pass. Too many drops, marginal blocking, and a possible prima donna personality.
But he could easily be the pick, although I think Buffalo will take him. If it's between him and Evans, I would take Evans. I would certainly take Ebron over Barr, just because Barr is so new to defense, and is an OLB in a 3-4, not a DE. My overall preference like so many others is for Donald, but I don't think the Giants will pick him. He doesn't fit what they typically look for in a DT. I hope I'm wrong.
but we should also learn to love Donald, Evans, Lewan, Martin, Lee, Barr, Gilbert, Jernigan, Dennard, Ha Ha, Pryor...and all those who could possibly be picked before 12 just in case.
Ebron were the ONLY starting caliber TE available I might agree he would be the pick (we know the Giants have scouted him extensively) but there are 4-5-6 TE's who could go top 3 rounds who might be good NFL starting TE's (obviously more if it's more of a "sleeper" guy).
Ebron's stock will have taken a slight dip in the process off the field. not as dynamic in Indy as advertised. Rumored to have come across poorly in some interviews with a cocky attitude. The lapses in concentration are there to see in his dropped passes. Of course game tape trumps all but was he really a dominant force worthy of a Top 12 slot? At this point the only thing pushing the guy to us is the fact we have the worst TE corps in football.
Since I murder his name I'll say the kid from Iowa will be our TE in the 3rd or 4th round. Reminds me of Ballard with a lot more lead in his shorts. First will be Evans if he is there. O line in 2nd....
Barr didn't play off the ball much at UCLA but he did at times. His position was similar to what Lawrence Taylor did with the Giants. He was primarily a DE playing from a 2-point stance. We can list LT as a 3-4 OLB due to the Giants scheme but the reality was Parcells invented a new position for him.
IMO Barr isn't going to transition to LB rather he's going to strengthen his frame and play DE in the Osi Umenyiora mold...he's 6'47/255# has only played defense two years and I see him easily getting his playing weight up in the 265/270# range. Trent Cole was 236# when he was drafted he's now in the 260# plus range. Barr has the frame to carry the weight comfortably without loss of explosion.
Barr will go through a transition period adjusting to putting his hand in the dirt. For me that's an easier projection than moving off the ball into a 4-3 OLB role playing in space which is a waste of his talents.
Will there be growing pains, absolutely but he's a raw talent due to his limited time as a defender. That should facilitate the modifications he'll need to make imo.
do agree however that it would be a major mistake gambling on another "Adrien Robinson" vs. taking a guy you can pencil in as a potential help for 2014.
They've needed linebackers since Armstead retired. They don't draft them high.
The difference is that JR doesn't consider linebackers to be much of a need, at least as far as the draft is concerned. He'd rather find them in free agency.
As for TEs, he's lucked out for six years, inheriting Shockey, striking a little gold with Boss, and a lot with Ballard. Last year his luck ran out.
So LB isn't a value position so we haven't drafted and yet TE is a value position but we didn't draft any because we had Boss and Ballard? Not adding up dude. I'm thinking OL and DL in rd 1. At least that's what I hope for. That being said, if we do take this guy, I'm all for it. We can certainly use a dynamic pass catcher and he's saying the right things about wanting to be a complete TE.
You can argue DL is almost as big a need. We're down to 3 DT and we have no pass rush unless JPP rebounds and Moore Develops. Donald would be a force in the Pass rush and would cause teams to pick there poison. Jenkins could slide out to end. JPP could leave after this year, and who knows what Kiwi will give. If there's no great pash rushing ends and we like to generate pressure with the front 4, I would go with Donald.
I already love Donald. The counter-argument is Kuhn has 2 yrs left, Hankins 3 and we need to go DE as part of team building because right now unless Kiwi has a strong year only Moore is under contract 2 years out. This makes a lot of sense and a DE is a strong need as well.
Let's put it this way. It's unlikely all the needs will be filled in the draft. I think the team should invest in building where it should do so and hope for some development of young players. OL, DE, DT and an explosive vertical threat are the top 4 needs from infusing youth and rebuilding the roster and I hope this is what the giants target 3 of those 4 with their 3 premium picks and then I hope they take players with a high chance of success, not atheltic guys with good feet or a great wingspan or the JPP of tight ends in the rest of the draft. If they want those "flyers" I hope they attract UDFA's for that type of player.
he's locked into a TE @12. There are other options in this draft class. The fact the team has won multiple Superbowls with Boss and Ballard as primary contributors speaks volumes.
Barr didn't play off the ball much at UCLA but he did at times. His position was similar to what Lawrence Taylor did with the Giants. He was primarily a DE playing from a 2-point stance. We can list LT as a 3-4 OLB due to the Giants scheme but the reality was Parcells invented a new position for him.
IMO Barr isn't going to transition to LB rather he's going to strengthen his frame and play DE in the Osi Umenyiora mold...he's 6'47/255# has only played defense two years and I see him easily getting his playing weight up in the 265/270# range. Trent Cole was 236# when he was drafted he's now in the 260# plus range. Barr has the frame to carry the weight comfortably without loss of explosion.
Barr will go through a transition period adjusting to putting his hand in the dirt. For me that's an easier projection than moving off the ball into a 4-3 OLB role playing in space which is a waste of his talents.
Will there be growing pains, absolutely but he's a raw talent due to his limited time as a defender. That should facilitate the modifications he'll need to make imo.
Excellent analysis. I agree that Barr could be a DE in a 4-3 if he adds weight, and that is how the Giants would play him, not as a LB. Right now, his frame is best suited for an OLB in a 3-4, but with extra weight he could be a DE in a 4-3. He's also 6'5", so he might well have the ability to add an extra ten or fifteen pounds, without losing an explosiveness. We also went after Schofield right away in FA, which shows a desire for pass rushers, especially since Tuck is gone. As long as he is a DE, and not asked to play in space, he could easily be the pick. Remember that he has only played two or so years of defense. His progress has already been remarkable. But again, like Ebron, I think he will be gone by #12. This time to Tennessee.
i like amaro better, and we can get him trading up in the 2nd. and still take OL or WR in the first.
I like Amaro better, too, but I don't think the Giants do. And I don't think JR is going to gamble on getting a TE in a later round. I think he's going to fill his most pressing need as early as possible.
we also need DEs and DTs (numbers-wise) so at 12 we have to go BPA keeping in mind our needs if players are close (or if we have ZERO need for the BPA).
But we also have to factor in how close are players at certain positions value-wise and where you think you can get him. Many here love other TEs like Niklas and Amaro who could be had later in the draft.
Barr could go to Tennessee. They could see him in the Jevon Kearse mold. In this class someone has to slip through the cracks and be there for us @12. I'm hoping it's Evans or Barr.
I've argued against drafting Ebron at 12 for weeks now.
how many reports we have read about the Giants heavy scouting interest in Ebron all season if he's the pick it's safe to assume they love the player not just "have a hole that needs filling".
Couldn't agree more...they absolutely must concentrate on the OL/DL first and foremost in this draft, anything less would be short sighted with all the massive ??? that exist in the trenches...good skill positions can and should be picked in later rounds IMO.
He was going to be the pick until they went with Pugh at the last minute. Would Ebron at 12 be that farfetched? I don't think so.
And again, I'm not saying that Ebron is worth the 12th pick in the draft, or that he's less of a value than Donald, Lewan, Martin, or anyone else. I'm saying that JR is going to fill his most pressing need as early as possible, and if it's TE, and a case can be made that it is, then he's going to draft Ebron if he's still on the board at 12.
I hope we don't pick him. We need help in the trenches; I want OL or DL unless either one of the consensus top 8 (e.g. Watkins, Mack, Robinson, Matthews) drops or only 1 QB is taken before us and a lot of the guys mentioned for us in the second tier are gone.
Although it is unlikely, I think our best scenario is a trade down, taking Yankey with our first pick in the mid / late 1st.
Boss and Ballard, their abilities were utilized because we had a good OL that gave the QB time. Its just football 101.
Uconn nailed my thoughts on this situation and our offense in general. We can win with the skill players we have on the roster right now. I'm not so sure we can win with the OL as it stands now.
we simply don't value TE like you do, and certainly not at 12. Our need was just as big last year and we passed on Eifert and Ertz at 19, and passed on Fleener at 32 the year before.
None of these TE's are any better on paper (if they are its minimal).
Meanwhile upgrading your OL usually takes a premium pick, which we have. We also need another playmaker on the DLine.
tight end that you pine for each and every spring and when it does happen, please turn off any and all video recording devices before ejaculation.
Each and every Spring? I've beaten the drum for exactly one TE in the 1st round in recent years - Eifert, last year. And I'm not beating the drum for Ebron, this year. You might want to reach for some Kleenex, yourself.
and Jimmy Graham on the 2013 Giants and I still think our offense is a disaster. If the QB doesn't have time, there's nothing you can do. Especially if your QB is an immobile pocket passer.
the problem with using the Eifert example is we have no way of knowing if it was the need or the player. Maybe they really loved Eifert? If the Giants take Ebron I'm pretty confident they loved the player vs. using #12 just to fill a hole when Amaro, ASF, Niklas and Fiedorowicz are all seen as potential good NFL starters. I've seen a few sites high on Grimble as well.
You go BPA in the first. Fuck need in the 1st round, it takes a backseat to value and grabbing a more athletic version of Coby Fleener at #12 is not value.
....there was a complete consensus among all four guys (Davis, Baldinger, Conway and forget the other guy's name - former NFL front office draft guru) on NFLN's "Path to the Draft" the other night that Ebron is without question a top 10 pick in this draft. They were all absolutely glowing about him.
Regardless of whether Reese drafts for need or not in the 1st rounds, I think he's pretty consistently drafted good, productive players there. Wilson is still a question mark but I do think he'll get it together. Pugh was a great pick, Prince was, JPP was, Nicks was (even if it doesn't feel that way now), Phillips was pretty good.. Ross was ok..
As long as he keeps coming away with good, productive football players there, I don't really care. It's the mid rounds we need to get more out of.
If Ebron is the pick, so be it. It'll mean they really like him. Not just that we need a TE.
They've needed linebackers since Armstead retired. They don't draft them high.
The difference is that JR doesn't consider linebackers to be much of a need, at least as far as the draft is concerned. He'd rather find them in free agency.
As for TEs, he's lucked out for six years, inheriting Shockey, striking a little gold with Boss, and a lot with Ballard. Last year his luck ran out.
Klaats is mostly right. Look at our picks since Reese came on board in 07 relative to the PERCEIVED needs at the time of draft. Its almost always a high need position. The qualifier in this is there are certain positions that Reese considers very high impact positions which accentuate the need to stock those positions moreso than others.
Now Donald may be an x factor in this as we saw with Prince. We were all set to take Solder but when he got taken and Prince dropped, he was clear cut BPA at a higher impact position. Depending on the grade on Donald and considering the premium we place on pass rush , he could be clear cut BPA when we pick.
the offensive lineman that best fits the Giants needs is Marcus Martin USC in rd 2. If you use your second round pick on him (not a given, but let's assume so for this post), you eliminate Niklas, Serafin-Jenkins, and Amaro from the discussion as they will not be there in Rd 3 and are not worth it in Rd 1. (trading down is the ideal scenario this year but they may not be able to do that)
The only other TE i'd feel comfortable with playing this year is Feidorowicz out of Iowa, who could be there in round 3 or possibly 4.
point is, you are likely using a top 3 pick on a TE. you will probably see some combination of OL, TE, and ?? with the top 3 picks. so which round would offer the best value for those positions?
Regardless of whether Reese drafts for need or not in the 1st rounds, I think he's pretty consistently drafted good, productive players there. Wilson is still a question mark but I do think he'll get it together. Pugh was a great pick, Prince was, JPP was, Nicks was (even if it doesn't feel that way now), Phillips was pretty good.. Ross was ok..
As long as he keeps coming away with good, productive football players there, I don't really care. It's the mid rounds we need to get more out of.
If Ebron is the pick, so be it. It'll mean they really like him. Not just that we need a TE.
Ross was the worst of the bunch (I wanted Staley) but even he still was a big contrbutor in the secondary in two Super Bowl runs.
You could make that case for Prince because CB is a position you could always describe as a "need". At the time he was taken, it was pretty clear he was a BPA pick much moreso than a need pick. No one thought he would still be on the board at 19.
I would say most teams have more positions than not that could be considered "needs". It's difficult to be totally set at many positions.
I'd say as of now, the Giants are as "close" to set at CB and S.. and obviously Eli.. that's about it. We need more OL help, we need another DT, we need another DE, we need another LB, we need a TE, we need another WR. So unless we take someone who plays in the secondary, you could basically construe anyone we draft as filling a need.
So they don't take up so much space. You can do that, you know.
arc, you have to factor both "need" and "like" into the equation, sure, along with value. It's not like the Giants are going to draft Colt Lyerla at 12 even if they like him a whole lot.
Do we need a TE? Absolutely. Do the Giants like Ebron? Sure seems like they do. Does he represent good value at 12? The consensus is that he does. Would I draft him there? No. Do I think Jerry Reese would? Yes.
or should I say, is Ebron a better TE prospect than some of the first round TEs that the Giants passed on over the last 5-6-7 years? I question whether the Giants like Ebron more than those young TEs of the past 5 years or so. Maybe they do....but if they don't, or even if the like Ebron equally as much, I don't think they draft him. I think they go for the so called premium position in round 1---be it LT, DE (Barr pass rushing LB) or WR...or maybe DT (donald another pass rusher)
Gman Dynasty - how do you know the Giants were all set
My point is simply this: if the Giants draft Eric Ebron at 12, it probably means (regardless of what we believe) they value him highly enough to justify taking him there, not that they're drafting a TE out of desperation because of position scarcity on the roster.
I think value will factor into the decision just as much as need.
as they do a pass rusher, a corner, or a wide receiver.
There's a clear cut need for two of those three positions.
There's a clear-cut need for a TE as well, but I don't think the value of a TE to the Giants is on the same tier as a defensive pass rusher or a high-level WR.
A "fortuitous happenstance" that combines need and value. A prime example of this is 2008. We needed a Safety and KP was still on the board at 32, so we took him. Filled a need, got good value. I can see the same thing happening this year.
Unlike probably a majority of posters, I feel that the skill positions have a greater impact on success than interior or defensive positions. Games are won upfront, defense wins chmpionships,the game is won in the trenches, all have merit. But Eli desparately needs TE/WR first and foremost. If it's Lewann or Donald, fine. But am still hoping for the above players.
To potentially get an all pro tight end who scouts have said might be the best prospect to come out since Vernon Davis is bad value at 12. The things I read here are mind boggling
your convictions and your contributions to this site are top notch, but we have plenty of needs. I could see D-Line, O-Line and WR as bigger need areas.
I feel like TE is comparable to the LB position in that Reese just doesn't put a lot of value to it...ie resources. Although who knows, people poo-pooed in previous years that; "We don't take RBs in the first round" and "We don't take O-linemen in the first round."
Ya never know, but I certainly do not see the value in taking Ebron at 12. Especially with all the talent in this draft. Is this guy even as good as Colby Fleener? 12th Pick just seems way too early to get a TE that's is not a sure fire All Pro.
We have gone need in early rounds recently, but with so many needs just give me the best player available in the first, who will have the biggest impact, that's not a QB.
TTH, you could've made the same argument re RBs in 2012.
and if the Giants go that route you have to trust them. I'm confident in this regimes abilty to pick amongst the top prospects. They've done very well in Round 1 recently.
What concerns me in this draft isn't deciding between a Mercedes or Cadillac in Round 1. It's when JR&Co have to select which Toyota/Ford or Chevy we prefer in Rounds two through five. We've bitten into quite a few lemons in recent years.
Thanks for the kind words. You know, I made a post, recently (I'll try and find it) where I outlined our needs at DE, DT, WR, and other positions, and why I thought that taking a TE at 12 was a bad idea.
In this thread, though, I'm trying to get inside JR's head and see things the way he might. That's all.
will not be the Giant's pick unless he's there at #43.
Can't block. Myers part II.
Different system now. So let's see what's asked in this system. The issue with Myers is that all our TEs were 6'5-6'7 256-270 lbs. And we wanted a 2 way TE with more so blocking if anything. Myers was a WCO TE who didn't fit that role. So now with a new system, let's see what the new model is.
Since I murder his name I'll say the kid from Iowa will be our TE in the 3rd or 4th round. Reminds me of Ballard with a lot more lead in his shorts. First will be Evans if he is there. O line in 2nd....
will not be the Giant's pick unless he's there at #43.
Can't block. Myers part II.
Myers doesn't have 1/4 of the playmaking ability Ebron does. Awful comparison.
Arc and that's the issue. Our fan base forgot what a weapon a TE can be. First thing most think of is can he block? I really hope the TE in this offense is more of a play maker than we had before. In fact, Ebron, amaro, or whoever we get, I hope does less blocking and more of a glorified WR role. Be a fucking play maker. That's what I want to see.
Nothing in the draft is a certainty, if he is there he could be the pick, that is about as far as anyone could go, you go further and you are wrong. Why, because you simply do not know how the draft will fall. What if Evans is also there, what if Lewan, Evans, and Barr are all there?
I am not going to go on and on, because it is senseless, but you get my point. The other thing to bear in mind is how Reese has drafted in the past, what are his tendencies, will they change and why.
The point here is simple, if they did not hire the new offensive coordinator and Gilbride were still here, do you think he would be the pick? Remember, Shockey was drafted before Coughlin came here, since Coughlin has come here, his offenses simply have not used the tight end as a feature position, and this despite the fact that Shockey was here, and when Coughlin arrived, he still was a very good reciever, he did get injured and soon was not the same player, but one look at Shockey's stats and you can see a difference. The big difference was the way Tom uses his tight ends, with fassel Shockey was used more as a reciever, with Coughlin he had to block first.
People assuming that now that we have a new offensive coordinator that the offensive philosophy will change, it will but how much? This is what none of us know, and maybe even the coaching staff themselves may not yet know. So for you to assume anything at this point is foolish, we simply nee to see exactly what the Giants evolve into, remember also, they may evolve into more of a defensive team also, one look at the free agency period would give you that impression. Coughlin is a very good and possibly a great head coach, great coaches do whatever in needed to continue to succeed, and we do not know for certain what is in Tom's heart except one thing alone. he believes in a balanced team, balance in relationship to offense and defense, and balance in relationship to running and passing, he has always said this, and i think he will show us that this season.
could be right. However, if Evans falls to us I believe he will be the pick. If not, Ebron, Lewan etc. are all possibilities. There really aren't any guys that should go at 12 that I will hate. We can use upgrades at a number of positions and the guys I expetc to be there and may be picked will all be upgrades, IMO. Including Ebron.
'Fix this offensive line now'. Which is not to say for certain they will go o-line in rnd 1 (although I'd wager they do), but a flashy, poor blocking tight end will not be the pick.
What is a certainty is that the Giants are scouting many options at the position in the later rounds.
RE: We passed on Eifert because OT was the greater need.
was formerly known as the Robert Gallery Faction. just to put it in Historical perspective.
Not true at all. They are very different prospects with different pluses an minuses and if you had been around in 2004, you would know there is no connection between those who advocated for Gallery and those who today are fans of Lewan.
RE: RE: We passed on Eifert because OT was the greater need.
However, I know teams usually stick to the integrity of their draft board and then usually go around the room and talk about drafting a specific prospect. And usually you reach a majority. So if the room wants Lewan or Martin, Jerry wouldn't over rule everyone. It's not a dictatorship.
That's what I am saying what pick? when did it start? Perhaps it's now with Ross as our guy. That's really when our drafts went downhill.
Each and every Spring? I've beaten the drum for exactly one TE in the 1st round in recent years - Eifert, last year. And I'm not beating the drum for Ebron, this year. You might want to reach for some Kleenex, yourself.
Arc and that's the issue. Our fan base forgot what a weapon a TE can be. First thing most think of is can he block? I really hope the TE in this offense is more of a play maker than we had before. In fact, Ebron, amaro, or whoever we get, I hope does less blocking and more of a glorified WR role. Be a fucking play maker. That's what I want to see.
AFter the horrific blocking last year and the new Oline in transition/questions, I'd have to think they will require blocking from the TE position until they establish a solid Oline. No?
Arc and that's the issue. Our fan base forgot what a weapon a TE can be. First thing most think of is can he block? I really hope the TE in this offense is more of a play maker than we had before. In fact, Ebron, amaro, or whoever we get, I hope does less blocking and more of a glorified WR role. Be a fucking play maker. That's what I want to see.
AFter the horrific blocking last year and the new Oline in transition/questions, I'd have to think they will require blocking from the TE position until they establish a solid Oline. No?
I am not saying not block at all. You can skin a cat many ways. You don't have to ask your TE to block always in tow with the OL against DEs. You can have your TE arc release and get to backer or safety instead. He is still blocking and helping out. I see someone like Ebron doing that rather than DE like our guys used to.
However, in general, I'd like to see our TE now be more of a threat than prior years. I have been waiting for SOO long for this damn system to change. Finally it's happened and I want our TE to be a god damn weapon for once, and not a glorified OL who catches passes here and there and in the red zone. I want our TE to be a legit weapon like the early days of Shockey.
My biggest fear going into 2014 is blocking for Eli. I'm shell shocked and almost have nightmares about that Carolina game. I've never seen anything in the NFL worse than that.
No matter how they get it done, they need to block for Eli or the best TE in the NFL isn't going to have any production. Nor will a RB or WR.
And reading thos thread because its making me mad.
This is not the droid we are looking for. If you want a big target, go get Evans. He's more of a threat in the air, better hands and he can stretch the field. The guy is so incredibly similar to Plax without the thug-life attitude that brought Plax down.
Otherwise go with one of tge lines. Get Martin or Lewan or take a shot with Donald.
Please do not take this guy. He screams "big mouth who drops balls." He will be out of here after his rookie contract and a mediocre career with the Giants.
However, in general, I'd like to see our TE now be more of a threat than prior years. I have been waiting for SOO long for this damn system to change. Finally it's happened and I want our TE to be a god damn weapon for once, and not a glorified OL who catches passes here and there and in the red zone. I want our TE to be a legit weapon like the early days of Shockey.
Ebron is not your huckleberry then. When I watch him I am reminded of Johnny Mitchell, the TE from the Jets in the 90s. Soft player that just isn't good enough as a receiver to make up for all the shortcomings.
My biggest fear going into 2014 is blocking for Eli. I'm shell shocked and almost have nightmares about that Carolina game. I've never seen anything in the NFL worse than that.
No matter how they get it done, they need to block for Eli or the best TE in the NFL isn't going to have any production. Nor will a RB or WR.
You can help your OL out by running more screens, 1 and 3 step passing concepts. I want to see more slants. WR screens, and throw quick Y hitches, Y stick or arrow routes. Use the backfield more.
There are ways to alleviate pressure on Eli. See our OL was a shit show, that's bad enough. Our offense has a lot of 5 and 7 step drops where WRs and TE have to make sight adjustments. So they need time to read their post snap coverage and by then Eli was getting killed. That led to shitty throws and decisions or the usual bad adjustments.
Hopefully with this new system, a lot of that shit will get cut out. I want to see more check downs. Some Qbs get killed for dink and dunking or capt. checkdown. I would love to see Eli check down more and dink and dunk.
Let's do what opponents do to negate our pass rush. Get rid of the ball quickly. Rivers got props for executing a pussy ass offense where he dink and dunked the ball. Fuck, if that's the case, have Eli do that. It will save him from a sub par OL, and if anything inflate his completion percentage. I don't mind that at all.
...unfortunately it seems when there is this much noise about a player the Giants do seem to draft him. Remember all the noise about Dayne and the more recently with Phillips. Klaatu may be right and Ebron is the pick. I can only hope somebody jumps ahead of the Giants to get him.
It's pretty obvious Ebron is our pick at 12 if he is there.
??? How the hell is it "pretty obvious Ebron is our pick at 12 if he is there"? What insight into Reese's drafting tendencies to u have to support this nonsense? I guess you had Pugh all along last year too? Amukamara before that? JPP was a slam dunk too? If I recall correctly, the year JPP was drafted, we were scouting Brandon Graham pretty hard but the giants didnt go nuts trying to grab him.
I will be furious with this pick. The last thing this offense needs is a loudmouth, soft, nonblocking TE who has concentration issues.
I hope that alk this fuss over Ebron is just to mislead teams thinking about trading up past the Giants to get Evans. I am confident that while they are doing their due diligence, they are mum about Evans and Donald because the six teams immediately behind them could draft either guy (Rams, Jets, Ravens for Evans...Bears, Cowboys Steelers for Donald).
No worries. Last year, though, I thought that Eifert would be the BPA. I was not caught up in Fleenermania the year before, however. I was all about Vinny Curry in 2012.
The track record of the current FO is to pick for need in the first round. As was also stated earlier, the aggressiveness that the team showed in free agency seems to hint towards them being in win now mode. They are trying to fill in all of the gaps, and compete for a title ASAP. Eli Manning is in his prime, Tom Coughlin likely won't be around more than 2-3 more years, you take your shots now with the those two core of the franchise. That means drafting for NEED. The current situation, and history of the current FO both point to need being the pick in the first round.
Right now, the most glaring hole on the roster is at TE, we have starters penciled in at every other position. I know a lot of people keep pointing to the offensive line as a need area, and I agree to an extent. I think we could use insurance at C and RG, but you don't draft either of those positions at #12. There is no Chance Warmack or Jonathan Cooper in this draft class.
As for tackle, Pugh was more than solid last year, and I expect big things out of him this year. Like it or not Will Beatty is our starting left tackle for 2014. Reese clearly liked him enough after 2012 to give him big money, he is not going to give up on him, and in the process admit the contract was a mistake, after just one bad season. They aren't going to invest nearly $40 million on Beatty and then draft tackle in the 1st rd in back to back seasons.
With all of that taken into account, Ebron seems like the most logical fit in round 1. He fills our biggest need, we just brought in an OC that in his previous job valued a pass catching tight end, and our GM has made trips to personally scout him. I am going to take what Klaatu said one step further and say don't be shocked to see us trade up to take him. If he is sitting there at 8 with Minnesota on the clock, and there is a fear that Buffalo wants to take Ebron at 9, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see us jump in front of them to grab him.
If not I say don't take him and I don't care what else he could do.
Bingo... some fans have short memories. Lesson learned by JR... don't compromise Blocking and Pass Protection while Eli's under center again. Not one bit. O-line, RB, TE. Fix it, and fix it good. Grabbing a WR in TE clothing who too often makes some half hearted attempt at blocking, lets the defender come to him, etc. may certainly be a great athlete, and a real receiving weapon. But if he can't be counted on to lay a block, or pass protect on par with other TEs in this draft who will go after the 1st round, then no thank you. Troy Niklas' stock is unfortunately rising. He was a mid 3rd rounder, and now he's top half 2nd round in what's coming out recently on him. But he's a real enthusiastic and powerful blocker who works hard to perfect that craft... more than one analyst has opined the best blocking TE in this draft, and an athletic receiver with soft hands and fluid movements who can run the whole route tree. He's a Giants TE. No more WRs in TE clothing who amount to a compromise on blocking and pass protection.
The biggest question I have is with todays NFL and the absolute lack of defense played in the middle and defenses allowing the TE to release off the line so often untouched, do you really need to draft a TE at 12.
If players like Boss, Ballard and Bennett, who are not 'freak athletes' can get open, why do you need to spend the 12th pick on a TE. Jason Witten and Heath Miller have made careers running by no defender and just being open.
But he could easily be the pick, although I think Buffalo will take him. If it's between him and Evans, I would take Evans. I would certainly take Ebron over Barr, just because Barr is so new to defense, and is an OLB in a 3-4, not a DE. My overall preference like so many others is for Donald, but I don't think the Giants will pick him. He doesn't fit what they typically look for in a DT. I hope I'm wrong.
They've needed linebackers since Armstead retired. They don't draft them high.
Barr didn't play off the ball much at UCLA but he did at times. His position was similar to what Lawrence Taylor did with the Giants. He was primarily a DE playing from a 2-point stance. We can list LT as a 3-4 OLB due to the Giants scheme but the reality was Parcells invented a new position for him.
IMO Barr isn't going to transition to LB rather he's going to strengthen his frame and play DE in the Osi Umenyiora mold...he's 6'47/255# has only played defense two years and I see him easily getting his playing weight up in the 265/270# range. Trent Cole was 236# when he was drafted he's now in the 260# plus range. Barr has the frame to carry the weight comfortably without loss of explosion.
Barr will go through a transition period adjusting to putting his hand in the dirt. For me that's an easier projection than moving off the ball into a 4-3 OLB role playing in space which is a waste of his talents.
Will there be growing pains, absolutely but he's a raw talent due to his limited time as a defender. That should facilitate the modifications he'll need to make imo.
-each and every round-
> that is better that what we have, if you put the time in.
getting 3 of them, say, rounds 3,5,7...might be a much better strategy come game day, if you factor in risk and the balance of our needs
as those needs, any teams needs, strengths and weaknesses tend to mesh together and play off one another.
a pass catching TE works much better with a truly dominating OL.
which applies to all pass recieving positions
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That's been JR's M.O. since 2007.
They've needed linebackers since Armstead retired. They don't draft them high.
The difference is that JR doesn't consider linebackers to be much of a need, at least as far as the draft is concerned. He'd rather find them in free agency.
As for TEs, he's lucked out for six years, inheriting Shockey, striking a little gold with Boss, and a lot with Ballard. Last year his luck ran out.
I expect more of, a run on, the so called pure skill 'skinny and fast' players in the 2015 draft, after the base is cured.
I already love Donald. The counter-argument is Kuhn has 2 yrs left, Hankins 3 and we need to go DE as part of team building because right now unless Kiwi has a strong year only Moore is under contract 2 years out. This makes a lot of sense and a DE is a strong need as well.
Let's put it this way. It's unlikely all the needs will be filled in the draft. I think the team should invest in building where it should do so and hope for some development of young players. OL, DE, DT and an explosive vertical threat are the top 4 needs from infusing youth and rebuilding the roster and I hope this is what the giants target 3 of those 4 with their 3 premium picks and then I hope they take players with a high chance of success, not atheltic guys with good feet or a great wingspan or the JPP of tight ends in the rest of the draft. If they want those "flyers" I hope they attract UDFA's for that type of player.
Barr didn't play off the ball much at UCLA but he did at times. His position was similar to what Lawrence Taylor did with the Giants. He was primarily a DE playing from a 2-point stance. We can list LT as a 3-4 OLB due to the Giants scheme but the reality was Parcells invented a new position for him.
IMO Barr isn't going to transition to LB rather he's going to strengthen his frame and play DE in the Osi Umenyiora mold...he's 6'47/255# has only played defense two years and I see him easily getting his playing weight up in the 265/270# range. Trent Cole was 236# when he was drafted he's now in the 260# plus range. Barr has the frame to carry the weight comfortably without loss of explosion.
Barr will go through a transition period adjusting to putting his hand in the dirt. For me that's an easier projection than moving off the ball into a 4-3 OLB role playing in space which is a waste of his talents.
Will there be growing pains, absolutely but he's a raw talent due to his limited time as a defender. That should facilitate the modifications he'll need to make imo.
Excellent analysis. I agree that Barr could be a DE in a 4-3 if he adds weight, and that is how the Giants would play him, not as a LB. Right now, his frame is best suited for an OLB in a 3-4, but with extra weight he could be a DE in a 4-3. He's also 6'5", so he might well have the ability to add an extra ten or fifteen pounds, without losing an explosiveness. We also went after Schofield right away in FA, which shows a desire for pass rushers, especially since Tuck is gone. As long as he is a DE, and not asked to play in space, he could easily be the pick. Remember that he has only played two or so years of defense. His progress has already been remarkable. But again, like Ebron, I think he will be gone by #12. This time to Tennessee.
I like Amaro better, too, but I don't think the Giants do. And I don't think JR is going to gamble on getting a TE in a later round. I think he's going to fill his most pressing need as early as possible.
But we also have to factor in how close are players at certain positions value-wise and where you think you can get him. Many here love other TEs like Niklas and Amaro who could be had later in the draft.
So, Klaatu, you be wrong!
And please no Anthony Barr. Can we stop drafting players who are tweeners and don't really fit in a 4-3?
Ohhhhhhh Wait.
And again, I'm not saying that Ebron is worth the 12th pick in the draft, or that he's less of a value than Donald, Lewan, Martin, or anyone else. I'm saying that JR is going to fill his most pressing need as early as possible, and if it's TE, and a case can be made that it is, then he's going to draft Ebron if he's still on the board at 12.
Although it is unlikely, I think our best scenario is a trade down, taking Yankey with our first pick in the mid / late 1st.
Uconn nailed my thoughts on this situation and our offense in general. We can win with the skill players we have on the roster right now. I'm not so sure we can win with the OL as it stands now.
None of these TE's are any better on paper (if they are its minimal).
Meanwhile upgrading your OL usually takes a premium pick, which we have. We also need another playmaker on the DLine.
Each and every Spring? I've beaten the drum for exactly one TE in the 1st round in recent years - Eifert, last year. And I'm not beating the drum for Ebron, this year. You might want to reach for some Kleenex, yourself.
As long as he keeps coming away with good, productive football players there, I don't really care. It's the mid rounds we need to get more out of.
If Ebron is the pick, so be it. It'll mean they really like him. Not just that we need a TE.
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In comment 11587811 Klaatu said:
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That's been JR's M.O. since 2007.
They've needed linebackers since Armstead retired. They don't draft them high.
The difference is that JR doesn't consider linebackers to be much of a need, at least as far as the draft is concerned. He'd rather find them in free agency.
As for TEs, he's lucked out for six years, inheriting Shockey, striking a little gold with Boss, and a lot with Ballard. Last year his luck ran out.
Klaats is mostly right. Look at our picks since Reese came on board in 07 relative to the PERCEIVED needs at the time of draft. Its almost always a high need position. The qualifier in this is there are certain positions that Reese considers very high impact positions which accentuate the need to stock those positions moreso than others.
Now Donald may be an x factor in this as we saw with Prince. We were all set to take Solder but when he got taken and Prince dropped, he was clear cut BPA at a higher impact position. Depending on the grade on Donald and considering the premium we place on pass rush , he could be clear cut BPA when we pick.
Ross, Phillips, Nicks, Wilson, Pugh. Most definately.
The only other TE i'd feel comfortable with playing this year is Feidorowicz out of Iowa, who could be there in round 3 or possibly 4.
point is, you are likely using a top 3 pick on a TE. you will probably see some combination of OL, TE, and ?? with the top 3 picks. so which round would offer the best value for those positions?
As long as he keeps coming away with good, productive football players there, I don't really care. It's the mid rounds we need to get more out of.
If Ebron is the pick, so be it. It'll mean they really like him. Not just that we need a TE.
Ross was the worst of the bunch (I wanted Staley) but even he still was a big contrbutor in the secondary in two Super Bowl runs.
I would say most teams have more positions than not that could be considered "needs". It's difficult to be totally set at many positions.
I'd say as of now, the Giants are as "close" to set at CB and S.. and obviously Eli.. that's about it. We need more OL help, we need another DT, we need another DE, we need another LB, we need a TE, we need another WR. So unless we take someone who plays in the secondary, you could basically construe anyone we draft as filling a need.
arc, you have to factor both "need" and "like" into the equation, sure, along with value. It's not like the Giants are going to draft Colt Lyerla at 12 even if they like him a whole lot.
Do we need a TE? Absolutely. Do the Giants like Ebron? Sure seems like they do. Does he represent good value at 12? The consensus is that he does. Would I draft him there? No. Do I think Jerry Reese would? Yes.
Reese always says it is BPA, so it must be.
But Reese is a liar. (as he should be)
I thought Prince was the easiest pick in a decade. He fell when a few more QBs were taken than expected, and Giants jumped on the opportunity.
I think value will factor into the decision just as much as need.
There's a clear cut need for two of those three positions.
There's a clear-cut need for a TE as well, but I don't think the value of a TE to the Giants is on the same tier as a defensive pass rusher or a high-level WR.
I would prefer aaron donald or a trade up for sammy watkins:-)
To potentially get an all pro tight end who scouts have said might be the best prospect to come out since Vernon Davis is bad value at 12. The things I read here are mind boggling
I feel like TE is comparable to the LB position in that Reese just doesn't put a lot of value to it...ie resources. Although who knows, people poo-pooed in previous years that; "We don't take RBs in the first round" and "We don't take O-linemen in the first round."
Ya never know, but I certainly do not see the value in taking Ebron at 12. Especially with all the talent in this draft. Is this guy even as good as Colby Fleener? 12th Pick just seems way too early to get a TE that's is not a sure fire All Pro.
We have gone need in early rounds recently, but with so many needs just give me the best player available in the first, who will have the biggest impact, that's not a QB.
It's hard to compare the value of a 29th-32nd pick to a 12th pick.
What concerns me in this draft isn't deciding between a Mercedes or Cadillac in Round 1. It's when JR&Co have to select which Toyota/Ford or Chevy we prefer in Rounds two through five. We've bitten into quite a few lemons in recent years.
In this thread, though, I'm trying to get inside JR's head and see things the way he might. That's all.
Can't block. Myers part II.
Can't block. Myers part II.
Different system now. So let's see what's asked in this system. The issue with Myers is that all our TEs were 6'5-6'7 256-270 lbs. And we wanted a 2 way TE with more so blocking if anything. Myers was a WCO TE who didn't fit that role. So now with a new system, let's see what the new model is.
Can't block. Myers part II.
Myers doesn't have 1/4 of the playmaking ability Ebron does. Awful comparison.
I agree .... although, maybe Donald.
Ebron does however.
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will not be the Giant's pick unless he's there at #43.
Can't block. Myers part II.
Myers doesn't have 1/4 of the playmaking ability Ebron does. Awful comparison.
Arc and that's the issue. Our fan base forgot what a weapon a TE can be. First thing most think of is can he block? I really hope the TE in this offense is more of a play maker than we had before. In fact, Ebron, amaro, or whoever we get, I hope does less blocking and more of a glorified WR role. Be a fucking play maker. That's what I want to see.
I am not going to go on and on, because it is senseless, but you get my point. The other thing to bear in mind is how Reese has drafted in the past, what are his tendencies, will they change and why.
The point here is simple, if they did not hire the new offensive coordinator and Gilbride were still here, do you think he would be the pick? Remember, Shockey was drafted before Coughlin came here, since Coughlin has come here, his offenses simply have not used the tight end as a feature position, and this despite the fact that Shockey was here, and when Coughlin arrived, he still was a very good reciever, he did get injured and soon was not the same player, but one look at Shockey's stats and you can see a difference. The big difference was the way Tom uses his tight ends, with fassel Shockey was used more as a reciever, with Coughlin he had to block first.
People assuming that now that we have a new offensive coordinator that the offensive philosophy will change, it will but how much? This is what none of us know, and maybe even the coaching staff themselves may not yet know. So for you to assume anything at this point is foolish, we simply nee to see exactly what the Giants evolve into, remember also, they may evolve into more of a defensive team also, one look at the free agency period would give you that impression. Coughlin is a very good and possibly a great head coach, great coaches do whatever in needed to continue to succeed, and we do not know for certain what is in Tom's heart except one thing alone. he believes in a balanced team, balance in relationship to offense and defense, and balance in relationship to running and passing, he has always said this, and i think he will show us that this season.
What is a certainty is that the Giants are scouting many options at the position in the later rounds.
When did this MO start out of curiosity? What draft year?
Not true at all. They are very different prospects with different pluses an minuses and if you had been around in 2004, you would know there is no connection between those who advocated for Gallery and those who today are fans of Lewan.
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As I said, that's Reese's M.O.
When did this MO start out of curiosity? What draft year?
2007. The year JR became the GM.
I am trying to think of that's more Ross then Reese.
Can't block. Myers part II.
Words from someone who never saw Ebron play once.
That's what I am saying what pick? when did it start? Perhaps it's now with Ross as our guy. That's really when our drafts went downhill.
Arc and that's the issue. Our fan base forgot what a weapon a TE can be. First thing most think of is can he block? I really hope the TE in this offense is more of a play maker than we had before. In fact, Ebron, amaro, or whoever we get, I hope does less blocking and more of a glorified WR role. Be a fucking play maker. That's what I want to see.
AFter the horrific blocking last year and the new Oline in transition/questions, I'd have to think they will require blocking from the TE position until they establish a solid Oline. No?
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Arc and that's the issue. Our fan base forgot what a weapon a TE can be. First thing most think of is can he block? I really hope the TE in this offense is more of a play maker than we had before. In fact, Ebron, amaro, or whoever we get, I hope does less blocking and more of a glorified WR role. Be a fucking play maker. That's what I want to see.
AFter the horrific blocking last year and the new Oline in transition/questions, I'd have to think they will require blocking from the TE position until they establish a solid Oline. No?
I am not saying not block at all. You can skin a cat many ways. You don't have to ask your TE to block always in tow with the OL against DEs. You can have your TE arc release and get to backer or safety instead. He is still blocking and helping out. I see someone like Ebron doing that rather than DE like our guys used to.
However, in general, I'd like to see our TE now be more of a threat than prior years. I have been waiting for SOO long for this damn system to change. Finally it's happened and I want our TE to be a god damn weapon for once, and not a glorified OL who catches passes here and there and in the red zone. I want our TE to be a legit weapon like the early days of Shockey.
No matter how they get it done, they need to block for Eli or the best TE in the NFL isn't going to have any production. Nor will a RB or WR.
This is not the droid we are looking for. If you want a big target, go get Evans. He's more of a threat in the air, better hands and he can stretch the field. The guy is so incredibly similar to Plax without the thug-life attitude that brought Plax down.
Otherwise go with one of tge lines. Get Martin or Lewan or take a shot with Donald.
Please do not take this guy. He screams "big mouth who drops balls." He will be out of here after his rookie contract and a mediocre career with the Giants.
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In comment 11588075 AnishPatel said:
However, in general, I'd like to see our TE now be more of a threat than prior years. I have been waiting for SOO long for this damn system to change. Finally it's happened and I want our TE to be a god damn weapon for once, and not a glorified OL who catches passes here and there and in the red zone. I want our TE to be a legit weapon like the early days of Shockey.
No matter how they get it done, they need to block for Eli or the best TE in the NFL isn't going to have any production. Nor will a RB or WR.
You can help your OL out by running more screens, 1 and 3 step passing concepts. I want to see more slants. WR screens, and throw quick Y hitches, Y stick or arrow routes. Use the backfield more.
There are ways to alleviate pressure on Eli. See our OL was a shit show, that's bad enough. Our offense has a lot of 5 and 7 step drops where WRs and TE have to make sight adjustments. So they need time to read their post snap coverage and by then Eli was getting killed. That led to shitty throws and decisions or the usual bad adjustments.
Hopefully with this new system, a lot of that shit will get cut out. I want to see more check downs. Some Qbs get killed for dink and dunking or capt. checkdown. I would love to see Eli check down more and dink and dunk.
Let's do what opponents do to negate our pass rush. Get rid of the ball quickly. Rivers got props for executing a pussy ass offense where he dink and dunked the ball. Fuck, if that's the case, have Eli do that. It will save him from a sub par OL, and if anything inflate his completion percentage. I don't mind that at all.
??? How the hell is it "pretty obvious Ebron is our pick at 12 if he is there"? What insight into Reese's drafting tendencies to u have to support this nonsense? I guess you had Pugh all along last year too? Amukamara before that? JPP was a slam dunk too? If I recall correctly, the year JPP was drafted, we were scouting Brandon Graham pretty hard but the giants didnt go nuts trying to grab him.
I hope that alk this fuss over Ebron is just to mislead teams thinking about trading up past the Giants to get Evans. I am confident that while they are doing their due diligence, they are mum about Evans and Donald because the six teams immediately behind them could draft either guy (Rams, Jets, Ravens for Evans...Bears, Cowboys Steelers for Donald).
No worries. Last year, though, I thought that Eifert would be the BPA. I was not caught up in Fleenermania the year before, however. I was all about Vinny Curry in 2012.
It's just funny how we all get ourselves dead set on player x being the guy sometimes.
We could finally draft a real linebacker in this draft,Nah I want that guy.The Carolina goofball
Right now, the most glaring hole on the roster is at TE, we have starters penciled in at every other position. I know a lot of people keep pointing to the offensive line as a need area, and I agree to an extent. I think we could use insurance at C and RG, but you don't draft either of those positions at #12. There is no Chance Warmack or Jonathan Cooper in this draft class.
As for tackle, Pugh was more than solid last year, and I expect big things out of him this year. Like it or not Will Beatty is our starting left tackle for 2014. Reese clearly liked him enough after 2012 to give him big money, he is not going to give up on him, and in the process admit the contract was a mistake, after just one bad season. They aren't going to invest nearly $40 million on Beatty and then draft tackle in the 1st rd in back to back seasons.
With all of that taken into account, Ebron seems like the most logical fit in round 1. He fills our biggest need, we just brought in an OC that in his previous job valued a pass catching tight end, and our GM has made trips to personally scout him. I am going to take what Klaatu said one step further and say don't be shocked to see us trade up to take him. If he is sitting there at 8 with Minnesota on the clock, and there is a fear that Buffalo wants to take Ebron at 9, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see us jump in front of them to grab him.
Bingo... some fans have short memories. Lesson learned by JR... don't compromise Blocking and Pass Protection while Eli's under center again. Not one bit. O-line, RB, TE. Fix it, and fix it good. Grabbing a WR in TE clothing who too often makes some half hearted attempt at blocking, lets the defender come to him, etc. may certainly be a great athlete, and a real receiving weapon. But if he can't be counted on to lay a block, or pass protect on par with other TEs in this draft who will go after the 1st round, then no thank you. Troy Niklas' stock is unfortunately rising. He was a mid 3rd rounder, and now he's top half 2nd round in what's coming out recently on him. But he's a real enthusiastic and powerful blocker who works hard to perfect that craft... more than one analyst has opined the best blocking TE in this draft, and an athletic receiver with soft hands and fluid movements who can run the whole route tree. He's a Giants TE. No more WRs in TE clothing who amount to a compromise on blocking and pass protection.
If players like Boss, Ballard and Bennett, who are not 'freak athletes' can get open, why do you need to spend the 12th pick on a TE. Jason Witten and Heath Miller have made careers running by no defender and just being open.
TE are open every freaking pass play, every game