make up for Eli getting wompted, if he can't help block ?
But, there's more to blocking than helping out in pass protection, the running game is aided tremendously by a tight end that can block. This is especially true near the goal line.
When the defense has to account for a tight end that can deliver a blow (and not just concern themselves just as another pass catcher) it make a big difference, down there.
People are so desperate for a reliever type and it's beyond dumb. Gronk and Graham weren't first rounders.
There's also plenty of all pro WRs that weren't first rounders.
Of Watkins is there u run to the podium but why people try to shoehorn need picks is beyond me. It doesn't usually work.
Evans might be a top ten player in this draft. I dont think any of the three qbs are top ten players, but their position is valued as such that at least twowill be picked.
I would be very happy with him as the pick. But honestly this team has so many holes right now I'll basically be happy with whatever they pick because chances are it will be at a position of need. This year's draft could go so many different ways, big playmaker in the first, interior OLine in the second is the way I would like it to shape up.
This place would be almost unbearable if Ebron is the guy. I for one hope that he is. I am no expert, I didnt watch all his tape but the few games I have seen I like what I see in him. I think he will do well in the NFL.
is the best comparison either. Shockey was definitely more physical, one of my concerns with Ebron is that he a little too finesse. Shockey was far from finesse. But at the same time I don't think Shockey was nearly as fluid as Ebron. Shockey was a guy who struggled to catch the ball and stay on his feet. It was fucking pathetic and a big reason why I never thought he was the best TE in the game like some fans. Ebron is a shit ton more coordinated and actually stays on his feet when he makes catches downfield.
And why are people pointing to Shockey's TD edge in college like that is the make or break stat for TEs? Shockey was apart of one of the great college teams of all-time, of course he was going to get more scoring chances than a guy like Ebron at UNC.
College
Shockey final yr: 40 catches -- 519 yards -- 13.0 YPC -- 7 TDs
Ebron final yr: 62 catches -- 973 yards -- 15.7 YPC -- 3 TDs
Why would you only look at TDs when Shockey played for the far more loaded offense? In terms of production Ebron was clearly ahead of Shockey in college. Now obviously because of that loaded offense Shockey had to do less work which is why there is such a big disparity between his production and Ebron's. But the claim that Shockey was a far better college player seems unfair.
Shockey was definitely tougher but Ebron definitely has his advantages over Shockey at the same point. He's a much smoother route runner for one.
I didnt only point to TDs. I compared the offenses. In spite of Shockey's MIA team being a shit ton more rush-oriented, Shockey delivered in the red zone. UNC ran a spread. It should have, and did, give Ebron a lot more opportunities to touch the ball due to the nature of the offense. And yet, Ebron was a total non-factor in the red zone.
All that fluidity means dick if cant score more than 3 TDs a season.
Evans might be a top ten player in this draft. I dont think any of the three qbs are top ten players, but their position is valued as such that at least twowill be picked.
I'm sure so e may love the kid but I just don't see it. Now the difference between the 12th guy and the 20th may not even be enough worthwntilning but it sea to me that there are some who don't want to look at any warts w players they like because they are fixated on a position they think has to be upgraded. Doesn't meant the guy is a ad pick but passing on a stuff player because of perceived need is risky.
I think OL is a bigger need but I'd Warkins, Mack or another top tier guy falls due to. Run on QBs you get them. If all things are equal you can pick who u think will help the team more. IMO the people pushing th hardest for Ebron or Evans are sold on the. No matter what.
but by all accounts that's not true. This guy was the clear cut #1 TE that was expected to go in early-mid rd 1 and then he had a poor pro day and now he's not good. It's just ridiculous how much stock fans and pundits put into this stuff.
Someone tweeted that he dropped a couple passes and everyone just blew it out of proposition that he had a poor showing. Mayock who has a better track record than these armchair twitter scouts seems to think he had a great showing. "He catches the ball extremely well" - ( New Window )
Is that it isn't just about the numbers, it's about the preparation. It's about showing you know what it takes to be a pro. If you show up out of shape and unfocused, it's a poor reflection on your work ethic and level of commitment.
Was that the case with Ebron? I don't know. But perhaps the reason he hasn't wowed anyone is because he didn't put in the work. Maybe he wouldn't've dropped those two or three passes on his Pro Day if he had been out catching balls in the days leading up to it, making sure he was as sharp as could be for the big day.
RE: One overlooked aspect of the combine and pro days
Is that it isn't just about the numbers, it's about the preparation. It's about showing you know what it takes to be a pro. If you show up out of shape and unfocused, it's a poor reflection on your work ethic and level of commitment.
Was that the case with Ebron? I don't know. But perhaps the reason he hasn't wowed anyone is because he didn't put in the work. Maybe he wouldn't've dropped those two or three passes on his Pro Day if he had been out catching balls in the days leading up to it, making sure he was as sharp as could be for the big day.
It's pretty well known that Ebron has been training hard with EXOS , along with the other TE Amaro and Seferian-Jenkins for the combine and their pro days. Seems like your just making stuff up to knock the guys character at this point.
In comment 11587605 Modus Operandi said:
I didnt only point to TDs. I compared the offenses. In spite of Shockey's MIA team being a shit ton more rush-oriented, Shockey delivered in the red zone. UNC ran a spread. It should have, and did, give Ebron a lot more opportunities to touch the ball due to the nature of the offense. And yet, Ebron was a total non-factor in the red zone.
All that fluidity means dick if cant score more than 3 TDs a season.
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Just for the hell of it...
Klaatu : 8:37 am : link : reply
2001 Canes: 250.2 Pass YPG -- 47.2 YPG for Shockey -- 18.9% of yards to Shockey 2013 Heels: 277.4 Pass YPG -- 74.8 YPG for Ebron -- 26.9% of yards to Ebron 2013 TTech: 392.8 Pass YPG -- 104.0 YPG for Amaro -- 26.5% of yards to Amaro
Yes the Heels ran a more spread offense than the Canes and the Canes had a much better rushing attack, but let's not make it seem like their passing games are miles apart. That 2001 Miami team was the best team in modern college football history in my book and they also had a great passing attack on top of the great running game and great defense. UNC as a team only averaged 27.2 YPG passing more than Miami in '01. To say that Ebron's stats are inflated because of UNC is a little silly because UNC wasn't really that crazy when it came to putting up yards. On the otherhand, Texas Tech as always piled up a ton of passing yards that need to be taken into account when looking at Amaro's stats.
3 TDs is weak and I agree with that. But I think it's crazy that TDs are being focused on more than yards. Yards tell you a lot more about an individual player than touchdowns do. Saying Shockey was way ahead of Ebron because he scored more TDs is stupid. You can say Shockey was ahead for other reasons but not because of TDs.
Ebron was a much bigger part of his offense than Shockey and made more plays down the field than Shockey. He also has a chance to be a better route runner and playmaker down the field than Shockey ever was. He lacks Shockey's bulldog mentality and toughness but Ebron's a very good TE prospect.
Shockey dominated the NFL in year one. First team All-Pro as a rookie and he earned it. A first round TE does not have to match that' to avoid being labelled a waste.
It's been 12 years, but Shockey, who only started 11 college games, hit the NFL and was an instant impact player. He talent is severely underrated. He had HOF talent.
I don't know about Ebron matching that type of physical talent but he doesn't have to make this a good value. The drops, especially at the proday, don't concern me. He can make tough catches. His draft value is all about his movement moving up to the NFL. His workout numbers are not exceptional but he is fluid as Osi mentioned.
Is the guy a physical mismatch for nfl players? If he is, he'll be a fine pick at #12. A TE that causes matchup problems is huge for an offense. We need one.
I didn't make anything up. I even said "I don't know" to the question I posed about his preparation.
And just because he is training at some well-known place picked out by his agent doesn't mean he's training hard. Which was my point. You can only tell how hard a guy trained by how they perform at the combine and their pro days. If they don't live up to expectations, is it because they didn't train hard or because the expectations weren't realistic?
In Boylhart's bottomline on Ebron, he opens by saying...
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I really like this kids potential to play at the next level, but his work ethic scares me.
And closes by saying...
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I know one thing -- throwing money at a kid with this much talent who shows on the field to be as inconsistent in the details of playing his posiiton is a gamble. Then again, sometimes gambles pay off big time. You be the judge.
Shockey dominated the NFL in year one. First team All-Pro as a rookie and he earned it. A first round TE does not have to match that' to avoid being labelled a waste.
It's been 12 years, but Shockey, who only started 11 college games, hit the NFL and was an instant impact player. He talent is severely underrated. He had HOF talent.
I don't know about Ebron matching that type of physical talent but he doesn't have to make this a good value. The drops, especially at the proday, don't concern me. He can make tough catches. His draft value is all about his movement moving up to the NFL. His workout numbers are not exceptional but he is fluid as Osi mentioned.
Is the guy a physical mismatch for nfl players? If he is, he'll be a fine pick at #12. A TE that causes matchup problems is huge for an offense. We need one.
You don't pick a guy that high to be okay with being an average starter for his career. You pick a player that high to be difference maker. If he isn't one, then it is a waste.
player. The question is, in this new system, can Ben M. make Ebron, if drafted, a very productive player? That's when it comes down to assuming we don't go Lewan or Martin.
I'd say there is an enormous gap in between those 2 scenarios.
I guess some people want him to be some super TE prospect who is an amazing blocker, with 4.21 speed, who has excellent focus, amazing catch radius, and can pat his head and rub his tummy at the same time.
A TE that good won't even last to our pick. Also, no prospect is perfect be it this one or any other one. It comes down to can this prospect contribute at a high level? If Lewan checks out with his issues, I hope we can get him or Martin. Like Ebron, I feel they can contribute right away to the OL.
I'd say there is an enormous gap in between those 2 scenarios.
Don't you want to aim high?
If you spend the #12 overall pick, what is an acceptable return of investment? Shockey is expecting too much? Then what's enough? Greg Olsen? He's become a solid player.
I'd have real concerns picking a one-dimensional TE at 12, particularly since his production wasn't eye-catching anyway.
Who is the QB? Is he going to be an NFL pro? If so, what round talent is he? What kind of system did they run? More running system? Did they favor their WRs more?
They run a spread offense and throw a good bit. They ran more in 2012 when they had Gio Bernard. Renner's injury in 2013 probably didn't help Ebron's numbers.
I don't know....when I watched the Heels, Ebron never blew me away with his play. Perhaps I'm outdated this way, but if you take a TE that high he really needs to be special, and I didn't get that impression with Ebron.
RE: well, having watched a fair number of Heels games
They run a spread offense and throw a good bit. They ran more in 2012 when they had Gio Bernard. Renner's injury in 2013 probably didn't help Ebron's numbers.
I don't know....when I watched the Heels, Ebron never blew me away with his play. Perhaps I'm outdated this way, but if you take a TE that high he really needs to be special, and I didn't get that impression with Ebron.
I think from yesterdays Path to the Draft on UNC pro day, they showed the UNC QB. Renner right? Didn't he hurt his shoulder or something? Not sure who the back up was. But an injury to your starter impacts your stats.
Scouts and Gms will look at this when evaluating him. That's the thing though. Special will get taken top 10 or perhaps 6th like Vernon Davis and Kellen W. Jr. was in 2004. Special won't last to us. The trick is can we find someone who can be productive for us. Is that viable? If so, then cool. If not, then you pass.
People want special. It's a passing league and TE is the hype especially highly productive ones that rival WR production at the top end. Special won't last at 12 if that's the case.
He was having a very disappointing year anyway. Marquise Williams was the backup. They still threw a lot, and he played OK but with a horrid TD/INT ratio.
(I think there will be at least one) but I have confidence we'll get a good grab. There's enough talent at our need positions that even if Watkins and Evans both go before our pick (i doubt it) we'll end up with a really fine player.
This is a really, really good draft for WRs.
Someone's gonna take a Barr, a Dennard, a Bortles, a Clowney (who's fallen off the face of the draft btw) just a bit earlier than we all expect.
I didn't make anything up. I even said "I don't know" to the question I posed about his preparation.
And just because he is training at some well-known place picked out by his agent doesn't mean he's training hard. Which was my point. You can only tell how hard a guy trained by how they perform at the combine and their pro days. If they don't live up to expectations, is it because they didn't train hard or because the expectations weren't realistic?
In Boylhart's bottomline on Ebron, he opens by saying...
Quote:
I really like this kids potential to play at the next level, but his work ethic scares me.
And closes by saying...
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I know one thing -- throwing money at a kid with this much talent who shows on the field to be as inconsistent in the details of playing his posiiton is a gamble. Then again, sometimes gambles pay off big time. You be the judge.
Should've known a Boylhart post was coming , and whose expectations did he not live up to ? Mayock seemed plenty impressed.
Clowney has a good chance of going #1, if it isn't Bortles. If HOU doesn't get him, the Falcons will.
I don't mean that he won't be a high pick, just that nobody's even talking about him anymore as a top 12.
Clowney, Bortles/Bridgewater, Robinson are all going top 12. There's gonna be plenty on the plate when we come to dinner.
Oh my mistake.
I think Robinson, Bortles, Clowney and Watkins are sure fire top five picks. Mack could as well. The rest are toss-ups. Bridgewater will probably go to Minny or Cleveland.
3 years of film or a pro day?
film doesn't lie
pro days for the most part don't carry much weight
Follow
Had an 11.43% drop rate in 2013 RT @jjones9: Here at UNC Pro Day where TE Eric Ebron has registered three drops so far
The Combine and Pro Days are great but fans put entirely too much stock in them. From performance, to height/weight, arm length, the Wonderlic, etc.
just a crossing "t's" and dotting :I's"
What do you think holds more weight?
3 years of film or a pro day?
That's the point I'm trying to illustrate.
"Workout warriors" don't equate to success on the field
hows his nfl career going, multiple superbowls/greatest qb of all time im guessing
See Mike Mamula or Vernon Gholston....Workout warriors who didn't equate to jack Sh!t
hows his nfl career going, multiple superbowls/greatest qb of all time im guessing
Well, 32 Million Dollars without working up a sweat has to count for something ...
In fact, I was watching NLFN last night and they were discussing his occasional drops and saying it wasn't "bad hands" but just lapses in concentration because he makes a lot of difficult catches look easy.
I don't know how Ebron had a lapse of concentration on his Pro Day though.
Great, hope he drops all the way to our 2nd round pick...
Which premium money positions do you think we have holes at?
So this isn't a case of him looking great in pads, but not so great in gym shorts. It's a case of a guy who dropped a lot of catchable balls in college and then dropped a lot of catchable balls on his Pro Day.
As for JaMarcus Russell, he wasn't drafted #1 overall because of his Pro Day, he was drafted #1 overall based on his senior season and the Sugar Bowl.
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lit up his pro day and had one of the best ever
hows his nfl career going, multiple superbowls/greatest qb of all time im guessing
Well, 32 Million Dollars without working up a sweat has to count for something ...
Pretty sure he was sweating buckets just walking up the stairs to sign the contract.
I don't think the Giants should spend the 12th pick in the draft on a low-character athlete when there will be some equally talented prospects who have high character available with the same pick.
Ebron jokes with #Giants scout that he's in the groove now. "Don't turn your back now. Don't want to miss this"...then drops 3rd pass of day
As someone who has followed the draft a long time, writing off a player because of a performance in one game, an all-star game, or a pro day is just downright silly.
Russell was considered the #1 overall prospect in the draft long before his Pro Day.
BTW - what does this have to do with "character"?
He is the best tight-end prospect I have evaluated since Kellen Winslow Jr. Although many are projecting that teams like the Ravens and Jets will be interested in him, a number of NFL people I've spoken with recently believe he will be selected in the top 12, because he is a rare talent who could be better than Jimmy Graham.
I'm not even advocating taking him but some pretty respected people sure like him.
Those holes might not be as big as the hole at TE, but all three units could use some help.
I wouldn't be upset to have Ebron on the Giants, but I'd rather take a crack at a Offensive or Defensive Tackle, have that guy on a rookie deal for a few season before that 2nd contract money comes into play.
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because picking Tight Ends with your first pick while you have holes at premium money positions is lame.
Which premium money positions do you think we have holes at?
DE, WR, DT, OT.
I wonder this with the combine too. Why bother do it in under armor gear when you play football in pads? That's like someone wanting to drive Mac trucks, and practicing driving with a fucking hybrid. All you need is to see the tape of all players. Running around without a shirt like some players do or in shorts makes no sense because you play in pads and a uniform.
However, it's all part of the draft process I guess. That's why I hold more value to the eye in the sky, because it doesn't lie. That's why I don't buy the hype of players stock going up or down because they ran well in their under wear.
What he did in pads in games is more relevant, but the combine and pro days certainly count. Otherwise why hold them, as someone said, at least for top players.
It's also relevant because it reinforced one of his weaknesses, namely drops. And if those drops are caused by a lack of concentration, then maybe that brings his commitment to his profession into question.
I've said before I'd pass on Ebron. The drops and the lack of blocking are too much for #12. I've also said that I think the Giants will take him if he's there, but this raises a few doubts. Reese absolutely has to nail this draft, starting of course with round one.
There's probably 10 people on BBI that watched more than 1 UNC game this year. I watch a lot of college ball, but I'll admit to not being one of those 10. People become experts in their own mind pretty quickly around draft time.
Disclaimer: As I have watched very little UNC and I recognize that predicting the draft is really hard, I have no opinion one way or the other on this player.
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In college you are going against guys who likely will never sniff the NFL so even without an NFL skillset you can put up big numbers (see Dayne, Ron)
See Mike Mamula or Vernon Gholston....Workout warriors who didn't equate to jack Sh!t
Except in this case the film showing him dropping passes is supported by his Pro Day. You watch film of Mamula or Gholston and you could see the flaws. In this case you have a mediocre Pro Day backing up mediocre film. If film and Pro Day does not match I am going to reevaluate the player, but to totally ignore one is setting yourself up for failure
In Reese I Trust (especially in round 1)
Ebron is a very very risky pick. And I don't think the Jimmy Graham reward comparison outweighs that. We can find a terrific TE who can be productive for us in the draft in other rounds and address more premium value positions earlier.
We need to hit on this pick where it matters.
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In comment 11586254 Motley Blue said:
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because picking Tight Ends with your first pick while you have holes at premium money positions is lame.
Which premium money positions do you think we have holes at?
DE, WR, DT, OT.
I don't consider any of those "holes" -- we have bodies at each position and some questions about some of the players. Could we use better depth and better talent? Absolutely.
At TE, we have no one.
Everything matters!
And ignore the unimpressive play on the field
Then maybe he is worth taking in the first round. But I don't think that would be the best way to evaluate his skill as a player.
I think you could get him at 12 and still find a very good fit at TE in rounds 2-3.
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A pheonominal combine where he ran the fastest 40 time ever for a DT...demonstrated beast type strenght...pheonominal senior bowl...and outrageous production that was demonstrated on film despite the fact he was the only DL on the Pittsburg team and consistently faced double and triple teaming...I hope the Giants draft Donald
I think you could get him at 12 and still find a very good fit at TE in rounds 2-3.
Screw that! I don't want a damn DT in round 1. God no. We will see what happens with Lewan, but I hope it clears because I like what Lewan brings to the table. I also like Martin too and his versatility. And of course Ebron,Gilbert, and last Evans.
We have three DEs: Kiwi, who's 31, and coming off a horrible year. JPP, who's already had back surgery and is nursing a bad shoulder, and Moore, who suffered through a shoulder injury all year long (which no doubt affected his development), and had surgery to correct it in January. There's a hole at DE big enough to drive a truck through.
We have three DTs: Hankins, who's replacing Joseph, is a young kid with a lot promise. But Jenkins is 33, and hardly a long-term solution. Kuhn is already 28, and what we get out of him is anybody's guess. "Hole" lotta questions there.
We have one proven WR - Victor Cruz - and a "hole" shitload of question marks.
OT...two words: Will Beatty.
TE: Fells, Robinson, and Donnell. Arguably the worst TE corps in the league. Still no reason to spend a first-round pick on one. So Ebron is the best TE in the draft. Big deal. Is he that much better than Amaro, Fiedorowicz, ASF, or Jensen, so much so that he's worth the 12th pick in the draft, and at the cost of sacrificing a premium pick at those other positions? I don't think so, but, admittedly, that's just me.
A TE can add major day 1 value to an offense desperately in need of more physicality and weapons. I don't know if EBron is the guy but if the Giants take him I think he is the guy.
Ebron vs 2nd/3rd rd TE, Evans vs 2nd/3rd WR, Lewan/Martin vs 2nd/3rd rd OL or Donald vs 2nd/3rd rd DT/pass rusher.....for me, the answer is Donald all day long as he fills just as big of a need and he actually fills two needs with one pick.
JPP and Kiwi are starters. A rookie isn't going to come in and unseat either of them. Could we use an upgrade of talent? Certainly.
Hankins and Jenkins are seen as starters. I agree we need another guy in the rotation.
Agreed, although I'd argue that if healthy, Manningham has proven to be a pretty formidable player for us in the past. Jernigan finally flashed. Randle is inconsistent but also also flashed. We have enough to work with, but I'm sure we'll draft a WR as the pool is very large in this draft.
Yeah, the guy who was arguably our most consistent/best performing OL for the 2 seasons prior to last? I'm not giving up on him. Absolutely we need a swing tackle and if the value is there in the draft, I have no problems with us drafting somebody as insurance against Beatty.
It's a great question. I don't know that he is worth the 12th pick in the draft, but like you mentioned, he is considered the best TE in this draft. TE is absolutely our biggest hole at this point. And while people love to say it's not a premium position, a killer TE can change a lot about your offense. Is Ebron that killer TE? I don't know. But I won't be upset either way.
Also, and it's a clich, I know, but the draft isn't only about this year, although I wouldn't put it past Jerry Reese to see TE as our biggest immediate need and draft accordingly in the 1st round. That's been his M.O. for the past seven years.
I just don't see what Ebron brings to the table that other TE prospects don't, outside of a marginal increase in straight-line speed? For the life of me, I just don't see why he's worth the 12th pick in this draft? But, as I said, that's just me.
The pro days arent the end all be all. Neither is the combine. They're both tools used by teams to project a player's success at the next level. There were already questions about his size, hands and abiity to block. Nothing he's done at either event have put those questions to rest. That's why I don't think we should select him at 12 and that's why I think he's going to go somewhere in the 15-25 range.
Bingo! Give that man a cigar.
Protect the franchise first, then let him play with toys after..
Protect the franchise first, then let him play with toys after..
Why does the draft end in round 1? For the record, I do agree. I went Lewan or Martin in round 1. Again though, we can go OL in round 2 with Gabe Jackson or the UCLA guard. It's not like the draft ends.
The guy is good. It's not like we are debating over an undrafted FA. And people think he is a first round guy VS others who think he won't be drafted. The guy is a first round talent and the question is he worth it at 12? That's the question.
I do think he can be a highly productive TE for us. I am sure people who think otherwise. If it's up to me I want Lewan or Martin and grab Gabe Jackson or the UCLA guard. Two OL round 1 and 2 would make me very, very happy.
However having said that, if we don't go OL, then I want Ebron to be the guy. I think he would be another Shockey or better for us.
Or are you saying get Ebron in the first and then go OL in the 2nd?..
If so, what is the dropoff between Martin/Lewan then this guy Jackson?..I ask that because i'm don't watch colelge football so i don't know who these guys are, but i would i think, trying to target a specific guy in the 2nd round would be pretty risky, considering you have no idea what can happen in the next 32 picks..
Or are you saying get Ebron in the first and then go OL in the 2nd?..
If so, what is the dropoff between Martin/Lewan then this guy Jackson?..I ask that because i'm don't watch colelge football so i don't know who these guys are, but i would i think, trying to target a specific guy in the 2nd round would be pretty risky, considering you have no idea what can happen in the next 32 picks..
No worries. Yes, I very much have been outspoken for him. The difference is not as my first option. My first option has always been Lewan or Martin. It will be always Lewan or Martin until draft day. If by chance both guys are gone, then it's Ebron, Gilbert and then Evans. That's what I like so far. Like I said though, Lewan and Martin are the options for the 12 overall pick.
I do like Ebron and driving the wagon for him. However, the difference is not before Lewan or Martin. If both are gone, then Ebron all the way for me AND then we can go Gabe Jackson or ULCA guard in round 2.
I think Gabe Jackson would be a hell of a guard for us. Basically our OL stinks that any solid prospect would just add to our OL strength as a unit.
He's a good athlete, not great.
His performance on the field is good, not great. If you factor in his blocking, it is average to below average.
I understand taking a flyer on a great athlete, but he isn't. I understand taking a guy because he is too productive to ignore, Ebron doesn't qualify there either. He seems more like a guy that you would think about taking in the 4th based on potential, how did he ever get elevated to first round status?
Just because the Giants have a bigger hole a TE, it doesn't mean they have to take the best TE when he obviously has inconsistent hands and isn't a better prospect a player of another position of need. The Combination of Cruz, Randle, and Evans is better than Cruz, Randle, and Ebron.
To me there's a bigger gap between the 3rd best WR in this draft and the 2nd TE. Evans will become the Giants #1 WR. There are only 2 other WRs in this draft whith that type of height, and Evans is much better than both (Benjamin, Coleman). Give me Evans in the 1st and Niklas in the 2nd (6',5" & 6',7'). Ebron might be better than Niklas in between the 20 yrd lines, but once you get inside the redzone, I'd much rather have that 6',7" frame.
However having said that, if we don't go OL, then I want Ebron to be the guy. I think he would be another Shockey or better for us.
I doubt it. He hasn't learned to block. He'd be sort of like a WR with the Giants. They need a TE that also block.
The Miami game impressed me, even though that question wasn't directed towards me I know
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However having said that, if we don't go OL, then I want Ebron to be the guy. I think he would be another Shockey or better for us.
I doubt it. He hasn't learned to block. He'd be sort of like a WR with the Giants. They need a TE that also block.
You can coach that. Also, I want a pass catching TE in our system. In an era where these TEs are getting used like WRs, I hope we get a pass catching TE that can be utilized more AND differently than before.
We have graphic incontrovertible in your face proof : you can win with ordinary at TE; you can win with ordinary at LB; you can not win with ordinary lines.
We draft either Lewan or Donald, anything else is incompetent , Reese is anything buy incompetent.
We have graphic incontrovertible in your face proof : you can win with ordinary at TE; you can win with ordinary at LB; you can not win with ordinary lines.
We draft either Lewan or Donald, anything else is incompetent , Reese is anything buy incompetent.
He makes big plays. Shockey dropped balls too, one big one which was unforgivable was the niners playoff game in the endzone. He had drops, but he still was a play maker. We have Victor Cruz, who in 2012, was 2nd in the league in drops. So let's not act like our players don't drop balls. They have and have in key spots. The thing we have to ask is if these things can be fixed?
Our new OC was a TE coach. He and our TE coach will get together and deem, is Ebron's flaws fixable? Where within this scheme do they see Ebron? Same can be asked about Reese and Ross. How do they see Ebron? If they deem him to have flaws that can't be fixed, then I am fine with them passing. Why draft a player who can't be fixed?
Fluidity goes beyond simple size/speed numbers. Take a look at JPP's combine numbers, they are extremely average. But he is just so fluid and agile with his movement that I'd consider him a freak athlete when healthy.
Now I'm not comparing Ebron as an athlete to JPP (JPP's relative strength is on another level) but I feel like both Ebron and JPP are supremely athletic in ways that the combine doesn't measure.
Ebron is one of the smoothest route runners I've ever seen play the TE position in college at his size. He isn't the dynamic run/jump freak a guy like Jimmy Graham is but there is absolutely something unique and impressive about his fluidity.
Donald is my #1 option at 12 and Evans is my #2 option. At this moment I feel pretty comfortable about that. But after those 2 it becomes a little tougher to separate the prospects but right now I have Ebron as my #3 option and I'd take him if Donald/Evans weren't on the board.
Fluidity goes beyond simple size/speed numbers. Take a look at JPP's combine numbers, they are extremely average. But he is just so fluid and agile with his movement that I'd consider him a freak athlete when healthy.
Now I'm not comparing Ebron as an athlete to JPP (JPP's relative strength is on another level) but I feel like both Ebron and JPP are supremely athletic in ways that the combine doesn't measure.
Ebron is one of the smoothest route runners I've ever seen play the TE position in college at his size. He isn't the dynamic run/jump freak a guy like Jimmy Graham is but there is absolutely something unique and impressive about his fluidity.
Donald is my #1 option at 12 and Evans is my #2 option. At this moment I feel pretty comfortable about that. But after those 2 it becomes a little tougher to separate the prospects but right now I have Ebron as my #3 option and I'd take him if Donald/Evans weren't on the board.
If Ebron is the JPP of tight ends, what is Adrian Robinson?
Fluidity goes beyond simple size/speed numbers. Take a look at JPP's combine numbers, they are extremely average. But he is just so fluid and agile with his movement that I'd consider him a freak athlete when healthy.
Now I'm not comparing Ebron as an athlete to JPP (JPP's relative strength is on another level) but I feel like both Ebron and JPP are supremely athletic in ways that the combine doesn't measure.
Ebron is one of the smoothest route runners I've ever seen play the TE position in college at his size. He isn't the dynamic run/jump freak a guy like Jimmy Graham is but there is absolutely something unique and impressive about his fluidity.
Donald is my #1 option at 12 and Evans is my #2 option. At this moment I feel pretty comfortable about that. But after those 2 it becomes a little tougher to separate the prospects but right now I have Ebron as my #3 option and I'd take him if Donald/Evans weren't on the board.
Very well said Osi
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...he has shown to have below average hands both on the field and in drills. That doesn't really qualify as a "pass catching" TE.
He makes big plays. Shockey dropped balls too, one big one which was unforgivable was the niners playoff game in the endzone. He had drops, but he still was a play maker. We have Victor Cruz, who in 2012, was 2nd in the league in drops. So let's not act like our players don't drop balls. They have and have in key spots. The thing we have to ask is if these things can be fixed?
Our new OC was a TE coach. He and our TE coach will get together and deem, is Ebron's flaws fixable? Where within this scheme do they see Ebron? Same can be asked about Reese and Ross. How do they see Ebron? If they deem him to have flaws that can't be fixed, then I am fine with them passing. Why draft a player who can't be fixed?
People forget Shockeys numbers in college wrrent amazing and not even close to Ebrons. What they saw was his desire toughness and his great fluidity in his route running.
Ebron is going to be a real good one and one of the few TEs over the last 5-6 years Id have no problem with in the first round
Donald is my #1 guy too but Ebron Evans and Lee are nice consolation prizes. Dont hate Lewan either. This draft is LOADED.
12:12pm - 25 Mar 14
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The current administration has enough fumble/drop/tipped ball-INT issues to deal with. Why draft a potential problem when this organization has found very serviceable players to man the te position. He's a reach at 12 and a potential headache.
Stop the drops!
Link - ( New Window )
so looks like a lot more went on than what was first reported.. I dont think him dropping two passes at his pro day makes him move up or down at all..
The Tarheels' gimmicky spread offense net 1k yards on the ground, half of which came from the QB. And despite that, Ebron managed only 8 career TDs. Shockey was the much better player at this stage of their respective careers. Not even close.
Short of Conrad Dobler (a lineman), have I never seen a man more hated by defenses. How many times did you see his helmet ripped off his head - plenty. Jeremy used to elbow tacklers in the earhole, and worse.
Ebron is Bambi compared to Shockey.
I don't like the arguments being made for him though - which focus primarily on our need for a TE. I don't want the #12 pick overall to be a need pick. It HAS to be a value pick, and in this draft, we should be walking away with the biggest mismatch on the board. I don't personally think that is Ebron, but it might be.
What really sucks is passing on truly exceptional talent to get steady talent in a position of need, and I hope we don't do it. If we get steady talent then let us move back to get it so we can get plenty of it.
he seems to me from his interviews that he could be a prima donna in the making..
And why are people pointing to Shockey's TD edge in college like that is the make or break stat for TEs? Shockey was apart of one of the great college teams of all-time, of course he was going to get more scoring chances than a guy like Ebron at UNC.
College
Shockey final yr: 40 catches -- 519 yards -- 13.0 YPC -- 7 TDs
Ebron final yr: 62 catches -- 973 yards -- 15.7 YPC -- 3 TDs
Why would you only look at TDs when Shockey played for the far more loaded offense? In terms of production Ebron was clearly ahead of Shockey in college. Now obviously because of that loaded offense Shockey had to do less work which is why there is such a big disparity between his production and Ebron's. But the claim that Shockey was a far better college player seems unfair.
Shockey was definitely tougher but Ebron definitely has his advantages over Shockey at the same point. He's a much smoother route runner for one.
What's the deepest position in this draft? Offensive guard? WR? What about offensive tackle? Is it top heavy or is there good 2nd round depth? That may tell us where NYG is headed in round 1. I'm back to thinking they take a DT or DE in round 1. Guard or tackle and WR in 2-3..
I'm very sure Ebron is a lot more talented, but does his down-field exploits make up for Eli getting wompted, if he can't help block ?
But, there's more to blocking than helping out in pass protection, the running game is aided tremendously by a tight end that can block. This is especially true near the goal line.
When the defense has to account for a tight end that can deliver a blow (and not just concern themselves just as another pass catcher) it make a big difference, down there.
There's also plenty of all pro WRs that weren't first rounders.
Of Watkins is there u run to the podium but why people try to shoehorn need picks is beyond me. It doesn't usually work.
You watch him and you can tell he's a very good athlete.
This place would be almost unbearable if Ebron is the guy. I for one hope that he is. I am no expert, I didnt watch all his tape but the few games I have seen I like what I see in him. I think he will do well in the NFL.
And why are people pointing to Shockey's TD edge in college like that is the make or break stat for TEs? Shockey was apart of one of the great college teams of all-time, of course he was going to get more scoring chances than a guy like Ebron at UNC.
College
Shockey final yr: 40 catches -- 519 yards -- 13.0 YPC -- 7 TDs
Ebron final yr: 62 catches -- 973 yards -- 15.7 YPC -- 3 TDs
Why would you only look at TDs when Shockey played for the far more loaded offense? In terms of production Ebron was clearly ahead of Shockey in college. Now obviously because of that loaded offense Shockey had to do less work which is why there is such a big disparity between his production and Ebron's. But the claim that Shockey was a far better college player seems unfair.
Shockey was definitely tougher but Ebron definitely has his advantages over Shockey at the same point. He's a much smoother route runner for one.
I didnt only point to TDs. I compared the offenses. In spite of Shockey's MIA team being a shit ton more rush-oriented, Shockey delivered in the red zone. UNC ran a spread. It should have, and did, give Ebron a lot more opportunities to touch the ball due to the nature of the offense. And yet, Ebron was a total non-factor in the red zone.
All that fluidity means dick if cant score more than 3 TDs a season.
I'm sure so e may love the kid but I just don't see it. Now the difference between the 12th guy and the 20th may not even be enough worthwntilning but it sea to me that there are some who don't want to look at any warts w players they like because they are fixated on a position they think has to be upgraded. Doesn't meant the guy is a ad pick but passing on a stuff player because of perceived need is risky.
I think OL is a bigger need but I'd Warkins, Mack or another top tier guy falls due to. Run on QBs you get them. If all things are equal you can pick who u think will help the team more. IMO the people pushing th hardest for Ebron or Evans are sold on the. No matter what.
Jace Amaro 2013: 106 receptions, 1352 yards, 12.8 ypc, 7 TDs.
"He catches the ball extremely well" - ( New Window )
Was that the case with Ebron? I don't know. But perhaps the reason he hasn't wowed anyone is because he didn't put in the work. Maybe he wouldn't've dropped those two or three passes on his Pro Day if he had been out catching balls in the days leading up to it, making sure he was as sharp as could be for the big day.
Was that the case with Ebron? I don't know. But perhaps the reason he hasn't wowed anyone is because he didn't put in the work. Maybe he wouldn't've dropped those two or three passes on his Pro Day if he had been out catching balls in the days leading up to it, making sure he was as sharp as could be for the big day.
It's pretty well known that Ebron has been training hard with EXOS , along with the other TE Amaro and Seferian-Jenkins for the combine and their pro days. Seems like your just making stuff up to knock the guys character at this point.
I didnt only point to TDs. I compared the offenses. In spite of Shockey's MIA team being a shit ton more rush-oriented, Shockey delivered in the red zone. UNC ran a spread. It should have, and did, give Ebron a lot more opportunities to touch the ball due to the nature of the offense. And yet, Ebron was a total non-factor in the red zone.
All that fluidity means dick if cant score more than 3 TDs a season.
Klaatu : 8:37 am : link : reply
Eric Ebron 2013: 62 receptions, 973 yards, 15.7 ypc, 3 TDs.
Jace Amaro 2013: 106 receptions, 1352 yards, 12.8 ypc, 7 TDs.
2001 Canes: 250.2 Pass YPG -- 47.2 YPG for Shockey -- 18.9% of yards to Shockey
2013 Heels: 277.4 Pass YPG -- 74.8 YPG for Ebron -- 26.9% of yards to Ebron
2013 TTech: 392.8 Pass YPG -- 104.0 YPG for Amaro -- 26.5% of yards to Amaro
Yes the Heels ran a more spread offense than the Canes and the Canes had a much better rushing attack, but let's not make it seem like their passing games are miles apart. That 2001 Miami team was the best team in modern college football history in my book and they also had a great passing attack on top of the great running game and great defense. UNC as a team only averaged 27.2 YPG passing more than Miami in '01. To say that Ebron's stats are inflated because of UNC is a little silly because UNC wasn't really that crazy when it came to putting up yards. On the otherhand, Texas Tech as always piled up a ton of passing yards that need to be taken into account when looking at Amaro's stats.
3 TDs is weak and I agree with that. But I think it's crazy that TDs are being focused on more than yards. Yards tell you a lot more about an individual player than touchdowns do. Saying Shockey was way ahead of Ebron because he scored more TDs is stupid. You can say Shockey was ahead for other reasons but not because of TDs.
Ebron was a much bigger part of his offense than Shockey and made more plays down the field than Shockey. He also has a chance to be a better route runner and playmaker down the field than Shockey ever was. He lacks Shockey's bulldog mentality and toughness but Ebron's a very good TE prospect.
It's been 12 years, but Shockey, who only started 11 college games, hit the NFL and was an instant impact player. He talent is severely underrated. He had HOF talent.
I don't know about Ebron matching that type of physical talent but he doesn't have to make this a good value. The drops, especially at the proday, don't concern me. He can make tough catches. His draft value is all about his movement moving up to the NFL. His workout numbers are not exceptional but he is fluid as Osi mentioned.
Is the guy a physical mismatch for nfl players? If he is, he'll be a fine pick at #12. A TE that causes matchup problems is huge for an offense. We need one.
Even if he isn't Shockey it doesn't mean he wouldn't be worth a 1st round pick. Especially in today's NFL and with our new OC who loves him some TEs.
We'll see, I have my concerns about Ebron's physicality and blocking potential as well. But I also see his upside.
And just because he is training at some well-known place picked out by his agent doesn't mean he's training hard. Which was my point. You can only tell how hard a guy trained by how they perform at the combine and their pro days. If they don't live up to expectations, is it because they didn't train hard or because the expectations weren't realistic?
In Boylhart's bottomline on Ebron, he opens by saying...
It's been 12 years, but Shockey, who only started 11 college games, hit the NFL and was an instant impact player. He talent is severely underrated. He had HOF talent.
I don't know about Ebron matching that type of physical talent but he doesn't have to make this a good value. The drops, especially at the proday, don't concern me. He can make tough catches. His draft value is all about his movement moving up to the NFL. His workout numbers are not exceptional but he is fluid as Osi mentioned.
Is the guy a physical mismatch for nfl players? If he is, he'll be a fine pick at #12. A TE that causes matchup problems is huge for an offense. We need one.
You don't pick a guy that high to be okay with being an average starter for his career. You pick a player that high to be difference maker. If he isn't one, then it is a waste.
I'd say there is an enormous gap in between those 2 scenarios.
He was an MVP-type as a rookie. A real field tilter from day one. That is very rare and we would be very lucky to find a player like it at #12.
I'd say there is an enormous gap in between those 2 scenarios.
I guess some people want him to be some super TE prospect who is an amazing blocker, with 4.21 speed, who has excellent focus, amazing catch radius, and can pat his head and rub his tummy at the same time.
A TE that good won't even last to our pick. Also, no prospect is perfect be it this one or any other one. It comes down to can this prospect contribute at a high level? If Lewan checks out with his issues, I hope we can get him or Martin. Like Ebron, I feel they can contribute right away to the OL.
I'd say there is an enormous gap in between those 2 scenarios.
Don't you want to aim high?
If you spend the #12 overall pick, what is an acceptable return of investment? Shockey is expecting too much? Then what's enough? Greg Olsen? He's become a solid player.
Who is the QB? Is he going to be an NFL pro? If so, what round talent is he? What kind of system did they run? More running system? Did they favor their WRs more?
There is so much that impacts production.
I don't know....when I watched the Heels, Ebron never blew me away with his play. Perhaps I'm outdated this way, but if you take a TE that high he really needs to be special, and I didn't get that impression with Ebron.
I don't know....when I watched the Heels, Ebron never blew me away with his play. Perhaps I'm outdated this way, but if you take a TE that high he really needs to be special, and I didn't get that impression with Ebron.
I think from yesterdays Path to the Draft on UNC pro day, they showed the UNC QB. Renner right? Didn't he hurt his shoulder or something? Not sure who the back up was. But an injury to your starter impacts your stats.
Scouts and Gms will look at this when evaluating him. That's the thing though. Special will get taken top 10 or perhaps 6th like Vernon Davis and Kellen W. Jr. was in 2004. Special won't last to us. The trick is can we find someone who can be productive for us. Is that viable? If so, then cool. If not, then you pass.
People want special. It's a passing league and TE is the hype especially highly productive ones that rival WR production at the top end. Special won't last at 12 if that's the case.
This is a really, really good draft for WRs.
Someone's gonna take a Barr, a Dennard, a Bortles, a Clowney (who's fallen off the face of the draft btw) just a bit earlier than we all expect.
I don't mean that he won't be a high pick, just that nobody's even talking about him anymore as a top 12.
Clowney, Bortles/Bridgewater, Robinson are all going top 12. There's gonna be plenty on the plate when we come to dinner.
And just because he is training at some well-known place picked out by his agent doesn't mean he's training hard. Which was my point. You can only tell how hard a guy trained by how they perform at the combine and their pro days. If they don't live up to expectations, is it because they didn't train hard or because the expectations weren't realistic?
In Boylhart's bottomline on Ebron, he opens by saying...
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I really like this kids potential to play at the next level, but his work ethic scares me.
And closes by saying...
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I know one thing -- throwing money at a kid with this much talent who shows on the field to be as inconsistent in the details of playing his posiiton is a gamble. Then again, sometimes gambles pay off big time. You be the judge.
Should've known a Boylhart post was coming , and whose expectations did he not live up to ? Mayock seemed plenty impressed.
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Clowney has a good chance of going #1, if it isn't Bortles. If HOU doesn't get him, the Falcons will.
I don't mean that he won't be a high pick, just that nobody's even talking about him anymore as a top 12.
Clowney, Bortles/Bridgewater, Robinson are all going top 12. There's gonna be plenty on the plate when we come to dinner.
I think Robinson, Bortles, Clowney and Watkins are sure fire top five picks. Mack could as well. The rest are toss-ups. Bridgewater will probably go to Minny or Cleveland.