I must preface by saying that I am a Jerry Reese fan and I really like what he has done this offseason. The only contract I might question him about even a little bit is the Rodgers-Cromartie deal simply because he can be a little inconsistent but hopefully he can build on the excellent season he had least year and perhaps he turned the corner and is now an upper-echelon CB. With Schwartz, Rodger-Cromartie, Walton, Thurmond, Jennings, McClain, Demps, Jerry, Holliday and Manningham (along with the players he has re-signed) he has upgraded the talent on this team which is all a fan can ask for. Could he use some depth at TE, WR, DT, DE and OLB among other positions? Yes, but there is still the draft and a second wave of free agency.
But enough about free agency as a whole being that this thread is about the process of rebuilding the offensive line. The offensive line was obviously a mess last season and a weak point even going into the year. Injuries made the unit even worse and it was the main culprit for a brutal offensive performance. No running game to speak of and an inability to protect the QB was frustrating for all involved.
So let’s take a look at the improvements made. We have to realize that none of us have any idea what type of offense McAdoo is going to install so we aren’t sure what type of linemen he will like but for the sake of this argument let’s just say he will use a similar type of athletic, strong, tough, versatile lineman that Coughlin has used in the past.
I would assume that the depth chart at this very moment (without the draft) looks something like this:
Beatty/Schwartz/Walton/Snee/Pugh
Goodin/Mosley/Reynolds/Herman/Jerry
Walton: I want to start at center because many fans and media members aren’t thrilled with the signing of Walton. It may have been a little pricey for a player in his situation, but I love this move. This might just be my favorite acquisition. When he was waived by Denver at the end of last season, I was yelling and screaming for the team to put in a claim for this guy before Washington eventually picked him up. If he has gotten his ankle healthy enough, which it looks like he has, this guy can be one of the better centers in the league. He is pretty athletic with good feet. He is a strong player, and a great technician who can get to the second level. He has a nasty streak which I love in offensive linemen, and can be rare with centers. He is strong with heavy hands and finishes his blocks. He is a very smart player with good intangibles; solid in pass protect and a very good run blocker. He isn’t a mauler, but very few centers are. At times he can get a little too high and lunge and players but that can be corrected. I think this guy was a great, smart, under the radar signing by Reese and I am excited to see what he can do with Pat Flaherty. I understand there is a risk with a player coming back from this type of injury (which is why so many people are down on this move) but I think he will fit the scheme well (whatever it might be) and he is an upgrade over Baas. I also think this guy can be better and more of a bargain than De La Puente or Dietrich-Smith. He is younger, cheaper and potentially healthier than Baas as well. Ironically enough, he drew comparisons to Shawn O’Hara when coming out of Baylor.
Reynolds: I am higher on Reynolds than most. I don’t think he is a starting caliber player, but he is solid depth. Put it this way; I don’t think he is any better or any worse than Boothe, but yet he is cheaper and younger. I personally thought Boothe was serviceable but could be improved upon. Boothe’s best position was probably center and even though he was a guard by trade, I thought when he was at guard he was inconsistent. He even got some looks at tackle out of Cornell with Oakland but he was overmatched. Reynolds is clearly limited athletically, but I was pleasantly surprised when he was called into action last season. He might be knocked off the roster if the team decides to draft a center in the middle rounds, but he is versatile and skilled enough to be solid depth if need be.
Schwartz: I think the team knows what it is getting with the Schwartz signing, hence the reason why he was signed so quickly and given the deal he was. With that in mind, I won’t spend a lot of time discussing him. If the Walton move wasn’t my favorite, than this one was. He graded out wonderfully this past season and has turned into an upper echelon guard. He is the type of linemen that this team loves: strong, smart, versatile and plays with a nasty streak. Maybe he isn’t as naturally gifted as Snee was in his prime, but they are very similar players. He is very good in pass protection and a mauler in the run game. I think his presence alone will help this line come together.
Herman: I like Herman and I think he has potential. This will be an important season for him; let’s see how much he developed as a rookie on the practice squad. I really hope this kid can put it together because I think he can be excellent depth at guard and a potential insurance policy or replacement for Snee. Truth be told, this is probably a big year for Herman because if a guard is drafted early, he can easily find himself off the roster. It’s time for Herman to turn his potential into talent. We know about his strength, his ability to maul and pancake with his run blocking ability but he needs to improve his pass protection. It very well may come down to a competition between Herman and Mosely for backup guard spot.
Mosley: Mosley flashed before his injury and is a much more polished player than Herman even though he isn’t the mauler that Herman is and he doesn’t have the strength that Herman does. He has good size and good athleticism. He doesn’t do anything particularly great, but he also doesn’t have a ton of weaknesses. He is a solid player, but much like Herman, he needs to put it all together, stay on the field and compete for playing time. Probably more of a lock for the roster than Herman but still, if a guard is drafted in the middle rounds, Mosley might find himself buried on the depth chart or even looking for a job. Mosley is versatile which helps his cause, so I wonder if he has some potential to play tackle or maybe even center if need be. Mosley is a wild card. Hopefully he can take a big step forward. He can solve some of the question marks about this offensive line if he can put it all together this year.
Snee: Snee is Snee. Even if he doesn’t have the sheer strength and ability to dominate as he once did, I think he can still be a very solid guard as long as he can stay healthy. In probably his last season, he has to find some new ways to get it done. I think he can get by on his experience and technique and he can help mentor some of the younger players; specifically the younger guards. Unfortunately, that is a big question at this point in his career; can he stay healthy? Snee’s situation really makes the development of Mosley and Herman imperative. I think we will find out what the team thinks of Mosley and Herman depending on how early they draft a guard this year. I also hope that if he struggles, the coaching staff doesn’t hesitate to put a younger player at right guard if he earned it and beat out Snee.
Brewer: I think Brewer has an uphill battle to make the roster. Mosley and Herman should overtake him if their development continues. He couldn’t cut it at tackle, and then really struggled at guard as well. It might be time for the team to move on. He is a very big man, but not nearly tough enough which is frustrating.
Goodin: He flashed at times in camp and at practice, but he looked to be buried on the depth chart. Then at the end of last season, he was forced onto the field due to the plethora of injuries up front and he held up very well. He has good size and good strength so it will be very interesting to see what he looks like this coming season. I wonder if he opened up some eyes with his limited action at the end of last season. Also, do they view him as a guard or as a tackle? He has played all 5 positions which will help his case. Can he be a swing tackle? Can he be a backup guard? Could he even be a possibility at center? I think he has at least earned his way into the conversation.
Jerry: Here is another wildcard. I’m guessing he was signed to take the place of Boothe and be that veteran tackle and guard backup that can step in and start in a pinch. But he is full of questions as well. He has had weight problems and he as inconsistent with Miami the last few years. Can he be physical enough? What position does the team have in mind for him? He is a good athlete and he can pull and trap. His run blocking and pass blocking are good, but he just seems to have lapses in concentration and technique at times. All this paired with the bullying issues makes for an interesting battle.
Pugh: Pugh is Pugh. He is very solid. He grew and improved with each and every snap last year. Hopefully that progression continues. If he continues to develop and improve, he can easily be the best linemen on this roster and one of the better linemen in the league. The biggest question is what are the plans for him? Is he a right tackle? Can he make a transition to left tackle? Do they think he is an option at guard? Even though he is not a mauler, he is smart, very athletic, and a technician. He plays with a mean streak and he is relentless which is what makes him so good. His game is all about effort and preparation. He is a very solid player with room to improve.
Beatty: I think this is the biggest question along the offensive line and potentially the biggest question on the team. He looked so poor during some games last season that he was a total liability and should have been benched. I wasn’t sure about him when he was drafted as he looked a little soft at times at UConn, but his athleticism is off the charts which is extremely helpful for a left tackle. He is not a mauler and plays with limited physical aspects to his game. Being that he is not aggressive enough in the run game and since he was never a power player, if his athleticism is off, then he becomes a below average player (which we saw last season). His technique was also very poor last year which contributed to his difficulties. Now to add on his extensive injury history: back, foot, eye and leg. Pair his injury history with the big contract he got last offseason and the team is really in a bind with Beatty. I think that they would be foolish to count on him. He may not be ready for the beginning of the year and even if he is, his play might not be where it needs to be. I think the team needs a fallback plan (maybe even more than one) and they have to have options at left tackle. A tackle capable of playing the left side should probably be drafted and an open competition has to be held in camp. I’m really not sure what the solution is if Beatty isn’t the answer. Can Jerry play left tackle? Pugh? Goodin? Mosley? Schwartz? Maybe a veteran insurance policy a la Sean Locklear a few years ago is in the cards via free agency. Those options could include Tony Pashos, Eric Winston or Charles Brown.
In summary, I think the rebuilding of the offensive line has been a success. Sure, they could use a few more bodies to try and eliminate some of the question marks, but they have put themselves into a good position. There is depth and talent. A lot depends on the growth and progression of young players like Goodin, Herman and Mosley. We just have to wait and see how left tackle and how the Will Beatty situation plays out. As far as the draft, I think they will take at least one tackle and potentially an interior lineman as well. With the draft being especially deep at tackle, the team is in a good position moving forward.
A lot depends on Beatty. Will he be healthy? And if so, was last year a fluke? I tend to believe it was.
Overall, you are way too optimistic. I'll be happy with an adequate line next year.
With the salary cap, it isn't possible to have an all-pro at every position along the line. I personally think that Reese did a good job rebuilding and I like the young players he targeted. That's my opinion and you are entitled to yours as well.
There are still some solid names out there in free agency and the draft is coming up so my guess is that there will still be some new names to come along.
An offensive line is more than the sum of it's parts and I like that Reese has collected a group of athletic, big, strong linemen that play with a nasty streak. If they can work together and be a cohesive unit, then I personally think they have potential to be successful.
Pugh stays at RT
That info paired with what I know about him and some scouting reports I have read is where I came up with my opinion.
The answer is at least 1/1+ OL FAs to be signed, and 2, likely rd.1-2/1-3, in the draft, AND 2 UFDA.
The best 11 make the team. May the ones that best make the new O work win!
Camp fights will happen. Gotta love it.
Gotta protect Eli.
The analysis was a little optimistic I some cases but pretty good generally.
FWIW: Of what I saw of Walton in Bronco games, he fits what we perceive as our new O.
I think any analysis of the O line has to wait until after the draft.
I hope it was a fluke and I hope Beatty proves me wrong because it will be a big step backwards and a huge hole if he can't get back to where he was. It was just very discouraging to see just how drastically he regressed last season.
I personally was never too high on him, but again, nothing would make me happier than to have him earn his contract.
I agree that since Pugh has had success at right tackle, he should probably stay there, but part of me wonders, what if he can make the transition to left tackle and play well?
It looks as if he has the agility, technique and ability to play that side, so it just makes me wonder.
It would be a lot easier to find a right tackle than a left tackle if Pugh can play the left side.
Granted we haven't even seen him on the field yet but he is saying all the right things.
I guess what I am trying to say is that I trust Snee and his abilities coming off of an injury more than I trust Beatty and his abilities coming off of his injury for example.
It is a gamble and a risk, I understand that, but these guys have ability, hopefully they can put it together this year.
If some of these guys develop (Mosley, Herman, Goodin) then it can really help the situation.
I think that is actually a good question; I hate to be critical of the great Pat Flaherty, but why does it seem as if a lot of these young linemen are having difficulty taking the next step?
I think tackle and a guard or center will be addressed, but the line as a whole isn't as bad as some may think. Some players might just surprise some people come August.
I might even go as far to say that that starting line is intact as of now and it would be difficult for any rookie to crack that starting line.
I do like our moves so far this offseason, with Jerry the real wild card here. But I'm still hoping that we can add two OL in the draft, one coming in the first two rounds.
There are 5 linemen in a traditional set and I believe we are fine with Pugh and Schwartz.
That makes 2/5 = 40%.
I agree with 40% of your bottom-line conclusion.
Regrettably, the remaining 60% gets us to 6 wins in 2014.
We will be drafting o-line early and often not only THIS May, but the next May as well!
If Snee regains his form or reasonably so, I doubt this would be his last year. For an OL, he is not old..The question is, will he?
I believe the Giants are high on Mosely and if ready to go will continue to develop, imv
Unlike many here, I do not believe Beatty's injury was "significant" as many have alleged. If it was a clean break, he should be good to go. I have not heard anything relating to complications..This is a pivotal year for WB. We'll get to see this year which season, '12 or '13 was the aberration
Then ther's the draft....
In my mind, the person with the biggest task this year is Flaherty. He's got to get all these pieces working together well.
Here is what I see:
Beatty: Coming back from a broken leg, and was flat awful last year.
Schwartz: Nice FA pickup.
Walton: Hasn't played in over a year, but played well when he was active. Coming back from a broken ankle.
Snee: Probably done. Backup at best.
Pugh: Solid.
Brewer has been a real disappointment, and might not even make the team. Herman just came back from hip surgery. Goodin was a UDFA, but shows promise. Not high on Reynolds. Jerry needs to stay in shape, and was part of the Jonathan Martin scandal.
If Beatty can't go, then we either have to flip Pugh to LT, start Jerry, or start a rookie.
We need a tackle IMO. We also need at least two of Mosley, Brewer, Herman, Goodin, Jerry, and Snee to play well. They all have problems as noted.
That said, I'm glad that a knowledgeable poster like Vin is high on Walton. That makes me feel better about the signing.
The thing I worry about is Reese's strategy of looking for bargains by signing guys coming off injuries. Going with Snee, Baas and Diehl is what killed the Giants last year. They threw away 20 million in cap space on guys who were too injured to play or play effectively. If they can't correctly evaluate their own injured players, what makes us think they will be accurate judges of injured players on other teams?
If guys like Walton and Schwartz can play, then I think the Giants can be a good team. But it is definitely a high risk strategy, and as Anish says, it could put Eli at risk.
Jerry Reese gambled on gimp and created a 7-win team that was really a 3-4 win team in 2013.
That's the real flaw in OP's logic.
He is merrily whistling past the facts you so well stated!
Well played Sir!
My point is he knew the line was a major issue and flawed last season. I trust his judgment as far as player evaluation and I think he fixed it rather well.
With all things considered, Reese did a good job of rebuilding this line without totally blowing the cap.
Perhaps the quick fix would have been prying Mack away from Cleveland for $10 million per year, sign Jared Veldheer for $35 million for and Branden Albert for $46 million.
If he had done all that, then the defensive backfield would be in shambles, Beason would be in Denver and they would have a great line but no one to run the ball behind it.
I think Reese did a fine job re-tooling and getting quality players for good prices.
Perhaps a vertan option at left tackle like Charles Brown is still an option but overall, the line isn't as bad as some seem to think it is.
I expect we'll add another 1-2 OL via the draft, but the likely starting OL isn't likely to instill great confidence when you review the names/pedigrees.
I do wonder what NYG thinks of Martin ...
Considering the free agent crop and what he had to work with, Reese put himself in a good position.
There are some risks because there always are with building a roster, but I personally like Walton at center and Schwartz was widely considered the best option at guard.
Charles Brown would have made me more comfortable at left tackle, but who knows. With the interest in Brown and the rumor that Schwartz could play left tackle, and the rumor that Jerry could play left tackle, perhaps they are still looking for an option there. I think there is still a veteran option coming along the line.
I'm not sure what to make of John Jerry. He has talent, but the lapses in his play are a mystery. Maybe he wasn't a scheme fit in Miami with Joe Philbin, but one would assume that Ben McAdoo (a Philbin understudy) would run a similar system.
Either way, Beatty has battled injuries throughout his tenure and his injury history, his regression and his contract are all major worries.
RE: Beatty - you might see one of the guys on the team get bounced outside to tackle (Schwartz) until they can find a long term solution there. Or, maybe Beatty snaps out of whatever was ailing him last year.
Its also why I think we are not forced into taking an OL in rd 1. We dont necessarily need an all world OL but can still get a very good pro ready one at 43 or maybe even round 3.
JonC any clues to how the Gmen feel about Donald?
Mmmm ok so I guess its been mainly Evans Ebron?
LT Beatty - he practices part-time through camp and has healed up enough to play the last pre-season game. He will have a better year as his focus returns.
LG Schwartz - solid signing, big guy, he'll be an upgrade over last year.
OC Walton - I am thinking again here that he will be healthy and he is a veteran. If he holds up and plays solid he is definitely an upgrade over last year.
RG Snee - I have a funny feeling the surgeries and long off-season with workouts will have this guy playing his best since 2010. He may not probowl but he'll be an upgrade over last year's play at RG.
RT Pugh - 2nd year improvement.
Now, Jerry would be the key backup at OT / OG and a rookie or two will make the team at OT / OG / OC. We really need to draft two solid backup offensive lineman who can play some this year and definitely next year when Snee retires.
Just one thing.
If a nay sayer turns out to be correct, what he said is not nay saying. It was just correct.
Putting together a competitive team, of course, isn't about optimism or pessimism. It's taking a hard, cold, calculating view of what needs to be worked on, and what does not.
The OP's calculation is that we're better off than we think along the offensive line.
Some on this thread don't believe the OP has made the right calculation.
Is that nay saying?
I am just not as happy with Reese as your are.
That might be a colossal understatement.
...ahhh, got it.
With the salary cap, it isn't possible to have an all-pro at every position along the line. I personally think that Reese did a good job rebuilding and I like the young players he targeted. That's my opinion and you are entitled to yours as well.
;
There are still some solid names out there in free agency and the draft is coming up so my guess is that there will still be some new names to come along.
An offensive line is more than the sum of it's parts and I like that Reese has collected a group of athletic, big, strong linemen that play with a nasty streak. If they can work together and be a cohesive unit, then I personally think they have potential to be successful.
Well if we roll out with that similar nonesense of an OL I expect Eli will get killed. We need to go OL in the draft and upgrade the ever living shit out the OL,which right now....sucks.
Yes you're opinion is not in question. The OL is in question and that to me is god awful. Ross needs to hit a home run in this draft. If we roll out with a sub par OL it will get ELi killed.
I really would like Lewan or Martin. Maybe even Gabe Jackson or The ULCA guard.
There has to be a big time effort to draft OL.
Giants may look at additional depth from second wave free agency in addition to drafting one or two new linemen.
...been a BBIer for 16 or 17 years and I've never seen IMO more misplaced faith that the current Giants offense line is now "OK" with the FA acquisitions they've made.
IMO, nothing could be further from the truth.
It has been a 3-year spiral downward for this unit and in order to reverse that trend Jerry Reese must be on the top of his game come this Draft and the 2015 Draft.
...IMO James Brewer is a journeyman back-up and I don't mean second team backup either.
He's just another mid-round o-line pick by Jerry Reese that didn't pan out.
The pro game just hasn't come easy to this mountain of a man.
As for Beatty, his season was not a fluke. There are no fluke seasons. There are fluke plays or even fluke games. But not seasons. The accident comment above relating to Beatty is the unfortunate observation that George Young left for posterity. GY tried to distinguish between accidents and injuries. With all due respect to his memory, his distinction was bullshit. Injuries are injuries. Diehl went to the starting gate how many consecutive games? Beatty could conceivably come back and play well. That's possible. But I wouldn't count on it. He's on the team this season. He gets another chance. Good for him. I didn't call him soft. Neither did you. Nor Skip Bayless, Francesca or anybody else in the media. His former OC gave him that damning characterization. So keep that in mind.
Finally no mention of the tight ends, who are part of the offensive line , especially when your quarterback is 34 and can't run. What can be said about the new offense and it's neophyte coordinator is that Rodgers isn't going to be back there , extending plays and running to the yardsticks on third down to convert. Pressures are almost a certainly . There is no certifiable deep threat on this team. Victor gets deep on people with set-up moves, quick breaks and disciplined routes. But not with speed. Why bring it up? The TE's regardless of system are going to be doing quite a bit of pass blocking .
As for Snee,it would be great if he could give us a good season,even if he did we still need to find a long term solution at RG.The guys who were backups on last years disaster ,hopefully one or two can be serviceable backups going forward.
I am optimistic that JR will continue to fix this line in the draft.
Ok cool so if a season can't be a fluke then what do you characterize his 2012 season? If that isnt a fluke either then He proved he is capable of playing quite well.
...yep.
Seen a million threads on BBI thumping the table for Ebron at 12 while our offensive line is one suck-wind away from getting our franchise QB destroyed.
I don't get it either.
If we somehow, someway go Ebron at 12, we sure as heck better go O-line in rounds 2 and 3 or 2 and 4, and then patiently wait until next year for a couple more high picks along this disaster of a line.
That is -- with maybe the exception of Pugh -- we have NO star talent on this line.
None.
So how does Eli Manning get back to where he once was with no holes for our running backs and no clean pockets to step up into?
We need to draft high level o-line talent. There's just no other way around that.
And high level star talent comes with high draft picks. Several of them.
Depend upon it.
The best lines work cohesively as a unit and the sum of the parts does not have to be greater than the whole. The best lines are a group of solid players that know their assignments and have solid technique.
This team had one of the greatest offensive lines ever in 2008 with two 1000 yard rushers and they had a combination of blue collar, work man like players and not a single star. Two undarafted players. The highest drafted player was the 3rd round.
Anyway, yes, the team needs to protect themselves and draft at least another linemen but I think Reese has done a good job rebuilding.
Schwartz has to be better than what we were throwing out there last year....
We replaced an injury prone center, with one who had/has a bad ankle...
If we are depending on Snee, we are in trouble...
Pugh has to continue to improve.....
and a huge part of the OL, is a TE that can block.....
There are virtually no backups on this OL....one injury, and this fragile line falls apart....
Possibly three new starters and TE, ......how many games will it take before this line starts to gel?
McK was a star.
And if O'Hara wasn't a "star" he was damn close.
We also had a younger, healthier Diehl and Seubert, both of whom in 2008 were much better than anything we had in 2013, save Pugh.
I don't think you want to pull 2008 into this debate. Our current line is a pale, ugly ghost to '08!
Three fifths of the starting OL are question marks.
What if Beatty, Snee and Walton don't regain form? That's entirely possible and would mean a shitty OL. The Giants have to be prepared for that worst case scenario.
I think they need at very least another starting OL.
Well played my ass. Oip just posts the usual shit on Reese post that insults everyone's intelligence. Get on Reese for missing on some drafted OL, get on him for restructuring Baas but to sit here and act like Reese was stubbornly pissing in the wind last offseason is just ridiculous and tiresome. Reese gambled because that was really his only play. What the fuck else was he gonna do? Eat 10 plus million in cap space and sign some stud FA? Wasn't happening.
The big failure last year, after the injuries to snee and baas and Andre brown and Wilson was in the play of three or four men-- brewer, Beatty, whoever played center and probably Mosley. It was a perfect storm of failure. Putting it all on snee and baas and Diehl is lazy and convenient but it's not necessarily true.
This year we could and should have better running backs and if Wilson can emerge, and I have a feeling he will, the oline will look a lot better without even factoring in the improved talent upfront.
Makes you/us wonder why the owner claimed "nobody saw this coming" after an 0-6 start. The OL was a shuffling mess in both the 3rd and 4th preseason game as it was obvious they couldn't find anybody who could block.
Whatever. The purpose of my post wasn't to necessarily defend Reese it was to point out that the OL was doomed to fail long before snee and baas were retained. The problems with this offense went far deeper .
My main point from the original post was that the line is in better shape now than it was in December. If some guys stay healrhy, and young players step up, I like the potential of this group.
To think Reese could just wave a magic wand and create a line full of pro bowl players and sign four new guys and keep Pugh is unrealistic.
He had very little room to move last year and tried to get another a season out of Snee Diehl and Baas. It didn't work but now he is collecting solid linemen to go compete for jobs and he isn't done collecting yet.
If the giants like Zach Martin, shit whoever they like, if they draft that guy in round 1 or 2 I'd feel much better about this line. 3 major additions and then you would basically be hoping that Beatty returns to form and/or Mosley, snee or a young player emerge.
Draft is loaded with interior linemen and we very well might be able to get a tackle at 12.
If the giants like Zach Martin, shit whoever they like, if they draft that guy in round 1 or 2 I'd feel much better about this line. 3 major additions and then you would basically be hoping that Beatty returns to form and/or Mosley, snee or a young player emerge.
Draft is loaded with interior linemen and we very well might be able to get a tackle at 12.
Great thing about this draft is we can go Donald/Ebron/Evans/Lee round 1 a still get a bigtime OL at 43
I really just want players out of this draft but one more blue chip OL would be nice. Probably a necessity. Teams, NYG included, seem to draft with at least some needs in mind during round 1 and then strictly follow the BPA philosophy as the draft progresses. That's why I could see them taking Martin in round 1 and then they just go for pure talents the rest of the way, needs be damned.
And tight end...
...exactly!
I first said we needed star talent on this offensive line. You then mention that the 2008 line wasn't filled with stars. I then pointed out how Snee/McK were stars.
You then say the 2008 line was the best line in your memory and that we can't compare our current line to that one. But then you parse the word, "star" and the way you define it excludes everyone, including maybe even Snee (from 2008.)
Here is your error: WHO said anything about a "star" offensive lineman having to be a "blue chip, perennial pro-bowler". That's just too much!
If Snee and McK and O'Hara weren't "stars", then what we've got on the current o-line is something hovering between swill and dog shit.
One more thing. You say we're in better shape than we were in December. Well, maybe we are. But excuse me if I don't get too excited about the "potential" of this group. Right now, it is several steps below the "non-star" (your definition) group of 2008.
Incidentally, you also set up a second straw man by saying that Jerry Reese can't simply, "...wave a magic wand and create a line full of pro bowl players and sign four new guys and keep Pugh is unrealistic."
Frankly, by your definition of the 2008 line -- the greatest one in your memory -- we don't NEED pro bowl players. And as for Jerry Reese waving his magic wand, you almost make it sound like we're asking him to do the impossible.
No... WE ARE NOT! We are asking our General Manager to:
(1) Stop gambling with old, injured linemen;
(2) Stop neglecting this unit by failing to devote high draft picks to it; and,
(3) Stop striking out on the poor offensive lineman you do select in the middle rounds.
Maybe Reese who'd try drafting an OL before round 4 not just once every 7 years. He doesn't invest in premium picks in that unit when you look at where he does. DL, DB, and WR and it's not close.
And let's face it, he drafted Pugh out of desperation. Thank God he looks solid. Btw I think it's interesting that that people se em. to have just penciled Pugh in as some pro bowl level player. He was the least shitty out of a pathetic bunch. He may develop as hoped but I'm not sure he's not still better on the inside.
Reese's plan for the OL is hardly be one which allows people to rest easy and assume it's going to all work out. It may but at this time thinking the OL is massively better is beyond Pollyanna
As it stands now, I hope the Giants come out of this draft with two of these three types of players:
1. An OT versatile enough to kick inside if need be (Martin, Bitonio, Moses, Mewhort).
2. An OT...period (Lewan, Kuandijo, Hurst, James).
3. A C/OG (Richburg, Martin, Ikard, Harrison).
That said Jupiter makes a great point that with all the OL talent in this draft some good veterans may be released. But I'd rather rebuild with youth and take them in the draft to build a solid cohesive unit for the next several years.
What I'd love to see in this draft for the first three picks are two great OL guys and a TE that is an excellent blocker.
2) If Reese has made some mistakes in OL talent management, he's still a top-tier GM. He needs to learn from the debacle and start prioritizing OL again.
3) The depth is paper-thin on the OL. What if Schwartz or Pugh get injured in pre-season? Those things are known to happen. If they happen, the Giants 2014 OL has a decent chance of approaching the 2013 OL in sheer incompetence. That will spell the end of the Couglin and Manning eras in New York.
So for me, the causation directionality points the other way. The 2013 Giants HBs didn't submarine the team, the OL submarined the running game and hence made the entire offense go south.
Anyone else agree with me about Wilson?
That's how I feel about drafting freaking Donald at 12.
the Giants were backed into a corner last year?
How about ignoring the OL for years? How about going out and signing Meyers, a TE that couldn't block your grandmother? Starting the season without a viable linebacker? Overpaying for Baas wasn't learned and following that up by overpaying for Beatty? If the GM was backed into a corner, it was because he started painting at the doorway....
Injuries, age and just bad luck killed us last year.
You could make a case that now that the Giants have a new TE coach (as well as a new OC that used to be a TE coach), they're going to change the way they value TEs, and look for receivers first, blockers second, which seems to be the way the NFL is going now. But there's really no way to know this until they're on the clock and a guy like Ebron is still on the board.
A good receiving TE can be a QB's best friend, but to me, a better friend would be a dominant running game, which is why I prefer a more traditional TE.
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I promise you I will throw the f*****g remote -- and I try to stay calm in these situations. Taking a TE who can't block or catch particularly well in a talent-loaded draft like this one is inexcusable.
That's how I feel about drafting freaking Donald at 12.
Your an offense guy. I don't blame you for feeling that way ;)
But Donald could very well be clear cut BPA when we pick
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In comment 11596898 cosmicj said:
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I promise you I will throw the f*****g remote -- and I try to stay calm in these situations. Taking a TE who can't block or catch particularly well in a talent-loaded draft like this one is inexcusable.
That's how I feel about drafting freaking Donald at 12.
Your an offense guy. I don't blame you for feeling that way ;)
But Donald could very well be clear cut BPA when we pick
Yeah, I am biased, and I coached TE. : ) But.. despite that, I have stuck to my position, Lewan or Martin, and then Ebron. I like Ebron if we don't go OL.
They were not getting Clady nor Albert who were going to be franchised
Vollmer, A. Smith, P. Loadholdt, G. Cherrilus, B. Richardson were all RT.
Sam Baker is not as good as Beatty. T. Clabo, E. Winston
The next OT taken after Pugh was M. Watson who played 2 games, neither at LT. The Bears drafted Kyle Long and he did not play T for them
I still think we see the top interior OL player picked in the 2nd and a T prospect in the 4th. I see them still signing another swing vet T.
I think Reese has improved the situation.
Is it perfect? No.
Is it ideal? No.
But considering that the line was in shambles just a few short months ago, I think they are in decent shape especially considering that they still have the draft to infuse some young talent.
This isn't the 2008 line. I didn't say that it was. But that was an amazing line that was put together the same way Reese is attempting to put this one together: some savvy free agent moves, some middle round draft picks and even a few undrafted guys as well. Those guys came together in a workman-like fashion and dominated because of their technique, attitude and nasty demeanor. I believe some of these guys are capable of doing the same.
I think the fear is that there are so many unknowns. Walton is an unknown (to some) Snee's health is an unknown. Beatty's health and level of play is an unknown. I happen to think that Walton is an above average player and I think Snee has another year left in him. So Reese does still have to have some insurance policy ideas, but if some of those younger players develop then he may have something going.
I think between Beatty/Schwartz/Walton/Snee/Pugh and Jerry/Mosley/Reynolds/Herman/Goodin, Reese will be able to put an above average line in front of the QB especially considering the draft hasn't even happened yet.
Beatty/Schwartz/Walton/Snee/Pugh is better than Beatty/Diehl/and injured Baas/an injured Snee/and a rookie Pugh in my opinion.
Right now, I have very little confidence that BOTH those scenarios will come to pass, unfortunately. More likely IMO that neither will bear out!
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In comment 11596933 AnishPatel said:
Quote:
In comment 11596898 cosmicj said:
Quote:
I promise you I will throw the f*****g remote -- and I try to stay calm in these situations. Taking a TE who can't block or catch particularly well in a talent-loaded draft like this one is inexcusable.
That's how I feel about drafting freaking Donald at 12.
Your an offense guy. I don't blame you for feeling that way ;)
But Donald could very well be clear cut BPA when we pick
Yeah, I am biased, and I coached TE. : ) But.. despite that, I have stuck to my position, Lewan or Martin, and then Ebron. I like Ebron if we don't go OL.
With Martin and Pugh as bookends you are taking about two of the best technician OTs that have come out the last two years. I still prefer Donald from a game changing standpoint but with Martin and Pugh on either side , they may not obliterate their guys and create huge lanes for the run but they will be as about mistake free as it gets and provide great pass pro for Eli with ultra consistency.
I think Reese has improved the situation.
Is it perfect? No.
Is it ideal? No.
But considering that the line was in shambles just a few short months ago, I think they are in decent shape especially considering that they still have the draft to infuse some young talent.
This isn't the 2008 line. I didn't say that it was. But that was an amazing line that was put together the same way Reese is attempting to put this one together: some savvy free agent moves, some middle round draft picks and even a few undrafted guys as well. Those guys came together in a workman-like fashion and dominated because of their technique, attitude and nasty demeanor. I believe some of these guys are capable of doing the same.
I think the fear is that there are so many unknowns. Walton is an unknown (to some) Snee's health is an unknown. Beatty's health and level of play is an unknown. I happen to think that Walton is an above average player and I think Snee has another year left in him. So Reese does still have to have some insurance policy ideas, but if some of those younger players develop then he may have something going.
I think between Beatty/Schwartz/Walton/Snee/Pugh and Jerry/Mosley/Reynolds/Herman/Goodin, Reese will be able to put an above average line in front of the QB especially considering the draft hasn't even happened yet.
Beatty/Schwartz/Walton/Snee/Pugh is better than Beatty/Diehl/and injured Baas/an injured Snee/and a rookie Pugh in my opinion.
It has a chance to be better than the 2011Super Bowl line especially if we get a plug and play OL in the first 2 rounds.Protect the A gaps better and Elis ability to move up in the pocket/ pocket awareness can help greatly.