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Is Tom The best of his time?

grizz299 : 4/8/2014 9:04 am
A quick poll would probably rate Bill B as the best of our times. But consider: Bill hasn't won in a decade and he's never won without the benefits of the pre-game-taping scandal.
And I for one, think the impact and the advantages of that scandal has been relentlessly de-emphasized because the NFL thought it tarnished their image.
Think of it, he's never won fair, he's never won without cheating.

TWO\; Bill has had several inherent advantages over TC. He's had the better QB, he didn't have to give up picks to get his qb, and his qb occuppies less cap than Eli. Those are significant advantages. Almost as much as taping an opponents secret run throughs.
Expand on the Cost paid for the QB's. We give up three picks, they get their qb with six round pick and keep five top picks. That's about nine players they get that we don't have and they surround a better QB and still we beat them. Then their guy takes up less cap so again right throgh their time they are able to surround Brady with better talent and still we beat them. And we not only beat them we go through the toughest roads to get there of any team since Bradshaw's Steelers go against Pastrioni Oiler's, Stabler's Raiders and Landry's Staubach's Cowboys.

Now add a weaker conference and a weaker division. Folks are going to argue that BB has won more games, sure he's got Buffalo , Miami and the JETS for six games a year. Then he's got the weaker conference too, then add i the better QB, he should have more wins.

I see Peyton with one ring,I see Rogers and Brees with one ring. They are better QB's than Eli and Eli has two rings or twice what they have. How can that be anything but the consequence of great coaching.?

When you look underneath the glitz of Bill, when you consider all the factors I think a real case can be made that TC is the best coach of his time.
With one caveat: you have to measure coaches as relative to their time. We are never going to see the kind of dominance that Lombardi achieved, there are many reasons for that not the least of which is the competitive nature of the modern game, the strength of schedule, the value of the draft, and the evolution of the sport that means that all the new things have been done and in a similiar manner the sypmphony orchestra reached it's peak with Beethovan and hasn't had dramatic improvements for 150 years.

Little noted but a great factor mitigating against long term dominance too is the injury bug. I can still name the 22 starters for the NYGteam of the fifties, the team that started the season finished the season and , in fact, lasted for a decade. Injuries are so high in the modern game that luck plays a huge factor and makes it darn near impossible to dominate like the old teams might have. And now the road to the playooffs is longer, that gives luck a bigger role too, one bounce, one super hot player, one call and more opportunities for those factors.

OK, you wanna disagree, you can't disagree by too much and the bottom line is this: We have been blessed. We have seen wildly exciting years, we have seen great triumphs in the most exciting superbowls of all time. There is no team that has had it as good as us, I wish the naysayers would put their shrill criticisms in context and understand how grand this trip has been and continues to be.
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Huh?  
Josh in the City : 4/8/2014 9:07 am : link
The Giants have missed the playoffs 4 out of the last 5 seasons with a multiple Super Bowl MVP quarterback in his prime. The Patriots have missed the playoffs once in the past 11 seasons!
Belichick  
pjcas18 : 4/8/2014 9:09 am : link
is better.

Tom is a hall of fame coach, and I believe his teams (for the Giants at least) have a winning record H2H against Belichick, but overall Belichick is a better coach.
No, he isn't.  
dangerousrappingfrog : 4/8/2014 9:10 am : link
I would probably put him in the top 5 since I have been watching football.

Despite the 2 SB's our teams are wildly inconsistent and have too many games where we simply don't show up. Also, there are quite a few one and done playoffs as well.

Best NFC coach of the last 10 years  
Spark Em Up 22 : 4/8/2014 9:14 am : link
in what is a weak NFC coaching decade
from 2002-2011  
PaulBlakeTSU : 4/8/2014 9:17 am : link
The Patriots went 35-5 against the NFC. They flat-out dominated football with Belichick as the coach.

Coughlin also never had to deal with the turnover that Belichick had with regarding all of the coordinators who left to coach elsewhere-- Weiss, Crennell, McDaniels, to name a few.

He also won 10 games with a backup quarterback.
I agree!  
nicky43 : 4/8/2014 9:17 am : link
I think TC is the best Coach of his time. He achieves much more with much less. That's the best way I can put it but I rate him so highly not because of his achievements which are many but because of how he coaches, how he always looks to improve himself as a coach, how he has an open mind to listen to what others have to say, and his unyielding dedication to his team and the responsibilities he has as a coach.

He accepts blame for the losses and dishes out credits for the wins. He holds himself just as accountable (actually more) as he tries to hold the players to their responsibilities. He garners the respect of fellow coaches, fans, media, and those who have played for him.

I can go on and on about TC but I also rate him so high because of the man TC is off the field, a wonderful family man, a very patriotic patriot, and a man with excellent morals and convictions. But on or off the field, TC is TC. There is nothing phony about him and he stands behind all his ideals. Clearly it will be a sad day for NYG when he retires.
Coach  
Joeguido : 4/8/2014 9:19 am : link
I’m a True Blue and I think H2H Coughlin has out coached Belicheat, but overall like danger said our teams are inconsistent they play to the level of our opponents too often. He is definitely in the top five of his era.
the best snow fan maybe  
Rocky369 : 4/8/2014 9:20 am : link
.
The taping scandal is completely overblown  
weeg in the bronx : 4/8/2014 9:25 am : link
He's been to two SBs since, which he esentially lost on two of the greatest/clutch plays in SB history (Tyree and manningham catches). By teh way, he won the first three by just as narrow a margin, goes to show that over time the ball tends to bounce both ways.
Bill B & Brady put the spygate thing to rest  
Motley Blue : 4/8/2014 9:33 am : link
the very next season when they won 18 games in a row and put up the more points in a season then the league has ever seen.


They answered the allegations so much, that there wasn't a fan base in the league outside of New England that didn't have the majority of their fans pulling for the Giants in Super Bowl 42. Something that has never happened.

That's how hated the Pats had become over the spygate stuff & a ton of jealousy over the 3 titles they had already won.
I'm fine with TC being second to BB  
Big Blue '56 : 4/8/2014 9:36 am : link
.
I remember in 2004...  
Porch622 : 4/8/2014 9:39 am : link
when people would say we have the 4th best coach in the division. Behind Andy Reid, Joe Gibbs, and Bill Parcells...10 years and two Super Bowls later the 4th best coach is still with the same team...
Thats questionable  
TMS : 4/8/2014 9:42 am : link
but he is right up there with Parcells as the best HC the Giants have ever had. We will miss him when he is gone.
RE: Huh?  
ShockNRoll : 4/8/2014 9:54 am : link
In comment 11610583 Josh in the City said:
Quote:
The Giants have missed the playoffs 4 out of the last 5 seasons with a multiple Super Bowl MVP quarterback in his prime. The Patriots have missed the playoffs once in the past 11 seasons!


Not to mention that the season they missed the playoffs, they were 11-5 with Matt Cassel at QB. I love TC, but BB has made some very impressive runs with teams that were not loaded with talent, last season being a prime example. On the other hand, the OP is right, that the Giants have always faced a much more challenging schedule than the Patriots, but the consistency with which the Patriots win 10-14 games is impressive regardless of schedule. They have had one season of less than 10 wins since Brady/BB were together, dating back to 2001. TC"s Giants have been the dominant team in football one year, 2008, while BB's Patriots have habitually been the dominant team in football several years.

There is not much of a debate here. TC is great. His body of work in Jacksonville and NY is truly remarkable and Hall of Fame worthy. But what BB has done in his time in NE is one of the great coaching jobs ever seen in this league.
those are cogent points  
grizz299 : 4/8/2014 10:32 am : link
Could TC have gone to NE played with Brady and done as well as BB? Maybe.

Could BB have come to NY , found Eli in his bunting clothes on his doorstep and done as well...I don't think so.

But my greater point really was speaking against all the negativity and criticism of this Giant organization and to remind every one of how good we have it. Above that, I wouldn't trade those historic superbowls and the runs that attended them for all the taineted wins that NE has and ask an Eagle fan what it's like to win regular season games and not have a superbowl
TC needs another ring to be seriously considered  
raever : 4/8/2014 10:32 am : link
even then BB's consistency is remarkable...Tom has obviously beaten him head to head twice in the Superbowl, as historic underdogs in 2007. Got to get the third title before really getting into this convo imo.
RE: those are cogent points  
Riggies : 4/8/2014 10:42 am : link
In comment 11610759 grizz299 said:
Quote:
Could TC have gone to NE played with Brady and done as well as BB? Maybe.

Could BB have come to NY , found Eli in his bunting clothes on his doorstep and done as well...I don't think so.

TC was part of the process of selecting Eli.

It's not like he was just saddled with him and it's also not like it's not debatable about whether he would have been a better QB (even if it didn't lead to two SB rings) if he had gone elsewhere himself.
it's fine  
M in CT : 4/8/2014 10:42 am : link
if you think TC is underrated and that he deserves more credit for being a tremendous football coach. i actually agree with you on that aspect of it, he's definitely not appreciated enough.

but i'm sorry, he's not as good a coach as Belicheck by pretty much any measure.
RE: those are cogent points  
Mason : 4/8/2014 10:43 am : link
In comment 11610759 grizz299 said:
Quote:
Could TC have gone to NE played with Brady and done as well as BB? Maybe.

Could BB have come to NY , found Eli in his bunting clothes on his doorstep and done as well...I don't think so.

But my greater point really was speaking against all the negativity and criticism of this Giant organization and to remind every one of how good we have it. Above that, I wouldn't trade those historic superbowls and the runs that attended them for all the taineted wins that NE has and ask an Eagle fan what it's like to win regular season games and not have a superbowl


Some of Coughlin's own peers believe his system has held back Eli and talent on his team. The said isn't said of BB, so no for me.
Go back and watch the Pink Panther movies,  
oldog : 4/8/2014 10:59 am : link
then replay SB 42 and 46. Who is Dreyfuss, who is Clouseau.
If I am a GM  
bc4life : 4/8/2014 10:59 am : link
and had to pick between the two - without hesitation its' BB. And, I've always been a supporter of TC.

The consistency - and his efforts this year may be his best coaching yet.
Little Bill  
Don in DC : 4/8/2014 11:17 am : link
The consistency with which that team reaches the playoffs and goes deep in them in unmatched.

The only other coaches ever who compare would be Walsh, Parcells and Lombardi... and I'm not sure about Parcells.
I agree BB is better  
chuckydee9 : 4/8/2014 11:19 am : link
but some of you sound like TC is not in his category. That is absolutely bs. First BB hasn't won a superbowl since he was caught cheating. Also he has had no success without Tom Brady.. I know he went 11-5 with cassell but he failed with the Browns and missed playoffs every year with the Patriots that Brady wasn't a starter for (thats 2 seasons).. On the other hand TC has never failed.. He was successful with the Jags, and NYG... There is something to be said about being successful every where you've gone..

BTW H2H shouldn't be the reason why one is better than the other..Its too small a sample size...
RE: I agree BB is better  
pjcas18 : 4/8/2014 11:25 am : link
In comment 11610840 chuckydee9 said:
Quote:
but some of you sound like TC is not in his category. That is absolutely bs. First BB hasn't won a superbowl since he was caught cheating. Also he has had no success without Tom Brady.. I know he went 11-5 with cassell but he failed with the Browns and missed playoffs every year with the Patriots that Brady wasn't a starter for (thats 2 seasons).. On the other hand TC has never failed.. He was successful with the Jags, and NYG... There is something to be said about being successful every where you've gone..

BTW H2H shouldn't be the reason why one is better than the other..Its too small a sample size...


Belichick won a Super bowl his second year in New England.

Bledsoe started 1 full season before Brady replaced him.,

Quote:
and missed playoffs every year with the Patriots that Brady wasn't a starter for (thats 2 seasons)


And since that year Bledsoe started, Belichick's teams have never won fewer than 9 games.

I think most agree Coughlin is a hall-of-fame coach, but Belichick is legendary.

It's not a knock on Coughlin in the least (IMO).
BB is  
chuckydee9 : 4/8/2014 11:41 am : link
he's 51-65 without Brady. Thats not a small sample size.. Every season with 9 wins in AFC east isn't all that impresive... Even the seasons TC missed the playoffs he had more than 9 wins quite a bit...

RE: BB is  
chuckydee9 : 4/8/2014 11:42 am : link
In comment 11610900 chuckydee9 said:
Quote:
he's 51-65 without Brady. Thats not a small sample size.. Every season with 9 wins in AFC east isn't all that impresive... Even the seasons TC missed the playoffs he had more than 9 wins quite a bit...


I meant 9 wins or more....
The AFC East is not a predominantly strong conference  
pjcas18 : 4/8/2014 11:45 am : link
but that argument is lazy. Because part of the reason the conference is so weak is because the other three teams have to play the Pats twice every year.

So it's a chicken or egg thing.

And do the groundwork, the NFC East over the same period is probably only marginally better as a conference than the AFC East, if it is even better.
RE: The AFC East is not a predominantly strong conference  
chuckydee9 : 4/8/2014 12:08 pm : link
In comment 11610909 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
but that argument is lazy. Because part of the reason the conference is so weak is because the other three teams have to play the Pats twice every year.

So it's a chicken or egg thing.

And do the groundwork, the NFC East over the same period is probably only marginally better as a conference than the AFC East, if it is even better.


You are right. NFCE is only marginally better but that still does leave the other points like his record from over a 100 games without Tom Brady being well below .500...Thats a huge sample size you cannot hide or have any valid point for...

In 7 seasons without Brady... BB has only made the playoffs once... Once..missing playoffs 4 out of the last 5 is still better than that.. Don't get me wrong BB is good... better than TC but its not like TC is tier 3 and BB is in a league with Lombardi...
RE: The AFC East is not a predominantly strong conference  
BrettNYG10 : 4/8/2014 12:27 pm : link
In comment 11610909 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
but that argument is lazy. Because part of the reason the conference is so weak is because the other three teams have to play the Pats twice every year.

So it's a chicken or egg thing.

And do the groundwork, the NFC East over the same period is probably only marginally better as a conference than the AFC East, if it is even better.


Also, from 2003-2012, the Pats had an 81.67% winning percentage against the division and 77% against the rest of the NFL. Ignoring the games against the Pats, the rest of the AFC East is close to .500. People making the SoS argument are ignoring facts.
"7 seasons without Brady"  
PaulBlakeTSU : 4/8/2014 12:27 pm : link
come on.

In 1991, in his first year of coaching after winning 2 SB rings as the great defensive coordinator of the Giants, he took over a 3-13 Browns team that has a point differential of -234.

1990 Browns: 3-13, -234
-------------------------
1991 Browns: 6-10, -5
1992 Browns: 7-9, -3
1993 Browns: 7-9, -3
1994 Browns: 11-5, +136
1995 Browns: 5-11, -67 (started 3-1, Modell announced in November that team was moving to Baltimore. Belichick fired after the season )
----------------------
1996 Browns: 2-14, -220
1997 Browns: 3-13 ,-258

Criticizing Belichick for only making the playoffs once during that five year stretch while trying to win for a pitiful franchise like Cleveland is asinine.

RE:  
chuckydee9 : 4/8/2014 12:36 pm : link
In comment 11610988 PaulBlakeTSU said:
Quote:
come on.

In 1991, in his first year of coaching after winning 2 SB rings as the great defensive coordinator of the Giants, he took over a 3-13 Browns team that has a point differential of -234.

1990 Browns: 3-13, -234
-------------------------
1991 Browns: 6-10, -5
1992 Browns: 7-9, -3
1993 Browns: 7-9, -3
1994 Browns: 11-5, +136
1995 Browns: 5-11, -67 (started 3-1, Modell announced in November that team was moving to Baltimore. Belichick fired after the season )
----------------------
1996 Browns: 2-14, -220
1997 Browns: 3-13 ,-258

Criticizing Belichick for only making the playoffs once during that five year stretch while trying to win for a pitiful franchise like Cleveland is asinine.


TC has a much better resume with the Jags than BB does with Browns... BTW that Browns franchise that you talk about won 2 superbowls since BB left... Don't mistake that browns franchise with the current browns franchise.
No.  
RDJR : 4/8/2014 12:42 pm : link
It is a yes or no question.
Four Rings Joe Boston Chapter  
RetroJint : 4/8/2014 12:43 pm : link
is the best coach of this era, following the departure of Parcells. Coughlin has it over him Mano y Mano . The only loss was most likely the most glorious defeat in history since the 300 Spartans. Where Belichick has it on the Giants is his work as Executive VP GM , where he clearly outclasses Reese. Bill Belichick is one of the seminal figures of his time. As a coach, Coughlin is better & in that teeny weeny heart of hearts of his, in a moment of absolute candor, I think Belichick would admit it. At least I hope so.
If the only criteria  
Jerry in DC : 4/8/2014 12:52 pm : link
is "Super Bowls since 2007" then yes. If any other criteria is used, then no.
I don't need Coach Coughlin to be the best of all times  
gidiefor : Mod : 4/8/2014 1:00 pm : link
he's been good enough to be pretty damned good - and the Giants have given me 2 Superbowl thrills in the past 7 years - which considering 1990-2007 there were none is pretty terrific.

I am greediefor more - but when you compare that to everything else

: )
An interesting  
pjcas18 : 4/8/2014 1:02 pm : link
but probably impossible way to look at this is through the lens of non-Giants and non-Pats fans.

TC is very good.  
Randy in CT : 4/8/2014 1:03 pm : link
Being best doesn't matter. Close this thread.
He is the Secretariat of Coaches  
Headhunter : 4/8/2014 1:09 pm : link
over 65
RE:  
chuckydee9 : 4/8/2014 1:18 pm : link
In comment 11610988 PaulBlakeTSU said:
Quote:
come on.

In 1991, in his first year of coaching after winning 2 SB rings as the great defensive coordinator of the Giants, he took over a 3-13 Browns team that has a point differential of -234.

1990 Browns: 3-13, -234
-------------------------
1991 Browns: 6-10, -5
1992 Browns: 7-9, -3
1993 Browns: 7-9, -3
1994 Browns: 11-5, +136
1995 Browns: 5-11, -67 (started 3-1, Modell announced in November that team was moving to Baltimore. Belichick fired after the season )
----------------------
1996 Browns: 2-14, -220
1997 Browns: 3-13 ,-258

Criticizing Belichick for only making the playoffs once during that five year stretch while trying to win for a pitiful franchise like Cleveland is asinine.


Also nice of you to look at only single year prior to BB this was the Browns Franchise for a few years prior to BB. I won't it Pitiful...
1990 NFL Cleveland Browns 3 13 -234
1989 NFL Cleveland Browns* 9 6 80
1988 NFL Cleveland Browns* 10 6 16
1987 NFL Cleveland Browns* 10 5 151
1986 NFL Cleveland Browns* 12 4 81
1985 NFL Cleveland Browns* 8 8 -7


IF we are only looking at 1 year prior to BB then the year prior to TC the giants were also pitiful @ 4-12 and 31st worst points differential in the NFL (-144)...

So whats the excuse for those 7 bad seasons? Also there are 2 seasons with the Patriots included in those 7... Again I am not saying BB is bad but he isn't much better than TC...
Best test for coaching,  
oldog : 4/8/2014 1:39 pm : link
is to compare first half of the season, to the second. TC has a lot of 6-2 starts, then struggles. But, in the 2007, 2011, and again last year, he was legendary. This coming year is a special challenge, head office is all in to win. He has a coachable, perhaps HOF, QB, and the raw material to form a team. If he can bring home one more Eli SB, then yes, better than Parcells, better than BB, one for the ages.
"Comparisons are odious."  
Blackbeard : 4/8/2014 2:11 pm : link
Too many situational differences.
Be happy with TC as our coach, as you would be with a good and loyal spouse who isn't Miss America or Superman.
chuckydee  
PaulBlakeTSU : 4/8/2014 2:14 pm : link
I only looked at the one year prior because that was all that was necessary. THe Browns were the second worst team in all of football that season, with the second worst point differential in the league. Only the 1-15 Patriots with a -265 point differential had a worse season. That's the team Belichick took over, not the strong Browns team that had a nice run beforehand.

You can twist it however you want but the idea that Coughlin is a better coach than Belichick is rooted in nothing more than embarrassing homer behavior that objective Giants fans hope fans of other teams don't see so as to tie us to such ridiculous comments.
BB is better and I've said this multiple times  
chuckydee9 : 4/8/2014 2:53 pm : link
but the idea that most fans think that he is the second coming of Lombardi and there is no way TC should even be mentioned in the same tier as BB is BS...ALL of BB's success is tied to Tom Brady... He hasn't even looked average without Brady... His record from 7+ seasons prove my point.. If TC had Peyton for 10+ years this won't even be a legit question to ask and they'd be naming tropies after TC... I am not looking at it homeristically but rather looking at the entire history of both HC and not just the last 5 or so years..




Coughlin..  
rocco8112 : 4/8/2014 3:00 pm : link
...is a fantastic coach. In '07 the Giants ran off 11 consecutive road wins to capture it all. That is something about that run that gets talked about very little. It is a great team and coaching accomplishment.

Coughlin's resume speaks for itself and I do disagree with those who think it is laughable to compare him to Belichick.

Also, I disagree with the idea that the fact that Coughlin has Eli instead of some other QB supports his claim as the best coach. As if TC just carried Eli and coached this excellent Giants era of football despite Eli. If you asked Coughlin I would bet that he knows he is very lucky to have Eli as his QB and that there would have been no super bowls without him.

That said, if TC is at the helm for one more super bowl run, he most certainly is the best coach of this era.
RE: Coughlin..  
chuckydee9 : 4/8/2014 3:11 pm : link
In comment 11611316 rocco8112 said:
Quote:
...is a fantastic coach. In '07 the Giants ran off 11 consecutive road wins to capture it all. That is something about that run that gets talked about very little. It is a great team and coaching accomplishment.

Coughlin's resume speaks for itself and I do disagree with those who think it is laughable to compare him to Belichick.

Also, I disagree with the idea that the fact that Coughlin has Eli instead of some other QB supports his claim as the best coach. As if TC just carried Eli and coached this excellent Giants era of football despite Eli. If you asked Coughlin I would bet that he knows he is very lucky to have Eli as his QB and that there would have been no super bowls without him.

That said, if TC is at the helm for one more super bowl run, he most certainly is the best coach of this era.


I don't mean to degrade Eli either... he is great but the difference between Eli and TB is slightly more than BB and TC... I'll still take Eli and our 2 SB runs over anything TB has done...since 2005... Just can't stand it when Media and most fans chose to forget that BB only has little more success than TC and that could be attributed to the fact that he has TB and TC had to work with Brunell..
TC, has done a fine job with the Giants...  
Doomster : 4/8/2014 3:18 pm : link
But one of the best of all time?

87-73? Only two seasons out of ten, where he won a playoff game?

Missing the playoffs 4 of the last 5 seasons?

There is a lack of consistency in his Giant teams....

He is a fine coach....2 SB wins is not a lock for the HOF.....If he wins another, yes....he has a chance for the HOF, if his Giant teams can put up some good numbers the next few years....
Coughlin is better  
PaulN : 4/8/2014 3:20 pm : link
Then Belichick only on BBI from those who are just going to ignore every possible measuring tool and just say, he cheated so Tom is better. OK then.
A joke  
PaulN : 4/8/2014 3:23 pm : link
To even compare them. Plus all the sure shot hall of fame talk about Tom is ridiculous, he is borderline hall of fame, not sure shot. Add the anti New York sentiment and he may not get in, and if he does it may not be in a very long time.
re: nothing without Brady argument  
bc4life : 4/8/2014 3:31 pm : link
what highly successful coach in the modern era has not had a franchise qb?
re: can't win without cheating  
bc4life : 4/8/2014 3:33 pm : link
both of Giants SB wins could have gone the other way - very close games. that's two more near misses at the Lombardi trophy on top of all the playoff appearances.
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