What do you guys think of a 3-3-5 scheme with Anthony Barr

For NYG I hate

the 3-3-5 not so much

someone tell that to Seattle..

could well be our pick. We need a DE ( always a high priority for the Giants) and he has the speed measurables that JR and Ross love. He is as big as LT but is he a hard nosed football player? Reese and Ross have not been very good at gaging that. Anybody can compare numbers.

?

People who pump him up never watched him play. If you thought Osi sucked against the run Barr would make him look like Strahan.

No more 3-4 players.

Teams would run on it all day long.

3-3-5 is tough schematically to block but, it requires the players to really play their gaps and make reads. It's also very susceptible when the ball is run inside while teams spread you out. Doesn't seem like a great fit for the NFL. It's not a bad defense to run in college or HS.

Is one of the top five physical players in this draft and the idea that he can't play in a 4-3 is foolish. If drafted he becomes our best LB at that point hands down where you put him on the field really is not important.

isn't good against the run?

The key to victory in BBI's imaginary NFL

HELLO we have been running a 3-3-5 at times for years without the personale to even do it. Pay attention people.

Half of BBI would explode if we drafted Barr, especially if Donald is still on the board. But Barr could easily be the pick.

He is best suited to be a 3-4 OLB, but could start out as a pass rushing DE in a 4-3. He is 6'5", and weighs 255. Ten more pounds of muscle could easily be added to that frame once he's in an NFL weight training program.

He is a terror off the edge.

He has made astonishing progress as a defensive player, despite only playing two years on that side of the ball. As far as him being lost in space, we aren't going to play him at LB so that doesn't matter.

We need a DE. This is probably the last year for Kiwi, we may not be able to resign JPP, and we don't know what we have in Moore.

Reese also isn't afraid to use high round picks on players with huge upside. See JPP.

I think it's moot though, because the Titans will probably take him at #11. They run a 3-4 now IIRC.

I agree we will see 3-3-5 plenty as we have in the past...

But Say we play the Broncos again...Seahawks....49ers....Eagles)

Fewell has shown he'll tailor his base to the opponent. He isn't just a Tampa 2 guy like his mentor Lovie

A package that can be very effective this year is a Big Dime:

LDE - Jason Pierre-Paul
LDT -Johnathan Hankins
RDT - Cullen Jenkins
RDE - Damontre Moore (Kiwi almost cut, Moore's our break-out player)

slot CB - Walter Thurmond III
MLB - Jon Beason
slot hybrid - Antrel Rolle

shadowing #1 WR - DRC
other side - Prince Amukamara
FS - Will Hill
SS (buzzing) - Stevie Brown

Not a lot of warm & fuzzy places to go with the football

3-3-5 is a good package for covering the pass. But, why would you draft a guy at #12 who would only play in a package as opposed to a player who fits your base defense? I guess it's just a matter of opinion. But, realistically teams are still going to try and run the football. The Seahawks who just won the damn Superbowl were a power running football team. As were arguably the 2nd best team in the NFL the 49ers. Physicality still wins football games no matter how much teams want to spread you out and throw it all over. Same goes for defense, exotic defenses are nice and all but when it comes down to it if you can line up in your base D and dominate the LOS it doesn't matter what the offense is going to run.

when they watch Barr play.

about spending a 1st round pick on a raw talent to play that position.

Bit I dobt think he's a DE in any scheme we here BBI dream up.

In comment 11594216 area junc said:

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I agree we will see 3-3-5 plenty as we have in the past... But Say we play the Broncos again...Seahawks....49ers....Eagles) Fewell has shown he'll tailor his base to the opponent. He isn't just a Tampa 2 guy like his mentor Lovie A package that can be very effective this year is a Big Dime: LDE - Jason Pierre-Paul LDT -Johnathan Hankins RDT - Cullen Jenkins RDE - Damontre Moore (Kiwi almost cut, Moore's our break-out player) slot CB - Walter Thurmond III MLB - Jon Beason slot hybrid - Antrel Rolle shadowing #1 WR - DRC other side - Prince Amukamara FS - Will Hill SS (buzzing) - Stevie Brown Not a lot of warm & fuzzy places to go with the football

Good presentation.

In comment 11594147 Dragon said:

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Is one of the top five physical players in this draft and the idea that he can't play in a 4-3 is foolish. If drafted he becomes our best LB at that point hands down where you put him on the field really is not important.

I disagree with that. Anytime I watch Barr I see someone who has superior athleticism, but struggles to get off blocks. I don't see a physical player more then I see a finesse. Many plays he catches blocks, and waits until the play is even with him so that he can use his speed to run away from the block he's engaged in. He's so athletic he gets away with this, and usually makes the plays. In the NFL he won't get away with that. He's a pass rusher and one of the better ones in the draft, but he's not going to be a player that dominates the point of attack.

Nearly every defensive prospect has some trouble disengaging blockers to some extent.

It's because they 1) havent been tought proper punch techniques and/or are inconsistent using their hands, and; 2) they haven't fully grown into their frames. The guys who don't are top of the draft blue chippers. And even some of those guys flame out at the next level.

It's like you guys expect perfect football specimins at each pick. These guys are all largely unfinished products. Even guys like Watkins and Clowney.

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He is a fluid and flexible runner who plays at a low pad level and has proven to be very successful playing off the edge. Even with his long arms, when he works in-line, he struggles to disengage when the larger blockers lock on to him. However, he shows excellent snap anticipation ability and easily eludes blockers with his initial burst into the backfield. When he gets an edge on an offensive lineman's shoulder, he is quick to turn the corner and shows urgency closing on the passer. Can make opposite field plays due to his acceleration and has exceptional ability to come off the edge to collapse the pocket and reach the quarterback. He is a superb chase guy who moves easily coming from the backside. Despite giving up considerable bulk to offensive linemen, he has the strength to get a good push off blocks, redirect and string plays out. He is relentless in pursuit and does a nice job of staying low in his pads to deliver crunching tackles on the move. Is instinctive and plays with good field vision. Shows nice flexibility to leverage at the point of attack and has the lateral slide to avoid blocks on the move. He is a solid wrap-up tackler who can punish runners with his hitting ability. He shows good hand usage and extension to stave off the blockers trying to get into his chest, but if they lock on, he can be neutralized. He will then try to overcompensate, taking wrong angles to the ball or fail to control his momentum by getting too far upfield to make the play. Has a very strong hand punch and good arm extension. He is strong at the point and knows how to squeeze and leverage blockers. He has raw pass rush technique and needs to develop better counter moves, as he relies mostly on his sudden burst to make plays in the backfield. He lacks polish in his backpedal and is not experienced in dropping back while in man coverage. Knows how to use his hands to reroute tight ends and backs in the short area, but will bite on play action and eyes the quarterback too long when having to play in zone coverage. He is better suited playing in space and on the move. He will make a lot of his plays coming from the backside, but when he gets too high in his stance, he will struggle to disengage trying to shoot the inside gaps.

Demarcus Ware relied a lot on his athletic ability too, but he turned out to be pretty good.

The joker role is NOT what Tuck played. He played LDE and at times he went inside to DT on passing downs. It was more often Keith Rivers actually in that role, and despite sucking early he actually got much better down the stretch and was starting to make an impact.

THat said, it's not the centerpiece of this defense and your idea to draft a tweener who quite simply isn't that special of a talent and ditch your base 4-3 for a made up formation you don't even know how to identify...and that's an idea to you?

Versatile players who defy categorization is the way of the future.

Yeah, there have been no tweeners in the NFL ever and no one has ever used a player at multiple spots because of flexibility. DId you just land here from planet stupid and watch one football game?

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Strongly-built with long arms to keep himself off offensive linemen when playing against the run. Very smooth in pass drops, staying low in his backpedal and getting into depth at the proper angles. Good hands for the interception, and can break up passes using his hands or a big hit over the middle. Plays the nine-technique very well, ripping off the tackle's block and getting to the ballcarrier on inside and outside runs. Also closes on the ball quickly when playing in the stack. Able to shed blocks and go through backs on blitzes. Will pop the fullback and create a pile to stuff inside runs. Shows good awareness on misdirection, quickly diagnosing plays and affecting the success of the play.

This guy was supposedly as safe a pick as it gets in the draft and was drafted by a team who gets a lot of credit for it's drafting.

Aaron Curry.

In comment 11594289 Modus Operandi said:

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Nearly every defensive prospect has some trouble disengaging blockers to some extent. It's because they 1) havent been tought proper punch techniques and/or are inconsistent using their hands, and; 2) they haven't fully grown into their frames. The guys who don't are top of the draft blue chippers. And even some of those guys flame out at the next level. It's like you guys expect perfect football specimins at each pick. These guys are all largely unfinished products. Even guys like Watkins and Clowney.

I'm not trying to play devils advocate here. Because as a player I don't dislike Barr. I think he's going to be a good player. I'm just stating what I see when I watch him. But, to say at a top level D1 football program they are not being taught proper technique is insane. What do you think they do at practice? Just let the players run around using athletic ability and no knowledge of the game. Yeah players will get blocked, miss a tackle, and make a mistake. No ones perfect. And yes Barr can grow and become more physical. But, right now that's the I feel he is. If the Giants think they can develop him to what they need then that's great. As of now Barr isn't near one of the most physical players in this draft. Not a knock, just not the way he played or was asked to play at UCLA.

wouldn't draft Barr. Not at all. I'm just saying I wouldn't be surprised if Reese did.

Barr's strengths and weaknesses pretty clearly project him to OLB in a 3-4 scheme.

Further, NYG runs a 4-3 coordinated by a coach who's never really had any success, or shown a skill deploying an elephant rusher. Which is what Barr would be unless he can demonstrate the power base, physicality at the POA, and a willingness to play a spot where he's not simply pointed downhill at the QB. PF is a very vanilla caller when it comes to DL stunts, and his blitz packages leave a ton to be desired. Imv.

Most likely a square peg and a round hole.

I'm shocked that you're shocked.

Every single one of these guys comes out of the college ranks with flaws. If D1 teams cared all that much about readying their playersfor the pro league, there wouldn't be such a proliferation of spread offenses.

QBs would run pro-style offenses and WR would be taught proper route-running and would run full trees. RBs would know how to pass block. Fact is, these schools looks for explosive athletes and care about winning first. Of course, not all the blame is on the coaches. A lot of these guys come out too early and there's only so much you can teach a guy in 2 years.

Again, a lot of these guys get by on their natural talent and it takes professional coaching, time, and competition againsts other top athletes to teach these guys that there's more to being successful in the pros than being the biggest or fastest player.

In comment 11594355 JonC said:

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Barr's strengths and weaknesses pretty clearly project him to OLB in a 3-4 scheme. Further, NYG runs a 4-3 coordinated by a coach who's never really had any success, or shown a skill deploying an elephant rusher. Which is what Barr would be unless he can demonstrate the power base, physicality at the POA, and a willingness to play a spot where he's not simply pointed downhill at the QB. PF is a very vanilla caller when it comes to DL stunts, and his blitz packages leave a ton to be desired. Imv. Most likely a square peg and a round hole.

It can be argued that PF never really had a played on the roster who could excel or present a true threat from such a role.

One thing that can't be measured at combines or or draft profiles is desire to succeed. Passion for the game. Professionalism.

The fact that Barr transitioned from RB to LB, learning not only a new position, but playing a different side of the ball altogether and succeeding at such a high level shows me more than some anecdotal evidence that he can't shed blocks.

PF is a 4-3 Tampa 2 descendent, and he really hasn't gotten very far away from it with NYG. His front seven calls, as well as his DL stunts and blitz packages are very vanilla. He schemes from the safeties forward and always has. His DEs frequently play contain first, and his OLBs are often very limited in deployment. Red Dog posted in great detail here before PF was ever hired, as well.

The scheme where Barr would be deployed as an elephant isn't one PF would typically run. He's tried in the past to get Kiwanuka involved, not much else in terms of demonstrated proof.

Deploying Barr off the edge with his hand in the dirt is still typically a 3-4 look.

If NYG drafts him and says he's a 4-3 DE in their eyes, so be it.

typically a 3-4 look, for those who draw the comparisons to Ware.

or just LB in college?

Agree on tendencies, but that doesn't mean those can't change. Our strengths on defense, at least the last two seasons have been the versatility of our safeties. And even then, more often than not, they've been used to mask the deficiencies of our corners. Gilbride was a run and shoot disciple, but the offense he employed here was one that was quite different.

Further, I'm sure you'd agree that Kiwi was never really a fit for the role. He never quite had the lateral quickness to be a LB and never displayed enough of a tenacity or repertoire to be an impact DE. It always seemed we never really had a clue how to deploy him. Prevailing thought here is that we ruined him by moving him back and forth, but I'm not sure I buy that. A good player rises to the occasion.

I'm not necessarily comparing him to Ware. I was merely responding to an earlier post knocking him for a perceived inability to shed blocks. Assuming any of these guys are finished products, without flaw, is an unrealistic expectation.

Mainly OLB, but he goes down hill and bends real well. He reminds me very much of Derrick Thomas. Derrick Thomas was considered a LB but rarely dropped into coverage which is why he didn't get his first sack until his 10 th year in the NFL. IMO, Barr has the ability to play RDE in the NFL.

Also, I took the time to look up stories on Barr, it was his idea to switch to LB. he met with Coach Mora and told him right before Mora was going to suggest it. I assumed he played LB in high school, but I guess he had not played LB since 9th grade.

Thought it was interesting.

But that's the thing, tendencies typically don't change once a player reaches the NFL, that's why projections need to not be a gamble of sorts. Most players really aren't frequently schematically flexible, it's why they often wash out from one team more quickly than ever.

The problem was Kiwanuka not being capable we agree, but it still doesn't mean PF can actually deploy the schematic changes. There's nothing that suggests he can (or can't, admittedly), but I'd prefer proof in the pudding.

As to Ware, it's more of a general comment to those who reference Ware.

actually less concerned about what Reese does in the first round than what he does in the rest of the draft.

Most of the mistakes have come later in the draft, but Reese has a very good record with first round picks. JPP, Prince, and Pugh. Wilson admittedly not so much, although he's had several explosive moments, and could still develop.

in the NFL.

It is plain as day that the average OL player has grown like hell, while remaining as athletic, while the line for linebackers has been fairly flat.

Also, as we started using Kiwi as w linebacker, or showing 4 aces, you could see teams holding an extra player in pass protection.

At the end of our skinny ball, we became weak at run defense, then....fixed that with vanilla, and became weak as pass rush, a damn shame.

My move to pushing a true 5-1-5, as opposed to the barbiecarpenters idea, is based on all the above.

think of it as a 46, but with a true defensive end, 270lbs or more, instead of a 'little' 'studlb'...what some might call a sam or pass rushing LB....to better combat 330lb OTs and allow more aggressive tactics on any gap on the line at any time.

my current version has 3 DTs of varied types at varied gap spots, 2 true defensive ends, 1 linebacker and 5 defensive backs of some kind, depending.

the old 46 was killer against the run, I think my 5-1-5 would allow players like hank to attack in the interior gaps, while the defensive ends would be much less likely to see any double teams.

if you deployed it, and were not aggressive and creative at the line, attacking gaps and taking advantage, with only one LB, it could suck.

like all formations, you need to implement it and wisely.

However, working from the DL back would suit this team (with a few more pieces) rather than relying on fancy DB schemes.

Having said that, I would not just jettison ALL the db work done to date.

Was supposed to be " first interception ".....DT had many sacks obviously.

What do u think about using Cooper Taylor at linebacker in nickel or 3rd down situations. If u like versatility, speed and size he might fit in these packages. When teams spread us out he might be an asset in these schemes. I like him and with all the bodies in the backfield I'd like to see them use him more.