A quick poll would probably rate Bill B as the best of our times. But consider: Bill hasn't won in a decade and he's never won without the benefits of the pre-game-taping scandal.
And I for one, think the impact and the advantages of that scandal has been relentlessly de-emphasized because the NFL thought it tarnished their image.
Think of it, he's never won fair, he's never won without cheating.
TWO\; Bill has had several inherent advantages over TC. He's had the better QB, he didn't have to give up picks to get his qb, and his qb occuppies less cap than Eli. Those are significant advantages. Almost as much as taping an opponents secret run throughs.
Expand on the Cost paid for the QB's. We give up three picks, they get their qb with six round pick and keep five top picks. That's about nine players they get that we don't have and they surround a better QB and still we beat them. Then their guy takes up less cap so again right throgh their time they are able to surround Brady with better talent and still we beat them. And we not only beat them we go through the toughest roads to get there of any team since Bradshaw's Steelers go against Pastrioni Oiler's, Stabler's Raiders and Landry's Staubach's Cowboys.
Now add a weaker conference and a weaker division. Folks are going to argue that BB has won more games, sure he's got Buffalo , Miami and the JETS for six games a year. Then he's got the weaker conference too, then add i the better QB, he should have more wins.
I see Peyton with one ring,I see Rogers and Brees with one ring. They are better QB's than Eli and Eli has two rings or twice what they have. How can that be anything but the consequence of great coaching.?
When you look underneath the glitz of Bill, when you consider all the factors I think a real case can be made that TC is the best coach of his time.
With one caveat: you have to measure coaches as relative to their time. We are never going to see the kind of dominance that Lombardi achieved, there are many reasons for that not the least of which is the competitive nature of the modern game, the strength of schedule, the value of the draft, and the evolution of the sport that means that all the new things have been done and in a similiar manner the sypmphony orchestra reached it's peak with Beethovan and hasn't had dramatic improvements for 150 years.
Little noted but a great factor mitigating against long term dominance too is the injury bug. I can still name the 22 starters for the NYGteam of the fifties, the team that started the season finished the season and , in fact, lasted for a decade. Injuries are so high in the modern game that luck plays a huge factor and makes it darn near impossible to dominate like the old teams might have. And now the road to the playooffs is longer, that gives luck a bigger role too, one bounce, one super hot player, one call and more opportunities for those factors.
OK, you wanna disagree, you can't disagree by too much and the bottom line is this: We have been blessed. We have seen wildly exciting years, we have seen great triumphs in the most exciting superbowls of all time. There is no team that has had it as good as us, I wish the naysayers would put their shrill criticisms in context and understand how grand this trip has been and continues to be.
Tom is a hall of fame coach, and I believe his teams (for the Giants at least) have a winning record H2H against Belichick, but overall Belichick is a better coach.
Despite the 2 SB's our teams are wildly inconsistent and have too many games where we simply don't show up. Also, there are quite a few one and done playoffs as well.
Coughlin also never had to deal with the turnover that Belichick had with regarding all of the coordinators who left to coach elsewhere-- Weiss, Crennell, McDaniels, to name a few.
He also won 10 games with a backup quarterback.
He accepts blame for the losses and dishes out credits for the wins. He holds himself just as accountable (actually more) as he tries to hold the players to their responsibilities. He garners the respect of fellow coaches, fans, media, and those who have played for him.
I can go on and on about TC but I also rate him so high because of the man TC is off the field, a wonderful family man, a very patriotic patriot, and a man with excellent morals and convictions. But on or off the field, TC is TC. There is nothing phony about him and he stands behind all his ideals. Clearly it will be a sad day for NYG when he retires.
They answered the allegations so much, that there wasn't a fan base in the league outside of New England that didn't have the majority of their fans pulling for the Giants in Super Bowl 42. Something that has never happened.
That's how hated the Pats had become over the spygate stuff & a ton of jealousy over the 3 titles they had already won.
Not to mention that the season they missed the playoffs, they were 11-5 with Matt Cassel at QB. I love TC, but BB has made some very impressive runs with teams that were not loaded with talent, last season being a prime example. On the other hand, the OP is right, that the Giants have always faced a much more challenging schedule than the Patriots, but the consistency with which the Patriots win 10-14 games is impressive regardless of schedule. They have had one season of less than 10 wins since Brady/BB were together, dating back to 2001. TC"s Giants have been the dominant team in football one year, 2008, while BB's Patriots have habitually been the dominant team in football several years.
There is not much of a debate here. TC is great. His body of work in Jacksonville and NY is truly remarkable and Hall of Fame worthy. But what BB has done in his time in NE is one of the great coaching jobs ever seen in this league.
Could BB have come to NY , found Eli in his bunting clothes on his doorstep and done as well...I don't think so.
But my greater point really was speaking against all the negativity and criticism of this Giant organization and to remind every one of how good we have it. Above that, I wouldn't trade those historic superbowls and the runs that attended them for all the taineted wins that NE has and ask an Eagle fan what it's like to win regular season games and not have a superbowl
Could BB have come to NY , found Eli in his bunting clothes on his doorstep and done as well...I don't think so.
TC was part of the process of selecting Eli.
It's not like he was just saddled with him and it's also not like it's not debatable about whether he would have been a better QB (even if it didn't lead to two SB rings) if he had gone elsewhere himself.
but i'm sorry, he's not as good a coach as Belicheck by pretty much any measure.
Could BB have come to NY , found Eli in his bunting clothes on his doorstep and done as well...I don't think so.
But my greater point really was speaking against all the negativity and criticism of this Giant organization and to remind every one of how good we have it. Above that, I wouldn't trade those historic superbowls and the runs that attended them for all the taineted wins that NE has and ask an Eagle fan what it's like to win regular season games and not have a superbowl
Some of Coughlin's own peers believe his system has held back Eli and talent on his team. The said isn't said of BB, so no for me.
The consistency - and his efforts this year may be his best coaching yet.
The only other coaches ever who compare would be Walsh, Parcells and Lombardi... and I'm not sure about Parcells.
BTW H2H shouldn't be the reason why one is better than the other..Its too small a sample size...
BTW H2H shouldn't be the reason why one is better than the other..Its too small a sample size...
Belichick won a Super bowl his second year in New England.
Bledsoe started 1 full season before Brady replaced him.,
And since that year Bledsoe started, Belichick's teams have never won fewer than 9 games.
I think most agree Coughlin is a hall-of-fame coach, but Belichick is legendary.
It's not a knock on Coughlin in the least (IMO).
I meant 9 wins or more....
So it's a chicken or egg thing.
And do the groundwork, the NFC East over the same period is probably only marginally better as a conference than the AFC East, if it is even better.
So it's a chicken or egg thing.
And do the groundwork, the NFC East over the same period is probably only marginally better as a conference than the AFC East, if it is even better.
You are right. NFCE is only marginally better but that still does leave the other points like his record from over a 100 games without Tom Brady being well below .500...Thats a huge sample size you cannot hide or have any valid point for...
In 7 seasons without Brady... BB has only made the playoffs once... Once..missing playoffs 4 out of the last 5 is still better than that.. Don't get me wrong BB is good... better than TC but its not like TC is tier 3 and BB is in a league with Lombardi...
So it's a chicken or egg thing.
And do the groundwork, the NFC East over the same period is probably only marginally better as a conference than the AFC East, if it is even better.
Also, from 2003-2012, the Pats had an 81.67% winning percentage against the division and 77% against the rest of the NFL. Ignoring the games against the Pats, the rest of the AFC East is close to .500. People making the SoS argument are ignoring facts.
In 1991, in his first year of coaching after winning 2 SB rings as the great defensive coordinator of the Giants, he took over a 3-13 Browns team that has a point differential of -234.
1990 Browns: 3-13, -234
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1991 Browns: 6-10, -5
1992 Browns: 7-9, -3
1993 Browns: 7-9, -3
1994 Browns: 11-5, +136
1995 Browns: 5-11, -67 (started 3-1, Modell announced in November that team was moving to Baltimore. Belichick fired after the season )
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1996 Browns: 2-14, -220
1997 Browns: 3-13 ,-258
Criticizing Belichick for only making the playoffs once during that five year stretch while trying to win for a pitiful franchise like Cleveland is asinine.
In 1991, in his first year of coaching after winning 2 SB rings as the great defensive coordinator of the Giants, he took over a 3-13 Browns team that has a point differential of -234.
1990 Browns: 3-13, -234
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1991 Browns: 6-10, -5
1992 Browns: 7-9, -3
1993 Browns: 7-9, -3
1994 Browns: 11-5, +136
1995 Browns: 5-11, -67 (started 3-1, Modell announced in November that team was moving to Baltimore. Belichick fired after the season )
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1996 Browns: 2-14, -220
1997 Browns: 3-13 ,-258
Criticizing Belichick for only making the playoffs once during that five year stretch while trying to win for a pitiful franchise like Cleveland is asinine.
TC has a much better resume with the Jags than BB does with Browns... BTW that Browns franchise that you talk about won 2 superbowls since BB left... Don't mistake that browns franchise with the current browns franchise.
I am greediefor more - but when you compare that to everything else
: )
In 1991, in his first year of coaching after winning 2 SB rings as the great defensive coordinator of the Giants, he took over a 3-13 Browns team that has a point differential of -234.
1990 Browns: 3-13, -234
-------------------------
1991 Browns: 6-10, -5
1992 Browns: 7-9, -3
1993 Browns: 7-9, -3
1994 Browns: 11-5, +136
1995 Browns: 5-11, -67 (started 3-1, Modell announced in November that team was moving to Baltimore. Belichick fired after the season )
----------------------
1996 Browns: 2-14, -220
1997 Browns: 3-13 ,-258
Criticizing Belichick for only making the playoffs once during that five year stretch while trying to win for a pitiful franchise like Cleveland is asinine.
Also nice of you to look at only single year prior to BB this was the Browns Franchise for a few years prior to BB. I won't it Pitiful...
1990 NFL Cleveland Browns 3 13 -234
1989 NFL Cleveland Browns* 9 6 80
1988 NFL Cleveland Browns* 10 6 16
1987 NFL Cleveland Browns* 10 5 151
1986 NFL Cleveland Browns* 12 4 81
1985 NFL Cleveland Browns* 8 8 -7
IF we are only looking at 1 year prior to BB then the year prior to TC the giants were also pitiful @ 4-12 and 31st worst points differential in the NFL (-144)...
So whats the excuse for those 7 bad seasons? Also there are 2 seasons with the Patriots included in those 7... Again I am not saying BB is bad but he isn't much better than TC...
Be happy with TC as our coach, as you would be with a good and loyal spouse who isn't Miss America or Superman.
You can twist it however you want but the idea that Coughlin is a better coach than Belichick is rooted in nothing more than embarrassing homer behavior that objective Giants fans hope fans of other teams don't see so as to tie us to such ridiculous comments.
Coughlin's resume speaks for itself and I do disagree with those who think it is laughable to compare him to Belichick.
Also, I disagree with the idea that the fact that Coughlin has Eli instead of some other QB supports his claim as the best coach. As if TC just carried Eli and coached this excellent Giants era of football despite Eli. If you asked Coughlin I would bet that he knows he is very lucky to have Eli as his QB and that there would have been no super bowls without him.
That said, if TC is at the helm for one more super bowl run, he most certainly is the best coach of this era.
Coughlin's resume speaks for itself and I do disagree with those who think it is laughable to compare him to Belichick.
Also, I disagree with the idea that the fact that Coughlin has Eli instead of some other QB supports his claim as the best coach. As if TC just carried Eli and coached this excellent Giants era of football despite Eli. If you asked Coughlin I would bet that he knows he is very lucky to have Eli as his QB and that there would have been no super bowls without him.
That said, if TC is at the helm for one more super bowl run, he most certainly is the best coach of this era.
I don't mean to degrade Eli either... he is great but the difference between Eli and TB is slightly more than BB and TC... I'll still take Eli and our 2 SB runs over anything TB has done...since 2005... Just can't stand it when Media and most fans chose to forget that BB only has little more success than TC and that could be attributed to the fact that he has TB and TC had to work with Brunell..
87-73? Only two seasons out of ten, where he won a playoff game?
Missing the playoffs 4 of the last 5 seasons?
There is a lack of consistency in his Giant teams....
He is a fine coach....2 SB wins is not a lock for the HOF.....If he wins another, yes....he has a chance for the HOF, if his Giant teams can put up some good numbers the next few years....