A quick poll would probably rate Bill B as the best of our times. But consider: Bill hasn't won in a decade and he's never won without the benefits of the pre-game-taping scandal.
And I for one, think the impact and the advantages of that scandal has been relentlessly de-emphasized because the NFL thought it tarnished their image.
Think of it, he's never won fair, he's never won without cheating.
TWO\; Bill has had several inherent advantages over TC. He's had the better QB, he didn't have to give up picks to get his qb, and his qb occuppies less cap than Eli. Those are significant advantages. Almost as much as taping an opponents secret run throughs.
Expand on the Cost paid for the QB's. We give up three picks, they get their qb with six round pick and keep five top picks. That's about nine players they get that we don't have and they surround a better QB and still we beat them. Then their guy takes up less cap so again right throgh their time they are able to surround Brady with better talent and still we beat them. And we not only beat them we go through the toughest roads to get there of any team since Bradshaw's Steelers go against Pastrioni Oiler's, Stabler's Raiders and Landry's Staubach's Cowboys.
Now add a weaker conference and a weaker division. Folks are going to argue that BB has won more games, sure he's got Buffalo , Miami and the JETS for six games a year. Then he's got the weaker conference too, then add i the better QB, he should have more wins.
I see Peyton with one ring,I see Rogers and Brees with one ring. They are better QB's than Eli and Eli has two rings or twice what they have. How can that be anything but the consequence of great coaching.?
When you look underneath the glitz of Bill, when you consider all the factors I think a real case can be made that TC is the best coach of his time.
With one caveat: you have to measure coaches as relative to their time. We are never going to see the kind of dominance that Lombardi achieved, there are many reasons for that not the least of which is the competitive nature of the modern game, the strength of schedule, the value of the draft, and the evolution of the sport that means that all the new things have been done and in a similiar manner the sypmphony orchestra reached it's peak with Beethovan and hasn't had dramatic improvements for 150 years.
Little noted but a great factor mitigating against long term dominance too is the injury bug. I can still name the 22 starters for the NYGteam of the fifties, the team that started the season finished the season and , in fact, lasted for a decade. Injuries are so high in the modern game that luck plays a huge factor and makes it darn near impossible to dominate like the old teams might have. And now the road to the playooffs is longer, that gives luck a bigger role too, one bounce, one super hot player, one call and more opportunities for those factors.
OK, you wanna disagree, you can't disagree by too much and the bottom line is this: We have been blessed. We have seen wildly exciting years, we have seen great triumphs in the most exciting superbowls of all time. There is no team that has had it as good as us, I wish the naysayers would put their shrill criticisms in context and understand how grand this trip has been and continues to be.
The consistency - and his efforts this year may be his best coaching yet.
The only other coaches ever who compare would be Walsh, Parcells and Lombardi... and I'm not sure about Parcells.
BTW H2H shouldn't be the reason why one is better than the other..Its too small a sample size...
BTW H2H shouldn't be the reason why one is better than the other..Its too small a sample size...
Belichick won a Super bowl his second year in New England.
Bledsoe started 1 full season before Brady replaced him.,
And since that year Bledsoe started, Belichick's teams have never won fewer than 9 games.
I think most agree Coughlin is a hall-of-fame coach, but Belichick is legendary.
It's not a knock on Coughlin in the least (IMO).
I meant 9 wins or more....
So it's a chicken or egg thing.
And do the groundwork, the NFC East over the same period is probably only marginally better as a conference than the AFC East, if it is even better.
So it's a chicken or egg thing.
And do the groundwork, the NFC East over the same period is probably only marginally better as a conference than the AFC East, if it is even better.
You are right. NFCE is only marginally better but that still does leave the other points like his record from over a 100 games without Tom Brady being well below .500...Thats a huge sample size you cannot hide or have any valid point for...
In 7 seasons without Brady... BB has only made the playoffs once... Once..missing playoffs 4 out of the last 5 is still better than that.. Don't get me wrong BB is good... better than TC but its not like TC is tier 3 and BB is in a league with Lombardi...
So it's a chicken or egg thing.
And do the groundwork, the NFC East over the same period is probably only marginally better as a conference than the AFC East, if it is even better.
Also, from 2003-2012, the Pats had an 81.67% winning percentage against the division and 77% against the rest of the NFL. Ignoring the games against the Pats, the rest of the AFC East is close to .500. People making the SoS argument are ignoring facts.
In 1991, in his first year of coaching after winning 2 SB rings as the great defensive coordinator of the Giants, he took over a 3-13 Browns team that has a point differential of -234.
1990 Browns: 3-13, -234
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1991 Browns: 6-10, -5
1992 Browns: 7-9, -3
1993 Browns: 7-9, -3
1994 Browns: 11-5, +136
1995 Browns: 5-11, -67 (started 3-1, Modell announced in November that team was moving to Baltimore. Belichick fired after the season )
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1996 Browns: 2-14, -220
1997 Browns: 3-13 ,-258
Criticizing Belichick for only making the playoffs once during that five year stretch while trying to win for a pitiful franchise like Cleveland is asinine.
In 1991, in his first year of coaching after winning 2 SB rings as the great defensive coordinator of the Giants, he took over a 3-13 Browns team that has a point differential of -234.
1990 Browns: 3-13, -234
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1991 Browns: 6-10, -5
1992 Browns: 7-9, -3
1993 Browns: 7-9, -3
1994 Browns: 11-5, +136
1995 Browns: 5-11, -67 (started 3-1, Modell announced in November that team was moving to Baltimore. Belichick fired after the season )
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1996 Browns: 2-14, -220
1997 Browns: 3-13 ,-258
Criticizing Belichick for only making the playoffs once during that five year stretch while trying to win for a pitiful franchise like Cleveland is asinine.
TC has a much better resume with the Jags than BB does with Browns... BTW that Browns franchise that you talk about won 2 superbowls since BB left... Don't mistake that browns franchise with the current browns franchise.
I am greediefor more - but when you compare that to everything else
: )
In 1991, in his first year of coaching after winning 2 SB rings as the great defensive coordinator of the Giants, he took over a 3-13 Browns team that has a point differential of -234.
1990 Browns: 3-13, -234
-------------------------
1991 Browns: 6-10, -5
1992 Browns: 7-9, -3
1993 Browns: 7-9, -3
1994 Browns: 11-5, +136
1995 Browns: 5-11, -67 (started 3-1, Modell announced in November that team was moving to Baltimore. Belichick fired after the season )
----------------------
1996 Browns: 2-14, -220
1997 Browns: 3-13 ,-258
Criticizing Belichick for only making the playoffs once during that five year stretch while trying to win for a pitiful franchise like Cleveland is asinine.
Also nice of you to look at only single year prior to BB this was the Browns Franchise for a few years prior to BB. I won't it Pitiful...
1990 NFL Cleveland Browns 3 13 -234
1989 NFL Cleveland Browns* 9 6 80
1988 NFL Cleveland Browns* 10 6 16
1987 NFL Cleveland Browns* 10 5 151
1986 NFL Cleveland Browns* 12 4 81
1985 NFL Cleveland Browns* 8 8 -7
IF we are only looking at 1 year prior to BB then the year prior to TC the giants were also pitiful @ 4-12 and 31st worst points differential in the NFL (-144)...
So whats the excuse for those 7 bad seasons? Also there are 2 seasons with the Patriots included in those 7... Again I am not saying BB is bad but he isn't much better than TC...
Be happy with TC as our coach, as you would be with a good and loyal spouse who isn't Miss America or Superman.
You can twist it however you want but the idea that Coughlin is a better coach than Belichick is rooted in nothing more than embarrassing homer behavior that objective Giants fans hope fans of other teams don't see so as to tie us to such ridiculous comments.
Coughlin's resume speaks for itself and I do disagree with those who think it is laughable to compare him to Belichick.
Also, I disagree with the idea that the fact that Coughlin has Eli instead of some other QB supports his claim as the best coach. As if TC just carried Eli and coached this excellent Giants era of football despite Eli. If you asked Coughlin I would bet that he knows he is very lucky to have Eli as his QB and that there would have been no super bowls without him.
That said, if TC is at the helm for one more super bowl run, he most certainly is the best coach of this era.
Coughlin's resume speaks for itself and I do disagree with those who think it is laughable to compare him to Belichick.
Also, I disagree with the idea that the fact that Coughlin has Eli instead of some other QB supports his claim as the best coach. As if TC just carried Eli and coached this excellent Giants era of football despite Eli. If you asked Coughlin I would bet that he knows he is very lucky to have Eli as his QB and that there would have been no super bowls without him.
That said, if TC is at the helm for one more super bowl run, he most certainly is the best coach of this era.
I don't mean to degrade Eli either... he is great but the difference between Eli and TB is slightly more than BB and TC... I'll still take Eli and our 2 SB runs over anything TB has done...since 2005... Just can't stand it when Media and most fans chose to forget that BB only has little more success than TC and that could be attributed to the fact that he has TB and TC had to work with Brunell..
87-73? Only two seasons out of ten, where he won a playoff game?
Missing the playoffs 4 of the last 5 seasons?
There is a lack of consistency in his Giant teams....
He is a fine coach....2 SB wins is not a lock for the HOF.....If he wins another, yes....he has a chance for the HOF, if his Giant teams can put up some good numbers the next few years....
and since 01 the Jets were a game below .500 at the time
the Dolphins and Bills were just a flat out joke. But be nice to have a terrible division for a solid 15 years
If we are limiting our to only the modern era then its tough but there is a difference between Franchise QB and TB... One is Flacco the other is all time great... but coaches such as Harbaugh brothers, Caroll and Tomlin have won with much lesser QB's than BB... But the main point is that when BB was provided franchise QBs like Vinny and Bledsoe (both had success even after BB coached them) he failed (made the playoffs 1 of 7 seasons)... he needed an all time great QB to succeed... There is a big enough sample to prove this...
Regular Season
BB's record - 196–103–0 (.656)
TC's record - 158–130–0 (.549)
The difference can easily be explained by the fact that TC had to play with franchise QB vs one of the All time great...
If you don't think TB will help you win a measely 10% more games than Brunell... well then I don't know what to say...
Post Season record
BB - 19–9 (.679)
TC - 12–7 (.632)
Slight difference between the 2.. but when you factor in the fact that the way BB was caught cheating.. really helps win games in the playoffs.. the difference isn't big at all... Hence BB is slightly better but not too much...
As far as football genius goes, I'd say bellichik, but as far as who is a better coach, you can look at TC's body of work, starting a franchise, running it drafting, being GM basically and taking it as a new team to the playoffs.That's no small feat and something bellichik never did.TC seemsm to be able to impose order, and actually lead and coach better than just about anyone. Organizationally he simply has no peers in the NFL.Football smarts Bellichik beats him.If anything i give TC a slight edge in being able to motivate players to perform overall.on game day I think bill is a bit stronger, except when character enters into the occassion, and then again, TC has an edge there.There is a reason the better coach with the better QB lost twice head to head for all the marbles.
I think Bill is better at football, and TC is better at life.
TC is a great coach and HOF worthy but it's reaching saying he's better than Bill B who found a way to win 11 games w Cassel.
Belichick's body of work over the long haul is better (W/L, consistent playoff visits, more SB appearances). That is balanced out with two super bowl losses head to head with Coughlin.
Coughlin's peak performances are pretty impressive. When he gets a team to play for him, they can be pretty tough. And his game planning can also be top notch in big moments.
I think the 2011 playoff run was pretty powerful. The team just a month or so earlier could not have been expected to do what they did. The defensive game plan versus SF was the key to winning that game.
Winning Super Bowl 42 is an achievement that cannot be taken lightly, even if there's debate as to whether the Patriots were a slightly overrated 18-0.
If there was a knock for BB that 2007 season, it was for trying to win week 17 against the Giants. The obsession/arrogance for a perfect season IMO cost him the super bowl. It opened up confidence in the Giants and gave them extra game plan film. Perhaps it was a longshot that the two teams would meet, but there's something else that was wrong with that philosophy:
Football teams win/lose a lot on emotional peaks/valleys, as much as they do Xs and Os and talent. I recall reading Bill Walsh mentioning how hard it is to sustain winning more than 4-5 games in a row just due to this alone. If the Patriots took a dive in that final game (like normal teams do) and finish 15-1, the team would have been more relaxed and finished off the final 3 games with Ws.
Still think BB is a little better. I think most people were picking the Giants to win SB46 a lot more easily than they did. He still knows how to get a lot out of his players, and molds his team around them. The Patriots were very much in that game, and could have won it.
Belichick's job as a DC with the Giants was maybe as important as the talent the team had when it came to slowing down the 49ers and Bills in the SB.
That said, I think he needs to win another Super Bowl post Spygate to shut a lot of people up.
If the teams's rebuild crashes, they finish 3-13 and Coughlin is relieved prior to the end of the season, he still might make HOF, but chances are pretty dicey.
And I love Coughlin and think he's on his way to Canton.
That said, I think he needs to win another Super Bowl post Spygate to shut a lot of people up.
Here is BB's record over 6 complete seasons without Brady
CLE 1991 6 10 0 0.375 3rd in AFC Central
CLE 1992 7 9 0 0.438 3rd in AFC Central
CLE 1993 7 9 0 0.438 3rd in AFC Central
CLE 1994 11 5 0 0.688 2nd in AFC Central
CLE 1995 5 11 0 0.313 4th in AFC Central
NE 2000 5 11 0 0.313 4th in AFC East
Don't blame this on the crap franchise that was the Browns... That franchise had been .500 or better 5 out of 6 years prior to BB... And since BB left them, that franchise has won 2 superbowls and has reached conf finals multiple times... BB's record without Brady is horrendous and its not like it was a short period of time while he was rebuilding a team... it was over a long period of time with decent/ franchise QBs... This idea that BB is miles ahead of TC is not valid..
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Coughlin's a HOFer in my opinion, but Belichick is probably the second best coach of all time after Lombardi. What he's done in New England is amazing. And for those who say he didn't accomplish anything without Brady, check out the '08 Pats who went 11-5 with the immortal Matt Cassel.
That said, I think he needs to win another Super Bowl post Spygate to shut a lot of people up.
Here is BB's record over 6 complete seasons without Brady
CLE 1991 6 10 0 0.375 3rd in AFC Central
CLE 1992 7 9 0 0.438 3rd in AFC Central
CLE 1993 7 9 0 0.438 3rd in AFC Central
CLE 1994 11 5 0 0.688 2nd in AFC Central
CLE 1995 5 11 0 0.313 4th in AFC Central
NE 2000 5 11 0 0.313 4th in AFC East
Don't blame this on the crap franchise that was the Browns... That franchise had been .500 or better 5 out of 6 years prior to BB... And since BB left them, that franchise has won 2 superbowls and has reached conf finals multiple times... BB's record without Brady is horrendous and its not like it was a short period of time while he was rebuilding a team... it was over a long period of time with decent/ franchise QBs... This idea that BB is miles ahead of TC is not valid..
Yeah its not valid if you want to be a blind homer.
Unlike TC Belichick isn't afraid to change his philosophy due to roster situations. On offense or defense. And to ignore Belichicks success as a DC would also be hugely disingenuous.
Coughlin is a HOF coach but pretending he's on the level of Bill B in the X's and O's category is silly.
TC had to be forced to fire Gilbride and doesn't go near the D compared to how involved Belichick is in his O. . Bill B is the man in NE. How many defensive coaches have transitoned over and put their fingerprints all over the whole team? How many offensive guys.
That said, I think he needs to win another Super Bowl post Spygate to shut a lot of people up.
BTW that 11-5 season with Cassell... Patriots schedule was the 3rd easiest in their entire history... according to pro football reference..Also that team was loaded with talent everywhere... remember that team was 18-0 the year before....kind a puts a damper on the 11-5 with cassell...
Well TC also took over a team that was 4-12 with 8 game losing streak and the second worst point differential the year before he got there.... so in similar situation TC was able to suceede while the great Belichick sucked it up... I won't regard the fact that just few years before TC got here the team was in the SB...