BBKOL: DT Aaron Donald discussion

sound like a "can't miss" prospect. It would not hurt my feelings to have this kid in Giant blue.

get ready for incoming "all these Donald harpies are making me sick" posts.

I'll have to listen to this later but I'll say what I've been saying....if he's available (which I doubt at this point), the Giants should run to the podium as this guy makes the most sense to me hands down. I get the Oline arguments and the skill position arguments but they can find suitable Olineman/skill player later.....they absolutely can not find a player like Donald later, especially one that happens to fill a need along the Dline.

is not a sexy position but I'm warming up to the pick. The Giants would have 3 young prospects in Moore, Hankins and Donald to move forward with.

....keep Eli off his back?

What a simplistic thought. Foolish thinking. Pathetic contribution.

Beatty, Schwartz, Walton, Snee, and Pugh are supposed to do that.

he makes Donald sound like a cant miss ready to play prospect but yet he says if the vikings take him at 8 it would be a reach

In comment 11611122 jtduke said:

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he makes Donald sound like a cant miss ready to play prospect but yet he says if the vikings take him at 8 it would be a reach

Reach perhaps in the sense that in this uber loaded draft there is some absolute blue chippers at the top that will be there at 8 that would make Donald even with all his production not be BPA. There are guys without the slight size question mark that are projected to be dominant players up at 10 and higher picks.

In comment 11611107 Curtis in VA said:

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Beatty, Schwartz, Walton, Snee, and Pugh are supposed to do that.

Yup and if we don't think are line is fully fortified yet ,we can get a damn good one at 43, if we go Donald round 1.

Colin described Donald as the boom or bust player of the draft. He said he could be something special or find that he cant handle much larger interior linemen than he is used to playing. After some spotty draft performances, do you think that Reese will go for a boom or bust player?

I've had the same feeling.
Swing for greatness = Donald
Play it safe = Martin

No TE and 1 RB on the roster and OL would help as well if Lewan falls to us he will be the pick.

In comment 11611200 Samiam said:

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Colin described Donald as the boom or bust player of the draft. He said he could be something special or find that he cant handle much larger interior linemen than he is used to playing. After some spotty draft performances, do you think that Reese will go for a boom or bust player?

Donald has played some good lineman and has dominated many of them. The inidicators are there that his talent WILL translate bigtime to the next level.

if at 12, evans, donald and martin are all still on the board.

and i think they could be if a few desperate teams line up for "franchise" QBs.

(and indulge me for a second for ignoring ebron or lewan - both of whom i think by then will be acknowledged as overrated)

each of the three above is mega talented and would be great choices independently. but a choice for any of them would mean the giants would be pursuing one of three separate strategies: focus the next year on having an explosive receiving core, a disruptive defense or concentrate on protecting eli.

certainly there are lots of other draft picks that could plug a hole here or there. and the draft is deeper than usual. but the 1 sends a pretty powerful signal.

and as of today, i honestly have no idea which way they'd go.

To the interview, even the guy that watched him and loved him all season with the Panthers says he should slot in the draft at about 25, yet we have some here who want to act like he would be a steal at 12, he is not, nor is he a sure shot prospect, I want to like the guy, but at 12 I am very nervous about him. He is small, and NOBODY can be certain his talent will translate to the NFL, NOBODY. Martin from Notre Dame handled him one on one. If we are thinking about Donald, then trade down, if he is gone, somebody else will be there that is worth it, otherwise you must look at Martin, Ebron, Lewan, and Evans as much better value at 12, and one of them will be there.

In comment 11611341 PaulN said:

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To the interview, even the guy that watched him and loved him all season with the Panthers says he should slot in the draft at about 25, yet we have some here who want to act like he would be a steal at 12, he is not, nor is he a sure shot prospect, I want to like the guy, but at 12 I am very nervous about him. He is small, and NOBODY can be certain his talent will translate to the NFL, NOBODY. Martin from Notre Dame handled him one on one. If we are thinking about Donald, then trade down, if he is gone, somebody else will be there that is worth it, otherwise you must look at Martin, Ebron, Lewan, and Evans as much better value at 12, and one of them will be there.

You can cherry pick any great talent. When the sample size is large enough, there will be a games here and there where they don't dominate every snap. No player now matter how great dominates every snap. it's the frequency that they dominate. And at DT the frequency at which Donald dominated (and also versus guys who project to be good NFl players) was at a very,very high level.

So the prospect has the talent to either:

1. Dominate the NFL
2. Get his ass kicked

Is that it? There is no other way for him to perform in the NFL?

That's a joke.

In comment 11611378 KWALL said:

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So the prospect has the talent to either: 1. Dominate the NFL 2. Get his ass kicked Is that it? There is no other way for him to perform in the NFL? That's a joke.

if Donald showed on tape that he got frequently engulfed or shut down vs better Olinemen I'd be concerned.

He dominated them with a high enough frequency that it is pretty clear (at least to me) he's is going to do very well in the NFL.At 6' 5/8 and 285..that is very stout for that height. He is a bull with cat like quickness. His quickness,shoirt area burst will more than make up for his lack of height.

Not one NFL guard, you want to think he is the pick go ahead, but I doubt, and highly doubt he will be, only in a trade down, once he is not a Giant, I have no interest in him. He is the BBI darling this year, there have been plenty, and MANY of them have been BUSTS. The reason, THERE IS NO GUARENTEE, but when you are picking at 12, you better not miss, and for that reason, I would not be so certain about this guy, he simply is too small for there to be any certainty with him. He may get dominated on this level, we just don't know. I am OK trading down and seeing how that plays out and then possibly picking Donald, but even his supporters are not willing to say he is an upper first round talent, so what does that tell you? It tells me to beware.

Do not work in the NFL, he has won most battles in the NFL with that first move, that will not work up here. He does have a low center of gravity, and that may help him a lot, but NOTHING in any tape proves ANYTHING at all. It proved he can dominate at his level he was playing, nothing more then that. When trying to figure out if it translates, size would be a huge factor, quickness also, he wins on one, and loses on another. I think the low center of gravity helps to offset his size though. I like him, but I am not so sure I like him at 12.

Is a great way to cover your ass, we heard it with JPP also, it is nothing more then a copout.

In comment 11611492 PaulN said:

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Do not work in the NFL, he has won most battles in the NFL with that first move, that will not work up here. He does have a low center of gravity, and that may help him a lot, but NOTHING in any tape proves ANYTHING at all. It proved he can dominate at his level he was playing, nothing more then that. When trying to figure out if it translates, size would be a huge factor, quickness also, he wins on one, and loses on another. I think the low center of gravity helps to offset his size though. I like him, but I am not so sure I like him at 12.

I think the production is at such an amazing level that you can't ignore it simply becuase he is 6' 5/8 tall. if he wasn't strong or built well, I'd be more concerned.

"The most dominating player I have ever seen"...."he dominated despite the fact that the Pittsburg defense had no one...and the fact that everyone on earth know the had to stop...teams still couldn't stop Donald"...I have never been more confident in a player in my life"...This sounds like an LT evaluation....

of course he hasn't dominated an NFL guard. He hasn't played any yet.

We've seen him have very, very productive games going up against much heavier all-american type players. Going up against top-tier college offensive talent.

From what I've seen, and I've watched all the snaps on him by now, not just the highlights, he hasn't been handled one on one by anybody. I've seen a couple of snaps against an all-american tackle that is likely to be a top draft pick next year where he didn't make much progress. I've also seen him beat that same tackle using power AND speed.

I haven't seen anything that says he can be pushed around regardless of who he's going up against.

He even has held up against the point of attack by >650+ lbs of all-american and all-conference type double-teams and barely given an inch, even if they negated his ability to get pressure.

Nobody has shown me an instance yet of him being dominated or pushed around.

at his size, is a tall order. Donald may just get worn down physically as the game progresses. Very few can pull it off, that makes him a gamble, no matter the hype.

that's the thing. Is he a specialist? Will he be used only in pass rushing, 3rd down situations? Maybe at this level teams will use him as a pass rush and not really rotate him in on 1st and 2nd down. I think that's an interesting thing. How will teams utilize him?

an impact player that teams will have to gameplan for. That's not something that can be said for any of the other guys who might be available for us at 12.

The offensive linemen available at 12 would hopefully allow us to pass block for Eli and open up more holes in the running game, but neither Lewan nor Martin are Orlando Pace/Jonathon Ogden superstars. Were Greg Robinson to fall to 12, he might be that guy eventually, and I'd be content to take him over Donald. But at this point Donald is my guy at 12, and I'm hoping that we can get a good OL in Rd. 2.

And you are foolish and pathetic for not realizing that the foundation of this team has always been the offensive line and that its demise is the number one reason why we are a weak organization at the current moment.

a combination of a top OL that can let us run the ball, along with a top front 7 on defense that stops the run and can rush the QB.

We've lost Tuck and Joseph, haven't added a pass-rushing DE, and are very thin at both DE and DT. Getting a pass rusher from the DT position could make a big difference for our defense, especially as our DEs are becoming neutralized more often by the pistol and short QB drops.

then we shouldnt draft anyone.. because NO ONE in the draft has done ANYTHING against the NFL..

All those OL guys you want drafted havent blocked ONE NFL defensive player..

None of those DB have covered ONE NFL receiver..

No WR has gone against any NFL Corner..

No QB has seen an NFL Defense..

No TE has blocked an NFL Defensive Lineman or gone against an NFL CB/LB or S..

I mean that is truly an absolutely ridiculous argument...

In comment 11611721 yatqb said:

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a combination of a top OL that can let us run the ball, along with a top front 7 on defense that stops the run and can rush the QB. We've lost Tuck and Joseph, haven't added a pass-rushing DE, and are very thin at both DE and DT. Getting a pass rusher from the DT position could make a big difference for our defense, especially as our DEs are becoming neutralized more often by the pistol and short QB drops.

And that's something Dorgan talked about the height of Donald. Quick drops and getting rid of the ball you need taller DTs to get their hands up to knock the ball down. Remember Tom brady and what he said in Mic'd up for the SB?

It's like throwing in a forest.. Their arms are like ::shakes head:: as he sits next to Welker.

I would think our DTs would be taller to knock passes down especially if teams are going quick game to neutralize our pass rush. DT at this point is a luxury. If any of the OL, WR, or TE is available in the first round, at 12, I'd draft them.

We are on the clock so to speak to get this offense very good.

Here when personnel on our offense contract expires

WR

Cruz - 2016
RR- 2015
JJ - 2014
MM - 2014

RB

Wilson -2015

TE

AR-2015

Everyone else 2014



Not to mention Eli's contract expires in 2 years and our coaches contracts are basically 1 year deals. I don't think people realize how urgent we have to be in fixing this offense.

If the offense and then team ends up with a shitty year. Our whole staff can get fired. If that happens, when Elis contract expires he will be 35 years old. No way we'd re-sign him.

So this draft is very important. It's freaking key to fixing this offense as quick as possible.

.

In comment 11611087 Wonderphil11 said:

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get ready for incoming "all these Donald harpies are making me sick" posts. I'll have to listen to this later but I'll say what I've been saying....if he's available (which I doubt at this point), the Giants should run to the podium as this guy makes the most sense to me hands down. I get the Oline arguments and the skill position arguments but they can find suitable Olineman/skill player later.....they absolutely can not find a player like Donald later, especially one that happens to fill a need along the Dline.

Just for the record Donald is the FIRST DT I have ever pined for in the first round for the Giants. Normally I hate DTs in the first due to bust rate and learning curve. Thats how special I think this kid.is.

Lewan/Martin-Schwartz-Walton-Snee-Pugh

With Beatty backing up. That would be a massive improvement

In comment 11611746 AnishPatel said:

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In comment 11611721 yatqb said: Quote: a combination of a top OL that can let us run the ball, along with a top front 7 on defense that stops the run and can rush the QB. We've lost Tuck and Joseph, haven't added a pass-rushing DE, and are very thin at both DE and DT. Getting a pass rusher from the DT position could make a big difference for our defense, especially as our DEs are becoming neutralized more often by the pistol and short QB drops. And that's something Dorgan talked about the height of Donald. Quick drops and getting rid of the ball you need taller DTs to get their hands up to knock the ball down. Remember Tom brady and what he said in Mic'd up for the SB? It's like throwing in a forest.. Their arms are like ::shakes head:: as he sits next to Welker. I would think our DTs would be taller to knock passes down especially if teams are going quick game to neutralize our pass rush. DT at this point is a luxury. If any of the OL, WR, or TE is available in the first round, at 12, I'd draft them. We are on the clock so to speak to get this offense very good. Here when personnel on our offense contract expires WR Cruz - 2016 RR- 2015 JJ - 2014 MM - 2014 RB Wilson -2015 TE AR-2015 Everyone else 2014 Not to mention Eli's contract expires in 2 years and our coaches contracts are basically 1 year deals. I don't think people realize how urgent we have to be in fixing this offense. If the offense and then team ends up with a shitty year. Our whole staff can get fired. If that happens, when Elis contract expires he will be 35 years old. No way we'd re-sign him. So this draft is very important. It's freaking key to fixing this offense as quick as possible.

All good points but when a player is really special you make exceptions. The question is do the Giants view him as special enough to not worry about the height they like so much in their DTs.

All good points but when a player is really special you make exceptions. The question is do the Giants view him as special enough to not worry about the height they like so much in their DTs.


If he is that special he will be long gone. So I wouldn't worry about that.

Also, I wouldn't make any exceptions under the conditions above in the previous post of mine. Too much at stake. Our whole future depends on this. If we fuck this up, like I said we may be in for massive changes. We messed up drafting since Ross came aboard. It's time this FO gets a kick in the ass to rebuild this offense with a sense of urgency never seen before. If not and we fail, then that may impact our future big time.

The fact we didn't extend Eli says a lot. It would seem we are going to play out his contract and let him be 35. He basically has and the offense as a whole, to be fair, as 1 year. In that year, we have to be good. If we suck, TC and the staff gets fired, and Eli goes in the contract year at age 34. I highly doubt we re-sign him.

In the mean time, those are the contract situations for the guys on offense. We are on the edge of massive changes to our offensive personnel AND coaching staff. If things go south big time, then the coaches are in deep shit.

With that said, you go balls out to upgrade the offensive personnel. There is no 2 or 3 year rebuild. It's this upcoming year OR else..A first round DT is a damn luxury at this point. But hey, if he is that special or as you put it, once in a decade then he will be gone. So I guess I don't have to worry.. : )

There have been MANY many guys that get lost in the shuffle so to speak . If you look at draft history their are a ton of guys picked 10-20 that end up better than anyone in the top 10.

I think Donald may 'drop' a bit b/c people will downgrade him due to the height issue (and they will regret it for years to come).

at a premium position that is a still a need like DT, you do it.

Rounds 2-4 can be exclusively offense thereafter.

I love your argument though and it makes sense. The Giants could easily be thinking more along your line of though than mine. I just think Aaron is a very special talent that will be clear BPA when we pick . And if that is the case , it should alter our 'Plan A' strategy just a bit.

Do better than that, Reese..

I believe we are on that edge of change. A bad season or longer years in rebuilding can push us over that edge where change occurs in a big time fashion.

I wouldn't restructure or extend Eli and I am glad we haven't touched it either. Let the life of the contract play through and let's see where Eli and the whole offense is. We could have a bad year and change everything.

Donald very may be gone. I doubt he stays on the board to be honest. I think it's our duty to add personnel to surround Eli. That would be piss poor if we let our offense atrophy. RR is a 2015 contract, and everyone else is on a contract year. Just look...Our contracts are set up for major change. Right now he seems like everyone, including the coaching staff, is on a wait and see if the ship sinks or gets moving again.

That's why this is the most exciting off season in a long time.

with Donald is I don't think he's a good fit for our defense. We're not an penetrating attacking defense. We're more about gap control. Donald's strength is to simply not worry about a gap and attack the pocket. The sound of that excites the average sports fan, but you have to draft players that fit your scheme.

In comment 11611946 Eric from BBI said:

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with Donald is I don't think he's a good fit for our defense. We're not an penetrating attacking defense. We're more about gap control. Donald's strength is to simply not worry about a gap and attack the pocket. The sound of that excites the average sports fan, but you have to draft players that fit your scheme.

True however shouldnt a good coach also adapt the scheme to fit the players he has available.. I dont think the Giants will draft Donald.. they have to many offensive issues to address.. OL, WR, TE and even RB..

Make your scheme fit your players..

#simplify

Change your entire scheme because of one player? Maybe if he was Lawrence Taylor.

Defenses that don't worry about gap control can look great on highlight films, but get gouged the rest of the game.

Donald intrigues me because he is so damn quick (like Randle who used to play for the Vikings who was also a smaller guy). But man, if he doesn't beat his man with quickness, he's going to get steamrolled.

then he can get after it.

Are we that unsure of the middle?

on Fewell can adapt to a player like Donald. Plus I wouldn't worry about our staff. Everyone is on a 1 year deal basically. It's not like Fewell is a long term DC here. If shit hits the fan, the staff will be fired..all of them. I have to think if we did draft Donald, that they'd do stuff to make him useful.

In comment 11611968 Eric from BBI said:

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Change your entire scheme because of one player? Maybe if he was Lawrence Taylor. Defenses that don't worry about gap control can look great on highlight films, but get gouged the rest of the game. Donald intrigues me because he is so damn quick (like Randle who used to play for the Vikings who was also a smaller guy). But man, if he doesn't beat his man with quickness, he's going to get steamrolled.

I won't say that Donald won't get pushed back by bigger ol's, but he's pretty strong (2nd at his position in the combine with 35 reps at 225) and a lower center of gravity might help. Also, he doesn't look like he's being pushed around much on tape.

Defenses won't change their schemes for him, but they will have to account for him.

Donald is part of the middle.

Everyone has to be on the same page on defense. You just can't freelance or you are going to leave a huge hole.

Now that said, if Donald is another John Randle, then it is very tempting to team him with Johnathan Hankins.

I wouldn't call this a boom-or-bust type of pick but it certainly is a bit risky. There are not a lot of 285 pound all-star defensive tackles.

I read or heard an interview that Donald has been seriously lifting since he was 13.. that means he should be pretty darn strong.. people tend to focus on his quickness... but he is really strong and he uses his hands really really well..

I think people also need to realize that there was NO ONE but him on the Pitt DL.. teams schemed to stop him. and couldnt...

but that being said... I think the Giants are going OL or WR in round one..

also, if the Giants draft him, it means they are breaking with long established historical tendencies. Since 1979, the Giants have been a size team. They tend to really discount guys who do meet their size preferences (right or wrong).

The last time they did that that I can remember...they really got burned...Greg Mark from Miami.

They have to be on the same page, but a lot of those pages include freeing up your pass rushers to get after it..

Can this dude take care of business when his page isn't called? Can he deliver when it is?

His size doesn't answer those questions for me, his play would..

He was nowhere near the dominant force of Donald.

push Donald back off the line at all. More importantly, he controls all the offensive linemen that try to block him one on one. All of them.

He does all the things that a defensive lineman should do. He can penetrate. He can hold his position at the point of attack. He can shed blockers when he wants to. I have seen him hold the point of attack and toss the blocker aside like a ragdoll.

Those who say he relies on his quick first step have not watched him closely. They don't know that he wins his battles every single time, no matter how big his opponents are.

The only times he can be stopped is when there are two linemen on him, and even then he regularly can hold his point and separate from his blockers when he needs to. He really doesn't get pushed back.

The thing about Donald is that he seems to intuitively understand how to use his strength and leverage to win battles at the line of scrimmage. This isn't a kid who has just been coached well. Read what's written about him then watch his snaps - he has exceptional technique of all the moves. This isn't because he's been coached so well. Heck, if it were that easy to coach a kid there would be plenty who could do what he does.

It's because he is a playmaker from the inside of the defensive line. He knows how to make plays, and has the body to do it.

I think this kid absolutely kills the pistol/read option offense. He's too close to the mesh point for QB's to delay handoffs and read the defensive end. He'll penetrate too quickly and blow those kinds of plays up.

Don't believe me. Watch his video yourself and tell me where you see him getting beat, or not being able to handle his man, or being too small for his position.

The idea that his size will hurt him is speculation - no one's got any documentation to back that up.

Is how it relates to power. If he was 20 pounds heavier would it make him stronger or more stout. He is a powerful man. As powerful as just about anyone in the draft. He is almost as heavy but 4 or 5 inches shorter and no fat. He is a beast.

I rarely hope the Giants draft this guy or that and simply assume they know 10x more then me....but I want this guy. He jumps off the screen at you.

He has dominated everywhere including the senior bowl. Can he play DE too. He already has great rechnique and hands....I think he dominates

6'2' Warren Sapp when he was drafted weighed 284lb less then Donald...and a year or two later...Sapp was playing at 305..,

N Suh came in at 307lbs benched less the Donald at the combine and ran a 5.05 forty...not much difference between 6'4' 307 and 6 5/8 285...when the smaller player happens to be much stronger, quicker, faster...secondly nothing in his tape justifies the speculation on this board regarding size...he was the only player on the Pitt defense...despite the attention and consistent double and triple teams...he still beat people consistently

In comment 11611988 Eric from BBI said:

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also, if the Giants draft him, it means they are breaking with long established historical tendencies. Since 1979, the Giants have been a size team. They tend to really discount guys who do meet their size preferences (right or wrong). The last time they did that that I can remember...they really got burned...Greg Mark from Miami.

Eric; Makes good points and TC has often talked about big men "making you competitive" on the lines. Gittleman followed his advice last year in Carolina and look at the results with that defense. We lost a big man DT in Joseph and had a smaller faster bust in Austin. What about Louis Nix , ND, big space eater who will disrupt with up the middle pressure, handle the double team and stop the run. Similar to Joseph. Hankins has some pass rush ability to do the same. Our defense last year was good and will only get better with our FA activity this year. Lets keep what works.

RE: his weight at 288 or 290. First, In think he'll put on a few more pounds and play near that 295 weight. Two words - body type. Yeah, a lot of tackles are 310 but at 6'3 or 6'5 they are stretching that weight over a longer frame. Canty was 315 but stretched it out over a 6'6" frame. With the taller DTs you have to concern yourself with them playing too high or leverage. So, to simply point at a weight and say someone is too small is an incomplete analysis. He's a very quick and agile fireplug - I don't see that as a negative in a DT.

RE: What makes people think he could not maintain gap control? He is very strong, has very good hands, and gets off blocks. He can play the run and it's a passing league, so, I see his quickness and motor as an asset. You get tackles for losses and disrupt the passing game by penetrating. And, he is strong enough and has good enough leverage where he will not get pushed around like a lot of people seem to think. And, with his fast feet, great hands, and motor - he does not seem to struggle getting off blocks.

Look at his production and that is despite being double teamed a lot. Hankins and Donald might very well give the Giants two DTs who have to be double teamed. I keep watching his game tapes against quality OLines (e.g., Notre Dame) and he is a force to be reckoned with.

You bring in Hankins in better shape this year and team him with Donald - you have the core a special DT tandem, IMO.

Of course, Giants' FO may not have the same thoughts re: Donald. And, Donald may not be there.

you ca be sure they'll be facing him twice a year. He won't get by Dallas

...

In comment 11611946 Eric from BBI said:

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with Donald is I don't think he's a good fit for our defense.

Interesting perspective Eric. Here's what Sy said in his comments linked below:

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I think he ends up top 15 Sy'56 : 9:35 am : link : reply Simply because he can fit in to any defensive scheme. Thats not the case for some DTs and DEs.

Posted this morning. - ( New Window )

if you believe he can translate his game as is to the next level he's a no brainer top 10 pick. If you don't he's a 15-25 type pick.

Some smaller guys profile as impact players ala Geno Atkins and John Randle...most don't.

I don't believe in remote thrower picks. It's a childish practice based on thinking you know more than NFL evaluators. The Giants are the pros and once we select a guy I'm all about his success for our team. Donald has a fantastic college resume. That said I'd prefer to focus on the more traditional Giants impact positions of WR/OT/DE for the #12 pick. There will be worthy candidates available.

In comment 11611100 Emlen'sGremlins said:

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....keep Eli off his back?

By not going to another team that we have to play.

is that Reese mentioned getting burned by taking chances or gambling on a few players. If they don't see him as a sure thing - may very well avoid taking a risk, especially in Round 1.

But, the more I think about it, the more I think it's going to be Martin.

In comment 11612040 PA Giant Fan said:

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Is how it relates to power. If he was 20 pounds heavier would it make him stronger or more stout. He is a powerful man. As powerful as just about anyone in the draft. He is almost as heavy but 4 or 5 inches shorter and no fat. He is a beast. I rarely hope the Giants draft this guy or that and simply assume they know 10x more then me....but I want this guy. He jumps off the screen at you. He has dominated everywhere including the senior bowl. Can he play DE too. He already has great rechnique and hands....I think he dominates

Nicely said. He totally jumps off the screen at you and opposed to Clowney this kid lives and breathes football and is a non stop tremendous competitor. In fact Id be willing to bet this kid has a better overall cateer than Clowney.

pick in reality aside from 5-15 spots? Any team picking someone in Round 1 presumes that the player they choose is going to be an impact player for them. If Donald is a top 25 pick he's a worthy selection, particularly if you have guys in tiers and are selecting based upon need within those tiers.

In this draft it seems to me that the top talent goes by about 10-12, and those from 12-20 or so are pretty similar in talent. I happen to think that Donald is a top 10 talent but might drop to us if 3 QBs go early. Just one man's opinion.

so we don't have to always think about if we right or not to pass on him, if we do

I still have yet to even listen to yesterday's podcast. I'm so far behind with school and work and texting Beth while watching Law and Order. The reason I ask, is because Schmeelk is Ebron and 100% offense. Ugh, I hate these kind of discussions (kinda) because it's all just speculation and discussion. If they take him? They do. IF not, Another team gets him. First round pick HAS to be OFFENSE. You really want a sequel in loserville??

but the Giants offense wasnt just bad.. it wa ATROCIOUS... it was one of the WORST offensive performances I have EVER seen from a Giants team.. Im talking Tommy Maddox bad here..

if the Giants take a player like Donald in round one.. it pushes the offense down a round.. The Giants need to serious draft offense 1,2,3.. and the targets should be some order of TE, WR and OL..

In comment 11613672 Blue Blood said:

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but the Giants offense wasnt just bad.. it wa ATROCIOUS... it was one of the WORST offensive performances I have EVER seen from a Giants team.. Im talking Tommy Maddox bad here.. if the Giants take a player like Donald in round one.. it pushes the offense down a round.. The Giants need to serious draft offense 1,2,3.. and the targets should be some order of TE, WR and OL..

ALOT of Good offense can still be had post round 1:

Rd. 1 Donald
Rd. 2 Jordan Matthews/Joel Bitinio/Kuandijo/Jackson/Yankey
Rd 3. Martavius Bryant/Allen Robinson/Trai Turner/Dakota Dozier/Juwan James/Jake Mewhort
Rd 4. Crocket Gilmore/Arthur Lynch

two things that I would like to add to this discussion is the following opinions.

First, I feel that if the Giants drafted Aaron Donald, he would see time on the field at DT and DE in the same manner that Cullen Jenkins does.

Second, regarding NFL double-teams when he is at DT, Aaron is a three-technique type of DT so he will face a double-team less often than the one-technique or nose-guard DT. And yes, teams do switch up and double-team the three-technique DT in the run game but that usually leaves a DE one on one with a tight-end. Now most tight-ends in the league are better blockers than the ones the Giants had last year but that still should be an advantage for the team. Also I'm sure this something I'm sure he has already faced and is familiar with.

P.S. I'm not comfortable with giving opinions about the breakdown of gap responsibilities for three-technique DT's but I assume it will include a lot of line calls where there is only a one-gap role which Aaron should do well in

In comment 11613701 Semipro Lineman said:

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two things that I would like to add to this discussion is the following opinions. First, I feel that if the Giants drafted Aaron Donald, he would see time on the field at DT and DE in the same manner that Cullen Jenkins does. Second, regarding NFL double-teams when he is at DT, Aaron is a three-technique type of DT so he will face a double-team less often than the one-technique or nose-guard DT. And yes, teams do switch up and double-team the three-technique DT in the run game but that usually leaves a DE one on one with a tight-end. Now most tight-ends in the league are better blockers than the ones the Giants had last year but that still should be an advantage for the team. Also I'm sure this something I'm sure he has already faced and is familiar with. P.S. I'm not comfortable with giving opinions about the breakdown of gap responsibilities for three-technique DT's but I assume it will include a lot of line calls where there is only a one-gap role which Aaron should do well in

So are you a proponent for drafting Donald semi-pro?

It depends on the opposing OL of the team we face. If its an I pro right I'd double both DTs and chip off to backer like we used to do when our OL wasnt a shit show.

Then follow up with a FB. If the center is good and take on our 1T I may even pull the LG assuming 3T is B gap shaded on the RG.

So there are to s of options.

In comment 11611693 TMS said:

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at his size, is a tall order. Donald may just get worn down physically as the game progresses. Very few can pull it off, that makes him a gamble, no matter the hype.

This is the kind of awful argument against Donald which helps me to think that if he's there he will be our pick and we will be VERY happy.

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So are you a proponent for drafting Donald semi-pro?

Yes, but it is because I'm a proponent for best available player instead of OMG, the pick has to be best offensive lineman available or Eli is going to die, die, I tell you... Insert the usual matching need and value theory stuff

In comment 11613942 AnishPatel said:

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It depends on the opposing OL of the team we face. If its an I pro right I'd double both DTs and chip off to backer like we used to do when our OL wasnt a shit show. Then follow up with a FB. If the center is good and take on our 1T I may even pull the LG assuming 3T is B gap shaded on the RG. So there are to s of options.

Those are good options and if those play calls are blocked well at the line of scrimmage then in addition to the DT's hopefully not getting flushed downfield, our solid against the run DE's and LB's have to do their jobs when the DT's are soaking up so much attention.

Someone on the play-side in the front seven has to defeat their block or the Defensive Coordinator is going to have to start cheating more DB's into the box. And I hope that someone is a DE more often than not

In comment 11614040 Semipro Lineman said:

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Quote: So are you a proponent for drafting Donald semi-pro? Yes, but it is because I'm a proponent for best available player instead of OMG, the pick has to be best offensive lineman available or Eli is going to die, die, I tell you... Insert the usual matching need and value theory stuff

Agreed. And we can always get an excellent OL (likely a plug and play type) at 43 in this draft if need be.

In comment 11614066 Semipro Lineman said:

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In comment 11613942 AnishPatel said: Quote: It depends on the opposing OL of the team we face. If its an I pro right I'd double both DTs and chip off to backer like we used to do when our OL wasnt a shit show. Then follow up with a FB. If the center is good and take on our 1T I may even pull the LG assuming 3T is B gap shaded on the RG. So there are to s of options. Those are good options and if those play calls are blocked well at the line of scrimmage then in addition to the DT's hopefully not getting flushed downfield, our solid against the run DE's and LB's have to do their jobs when the DT's are soaking up so much attention. Someone on the play-side in the front seven has to defeat their block or the Defensive Coordinator is going to have to start cheating more DB's into the box. And I hope that someone is a DE more often than not

Well that goes for anything in the trenches. You wanted drawn out well and then have your player execute those blocks.

That's how I would play Donald if I am in the meetings helping game plan was my point.

In comment 11614155 AnishPatel said:

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In comment 11614066 Semipro Lineman said: Quote: In comment 11613942 AnishPatel said: Quote: It depends on the opposing OL of the team we face. If its an I pro right I'd double both DTs and chip off to backer like we used to do when our OL wasnt a shit show. Then follow up with a FB. If the center is good and take on our 1T I may even pull the LG assuming 3T is B gap shaded on the RG. So there are to s of options. Those are good options and if those play calls are blocked well at the line of scrimmage then in addition to the DT's hopefully not getting flushed downfield, our solid against the run DE's and LB's have to do their jobs when the DT's are soaking up so much attention. Someone on the play-side in the front seven has to defeat their block or the Defensive Coordinator is going to have to start cheating more DB's into the box. And I hope that someone is a DE more often than not Well that goes for anything in the trenches. You wanted drawn out well and then have your player execute those blocks. That's how I would play Donald if I am in the meetings helping game plan was my point.

If teams were forced to account for him like that. It would be a huge victory for the defense especially one that has other good players on the DL. it will also restrict flexibility/options of what the offense can do.

I can still run my concepts just fine with what I want to accomplish. If I want to run the stuff we run like ISO, LEAD, power, power G, I could. Well, not with our shitty ass offensive personnel, but a normal to above that team could do that with their OL.

win their battles with the guy(s) across from them.

In Donald's case, he routinely beat double teams in college, and didn't give ground in the running game even with two guys working against him.

He has as fast a "get-off" (that first step AND the reflexes to move just as the ball is being snapped) as I've ever seen in a DT. Often he's by the two guys assigned to block him before they've even gotten out of their stances. I also can't remember a DT as quick as him who also had his strength.

I'm sold on his ability to be an impact player from day one. Indeed I'm wondering if he'll be there for us at 12, as I'm guessing that he'll rise rapidly as the draft approaches.

In comment 11614295 yatqb said:

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win their battles with the guy(s) across from them. In Donald's case, he routinely beat double teams in college, and didn't give ground in the running game even with two guys working against him. He has as fast a "get-off" (that first step AND the reflexes to move just as the ball is being snapped) as I've ever seen in a DT. Often he's by the two guys assigned to block him before they've even gotten out of their stances. I also can't remember a DT as quick as him who also had his strength. I'm sold on his ability to be an impact player from day one. Indeed I'm wondering if he'll be there for us at 12, as I'm guessing that he'll rise rapidly as the draft approaches.

That's college playing for freaking the amazing powerhouse of Pitt. He did have a good Senior Bowl. So now scouts will have to project that to the NFL and see how he will do against NFL guards and tackles. I am not sold on that at all. I am still questioning his use at the NFL level. Is he a pass rushing specialist who will come in on 3rd down? Can he play on 1st and 2nd down and mix it up consistently at this level?

I can see them blocking him and he being a liability at this level in the running game.

Like I told GD, we have other important needs, mainly on offense. We need to show a sense of urgency because our offense needs to be a 1 year build. The coaches have a 1 year contract basically. Eli has a 2 year one. We need to do this shit now.

forget Donald for a second, is there a defensive player you would be OK picking in Rd 1? It sounds like you're saying it should be offense, period. Can't the Giants fix the offense in later rounds?

I'd go offense, but there are two guys I like. I do like Gilbert, and Mosley at LB the more I see videos on him. Now would I draft them if offensive personnel is available? No, but two guys I do like if all the other guys are gone.

Why would you pass on offense if a good player is there round 1? This year is unlike any year because of the close to expiring contracts of the coaching staff and a lot of the offensive personnel. The sense of urgency is the greatest this year. The way our draft classes have gone downhill, I want them to fix this offense and show a sense of urgency here.

I would pass on the offensive player because it would be easier to find a very good offensive player in later rounds than it would a very good pass rusher and I think the pass rush is just as critical to this defense....just as many questions as the Oline or WR, IMO.

In comment 11614384 Wonderphil11 said:

You have a blue chip offensive prospect available. I am not passing on him just because we can get guys later. Ross has been fucking up our drafts since he got here. Do you trust that fool in drafting "very good offensive" players in the later rounds?

In fact where are these good offensive players he showed he can draft? Beatty? Beckum? Barden? Brown?Jernigan or Brewer?

We are still waiting on Wilson, RR, Hosley and freaking AR to contribute. That whole damn 2012 draft I am waiting on.

You make it sound like it's that freaking easy, like you're shopping for clothes. We will go to mall, get some shirts and shoes, swing back and get some pants and belts, and we are all set. That easy? Again, based on what? Our amazing freaking drafts we have produced? We will pass on offensive talent and get some later. As if that shit as worked last bunch of years.

Again, no thanks, with Eli have 2 years on his contract and the coaching staff 1 year basically, can we actually show a sense of urgency even if that means going out of our way to staff offensive talent?

In comment 11614335 AnishPatel said:

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In comment 11614295 yatqb said: Quote: Like I told GD, we have other important needs, mainly on offense. We need to show a sense of urgency because our offense needs to be a 1 year build. The coaches have a 1 year contract basically. Eli has a 2 year one. We need to do this shit now.

Where we differ Anish is I think in this draft if we dedicate rounds 2-4 to offense we will still be in good shape while adding a special once-in-a-decade talent in Donald in round 1.

It seems like you are almost hellbent on adding an offensive guy regardless if he is pure BPA or not in round 1.

We will have to wait and see but hopefully like we talked about Donald is drafted before us so we don't have to worry about this.

I think this year is different as such because of the post you commented on prior regarding our offense and the contracts for everyone. We are on the cusp of major change that could result in not re-signing Eli and changing of all our coaches if we fuck up this year.

Moreover, I want a balance of value and need. DT is not a big time need. We can find a perfect marriage offensively this year. Factor in adding to the offense now since Eli only has 2 years left and coaching staff 1, we need to hit and find success NOW. There is no 2 or 3 year plan.

with almost every player still available, if we go offense because we think we need offensive players, thus passing on a guy who's much higher on the board who happens to play defense, then we are not building as strong a team as we possibly can for the future.

is absolutely a big time need Anish. How in the world can you be confident that JPP comes back to his old self or that Moore suddenly becomes Osi in his prime? It's the pass rush I'm talking about, not the position....just so happens that DT is a need, as well.

Blitz! That's our damn issue. We just rely on the front 4. Well, team has changed now. We need to supplement our pass rush by blitzing. If pass rush is a concern then add pressure from other areas.

Maybe the team knows this and that's one of the reasons we went balls out to upgrade the secondary even more. At least the back end of the defense is solid. So maybe we do blitz knowing that the secondary is solid.

In comment 11614471 AnishPatel said:

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We will have to wait and see but hopefully like we talked about Donald is drafted before us so we don't have to worry about this. I think this year is different as such because of the post you commented on prior regarding our offense and the contracts for everyone. We are on the cusp of major change that could result in not re-signing Eli and changing of all our coaches if we fuck up this year. Moreover, I want a balance of value and need. DT is not a big time need. We can find a perfect marriage offensively this year. Factor in adding to the offense now since Eli only has 2 years left and coaching staff 1, we need to hit and find success NOW. There is no 2 or 3 year plan.

I think you detailed the urgency extremely well.

And I was originally in total agreement with you. I wanted one of the top 3-4 OTs, Marquise Lee (who I love more than any WR than Watkins), Ebron, or Evans. But the more I watched Donald, the more I couldn't deny just how much this kid blows up anyone he faces. The 'wow' factor is more consistent with him than almost any prospect in this entire draft from a position which is EXTREMELY hard to dominate at.

So it comes down to that he is likely to be on another tier grade-wise than anyone else when it comes our turn to pick. I can't give that type of value up to go for a higher need position especially when I think I can still get 3 good offensive players in round 2-4 (in this loaded draft).

In comment 11614744 AnishPatel said:

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Blitz! That's our damn issue. We just rely on the front 4. Well, team has changed now. We need to supplement our pass rush by blitzing. If pass rush is a concern then add pressure from other areas. Maybe the team knows this and that's one of the reasons we went balls out to upgrade the secondary even more. At least the back end of the defense is solid. So maybe we do blitz knowing that the secondary is solid.

Anish,

Fewell when he doesn't try to get too cute is a decent but not great DC. However, when it comes to blitz design,timing, and disguise, he is possibly the worst schemer in the entire NFL.

Haha, yeah he sucks at blitz design. Hopefully with Beason there we can do some things. If not, hey the whole coaching staff is on a 1 year deal.

That's why the driving force for our team in the offense. That's the side of the ball that's broken. That's the side of the ball where our HOF, franchise QB is on. Our succeeding or failure will be tied into that side of the ball.

That's the side that needs lots of help. I hope our 1st rounder is an offensive upgrade. This team needs to be successful now. It's a 1 year plan.

In comment 11614794 AnishPatel said:

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Haha, yeah he sucks at blitz design. Hopefully with Beason there we can do some things. If not, hey the whole coaching staff is on a 1 year deal. That's why the driving force for our team in the offense. That's the side of the ball that's broken. That's the side of the ball where our HOF, franchise QB is on. Our succeeding or failure will be tied into that side of the ball. That's the side that needs lots of help. I hope our 1st rounder is an offensive upgrade. This team needs to be successful now. It's a 1 year plan.

Guess what? If i didn't have Donald rated so high I'd be in total agreement with you.

Haha I know that hasn't escaped me. : P

I coveted as much as Aaron Donald. I'll follow his career even if he isn't our pick. I'll think he'll be a terror.

I was the first one who pitched the idea and my mind has not changed since. This individual will be an all-pro if he stays healthy. Can't miss. He is the best pass rushing defensive tackle to come out of the draft in a very long time.